...I spend 15 minutes of my time putting together a great argument, lol, and you completely destroy the "cool" factor by adding another page to the thread with this list. 😛
I'll have to quote myself.
Originally posted by Longinus
Saber wise I'd sayWindu
Yoda
Dooku
Sidious
Obi-Wan
Grievous
By the way, Windu isn't necessarily ahead of either Yoda or Dooku or even Sidious himself in terms of "lightsaber ability" (he's certainly on par with them, though) simply because he defeated Palpatine (even though he's Dooku's superior).
It's Vaapad's mystical properties and the shatterpoint detection that allowed Mace to overcome the Emperor; it works primarily on Sith and other dark side Force users. It negates what advantages they have and allows them to fight on even terms -- Shatterpoint was what finished Sidious off. This is best explained by Sidious being able to slaughter his companions -- hell, he even killed Fisto while sparring with Windu -- and putting Mace (an offensive duelist) on the defensive. As the fight progressed, Mace's Vaapad allowed him to meet Sidious blow-for-blow, and Shatterpoint allowed him to score a legitimate victory.
The same properties would work on Dooku, hence why Windu would logically win in a fight. But those same properties wouldn't work on Yoda or a non-Sith Dooku, since they don't use the dark side of the Force.
In retrospect, Janus, I apologize if I came off as "too harsh". That wasn't my intention and like I told you, I don't want to flame you. But we've been 'round and 'round and 'round with this issue, and I'm barely managing to withhold my patience on it.
You've never given Sidious much credit at all. And it's bugged the shit out of me, since you can do it for almost every other character but him. Hell, you might even give Anakin more credit than Sidious, and I've always wondered why.
I could dish out quote after quote after quote after friggin quote such as: "Yoda could not defeat the most powerful Sith Lord in history" (tNEC); "[The Galactic Emperor] succeeded where all others failed in taming the dark side" (DESB); "the greatest master of evil ever to use Sith power bides his time" (tUVC); "Not that [Dooku] would ever question the power of Darth Sidious. The dark secrets at his command." (DR); "The Sith have waited a millenium for one born with the power to complete their revenge. Darth Sidious is that one." (tUVC); "Even seen through the eyes of the Force itself, Palpatine was an advent horizon. Darkness beyond darkness. A black hole of the Force." (RotS novelization)...
...And you seemingly (I do not want to assume or end up in an insult/flame fest) wouldn't acknowledge a damn one. Now, I could be wrong, but as far as Palpatine is concerned, you've never given him much credit, nor do I think you ever argued objectively for or against him.
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
1. Where was it stated that if Yoda stayed, Palpatine would have killed him(in regards to direct combat, not storm troopers)?
2. Is it worth buying Dark Rendezvous an LOE?
In my opinion DR is the best SW book, because it shows more on Yoda-Dooku relationship, even when he was a young student, more in the past.
But you can get the books for free on line, why bought them, unless your a collector.
I know Yoda is better then Dooku by some margin, i always said that, just not to defeat him easily.
http://www.dmeb2.org/darthmaulsection/swinsider62.html
http://www.dmeb2.org/darthmaulsection/magazine%20images/fightsaber3_lg.jpg
With form 2, Count Dooku can hold his own, even against Master Yoda.
http://www.dmeb2.org/darthmaulsection/magazine%20images/fightsaber10_lg.jpg
Yodas astonishing moves in his epic duel against Count Dooku
It obviously applies to the saber part of the duel and an epic duel, usualy means it was close and dificult. .
How much those this proof count, if its proof at all.
The word "epic" only implies close and difficult; it's literal definition says nothing of the sort:
From Dictionary.com:1. noting or pertaining to a long poetic composition, usually centered upon a hero, in which a series of great achievements or events is narrated in elevated style: Homer's Iliad is an epic poem.
2. resembling or suggesting such poetry: an epic novel on the founding of the country.
3. heroic; majestic; impressively great: the epic events of the war.
4. of unusually great size or extent: a crime wave of epic proportions.
...Yoda's fight with Count Dooku was epic in this regard. Both combatants are highly regarded, and both exhibited immense capability in the Force and in their lightsaber technique. The difference is that Yoda was, as mentioned on numerous occasions, was not fighting to end the Count's life.
I know Yoda is better then Dooku by some margin, i always said that, just not to defeat him easily.
If by "easily" you mean along the lines of how badly Kit Fisto was owned in Revenge of the Sith, then no. But would Yoda defeat him comfortably? All logic and evidence concludes that, yes.
With form 2, Count Dooku can hold his own, even against Master Yoda.
He did hold his own. No one disputed that.
1. Where was it stated that if Yoda stayed, Palpatine would have killed him(in regards to direct combat, not storm troopers)?
...I don't think that it was said that he could. But would Yoda have been killed has he remained? Why, duh. He was lightsaberless, and is at a disadvantage in terms of offensive Force techniques, and - yes - Sidious would eventually have likely called for reinforcements. In which case, Yoda wouldn't have had a chance in hell.
2. Is it worth buying Dark Rendezvous an LOE?
Both Dark Rendezvous and Labyrinth of Evil are excellent books. DR is a rare find because it is an uncompromisingly dark book. It shows a dark side to Yoda, a conflicted side to Dooku, a twisted side to Ventress, and when Sidious features -- instead of just being cold and brilliant -- he's threatening, mocking, and tormenting Dooku. But Count Makashi is right, this book is good just because of Yoda's interaction with Dooku alone.
LoE isn't as dark, but all around, it's a better action story.
I expected this to happen. Escape, excuse me if I don't address every single detail tonight, but it's late and I should really be winding down for the night.
I beg your pardon? Janus, tell me that you aren't quoting Count Dooku himself on the issue, and expect it to hold any water. Dooku -- legendary for hubris and arrogance -- and the exact quote was that he knew the weaknesses of "Ataru and it's ridiculous acrobatics". He obviously has no respect for the form -- despite the fact that it's user made him flee from battle twice; both on Separatist strongholds and one in a planet steeped in the dark side of the Force.
Sidious has a lot to say about Anakin's abilities and powers which everyone gobbles up, but if Dooku says anything he's apparently full of shit? Interesting how that works...
1. You assume that Dooku's statement is false.
2. You say he was forced to retreat by Ataru twice. You gloss over the details and fail to recognize the following: that the first time Dooku took his leave, he realized he could not take the time to defeat Yoda while the Republic was attacking Geonosis. This is called being smart. Even if he defeated Yoda that day, the battle would have been too hard earned, and then Mace or fifty clone troopers would have jumped him and his coup would be over. He's not so arrogant and stupid as to ruin his idealistic plan just to sate his ego. The incident on Vjun was broken off by Dooku because Anakin and Obi-Wan were infiltrating the castle and he would likely not be able to contend with all three when the time came. Again, he acted in prudence. He was not forced down by Yoda's Ataru mastery; nothing ever indicates such. In AotC film, Yoda's saber blitz does nothing to penetrate Dooku's defenses. If anything, Dooku shows the ability to keep up with Yoda unlike anyone else save maybe Sidious. And there's still that nagging suspicion that Yoda disarmed Sidious since the Sith Lord's suddenly missing a saber less than two minutes into their duel.
3. You also gloss over the fact that Dooku's been sparring with Yoda since before Mace Windu was a twinkle in his mother's eye, and his apprentice Qui-Gon was also a master in Ataru. To say he was unfamiliar with its purpose and use is folly. To say he was beaten by it is clearly false. And to assume that he does not know it enough to defeat it is worse. Makashi is the duellist' form, and its expertise is lightsaber fighting, period.
...Your point? General Grievous recognized all seven forms and managed to somewhat duplicate Vaapad (which is proven to be deadlier than Makashi itself). Does that mean he is suddenly able to outduel Mace or Dooku? I should think not, since Obi-Wan readily destroyed him in combat.
Poor comparison. Grievous was not a Force-sensitive combatant, but a hastily trained killing machine who operated best when he either attacked from secrecy or with shock troops supporting him. When he was alone against Jedi, he oftentimes got his just desserts. But if you expect me to believe that Grievous' dabbling in forms somehow compares with Dooku's saber mastery and his experience with other forms, you're sadly mistaken. The two operate nothing alike, and Grievous does not have the expertise, Force capability, and experience the former Jedi does.
No, Janus, he can't contend with him. We've already proven that Yoda has never fought Dooku on terms that he is looking to kill him or to take him out of the fight permenantly.
Actually, this is wrong. Yoda does say in Dark Rendezvous at one point that he loves Dooku enough to know he has to destroy him. And even then, Dooku can contest with him. It's only when Dooku notices that Anakin and Obi-Wan are very close via the holoscreens that he plays his trump card.
And the quote refers to that Mace might be the only one as his equal, not that he is perhaps Mace's equal.
Perhaps you should read it again:
Among the other Jedi, perhaps only Mace Windu would have been his equal on neutral ground[...]
Page 315.
That's a source as valid as anything written about Shatterpoint and Vaapad claiming that on neutral ground, Mace Windu is perhaps his only equal among the Jedi. Reread that sentence at least three times before you reply, please. Shatterpoint and Dark Rendezvous are both C-canon, and the point stands.
Furthermore, Vaapad in and of itself is stated to be the "deadliest form" and given its nature against darksiders, it would be in Mace's favor.
Vaapad is noted as "deadliest of all" by Yoda briefly in his conversation with Palpatine, although he notes also that it is inherently dangerous. Yoda's meaning is a bit ambiguous; he says its a powerful form, but unstable. However, since Yoda's never even practiced Vaapad, I can't exactly call him an expert. Vaapad is noted for its blinding speed and straddling the darkness without succumbing to it and this combined with Mace's shatterpoint makes him perhaps the best Jedi fighter in the Order next to Yoda and Dooku despite his young age.
However, there's nothing to support that Vaapad is better than Makashi overall. I believe that Mace's physical strength plays more to his favor than anything else, really, since he's a damn tank. However, Dooku's level of blade mastery is up there, and c-canon sources that call Vaapad "deadly" also call the creator a potential equal for the only living Makashi master.
So I really don't see where you think Mace can just smash Dooku. It's not like Dooku's going to get kicked on his ass and then be stupid enough to keep frying his own face.
Dooku certainly isn't superior to Mace in bladework.
1. On-screen depiction of his fighting shows otherwise. Movie canon >>>>> c-canon.
2. Even c-canon supports that Dooku is on Mace's level as of DR. Yoda cannot floor him easily, and no fight between them ever comes to conclusion since both battles were broken up beforehand. As for two Magnaguards waylaying Mace, BFD. Supervillains love cannonfodder, but that doesn't mean they can't fight when they need to. You citing that he let his droids distract Mace doesn't take away from his proven abilities; it simply reinforces how much you're willing to grab at to disprove his abilities. You compliment him with one word and slander him with another.
Dooku was tempted by Yoda to return to the light side. I never denied that Dooku didn't reciprocate Yoda's feelings, but the bottom line is that when it came down to a fight, Dooku sought to kill Yoda, whereas Yoda didn't seek to do the same.
This is wrong. Reread the battle. Yoda says he will destroy him shortly after that, out of love for him.
...Am I to assume then, that the disparity between Naga Sadow and Marka Ragnos is likewise very slim? Even though no one wanted to screw with Ragnos on his death-bed, by all means, your logic still applies here. Dooku fears Yoda for a reason. It's an acknowledgement of superiority. The circumstances of the fight itself serve to show how far they are in power.
You seem to be full of poor comparisons lately.
Neither Naga Sadow, nor Ludo Kressh or the others of the Sith High Council so much as raised a blade to Ragnos for his century long reign. He was noted both in narration and by sources as the strongest of the strong in that era, and even before his spirit the two Sith lords bowed. This is in a society where if one can kill the other, he does so, through treachery or through combat.
You are comparing this with Dooku's respect for Yoda on a subconscious level (How he still refers to him as master) and how Dooku thinks about how much Yoda did for him to help him remain humble and how he wanted to save him from himself, and Dooku feared Sidious' jealousy, but he also feared that he was lost and that he could never return. So he struck at Yoda, meaning to kill him, and yet for all his chances, he never did. Even when he had the time to manage two attacks on Yoda (the first of which the jedi master is not even noted as being able to sense or move from) he doesn't kill his master.
And yet he still combats him twice and manages to keep pace with Yoda who can beat Mace Windu. Yoda who can beat Sidious. Yoda who can bitchsmack just about anybody so long as they're knee-level.
I don't see these two scenarios being alike, I'm sorry.
Comparing Dooku to Windu is pointless, especially in terms of a fight. Whilst both are prodigies, Windu ultimately wields the deadlier form and -- along with his ability to detect weaknesses - Vaapad's special properties allow it to negate dark side advantages.
1. Windu's form is noted as being deadly, yet c-canon notes that they are for all intents and purposes at least equals. Taking place after Shatterpoint chronologically and written afterwords, DR places a conditional "perhaps" besides Mace, btw. Keep that in mind. And shatterpoint and his "superconductor loop" don't make him superior to every Sith he fights; Dooku doesn't give in to the Dark Side and hack away like some moron. Likewise, Dooku wouldn't be so stupid as to try and shock Mace to death. It's not like Dooku doesn't know Mace Windu and didn't fight him before.
Who said it was effortless? I said that Yoda would butcher him. Not take a shit on him. But the fact remains, they aren't near-equals like you try to portray.
Dooku is not Yoda's near-equal in wisdom and Force-mastery, I agree. But in saber mastery, he can hold his own. I believe ultimately Yoda may prevail in any neutral ground, pitched battle. However, I disagree with your assertion that Yoda would "butcher" him. This is unproven nonsense.
Really, because I could have swore that Dooku professed he will enjoy killing Yoda.
Like I said, reread the passage again, Escape. Dooku is grinning and goading Yoda on to use the Dark Side as he backsteps and deflects blows. This is now what someone does who's out to kill quick and easy. Nerfing his only two potshots also doesn't fit that criteria. Here's something you hadn't considered- subconsciously, Dooku's bluffing, and he loves his master too much to really give in and kill him. Even Yoda notes that Dooku is not lost at this point and good remains, and Dooku nearly is redeemed if he hadn't seen Skywalker and blown an artery.
Yoda breathes hard only once (and it was likely a sigh, unless you have a source that confirms exhaustion, in which case I'll concede the point) during his fight with Dooku in AotC. I don't recall him ever doing so with Sidious.
Did you actually watch that fight more than once? Yoda was breathing hard every single time they parted. He was like an asthmatic running the mile while tugging a grand piano on his back. I didn't see Yoda breath as heavy fighting Sidious, but then Sidious was disarmed in what? Two minutes? And then when Yoda fell down for the first time in the fight, he was down and out. He was not only way too far down to make a comeback, he could barely move. Obi-Wan gets choked and thrown across a room and crushed with a walkway and he's in better shape than Yoda after a duel.
You would, wouldn't you? That particular topic almost annoys me as much as suggesting that Yoda and Dooku are close -- despite on hand evidence contradicting it. Janus, Sidious is more powerful than Dooku. You need to accept it.
I've never been so sure as to why you must constantly fight me and get upset because I don't worship Sidious. It's not like I don't like the character- far from it. I just don't buy into his fanboy cult like everyone else does these days. Sidious in the movies is not the most impressive Sith Lord of all time. He certainly doesn't outduel anyone save three Jedi who couldn't defend themselves with two minutes' prep and he doesn't outperform any Sith Lord like Kun, Nihilus, etc. You can soak up all these obscure, half-assed quotes about how uber he is that are ratified by movie-centric secondary sources, but it doesn't move me. DE Sidious may be VERY strong, and I don't doubt that. DE Sidious is probably able to use the Force to rip Yoda's balls off. But as of RotS? He's a chump among greats. You need to either accept this, or agree to disagree because I am not going to be swayed by your hot-headed banter.
In Labyrinth of Evil, when Dooku discovers that the Jedi are hunting Sidious down, he has a moment where he realizes that this information could unearth the Sith Lord's identity and destroy him. He was the one who informed Sidious that the Jedi now had the means to expose him.Yet for a second, he "imagines the power that could be his" if he didn't tell Sidious. Then he goes ahead and tells him anyway, because he's Sidious's *****.
And he's that way for a damn reason.
Oh, right, I'm sure that Dooku's motivations to protect Sidious had everything to do with him being inferior in lightsaber and Force combat and nothing to do with the grand plan they had to rule the galaxy in an idealistic, post-Republic society. Yes, it had everything to do with his capabilities against Sidious and nothing to do with his political machinations. Considering Dooku is described as "Machiavellian", I don't see how you can assume otherwise, but if this is all you have, fly with it.
Do you even have a canon source that shows clearly Dooku has sparred with Sidious and lost? Or shows that Sidious is superior in saber mastery to Yoda and Mace Windu, the former of whom Dooku can contend with, the latter of whom is his equal?
Didn't think so. All you have are bias and conjectures.
Dooku stood to lose everything before. He risked death on Geonosis. He risked death on Vjun. He risked death with Skywalker and Obi-Wan in Labyrinth of Evil (Anakin nearly crushes him by collapsing a ceiling onto him). Hell, Darth "treachery is the way of the Sith" Tyranus stood to lose everything by associating with Sidious in the first place.Don't try to pass it off that he was willing to kill Sidious but didn't do so because he "might not" win. He didn't do it because he knew he couldn't.
It amuses me how much your bias shows through when this argument comes up. You literally lose yourself in it.
Escape, you again argue against the proven facts and make your own assertions and conjectures as the gospel truth.
Fact: Dooku is Machiavellian and a political idealist who wants to use Sidious' machinations and his own ideas to make a new society.
Fact: Dooku does not take any chances if he doesn't have to. He has backup plans. At Geonosis, he had a backup plan. At Vjun, he had a backup plan. In LOE, he had a backup plan. He's still be alive if he hadn't put his faith in Sidious, which was his greatest mistake.
Conjecture: Dooku didn't kill or betray Sidious in a complex war situation which could jeopardize the goals he betrayed the Jedi Order for, murdered his best friend for, and lived in exile for three years, ergo he couldn't hold a candle to him in personal combat.
See the difference? Dooku doesn't become a pussy cat in combat simply because he serves Sidious. Hell, Maul served Sidious and respected his wisdom and powers and he nearly tagged the Dark Lord.
And, curious, for some reason, Darth "Treachery is the way of the Sith" Tyranus never tries to betray his master, even when he is in a position to ruin his plans.
It's because really, Dooku is more a dark jedi than he ever was a Sith Lord. He fell into the Sith because he grew disgusted with the Jedi and thought Sidious could answer his prayers, but when it comes down to it, Dooku is less of a Sith than anyone else who held the title. But that's neither here nor there; if you don't respect him because he didn't backstab Sidious, good for you. It has no bearing no this debate.
Yes, but tell me why -- if Dooku fears Sidious -- Sidious doesn't fear Dooku? Surely there must be a reason, Janus.
Dooku fears Sidious as he fears the unknown. He never says or thinks that Sidious is his better in combat. He certainly doesn't herald Sidious as a lightsaber master; he cites Jedi who have skills as opposed to fellow Sith. Dooku needs Sidious in order to make his dream come true.
But really, Sidious doesn't fear Dooku? Sidious didn't fear Mace or Yoda either. Look where that got him.
Janus... this is bullshit and you know it. Mace wields the "deadlier" form (confirmed in Shatterpoint). Mace's Vaapad negates dark side advantages (confirmed in the RotS novelization). Dooku fled from Mace and used Magnaguards to keep him distracted. I don't doubt that they're peers in terms of ability, but Vaapad will take whatever Sith-inspired advantage that Dooku has and completely destroy it.
Ugh, this again.
1. The form is noted as "deadliest" by Yoda, who does not even practice it. This quote is third-person C-canon. DR, which takes place later, has narration which cites Mace as a potential equal to Dooku on neutral grounds. This is a narration c-canon quote. Last I checked, narration was "God's eye" POV, while third person is subject to personal failings. You stated as much yourself about Dooku's views on Ataru. Somehow, Yoda is the expert at Vaapad which he doesn't even practice while Dooku must be some saber ignoramus when his master and his apprentice both mastered the form. And I'm sure Qui-Gon just pulled that saber form out of his ass, because all Dooku taught him was how to pluck his eyebrows.
2. Mace's Vaapad allows him to channel his own darkness and to redirect others'. This does ****-all in a situation where someone's not hurling lightning at him or going apeshit using the darkside. One thing you fail to notice about Dooku is that he doesn't have to rely on the darkside to fuel his already formidable lightsaber duelling skills; he has already honed them to perfection. Dooku doesn't give in to the dark side to fight Yoda on Geonosis; hell, he didn't even break a sweat. What makes you think Vaapad will "omfg cruch him!!111"?
3. Dooku let his goons delay Mace. Woot. Vader lets his stormtroopers attack Luke. OMFG... he could never ever beat him!!!!1111 It's proof, I swear!!!111////...ONEONEELEVEN
An uphill battle? This isn't the half-assed Yoda who battled Dooku, Janus.
Half-assed Yoda, eh? So Yoda not even doing his best against Dooku gets out of breath after exactly sixty seconds duelling? Doesn't speak much for Yoda actually trying, does it?
This is "Destroy-the-Sith-we-must!" Yoda who fought Sidious.
"And yet, even here on Vjun, where the dark side whispers and whispers to me... love you enough to destroy you, I do."
- Yoda, P 316-317, Dark Rendezvous.
The same Sidious who did more than hold him at bay.
Sidious, to his credit, was able to contend with Yoda on the platform. However, he's then suddenly saberless, and even with the high ground Yoda manages to get back to his level and then whup his ass in a Force duel. So yeah, he did more than hold him at bay. He got tooled by him.
And certainly not inferior, either.
This is bias. Sidious was clearly shown to be weaker in the Force, as happened when Yoda pushed back from being bent over backwards with Sidious' strength and then floored with the shockwave. Yoda took several situations of disadvantage and turned it against Sidious. He disarmed the dark lord, nearly flattened him with his own thrown senate pod, got back up to him dispite being rained down upon and then came back from the brink to pwn Sidious in a major no-holds-barred Force clash. On neutral ground, Yoda would have killed Sidious faster than Mace did. On neutral ground and even with the element of fear on his side, Yoda never did this to Dooku.
"WTFpwned his Sith lightning" and "chucked his pod at him like it was a toy"? Are you seriously debating this objectively? If you'd like to diminish character feats, I'm all game, Janus. The point is that I give Dooku more credit than you ever gave Sidious.
I love this. Suddenly I'm "diminishing character feats" when I cite real and evident instances of Sidious being defeated, yet you are suddenly someone who gives Dooku his full credit by calling him a worthless patsy who can't defeat Sidious, isn't Anakin's better, isn't Mace's equal, and sucks because he's too smart and too calculating to throw himself into a death match with every third saber wielder in the series while sacrificing his life's dream? Oh yes, I'm so horrible, Escape. I'm showing horrible bias here, not you. You debate objectively.
a.) Yoda's grimace of obvious pain contradicts your entire "WTFpwnage" assessment. The fact that Yoda was only able to push the blast directly in between them (he doesn't hit Sidious with it) doesn't speak of superior Force. He wasn't able to overpower Sidious with it, as it detonated right in between them, seemingly nearly equal distance apart.
What is this shit? Are you daft?
Let me spell it out for you:
Yoda grabbed Sidious' Sith Lightning with his hands a point blank range while barely hanging on to the slick senate pod with his toeclaws, absorbed the shock and the power and then forced it back, causing Sidious to freak out, and then released the energy forward, which shot Yoda back since he had no traction and nothing to hold on to while Sidious was saved by a handrail.
You need to accept this as evident and move on. I remember Nai, myself and others reiterating this point from the movie, complete with scans and links, and yet you refused to admit it. Please, Escape... don't diminish character feats because you like Sidious. That's bias.
b.) The pod stuff is also bullshit. Sidious tossed three pods into the air in direct defiance with gravity while laughing his ass off, whereas Yoda struggled to stop one.
LMFAO.
Is anyone else reading this?
Hey, everyone... did you all remember the scene in Episode III where Yoda caught a senate pod hurled right at him in the blink of an eye? If you have eyes and you watched the fight scene more than once, you might want to remind Escape how this scene really went and not how it appeared in his mind.
And we come back to my big question. I don't want to flame you, Janus, and I'm not going to. But, for once, can you argue ****ing objectively or do you still think Dooku is more powerful than Sidious?
You seem to ignore something here, Escape: I do argue as objectively as I can. You can see above, my post was complete with direct sources, comparison of said sources, elaboration on my stances and my assertions, and clarification where you had merely glossed or "diminished character feats". The bottom line is that you are so much of a Sidious fanboy that your mind can't wrap around the fact that you have absolutely no conclusive evidence to support that Dooku is inferior to Sidious. In fact, C-canon material indicates that he's every bit the equal of someone who can kick Sidious' ass. You claim you don't want to flame me, and yet you come at me with the same boring routine as you did over a year ago. And now that I've been gone nearly as long, you've gotten used to asserting your own KMC dominance and status quo where no one questions Sidious' uberness because a bunch of random quotes from secondary source materials overblow his importance and uberness in the grand scheme of things. You also seem to think that DE Sidious and RotS Sidious are exactly the same in power, despite canon evidence to show otherwise and the fact that DE Sidious is nearly a generation older and wiser.
Now, excuse me for not sharing your opinion, but it's just that you can't communicate it without downplaying everyone but your favorite character. It's amazing how you turned this whole argument into Dooku versus Sidious all over again. Really, your ego must be attached to that sad old Sith.
Originally posted by Janus Marius
I've read that too, but it strikes me as some kind of myth. True, she was a Soresu practitioner who was a Jedi Master long before Obi-Wan, but there's nothing to indicate that she's any better than him.
From what I understand, Dooku had to put a minuscule amount of exertion to disable Obi Wan, whom happened to be a Soresu Master. Going by the information before us and using logic to our advantage, It is quite safe to assume that Luminara would either have an extremely difficult time defeating Dooku or she would simply be terminated by Dooku.
I'm just going to get involved on what I feel needs to be addressed...
Did you actually watch that fight more than once? Yoda was breathing hard every single time they parted. He was like an asthmatic running the mile while tugging a grand piano on his back. I didn't see Yoda breath as heavy fighting Sidious, but then Sidious was disarmed in what? Two minutes? And then when Yoda fell down for the first time in the fight, he was down and out. He was not only way too far down to make a comeback, he could barely move. Obi-Wan gets choked and thrown across a room and crushed with a walkway and he's in better shape than Yoda after a duel.
I've never been so sure as to why you must constantly fight me and get upset because I don't worship Sidious. It's not like I don't like the character- far from it. I just don't buy into his fanboy cult like everyone else does these days. Sidious in the movies is not the most impressive Sith Lord of all time. He certainly doesn't outduel anyone save three Jedi who couldn't defend themselves with two minutes' prep and he doesn't outperform any Sith Lord like Kun, Nihilus, etc. You can soak up all these obscure, half-assed quotes about how uber he is that are ratified by movie-centric secondary sources, but it doesn't move me. DE Sidious may be VERY strong, and I don't doubt that. DE Sidious is probably able to use the Force to rip Yoda's balls off. But as of RotS? He's a chump among greats. You need to either accept this, or agree to disagree because I am not going to be swayed by your hot-headed banter.
In fact, according to GL himself: Only Mace and Yoda can contend with Palpatine. He confirmed it's not those guys sucking, it's Palpatine being that damn good. So the choreography sucked. OK, I'm not happy about the fight either. But to belittle Palpatine because of that does indicate a bias.
Moreover, we're stuck in a lose-lose situation: Palpatine is built up SO much, no matter what he does, it'd be disappointing. Do you expect him to mow down an army on his own? Why isn't killing three Council Members enough there? And, for that matter, what has MArka Ragnos accomplished to rival that? Who has he killed? Simus? Sure, I'll give him that victory. But who else? Canonically? Logically, he probably fought off a lot of people-but we don't know what else he did
There's nothing 'obscure' about the matter and I've yet to hear an answer to anything Publius mentioned. You can't overwrite canon based on opinion, Janus.
As to your assertion Palpatine is a 'chump among greats?' What is this based on, Janus? Palpatine, by ROTS., is able to force the spirits of the Ancients to do his bidding-he's able to take on yoda, canonically described as THE most powerful Jedi ever at that point-and contrary to what you have said in the past, his abilities are hardly in question, even from the movies. Factoring in the EU-which we should be able to if we're arguing EU- he's the match of any former Sith any day.
Janus, I have to ask you: why the different standard here? I won't insult you, I won't resort to any attacks. I honestly do want to know why you belittle Palpatine so much to rule him out that way when there are levels of canon against you. So GL ****ed up. He does that a lot. That doesn't mean you need to toss the baby out with the bath water.
I'm not saying Palpatine by ROTS is the same as DE....however, as I said, the different standard is noticeable.
Example: You're very willing to give Odan-Ur and Vodo's deaths as a huge tip of the hat to Exar Kun...but Vodo and Odan have not been shown to do things that're altogether impressive. Vodo could harden his stick? Corran Horn can make his hands almost saber resistant and Torr Snappit could make his stick powerful.
You're also glad to acknowledge Freedon Nadd as a powerhouse. But what'd Nadd do? He took over a planet without much technology by deception and trickery: He didn't face armies to do it. The only confirmed Jedi kill Nadd has in his life is his former Master-who opened her arms and left herself open to test Nadd-which he failed.
Oh, right, I'm sure that Dooku's motivations to protect Sidious had everything to do with him being inferior in lightsaber and Force combat and nothing to do with the grand plan they had to rule the galaxy in an idealistic, post-Republic society. Yes, it had everything to do with his capabilities against Sidious and nothing to do with his political machinations. Considering Dooku is described as "Machiavellian", I don't see how you can assume otherwise, but if this is all you have, fly with it.
Do you even have a canon source that shows clearly Dooku has sparred with Sidious and lost? Or shows that Sidious is superior in saber mastery to Yoda and Mace Windu, the former of whom Dooku can contend with, the latter of whom is his equal?
Fact: Dooku is Machiavellian and a political idealist who wants to use Sidious' machinations and his own ideas to make a new society.
He is also an opportunist who looks to better the situation
It's because really, Dooku is more a dark jedi than he ever was a Sith Lord. He fell into the Sith because he grew disgusted with the Jedi and thought Sidious could answer his prayers, but when it comes down to it, Dooku is less of a Sith than anyone else who held the title. But that's neither here nor there; if you don't respect him because he didn't backstab Sidious, good for you. It has no bearing no this debate.
Dooku fears Sidious as he fears the unknown. He never says or thinks that Sidious is his better in combat. He certainly doesn't herald Sidious as a lightsaber master; he cites Jedi who have skills as opposed to fellow Sith. Dooku needs Sidious in order to make his dream come true.But really, Sidious doesn't fear Dooku? Sidious didn't fear Mace or Yoda either. Look where that got him. [/B]
That Palpatine is Dooku's superior is undeniable
I expected this to happen. Escape, excuse me if I don't address every single detail tonight, but it's late and I should really be winding down for the night.
No problem. I'm also stretched for time at the moment, so I'll try to make this as succinct as possible.
Sidious has a lot to say about Anakin's abilities and powers which everyone gobbles up, but if Dooku says anything he's apparently full of shit? Interesting how that works...
Janus, that is absolutely ridiculous. Darth Sidious's statements regarding Anakin's abilities and powers is far from being the same as Dooku gloating that he knows all about Ataru and "it's ridiculous acrobatics". For one, Sidious's thoughts and perceptions about Anakin aren't about to be born from predispositions and biases, now are they? There is no reason to even hint at that since George Lucas makes it damn clear that all Sidious wants is "ze ultimate apprentice!" or the closest thing from it, no matter who wields the power. That's why he was so willing to toss aside Vader for Luke in Return of the Jedi. All he has to say on the matter is based on observations and his knowledge of the boy itself, not embellishment on his behalf.
Meanwhile, Count Dooku's mental statement that he knows all about Ataru can -- and since we know that Dooku is legendary for his arrogance and hubris -- be born out of bias and conjecture. This is the same Dooku who boasted that he was "more powerful than any Jedi, even [Yoda]" (and then proceeded to retreat from him after all his attempts to destroy the Jedi failed). Simply because he says he knows all about the "ridiculous acrobatics!" -- note the disdain he has for the form -- doesn't mean that he does. I'd suggest not walking this route, Janus, it could come back and reveal its ugly head.
1. You assume that Dooku's statement is false.
I didn't, actually. All I said was that Dooku stating as much doesn't make it so. That both his mentor and his protege were Ataru-users suggests that he obviously has a great deal of knowledge regarding the form, and I never disputed it.
I did say, however, his knowledge is pointless and irrelevant if he can't exploit the weaknesses. And he never manages to do so.
2. You say he was forced to retreat by Ataru twice. You gloss over the details and fail to recognize the following: that the first time Dooku took his leave, he realized he could not take the time to defeat Yoda while the Republic was attacking Geonosis. This is called being smart. Even if he defeated Yoda that day, the battle would have been too hard earned, and then Mace or fifty clone troopers would have jumped him and his coup would be over. He's not so arrogant and stupid as to ruin his idealistic plan just to sate his ego. The incident on Vjun was broken off by Dooku because Anakin and Obi-Wan were infiltrating the castle and he would likely not be able to contend with all three when the time came. Again, he acted in prudence. He was not forced down by Yoda's Ataru mastery; nothing ever indicates such. In AotC film, Yoda's saber blitz does nothing to penetrate Dooku's defenses. If anything, Dooku shows the ability to keep up with Yoda unlike anyone else save maybe Sidious.
I didn't gloss over any details nor did I fail to recognize anything. Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't you one of the ones who credited Sidious's attempted retreat from Yoda as "cowardice", and yet when Dooku does the same, it's "prudence"? That is a blatant double standard and if you're going to use them, don't bother continuing this argument.
Count Dooku knew long before even his duel with Anakin and Obi-Wan that the Confederacy was losing the fight. Hence his retreat to the hangar in the first place. Bearing that in mind, he didn't have to stick around and waste precious minutes of his limited time "displaying his mastery" to Obi-Wan and Anakin. That he managed to easily disable Obi-Wan with the Force in Revenge of the Sith and -- according to you -- could do just the same with Anakin at that time, why didn't he do the same thing with those two on Geonosis? They were even weaker and less experienced.
No, instead, he chose to "sate his ego". And then when Yoda shows up -- the Confederacy even closer to defeat -- he sticks around to try and display his superiority. And then, all of his Force attacks fail, and he chooses to engage his one-time master in a lightsaber duel. And you expect me to believe that then at that moment, he decides to pull a narrow getaway? With all that on the line? The Death Star plans and his life?
No, I don't think so, Janus.
And there's still that nagging suspicion that Yoda disarmed Sidious since the Sith Lord's suddenly missing a saber less than two minutes into their duel.
Excellent. Then, I assume, you have evidence or some sort of proof to support your "nagging suspicion"? Perhaps a scene from the movie? -- No. Wait. The movie doesn't show it. Perhaps the novelization? -- No. Wait, the novelization doesn't mention it. Ah, third time's the charm. The script! --Yes, there's a scene that shows Yoda disarming Sidious. And yet, of course, that doesn't apply... why, it's entire account of the duel contradicts the movie, ergo, it must not be canon. Hell, it even shows Yoda letting Sidious go, despite being a metaphorical inch away from crushing him.
Though, I suppose it doesn't matter. Even if we accepted that Yoda disarmed Sidious, it would mean that the Sith Lord managed to escape his opponent -- his armed and faster opponent (who, according to you, is even stronger than he is in the Force) -- completely unarmed. And, somehow, he managed to put so much more distance between himself and Yoda before Yoda -- again, is the very least as quick as he is -- managed to catch up with him.
You see how that line of thought dies a tragic death.
3. You also gloss over the fact that Dooku's been sparring with Yoda since before Mace Windu was a twinkle in his mother's eye, and his apprentice Qui-Gon was also a master in Ataru. To say he was unfamiliar with its purpose and use is folly. To say he was beaten by it is clearly false. And to assume that he does not know it enough to defeat it is worse. Makashi is the duellist' form, and its expertise is lightsaber fighting, period.
I didn't say that he was "unfamiliar with it", Janus. And if he did "know it enough to defeat it", you will, of course, provide proof of this happening. 🙂
Poor comparison. Grievous was not a Force-sensitive combatant, but a hastily trained killing machine who operated best when he either attacked from secrecy or with shock troops supporting him. When he was alone against Jedi, he oftentimes got his just desserts. But if you expect me to believe that Grievous' dabbling in forms somehow compares with Dooku's saber mastery and his experience with other forms, you're sadly mistaken. The two operate nothing alike, and Grievous does not have the expertise, Force capability, and experience the former Jedi does.
I see. So, it doesn't work because General Grievous isn't Force-sensitive. Hmm. And, yet, he was still "more than a match" for most Jedi. That doesn't seem quite right; Dooku himself lamented in Labyrinth of Evil that he had been "hard-pressed" from time to time, so do me a favor and elucidate more on this topic.
Actually, this is wrong. Yoda does say in Dark Rendezvous at one point that he loves Dooku enough to know he has to destroy him.
And yet when it comes down to the execution of that threat, Yoda tells Dooku that he doesn't want to hurt him. Dooku is more eager to go for the kill, whereas Yoda doesn't. Yoda only goes for the kill once, Janus, and I'm sorry to say that it isn't with Dooku. In fact, one could interpret Dark Rendezvous is the testimony that -- for once -- Yoda simply couldn't kill Dooku out of emotion.
After all, if he did, he would have continued to attack Dooku on Vjun. The Jedi philosophy is about sacrifice. Why should he suddenly have cared about endangering his life -- or even the lives of his companions -- since removing Dooku would deal a crippling blow to the Confederacy.
Do me a favor and explain that. I'm apparently too stupid to understand it myself.
And even then, Dooku can contest with him. It's only when Dooku notices that Anakin and Obi-Wan are very close via the holoscreens that he plays his trump card.
You mean the missile that Dooku had placed in orbit on the possibility that he was "overpowered" (his words, not mine) by Yoda?
Perhaps you should read it again:Among the other Jedi, perhaps only Mace Windu would have been his equal on neutral ground[...]
Page 315.
That's a source as valid as anything written about Shatterpoint and Vaapad claiming that on neutral ground, Mace Windu is perhaps his only equal among the Jedi. Reread that sentence at least three times before you reply, please. Shatterpoint and Dark Rendezvous are both C-canon, and the point stands.
Perhaps it's my own fallibility in English, but again, where does it say that Mace "might" be the only one? Because it also seems to say that maybe Mace is the only one. That perhaps there are more.
Very ambiguous.
Vaapad is noted as "deadliest of all" by Yoda briefly in his conversation with Palpatine, although he notes also that it is inherently dangerous. Yoda's meaning is a bit ambiguous; he says its a powerful form, but unstable. However, since Yoda's never even practiced Vaapad, I can't exactly call him an expert.
The beauty of ambiguity. Yoda, not an expert, despite witnessing first hand the form performed? Hmm. All right.
Vaapad is noted for its blinding speed and straddling the darkness without succumbing to it and this combined with Mace's shatterpoint makes him perhaps the best Jedi fighter in the Order next to Yoda and Dooku despite his young age.
...Perhaps a clue, then?
However, there's nothing to support that Vaapad is better than Makashi overall. I believe that Mace's physical strength plays more to his favor than anything else, really, since he's a damn tank. However, Dooku's level of blade mastery is up there, and c-canon sources that call Vaapad "deadly" also call the creator a potential equal for the only living Makashi master.
So, you have a source claiming Vaapad is "the most dangerous" and a source claiming Makash is "the ultimate dueling form". Perhaps it might just be as I've said all along? Vaapad and Shatterpoint allow Mace to negate any advantages his opponent might have? Explained by the fact that Sidious butchered his three companions (the last of which while sparring with Mace) and that he forced Mace, an aggressive fighter, into the main office before they managed to duel on equal terms?
So I really don't see where you think Mace can just smash Dooku.
Of course you don't. But it's been explained. Perhaps you ought to try reading it three times before you reply? 🙂
It's not like Dooku's going to get kicked on his ass and then be stupid enough to keep frying his own face.
"Stupid"? Oh, I see. Well, I could reply that the same "stupid" guy used Dooku as a pawn for thirteen years, made him his lapdog, and then effortlessly tossed him aside once he outlived his usefulness. If that guy's "stupid", Dooku himself must be downright retarded. Lmao. I loved it especially when Dooku realized he was just a "pawn" and his life was a "joke" all part of Sidious's plan.
But, try as you might to claim otherwise, I do give other characters credit (something you need to work on).
1. On-screen depiction of his fighting shows otherwise. Movie canon >>>>> c-canon.
1. On-screen depiction of his fighting doesn't show him dueling Mace on equal terms. Unless you want to use the dreaded A>B>C argument, in which case, you'll be engaging in a double standard.
2. Even c-canon supports that Dooku is on Mace's level as of DR. Yoda cannot floor him easily, and no fight between them ever comes to conclusion since both battles were broken up beforehand. As for two Magnaguards waylaying Mace, BFD. Supervillains love cannonfodder, but that doesn't mean they can't fight when they need to. You citing that he let his droids distract Mace doesn't take away from his proven abilities; it simply reinforces how much you're willing to grab at to disprove his abilities. You compliment him with one word and slander him with another.
Oh, Janus, Janus, Janus. You accuse me of "slandering" another character? "Utter" and "bullshit" come to mind. Jeez, didn't you just call say Sidious was 'stupid'? Haven't you agreed that he is merely the 'benefactor of circumstances'? A guy who just got damn lucky?
Try again. Perhaps when you're not winding down.
This is wrong. Reread the battle. Yoda says he will destroy him shortly after that, out of love for him.
And yet when it comes down to it, he chose not to.
You seem to be full of poor comparisons lately.]Neither Naga Sadow, nor Ludo Kressh or the others of the Sith High Council so much as raised a blade to Ragnos for his century long reign.
...And Dooku never attacked Sidious in his ten-year session of servitude. Seems, so far, we're on the same page. To try to debunk my point is to attack your own.
He was noted both in narration and by sources as the strongest of the strong in that era, and even before his spirit the two Sith lords bowed.
...And Sidious was noted to be "the most powerful" of Bane's rule of two (which includes Dooku), "the most powerful Sith Lord in history" by the tNEC, and Dooku himself acknowledges that he "would never question the power of Darth Sidious. The dark secrets at his command." Again, we're on the same page.
This is in a society where if one can kill the other, he does so, through treachery or through combat.
The Sith function the same way, as they always have. If you're stronger, you kill. You seem to think that Sith principles have changed since then. Bane killed his peers when he saw how weak and foolish they were. You've implied Dooku is not only stronger than Sidious, but smarter as well. In your efforts to belittle the Dark Lord, you've destroyed your own argument.
You are comparing this with Dooku's respect for Yoda on a subconscious level (How he still refers to him as master) and how Dooku thinks about how much Yoda did for him to help him remain humble and how he wanted to save him from himself, and Dooku feared Sidious' jealousy, but he also feared that he was lost and that he could never return.
Incorrect, I'm not comparing this to anything of the sort. All of Dooku's respect for Yoda is on a subconscious level. He desperately tries to think of himself as his former master's equal -- if not outright superior -- and yet he never can quite muster up the power to claim that title. Dooku seems to bare an inferiority complex.
So he struck at Yoda, meaning to kill him, and yet for all his chances, he never did. Even when he had the time to manage two attacks on Yoda (the first of which the jedi master is not even noted as being able to sense or move from) he doesn't kill his master.
Humor me by providing proof.
And yet he still combats him twice and manages to keep pace with Yoda who can beat Mace Windu. Yoda who can beat Sidious. Yoda who can bitchsmack just about anybody so long as they're knee-level.
Janus, you're using the A>B>C argument you've spent many arguments mocking others for using. Is that desperation or mere oversight? In any case, it doesn't apply. I'm sorry.
I don't see these two scenarios being alike, I'm sorry.1. Windu's form is noted as being deadly, yet c-canon notes that they are for all intents and purposes at least equals. Taking place after Shatterpoint chronologically and written afterwords, DR places a conditional "perhaps" besides Mace, btw. Keep that in mind. And shatterpoint and his "superconductor loop" don't make him superior to every Sith he fights; Dooku doesn't give in to the Dark Side and hack away like some moron. Likewise, Dooku wouldn't be so stupid as to try and shock Mace to death. It's not like Dooku doesn't know Mace Windu and didn't fight him before.
I want you to prove that the "superconductive loop" requires the Sith or dark side opponent to "give themselves into the dark side".
[NOTE: This is in response to your first post, Janus. I myself am strapped for time: I have Tae Kwon Do practice and a party later. If you'll permit me to respond to it all before we continue, I'd appreciate it.]
Take your time, Escape. I'm extremely busy with work until Monday. LS, I'll address your post Monday-ish too.
