Mace Windu and Dooku vs Yoda and Luminara Unduli

...Continuing where I have left off, Janus; thank you for allowing me the time to complete my total response.

Dooku is not Yoda's near-equal in wisdom and Force-mastery, I agree. But in saber mastery, he can hold his own. I believe ultimately Yoda may prevail in any neutral ground, pitched battle. However, I disagree with your assertion that Yoda would "butcher" him. This is unproven nonsense.

It is not unproven, Janus. Count Dooku was unable to defeat Yoda on a planet steeped in the dark side of the Force -- a planet that allowed him to overpower Asajj Ventress, a formidable dark sider, by merely lifting his finger -- where Dooku's command of the dark side would be enhanced by some margin; Yoda's powers would either remain the same or they would be dampened by the dark side atmosphere. This very same planet was a major CIS stronghold as well, and yet the same Dooku who gloats to Yoda in their confrontation that he could "have Yoda killed" contradicts himself by admitting after the duel that he had a missile placed in orbit because "there was always a chance" Yoda could have overpowered him. The very same Yoda who didn't try to kill him.

It's obvious that in the heat of the moment, Dooku likes to fantasize that he's on Yoda's level in terms of prowess, and yet when he is thinking rationally, he knows that it isn't the case.

Like I said, reread the passage again, Escape. Dooku is grinning and goading Yoda on to use the Dark Side as he backsteps and deflects blows. This is now what someone does who's out to kill quick and easy. Nerfing his only two potshots also doesn't fit that criteria. Here's something you hadn't considered- subconsciously, Dooku's bluffing, and he loves his master too much to really give in and kill him.

...You're assuming, Janus. We've already identified that Dooku truly knows that he is no match for Yoda on Vjun -- hence the missile placed in orbit -- much less on "neutral ground". Gloating and goading? Sidious did that as well, does that mean that he was toying with Yoda? I shouldn't think so. It's a technique to unnerve and destabilize one's opponent. Dooku tried it and failed. There is no reason to believe that he didn't want to kill him.

Even Yoda notes that Dooku is not lost at this point and good remains, and Dooku nearly is redeemed if he hadn't seen Skywalker and blown an artery.

Again, what does this mean? Yoda's analysis of Dooku is that -- somewhere -- there is some force of good within him. He later contradicts himself in Labyrinth of Evil and tells Palpatine that there is no chance for "rehabilitation" for Dooku. And, even them, all the while, he was still capable of mass murders, genocide, betrayals, and committing terrible acts of war.

Once again, I don't deny that Dooku had some sort of twisted respect/fear/love for Yoda. But when it came down to the fight, he shoved it all aside and opted to try to kill him.

Did you actually watch that fight more than once? Yoda was breathing hard every single time they parted. He was like an asthmatic running the mile while tugging a grand piano on his back.

Yoda's eight centuries old. Dooku's eighty. Mace Windu comments that Yoda chose Ataru to compensate for his weaknesses: advanced age and lack of mobility. It's obvious that he's going to have to put some effort in trying to keep up with his contemporary duelists. Is that supposed to be a sign of Yoda's inferiority? Hardly. Shadow Hunter even makes a great deal about Yoda's speed -- able to avoid three of the Order's finest swordsmen in lightsaber combat despite being unarmed -- to compensate for his usual immobility, yes, he's going to throw some effort into it.

What he didn't try to do is kill Dooku. He professed to Mace that Dooku "must be captured!" -- his willingness to try to convince Dooku to return in Dark Rendezvous is another example -- hell, even during their Force fight on Geonosis, Yoda only attacks Dooku once, and, oddly enough, that is when Dooku decides to stop the Force duel entirely.

I didn't see Yoda breath as heavy fighting Sidious, but then Sidious was disarmed in what? Two minutes?

Again, I'm looking forward to the proof you'll offer on this subject.

And then when Yoda fell down for the first time in the fight, he was down and out.

Are you referring to when Sidious attacked him with Force lightning (which is the actual first time) or when he fell from the pod?

He was not only way too far down to make a comeback, he could barely move.

If you're referring to Yoda's fall at the duel's end, he fell what seemed to be several stories and he could and did move. He managed to escape through the Rotunda's corridor system without any signs of difficulty. Upon being questioned by Bail, he replies "only his pride" was injured.

Obi-Wan gets choked and thrown across a room and crushed with a walkway and he's in better shape than Yoda after a duel.

Obi-Wan was a physically able man in his thirties. Yoda is a physically frail alien in his eighth century of life. Furthermore, Obi-Wan was knocked unconscious by Dooku -- when he rose, he was fine. And, I remind you that so was Yoda by Sidious, and he recovered nicely as well.

I've never been so sure as to why you must constantly fight me and get upset because I don't worship Sidious.

Exaggeration. I never asked you to nor implied that you ought to worship Sidious. Do you worship Dooku or Ragnos, Janus, because you fight me when it comes to those two as well. The curious thing about a fight is that it requires both parties to get involved. That you accuse me of expecting you to worship Sidious is fine, but it could just as easily be that you expect us to worship Dooku and Ragnos.

It's not like I don't like the character- far from it.

I don't care if you like him or not. You haven't been here, Janus. You might not believe it, but I regularly give credit to characters -- if you can even call them that -- I don't like. I've argued for Revan and Ragnos on numerous occasions despite my dislike for them.

Where have you ever done the same for Sidious? Hell, where have you even acknowledged his talents? He conquered the galaxy and wiped out the Jedi. Something Revan failed to do. Something Ragnos never even tried to do because he knew he couldn't win. Sidious faced similar odds and made fools out of the entire lot. He's the greatest Sith Lord, that is undeniable and unavoidable. And yet I distinctly recall you agreeing with Illustrious that most of it is credited to "sheer luck" and "circumstance". The fact also remains that, at the very damn least, he also happens to be one of the very most powerful.

I just don't buy into his fanboy cult like everyone else does these days. Sidious in the movies is not the most impressive Sith Lord of all time. He certainly doesn't outduel anyone save three Jedi who couldn't defend themselves with two minutes' prep and he doesn't outperform any Sith Lord like Kun, Nihilus, etc. You can soak up all these obscure, half-assed quotes about how uber he is that are ratified by movie-centric secondary sources, but it doesn't move me. DE Sidious may be VERY strong, and I don't doubt that. DE Sidious is probably able to use the Force to rip Yoda's balls off. But as of RotS? He's a chump among greats. You need to either accept this, or agree to disagree because I am not going to be swayed by your hot-headed banter.

That "chump among greats" succeeded. The others? They lived and died as total failures. Only Bane can really compare. Those three Jedi were also -- by the way -- referred to as "three of the greatest swordsmen that the Order ever produced" and the only reason they failed is that you have to be "Mace or Yoda" to compete with Sidious.

You'll notice that Dooku isn't among that number. In fact, if one could get particularly technical, neither do the other Sith Lords that you've mentioned.

Oh, right, I'm sure that Dooku's motivations to protect Sidious had everything to do with him being inferior in lightsaber and Force combat and nothing to do with the grand plan they had to rule the galaxy in an idealistic, post-Republic society. Yes, it had everything to do with his capabilities against Sidious and nothing to do with his political machinations. Considering Dooku is described as "Machiavellian", I don't see how you can assume otherwise, but if this is all you have, fly with it.

Ridiculous. Haven't you implied that Dooku is not only stronger than Sidious, but smarter as well? Had that been the case, he would have had no problem either deducing what was left of Sidious's plans or he could have orchestrated them to his own doing after he killed him. But, what's this? He didn't. He couldn't. And he remained a pawn the entire time.

In Labyrinth of Evil -- you "gloss" over this -- Dooku is now aware that the Jedi are hunting for Sidious. He also muses that if he doesn't alert Sidious to a new development, the Jedi would have the means to expose Sidious and destroy him. Count Dooku begins to doubt his master's chances completely. "And for a second, Dooku imagined the power that would be his."

And then he pushes the button to begin his transmission to Darth Sidious, promptly alerting his master about the danger that awaits him. And we know from canon sources that Tyranus has no scruples about betraying allegiances and deceiving. He is in an absolute position to benefit from Sidious's defeat, and yet... he chooses not to. Out of fear.

Do you even have a canon source that shows clearly Dooku has sparred with Sidious and lost? Or shows that Sidious is superior in saber mastery to Yoda and Mace Windu, the former of whom Dooku can contend with, the latter of whom is his equal?

Did I suggest that Sidious is a more capable swordsman than Yoda or Mace? No. Furthermore, do you have a canon source stating that Dooku is superior or equal to Sidious? Because, incidentally, all of the statements on the matter include Dooku being terrified of his master, even when he is in a position to defeat him.

Didn't think so. All you have are bias and conjectures.

I have neither. I have objectivity and canon sources. You have the above and a quote from Dark Rendezvous. An impressive arsenal, Janus.

It amuses me how much your bias shows through when this argument comes up. You literally lose yourself in it.

It amuses me how you are able to discern so much via the internet. Are you a closet-psychiatrist, Janus? Or are you just in the habit of assuming without the benefit of evidence?

Janus, you again argue against the proven facts and make your own assertions and conjectures as the gospel truth.

Corrected.

Fact: Dooku is Machiavellian and a political idealist who wants to use Sidious' machinations and his own ideas to make a new society.

Lie.

Fact: Dooku is Machiavellian and a political idealist who lives in perpetual fear of his master -- Darth Sidious -- and, even when in a position to ruin him completely -- can't. Hell, he can't bring himself to do it even when he has the help of a formidable dark sider (Asajj) and a vast military machine at his disposal.

Fact: Dooku does not take any chances if he doesn't have to. He has backup plans. At Geonosis, he had a backup plan. At Vjun, he had a backup plan. In LOE, he had a backup plan. He's still be alive if he hadn't put his faith in Sidious, which was his greatest mistake.

Lie.

Fact: Count Dooku took an unnecessary chance at Geonosis. Instead of annihilating or soundly defeating Anakin and Obi-Wan (knowing full well that the CIS is getting its ass kicked), he chooses to square off with them one at a time and then he wants to dick around with Yoda for several minutes, only choosing to leave when he realizes he can't win.

Conjecture: Dooku didn't kill or betray Sidious in a complex war situation which could jeopardize the goals he betrayed the Jedi Order for, murdered his best friend for, and lived in exile for three years, ergo he couldn't hold a candle to him in personal combat.

Lie.

Fact: Dooku didn't kill or betray Sidious when he had the powers of Asajj Ventress and the CIS at his total disposal (Dark Rendezvous), nor when the Jedi were hunting the Dark Lord down and close to exposing him; where Dooku "imagined all the power that could be his" (Labyrinth of Evil). Ergo, in a position to claim total victory, Dooku -- the supposedly "smarter" and "stronger" -- chose not to do so out of total fear of the man who disrespected him, mocked him, and used him as a tool for over a decade.

See the difference? Dooku doesn't become a pussy cat in combat simply because he serves Sidious. Hell, Maul served Sidious and respected his wisdom and powers and he nearly tagged the Dark Lord.

Dooku becomes a pussy cat in combat because, sadly, he -- Machiavellian and a Sith Lord -- chose not to betray Sidious out of fear. Furthermore, Janus, have you even read the piece in question where Maul "nearly tagged the Dark Lord"? They fought. Sidious defeated him soundly. He mocked him relentlessly. Maul attacked again -- giving into his rage and anger -- and was again disarmed and defeated. Hell, knowing he was outmatched, he bit Sidious. Not quite the same circumstance.

Wasn't it your whole cry that that was Anakin's victory over Dooku in a nutshell? Physical ferocity and giving into anger? And, unlike Dooku, Sidious survived and defeated his opponent.

It's because really, Dooku is more a dark jedi than he ever was a Sith Lord. He fell into the Sith because he grew disgusted with the Jedi and thought Sidious could answer his prayers, but when it comes down to it, Dooku is less of a Sith than anyone else who held the title. But that's neither here nor there; if you don't respect him because he didn't backstab Sidious, good for you. It has no bearing no this debate.

Conjecture.

I do respect Dooku. But I manage to recognize that, while he presented himself as an honorable man, he wasn't. He was a liar and a cutthroat and his story was simply more twisted and complex than most Sith Lords. That doesn't make him any less of a Sith, sorry.

Dooku fears Sidious as he fears the unknown.

"Not that he would ever question the power of Darth Sidious. The dark secrets at his command."

...Straight from Dark Rendezvous.

He never says or thinks that Sidious is his better in combat.

So that means that it isn't so? Lol.

Janus, Dooku is a complicated mix of arrogance and insecurity all wrapped into one. He feverishly wishes to believe he is superior to all the Jedi, and only in moments -- even during internal monologue -- does he ever acknowledge anyone's superiority or rivalry.

He certainly doesn't herald Sidious as a lightsaber master; he cites Jedi who have skills as opposed to fellow Sith.

What is that supposed to mean? Elaborate. Clarify. In fact, Dooku mentions in Labyrinth of Evil that he noticed Yoda and Sidious had "certain qualities in common". That neither were completely "frail by age or by the intensity required to master the Jedi and Sith arts".

Dooku needs Sidious in order to make his dream come true.

You mean the "smarter" and "stronger" Dooku? Surely not.

But really, Sidious doesn't fear Dooku? Sidious didn't fear Mace or Yoda either. Look where that got him.

Totally irrelevant. You implying that Sidious should have feared Dooku doesn't make it so, nor did you give any reason that he should have. Dooku was a pawn in Sidious's total control, held in fear and reverance of his master.

Note: I'll get to the response of your third post shortly, Janus.

1. Hard to say, cause we don't really know how good Luminara is with the Force, Yoda is a fair bit above Mace or Dooku, though. Not sure.

2. Likely Mace and Dooku - Mace could put up quite a fight against Yoda, possibly even win (though likely not). Luminara is below ROTS Kenobi so I'm sure Dooku could take her with a blade, not sure how close it would be, though, but I doubt it would be as close as Mace and Yoda are.

3. Mace and Dooku - Dooku takes out Unduli with the Force like he took out Kenobi in ROTS, then he and Mace double-team Yoda and win.

Might as well bring this up

...The final installment of my response to Janus. Whew. Two of my posts per one of his. Six posts to his three. It's going to get hellacious on me if he multiplies his. That'd be like 4 to my 2 and 8 to his 4. Aaagh!

Thanks for giving me my time, Janus.

Ugh, this again.

1. The form is noted as "deadliest" by Yoda, who does not even practice it. This quote is third-person C-canon. DR, which takes place later, has narration which cites Mace as a potential equal to Dooku on neutral grounds. This is a narration c-canon quote. Last I checked, narration was "God's eye" POV, while third person is subject to personal failings. You stated as much yourself about Dooku's views on Ataru. Somehow, Yoda is the expert at Vaapad which he doesn't even practice while Dooku must be some saber ignoramus when his master and his apprentice both mastered the form. And I'm sure Qui-Gon just pulled that saber form out of his ass, because all Dooku taught him was how to pluck his eyebrows.

Yoda's notation of Vaapad's status as "the deadliest" hardly compares to Dooku's boastful, arrogant claims regarding his knowledge of Ataru. Furthermore, as I've made explicitly clear, I never denied Dooku lacked intimate knowledge of Ataru. I merely claimed that your reasoning behind it -- primarily, because he just happened to say so -- is flawed. Yoda is the most powerful, experienced, and wisest of the living Jedi at the time. He has witnessed the birth and evolution of the form and its creator. Why would he not be in a position to claim which form is the deadliest? He has more experience with all seven than either Windu or Dooku can compete with.

2. Mace's Vaapad allows him to channel his own darkness and to redirect others'. This does ****-all in a situation where someone's not hurling lightning at him or going apeshit using the darkside. One thing you fail to notice about Dooku is that he doesn't have to rely on the darkside to fuel his already formidable lightsaber duelling skills; he has already honed them to perfection. Dooku doesn't give in to the dark side to fight Yoda on Geonosis; hell, he didn't even break a sweat. What makes you think Vaapad will "omfg cruch him!!111"?

Read the novelization again, Janus. Mace's Vaapad allows him to channel his own darkness into a "weapon of the light", and allows him to use Sidious's awesome rage and speed -- redirect it -- and thus, replicate it. This is what allows him to fight the Dark Lord on even terms, explained by the fact that he was (at first) unable to prevent the Sith Lord from wiping out his teammates or preventing himself from being pushed back into the main office. Yet both of this happened. Despite being outnumbered, Sidious outmaneuvered his opponents and pushed Windu back into the office because, at the start of the duel, he was faster. And as the novelization tells us, Windu's Vaapad -- sinking into it -- allows him to fight the Sith Lord on even terms. That Dooku doesn't "go apeshit!!!1!" in his fights does not justify the belief that he will not fall susceptible to Vaapad.

3. Dooku let his goons delay Mace. Woot. Vader lets his stormtroopers attack Luke. OMFG... he could never ever beat him!!!!1111 It's proof, I swear!!!111////...ONEONEELEVEN

Janus, the theatrics are unnecessary and ridiculous. Count Dooku went into the fray, ordering his thugs to "leave the Jedi to him!" and yet -- when confronted with the persona of Mace Windu -- contradicts his own order after a brief duel, ordering his Magnaguards to delay Mace. This is, again, hardly the same thing as Darth Vader's stormtroopers attacking Luke. Nor is it any form of proof that Dooku is somehow Mace's superior. If anything, it seems to indicate that the Count is nervous about fighting him.

Half-assed Yoda, eh? So Yoda not even doing his best against Dooku gets out of breath after exactly sixty seconds duelling? Doesn't speak much for Yoda actually trying, does it?

Your use of hyperbole and exaggeration is irrelevant. Yoda wasn't "out of breath", he wasn't performing like an "athsmatic". These constant portrayals of Yoda's inferiority won't work on me.

"And yet, even here on Vjun, where the dark side whispers and whispers to me... love you enough to destroy you, I do."

- Yoda, P 316-317, Dark Rendezvous.

...And again, what did Yoda choose to do? Rather than kill Dooku or allow the missile to destroy them both -- he chooses the route that allows Dooku to flee. And for what? Anakin and Obi-Wan? Hardly. Yoda says in Revenge of the Sith that a true Jedi would be willing to sacrifice any of their number for the greater good. Removing Count Dooku -- formidable adversary and figurehead of the CIS -- seems to constitute as such a greater good.

Sidious, to his credit, was able to contend with Yoda on the platform. However, he's then suddenly saberless, and even with the high ground Yoda manages to get back to his level and then whup his ass in a Force duel. So yeah, he did more than hold him at bay. He got tooled by him.

Is this an example of your vaunted objectivity, Janus? "Sidious, to his credit, was able to contend with Yoda on the platform." -- and in the same paragraph -- "He got tooled by him." I really don't need to say anything at all.

Darth Sidious was able to contend with Yoda on the Chancellor's podium on an equal level. Then, when we see him next, yes, he is no longer holding his lightsaber. Where did it go? Again, suggesting that he was disarmed also involves the indication that Sidious was able to evade an Yoda, despite the former being disarmed and the latter being in possession of a lightsaber; despite the former and the latter both being within close combat quarters and the latter being -- according to you -- much stronger than the former.

Explain this discrepency, for me.

This is bias.

I am biased? Perhaps, Janus. But not nearly to the level that you are. You forget, I can and have argued for Count Dooku and Darth Revan and even Marka Ragnos on numerous occasions, even when they were pitted against characters I prefer and like better. Where have you done the same for Sidious? When he's pitted against Anakin -- a character you seemingly dislike even less than the Dark Lord himself? Perhaps you could refresh my memory, because all I seem to recall are passages upon passages of belittlement and downplaying from your end.

Sidious was clearly shown to be weaker in the Force, as happened when Yoda pushed back from being bent over backwards with Sidious' strength and then floored with the shockwave.

Clearly? No. Yoda managed -- and barely so -- to push the coil of lightning directly in between himself and Sidious. No father. He did not, contrary to popular (misguided) belief, hit Sidious with the coil. It stopped and then detonated on its own accord.

By the way: "being bent over backwards with Sidious' strength"... yes, clearly an example of Yoda's pwnage, Janus. Have you redefined the term since we last debated? I always assumed "pwnage" implied vast superiority. Or does this only apply with Sidious?

Yoda took several situations of disadvantage and turned it against Sidious.

Such as the following?

He disarmed the dark lord,

Prove it.

Meanwhile, I have on-hand evidence showing Sidious disarming Yoda. Curious. I suppose Yoda let him do that?

nearly flattened him with his own thrown senate pod,

How cute.

You mean nearly flattening the Dark Lord who, at the time, was doubled over in laughter? Quite an achievement. Meanwhile, we also see Sidious nearly flatten Yoda with a senate pod as well. Curious, curious.

got back up to him dispite being rained down upon and then came back from the brink to pwn Sidious in a major no-holds-barred Force clash.

"Being rained down upon" and "came back from the brink"? Surely not, Janus, that would imply that the battle was close. If Yoda 'pwned' Sidious, this would not be the case. You're contradicting yourself. Furthermore, as we've seen, he didn't pwn Sidious at all.

On neutral ground, Yoda would have killed Sidious faster than Mace did.

Prove it.

On neutral ground and even with the element of fear on his side, Yoda never did this to Dooku.

Correct. Dooku usually fled before this imaginary point ever occured, out of fear, and Yoda -- for some stupid reason -- chose not to continue his two assaults.

Meanwhile, I never remember Dooku -- empowered on Vjun -- ever disarming Yoda, who didn't attack Dooku with the same ferocity that he attacked Sidious, either. Curious.

I love this. Suddenly I'm "diminishing character feats" when I cite real and evident instances of Sidious being defeated, yet you are suddenly someone who gives Dooku his full credit by calling him a worthless patsy who can't defeat Sidious, isn't Anakin's better, isn't Mace's equal, and sucks because he's too smart and too calculating to throw himself into a death match with every third saber wielder in the series while sacrificing his life's dream? Oh yes, I'm so horrible, Escape. I'm showing horrible bias here, not you. You debate objectively.

Beautiful, Janus. Beautiful. You're diminishing character feats by fabricating declarations of "pwnage" on behalf of characters in situations that did not "pwn" in any way, shape, or form. Once again, I have debated for Dooku on numerous occasions, nor do I ever "belittle" him, nor refer to him as a "patsy". Exaggeration here is ridiculous. Such is a habit of me quoting Dooku's amazing level of prowess that I have most of the quotes about him memorized. Meanwhile, please, dazzle us with your examples of giving Sidious his due. Would it be somewhere between "Sidious was a benefactor of circumstance" or "Sidious was plain lucky"?

What is this shit? Are you daft?

I believe the word you're looking for is "objective".

Let me spell it out for you:

Yoda grabbed Sidious' Sith Lightning with his hands a point blank range while barely hanging on to the slick senate pod with his toeclaws, absorbed the shock and the power and then forced it back, causing Sidious to freak out, and then released the energy forward, which shot Yoda back since he had no traction and nothing to hold on to while Sidious was saved by a handrail.

No, Janus, let me spell it out for you:

Yoda was disarmed by Darth Sidious, and caught the lightning in his now lightsaberless hands to prevent himself from being blown off. As the Dark Lord moves closer, Yoda leans back in effort and pain. Sidious leans closer, jeers and cackles. Yoda seems to get very pissed, and begins to push the lightning back. Sidious leans back in surprise and fear. The lightning coil is pushed in between the two (whereas, before, it was on top of Yoda lone) -- halts -- and detonates, blowing them both back.

You need to accept this as evident and move on. I remember Nai, myself and others reiterating this point from the movie, complete with scans and links, and yet you refused to admit it. Please, Escape... don't diminish character feats because you like Sidious. That's bias.

No, you need to start proving your claims or conceding them. In fact, Janus, I'll even offer you one better. You don't have to concede. All you have to do is just not even post again on the subject; people will understand. As for memory, I recall Nai, yourself, and "others" reiterating this failed point and eventually backing off of the subject. In fact, I recall posting a massive walkthrough of the fight on the old EOD forums, and you -- amazingly -- glimpsed over it. And, trust me, I don't need a lesson or an education in bias. You're a long-time example of it, and I don't want to be anything like it, regardless if I like a character or not.

LMFAO.

Is anyone else reading this?

Hey, everyone... did you all remember the scene in Episode III where Yoda caught a senate pod hurled right at him in the blink of an eye? If you have eyes and you watched the fight scene more than once, you might want to remind Escape how this scene really went and not how it appeared in his mind.

...After reviewing this particular scene on Youtube, Janus, the time it takes Yoda to stop and redirect the pod is actually 11 seconds. So, "in the blink of an eye"? Maybe if you're 100-and-change.

So, here we are. An example of your vaunted objectivity. I believe that this particular portion of the argument has collapsed, Janus. Try not to contradict yourself too much.

You seem to ignore something here, Escape: I do argue as objectively as I can. You can see above, my post was complete with direct sources, comparison of said sources, elaboration on my stances and my assertions, and clarification where you had merely glossed or "diminished character feats". The bottom line is that you are so much of a Sidious fanboy that your mind can't wrap around the fact that you have absolutely no conclusive evidence to support that Dooku is inferior to Sidious. In fact, C-canon material indicates that he's every bit the equal of someone who can kick Sidious' ass. You claim you don't want to flame me, and yet you come at me with the same boring routine as you did over a year ago.

Oh, according to you, I either ignore or miss a lot of things, Janus. I've accepted that you really don't respect my intelligence. As for what I can see above, I can see that your post was full of complete hyperbole, one source, elaboration involving the aforementioned singular source and complete hyperbole. In fact, what I found the most was blatant contradiction and -- someone lesser than myself might even go so far as to say, outright lies. But I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and conclude you were merely caught up in the moment.

As for the "bottom line", my fanboyism towards Sidious implies an illogical atmosphere. You can prove that to be true by debunking my points, which you've done anything but here. Instead, the only fanboy here seems to be you. You've used hyperbole and belittlement to support a character that you like and to try to downplay a character that you don't. Whereas I can claim -- and prove, with others' too -- that I have argued for Count Dooku and the Ancient Sith on occasions even when they aren't pitted against characters I like even less, where can you do the same?

I'm sure as hell not as smart as you, but such dominance isn't there in objectivity.

And now that I've been gone nearly as long, you've gotten used to asserting your own KMC dominance and status quo where no one questions Sidious' uberness because a bunch of random quotes from secondary source materials overblow his importance and uberness in the grand scheme of things.

...The billionth example of your vaunted objectivity, Janus (I think you've noted that I'll now use that expression with the utmost sarcasm). Pardon me if I believe that Darth Sidious is just a bit more essential to the "grand scheme of things" than Marka Ragnos or Count Dooku. You'll have to permit such foolishness on my behalf.

You also seem to think that DE Sidious and RotS Sidious are exactly the same in power, despite canon evidence to show otherwise and the fact that DE Sidious is nearly a generation older and wiser.

No, they aren't the same. I argued with Nebaris on that, before. He claimed that they were the same in power, merely DE Sidious being more knowledgeable. I disagreed. He himself says in Dark Empire that he has "grown stronger in the Force" since he and Luke last met.

Now, excuse me for not sharing your opinion, but it's just that you can't communicate it without downplaying everyone but your favorite character. It's amazing how you turned this whole argument into Dooku versus Sidious all over again. Really, your ego must be attached to that sad old Sith.

I'll look forward to where you can prove that I downplay Dooku and all of his achievements. I'll also look forward to you proving that you don't do the same for Sidious, instead of just saying that you don't. What's amazing, Janus, is that -- if I've turned this whole argument into Dooku versus Sidious -- you've participated in it and contributed to it. Perhaps this is also a sign of weakness of ego on your part? You could have just said, "No Escape, not here" or "Let's argue it elsewhere". But you didn't.

It's ill-advised to lecture me on my ego, Janus, when you grapple with problems of your own on the same issue. So, I guess I'll look forward to your response, and I do appreciate the ridiculous amount of time you've given me in responding. Let me know if I am to expect the same, please.

Janus, that is absolutely ridiculous. Darth Sidious's statements regarding Anakin's abilities and powers is far from being the same as Dooku gloating that he knows all about Ataru and "it's ridiculous acrobatics". For one, Sidious's thoughts and perceptions about Anakin aren't about to be born from predispositions and biases, now are they? There is no reason to even hint at that since George Lucas makes it damn clear that all Sidious wants is "ze ultimate apprentice!" or the closest thing from it, no matter who wields the power. That's why he was so willing to toss aside Vader for Luke in Return of the Jedi. All he has to say on the matter is based on observations and his knowledge of the boy itself, not embellishment on his behalf.

You have yet to prove that Dooku's claim is indeed "born from predispositions and biases", and since you have made this claim initially, the onus is on you. Please, prove up.

Secondly, the circumstances are very similar. Dooku, being a lightsaber master, Jedi master, and well-acquainted with numerous high-level jedi who either practice the form or have outright mastered it (Yoda, Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan, Anakin, Cin Drallig, etc.) is in a position of authority to at least say he "knows the style". To what extent is the crux of the debate, but if his proficiency against Yoda is any indicator, then yes- he does know enough about Ataru to defend against it and possibly prevail. That's the final point here which you shouldn't lose sight of, unless you'd like to back up your claim that Dooku somehow is an ignoramus about Ataru and this will lead to his defeat in microseconds.

Third, if you accept that Sidious is a figure of authority on Anakin's potential by virtue of his own knowledge, then you must readily accept that Yoda is a figure of authority about Dooku. And you apparently neglected this line in Dark Rendezvous, P. 8-9:

"Hm" Yoda stirred again with his stick. "Then best of all would be the strongest student, yes? Wisest? Most learned in the ways of the Force?" He nodded. "Best of all, Dooku would be!" His eyes found the other Jedi, one by one; and one by one, they looked away. "Our great student!" Yoda's ears flexed, then drooped. "Our great failure."

Notice that Mace Windu doesn't contradict this statement.

Meanwhile, Count Dooku's mental statement that he knows all about Ataru can -- and since we know that Dooku is legendary for his arrogance and hubris -- be born out of bias and conjecture.

Prove this.

This is the same Dooku who boasted that he was "more powerful than any Jedi, even [Yoda]" (and then proceeded to retreat from him after all his attempts to destroy the Jedi failed).

In a sense, Dooku is likely more powerful than any Jedi, save perhaps Yoda simply by virtue of his Force mastery, lightsaber mastery and his new use of the Dark Side. You could chalk his statement up to the Dark Side, idle boasting, or theatrics; in any case, it's not an open-shut case that his latter statement about knowing a lightsaber form is inherently wrong.

Simply because he says he knows all about the "ridiculous acrobatics!" -- note the disdain he has for the form -- doesn't mean that he does.

The statement by itself? No, it does not. But when you take into consideration additional material- how Dooku is the master of the lightsaber fighting form and how his master and his apprentices were both practitioners of the same style (Among other noted Jedi whom Dooku knew), and it becomes apparent that there's at least some weight to the statement.

I didn't, actually. All I said was that Dooku stating as much doesn't make it so. That both his mentor and his protege were Ataru-users suggests that he obviously has a great deal of knowledge regarding the form, and I never disputed it.

I did say, however, his knowledge is pointless and irrelevant if he can't exploit the weaknesses. And he never manages to do so.

This is ridiculous; you assume that out of the two fights he had with Yoda, both of which were prematurely broken off, that Dooku could never possibly conceivably find a weakness or at least hold his own until Yoda wore himself out (Which is a noted weakness in itself of Ataru form).

I didn't gloss over any details nor did I fail to recognize anything. Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't you one of the ones who credited Sidious's attempted retreat from Yoda as "cowardice", and yet when Dooku does the same, it's "prudence"? That is a blatant double standard and if you're going to use them, don't bother continuing this argument.

Nice misdirection. For clarification, I said Sidious was a coward because he ran from Yoda instead of clashing blades with him in a fairly equal setting. Dooku, on the other hand, fought Yoda until it became apparent both times that others were comnig (Either the entire Republic army or Obi-Wan and Anakin). The situations are nothing alike, so please stop the bluffing.

Count Dooku knew long before even his duel with Anakin and Obi-Wan that the Confederacy was losing the fight. Hence his retreat to the hangar in the first place. Bearing that in mind, he didn't have to stick around and waste precious minutes of his limited time "displaying his mastery" to Obi-Wan and Anakin. That he managed to easily disable Obi-Wan with the Force in Revenge of the Sith and -- according to you -- could do just the same with Anakin at that time, why didn't he do the same thing with those two on Geonosis? They were even weaker and less experienced.

No, instead, he chose to "sate his ego". And then when Yoda shows up -- the Confederacy even closer to defeat -- he sticks around to try and display his superiority. And then, all of his Force attacks fail, and he chooses to engage his one-time master in a lightsaber duel. And you expect me to believe that then at that moment, he decides to pull a narrow getaway? With all that on the line? The Death Star plans and his life?

No, I don't think so, Janus.

Believe what you want, as you always will. The point remains that there was more at stake than Dooku's ego and he did not stick around to chance it. He didn't lose his ass to Yoda (Who was unable to penetrate his defense) but he wasn't able to take him out either. Maybe he realized just how prolonged the combat would be after a minute or two and decided it was time to go; it certainly would make a good deal of sense. This is a situation of interpretation- you say he ran because he was too weak even though nothing in the battle indicated that he was in danger of losing; I submit that he decided to cut his losses because he didn't have the time to stick around and find out how the battle would pan out.

Keep in mind I've never said that Dooku would beat Yoda fair and square; Yoda is the superior Force-user and most likely going to be able to defeat Dooku in a pitched battle. But I'm fighting your ridiculous assertion that Yoda would wipe his ass with someone you've described as "one of the best Jedi in 25,000 years" in another thread.

Excellent. Then, I assume, you have evidence or some sort of proof to support your "nagging suspicion"? Perhaps a scene from the movie? -- No. Wait. The movie doesn't show it. Perhaps the novelization? -- No. Wait, the novelization doesn't mention it. Ah, third time's the charm. The script! --Yes, there's a scene that shows Yoda disarming Sidious. And yet, of course, that doesn't apply... why, it's entire account of the duel contradicts the movie, ergo, it must not be canon. Hell, it even shows Yoda letting Sidious go, despite being a metaphorical inch away from crushing him.

There's no scene from the movie showing it. There's also this problem you have with explaining why the hell Sidious would put his lightsaber away in combat with someone you cite as being the most dangerous Jedi in the era. Sidious just got his face rearranged by Mace Windu and put on his ass; I really don't think there's any logical reason to put his lightsaber away. So the point remains; either he stupidly put it away during combat or he lost it.

Though, I suppose it doesn't matter. Even if we accepted that Yoda disarmed Sidious, it would mean that the Sith Lord managed to escape his opponent -- his armed and faster opponent (who, according to you, is even stronger than he is in the Force) -- completely unarmed. And, somehow, he managed to put so much more distance between himself and Yoda before Yoda -- again, is the very least as quick as he is -- managed to catch up with him.

You see how that line of thought dies a tragic death.

You said it yourself- we didn't see the scene so there can be no presumptions either way. This all boils down to interpretation. You are a Sidious fan, and I expect you to assume everything in a positive light for Sidious. I am not so deluded.

I see. So, it doesn't work because General Grievous isn't Force-sensitive. Hmm. And, yet, he was still "more than a match" for most Jedi. That doesn't seem quite right; Dooku himself lamented in Labyrinth of Evil that he had been "hard-pressed" from time to time, so do me a favor and elucidate more on this topic.

Your initial point was that Grievous had a jack-of-all-trades knowledge of most of the forms. And you noted, this doesn't make him a sabergod. I agree. I pointed out that Dooku is more than just a jack-of-all-trades; he's a Sith lord and former Jedi master who, in your own words, was one of the "greatest" Jedi in the last 25,000 years. Before you get derailed, the final point is that Dooku's knowledge combined with his already formidable abilities makes him more likely to compete with an Ataru master than say, Obi-Wan or Grievous.

And yet when it comes down to the execution of that threat, Yoda tells Dooku that he doesn't want to hurt him. Dooku is more eager to go for the kill, whereas Yoda doesn't. Yoda only goes for the kill once, Janus, and I'm sorry to say that it isn't with Dooku. In fact, one could interpret Dark Rendezvous is the testimony that -- for once -- Yoda simply couldn't kill Dooku out of emotion.

Where are you getting this from? Yoda goes full out on Dooku, and it isn't until Dooku hits the button to activate the missile that he relents, because he has to concentrate to save everyone in the building. Yoda may genuinely have wanted to defeat or destroy Dooku in their battle, but once the others were in danger he had to be a Jedi again.

So keep this in perspective- you had asserted that Yoda didn't want to kill Dooku. But you have not proven that Yoda was fighting not to kill Dooku or otherwise maim him in the encounter. You still need to prove up.

After all, if he did, he would have continued to attack Dooku on Vjun. The Jedi philosophy is about sacrifice. Why should he suddenly have cared about endangering his life -- or even the lives of his companions -- since removing Dooku would deal a crippling blow to the Confederacy.

Do me a favor and explain that. I'm apparently too stupid to understand it myself.

It is a bit interesting in how you choose to view things, Escape. You assume that if Yoda had been fighting to kill Dooku, then he would have been willing to sacrifice Obi-Wan, Anakin, Wie, Scout, and Whirry (Whom he just put himself in mortal danger to save) just to keep on attacking until the missile hit a few minutes later.

Because that is basically what you're claiming. You don't provide support for why you think that Yoda would have to be a heartless killing machine with no concept of time or eminent danger just to understand that he should maim or kill Dooku in combat. You still haven't provided support for why Yoda was "holding back" in anything more than words alone.

You mean the missile that Dooku had placed in orbit on the possibility that he was "overpowered" (his words, not mine) by Yoda?

Yes, Dooku had a backup plan. OMFG he sux!!!111

Seriously, if Dooku didn't have a backup plan going in to fight Yoda, he'd be a moron. Sidious, on the other hand, had a backup plan in Anakin Skywalker. OMFG he sux 2!!!111

Perhaps it's my own fallibility in English, but again, where does it say that Mace "might" be the only one? Because it also seems to say that maybe Mace is the only one. That perhaps there are more.

Very ambiguous.

Oh, I dunno. I guess "perhaps only" is pretty indicative of the fact that Mace is really the only one close enough to be considered. The statement doesn't preclude that Mace is his equal, but it also doesn't claim that he is; that's the crux of it. The statement can be translated thus:

Among the Jedi, it's possible only Mace Windu was his equal on neutral ground.

or....

Among the Jedi, possibly Mace and some others who shall remain nameless are perhaps his equal on neutral ground.

The first one seems more intuitive and correct when you consider the context. You supposing that this statement implies other Jedi begs for proof when only Mace was named and named in a conditional statement at that.

The beauty of ambiguity. Yoda, not an expert, despite witnessing first hand the form performed? Hmm. All right.

lol.

Right back at you with Dooku knowing Ataru.

And the bottom line is that "deadliest of all" does not reference the form's capability in lightsaber duelling, whereas Makashi is described as the lightsaber duelling form. Sorry if that's too definitive for you.

So, you have a source claiming Vaapad is "the most dangerous" and a source claiming Makash is "the ultimate dueling form"

Don't strawman, Escape. It's always silly and not worth the effort.

You have a source (an in-universe fallible character who himself does not practice the form nor appear to have mastered it, obviously) making a general statement about the forms "danger" versus another source (from the creator's of the Lightsaber styles who are considered more reliable canon than an in-universe character's interpretation, since they created the forms) which basically says this:

Form II
The ultimate refinement of lightsaber-to-lightsaber combat became Form II, advancing the precision of blade manipulation to its finest possible degree and producing the greatest dueling masters the galaxy has ever seen.
Today Form II is an archaism studied by almost no one in the Jedi Order, because it is not relevant to current tactical situations, in which Jedi enemies rarely fight with lightsabers. Even with the resurgence of the Sith, confrontation of an enemy with a lightsaber is an exceedingly rare prospect for a Jedi, so they continue to focus on more practical Forms. Sith expecting to battle lightsaber-wielding Jedi, however, find Form II a powerful technique.

Form II is the chosen discipline of the machiavellian Separatist Count Dooku, who wields it to devastating effect. His utterly precise moves overwhelm Jedi who are not accustomed to the special requirements of lightsaber dueling. With Form II, Dooku holds his own even against Master Yoda.

. Perhaps it might just be as I've said all along? Vaapad and Shatterpoint allow Mace to negate any advantages his opponent might have? Explained by the fact that Sidious butchered his three companions (the last of which while sparring with Mace) and that he forced Mace, an aggressive fighter, into the main office before they managed to duel on equal terms?

There's absolutely nothing to indicate that Mace Windu's form and ability would negate Dooku's advantages of Force mastery and saber mastery. I'm not saying it won't be an epic fight (Because it will), but evidence doesn't support Mace clearly having the upper hand.

"Stupid"? Oh, I see. Well, I could reply that the same "stupid" guy used Dooku as a pawn for thirteen years, made him his lapdog, and then effortlessly tossed him aside once he outlived his usefulness. If that guy's "stupid", Dooku himself must be downright retarded. Lmao. I loved it especially when Dooku realized he was just a "pawn" and his life was a "joke" all part of Sidious's plan.

But, try as you might to claim otherwise, I do give other characters credit (something you need to work on).

Sidious was a manipulator and puppetmaster who engineered the greatest conflict the galaxy had seen in a thousand years. And he was still stupid enough to melt his own face while Mace was blocking his Sith Lightning. Being political savvy doesn't excuse you from oversights, Escape. No one says Hitler's not stupid for fighting a three-pronged war simply because he was doing everything right up until that point.

1. On-screen depiction of his fighting doesn't show him dueling Mace on equal terms. Unless you want to use the dreaded A>B>C argument, in which case, you'll be engaging in a double standard.

Apparently you lack eyes. Dooku's duelling ability shown onscreen is far superior to what Mace displays in both movies. Indeed, Dooku's fighting with Yoda is perhaps the fastest fighting in the entire saga, whereas Mace and Sidious poke around and swat at each other like a couple of retired cricket players. So unless you want to argue to me that Mace's G-canon display of lightsaber duelling surpasses Dooku's own, let's leave this one alone, yes?

Oh, Janus, Janus, Janus. You accuse me of "slandering" another character? "Utter" and "bullshit" come to mind. Jeez, didn't you just call say Sidious was 'stupid'? Haven't you agreed that he is merely the 'benefactor of circumstances'? A guy who just got damn lucky?

Try again. Perhaps when you're not winding down.

This is irrelevant jabbing. Please address the post next time instead of getting your panties in a bunch because someone doesn't verbally fellate Sidious.

And yet when it comes down to it, he chose not to.

Read above. This skewed stance has been addressed.

...And Dooku never attacked Sidious in his ten-year session of servitude. Seems, so far, we're on the same page. To try to debunk my point is to attack your own.

To be fair, Dooku never had a reason to- their goals were seemingly the same. Sidious had the details worked out, and Dooku notes that he wished to learn from Sidious. The situation is different; Naga Sadow and most of the Sith council blatantly didn't agree with Ragnos' conservative expansionist policies, yet they didn't attack him. Even when they had their own considerable powers and decades upon decades of dark side mastery under their belt, they were subservient to him even when he was a ghost who had no corporeal form. No one even rallied the masses, or staged or coup or anything. Ragnos was too cunning and too damn strong for them to do anything about his rule.

Dooku, on the other hand, thought he had the same idealistic goals as Sidious, and he could not learn from Sidious, take his footsteps as the mover behind the scenes, and then just march into where ever Sidious happened to be vacationing and attempt to destroy him. There's too much to risk even on the off-chance that he loses, and Dooku's clearly shown us that he doesn't risk more than he absolutely has to so long as he can live to fulfil his goals.

...And Sidious was noted to be "the most powerful" of Bane's rule of two (which includes Dooku), "the most powerful Sith Lord in history" by the tNEC, and Dooku himself acknowledges that he "would never question the power of Darth Sidious. The dark secrets at his command." Again, we're on the same page.

tNEC? You mean that which is written from an in-universe perspective by Voren Na'al, Archivist Emeritus of the Historical Council, Galactic Federation of Free Alliances? Oh yes, cuz that source is infallible and absolute.

And Dooku does note that Sidious has "dark secrets" at his command; this does not preclude that Dooku is more able in a duel. He can hold his own with Yoda in combat, as can Sidious.

The Sith function the same way, as they always have. If you're stronger, you kill. You seem to think that Sith principles have changed since then. Bane killed his peers when he saw how weak and foolish they were. You've implied Dooku is not only stronger than Sidious, but smarter as well. In your efforts to belittle the Dark Lord, you've destroyed your own argument.

The Sith do not function the same way; PT-era Sith are secretive and don't have personal fiefdoms, armies, a shitload of Force artifacts and other Sith to ally with. PT-era Sith have one master who effectively puts a stranglehold on the apprentice by limiting their knowledge and keeping leverage all the while trying not to wake up to a knife in the back. Dooku tells Ventress as much in DR. And I haven't implied that Dooku is smarter than Sidious, as that's not even a part of the debate.

Incorrect, I'm not comparing this to anything of the sort. All of Dooku's respect for Yoda is on a subconscious level. He desperately tries to think of himself as his former master's equal -- if not outright superior -- and yet he never can quite muster up the power to claim that title. Dooku seems to bare an inferiority complex.

Incorrect, Dooku notes mentally that he still calls Yoda master several times, and he refuses to blast his old master with lightning when the Jedi Master is at the window, precariously clutching the ledge. True, Dooku has an inferiority complex, but he also has a deep love for his master which mixes with this as well. The bottom line is as Qui-Gon noted: "Thinks he's setting up a trap, he does." Dooku tries to make himself believe that he's out to kill his former master, but he isn't, and this prevents him from doing it. He notes to Yoda that he has enough minions on-site which can overcome "even you", and he has the ability to blast his former master out of the window, or to impale him when he goes to save Whirry. You make a big deal of how Yoda didn't stop to strike down Dooku when the missile came if he "really was out to kill him", and yet in the same breath Dooku didn't stop to strike down Yoda while his old master reached out to stop the missile.

So I guess your points come to nothing.

Humor me by providing proof.

Proof? You own the book, Escape. Read the goddamn chapter again. It's apparent from our discussion that you've only either skimmed it or read it once a long long time ago, because you selectively forget things that benefit Dooku in this case.

Janus, you're using the A>B>C argument you've spent many arguments mocking others for using. Is that desperation or mere oversight? In any case, it doesn't apply. I'm sorry.

No, I'm not. A>B>C argument is a generalized argument that supposes simply because A defeated B who was defeated by C, A will always defeat C. This is not what I'm arguing, We know this doesn't make sense because circumstances can effect who wins, such as Obi-Wan beating out Anakin, yet Obi-Wan can't defeat Dooku. My point is that Yoda is definately a better duellist than Mace and stronger in the Force. This is not an issue, I'm sure you'll agree. Dooku can hold his own withYoda, and is not overpowered by him in any respect. Hence, it would seem that Dooku is at least competent enough to give Yoda an epic battle, though we may never know since all of their battles were cut short. Same with Mace versus Dooku. But in that case, Dooku already has one victory under his belt against Mace, and canon evidence which cites that he uses a superior lightsaber form for duelling, that even Yoda calls him the greatest in the Force among the Order to which Mace does not disagree, and c-canon sources which put them on equal grounds if nothing more.

So it comes to the conclusion that Dooku is at the very least Mace's equal, if not his better no matter how you roll the dice. Unless you want to make some bogus argument like "Shatterpoint/Vaapad FTW? Plus he's black!!!11" and thus Mace wins. I mean, really.

I want you to prove that the "superconductive loop" requires the Sith or dark side opponent to "give themselves into the dark side".

Episode II novelization, P. 330:

There was a time when Mace Windu had feared the power of the dark; there was a time when he had feared the darkness in himself. But the Clone Wars had given him a gift of understanding: on a world called Haruun Kal, he had faced his darkness and had learned that the power of darkness is not to be feared.

He had learned that it is fear which gives the darkness power.

He was not afraid. The darkness had no power over him. But-

Neither did he have power over it.

Vaapad made him an open channel, half of a superconducting loop completed by the shadow [Palpatine]; they became a standing wave of battle that expanded into every cubic centimeter of the Chancellor's office. There was no scrap of carpet nor shred of chair that might not at any second disintegrate in flares of red or purple; lampstands became brief shields, sliced into segments that whirled through the air; couches became terrain to be climbed for advantage or overleapt in retreat. But there was still only the cycle of power, the endless loop, no wound taken on either side, not even the possibility of fatigue.

Impasse.

.................

Please note I've skipped the bulk of this last post not out of laziness but more out of weariness. I'm really quite tired of repeating myself.

I don't care if you like him or not. You haven't been here, Janus. You might not believe it, but I regularly give credit to characters -- if you can even call them that -- I don't like. I've argued for Revan and Ragnos on numerous occasions despite my dislike for them.

Where have you ever done the same for Sidious? Hell, where have you even acknowledged his talents? He conquered the galaxy and wiped out the Jedi. Something Revan failed to do. Something Ragnos never even tried to do because he knew he couldn't win. Sidious faced similar odds and made fools out of the entire lot. He's the greatest Sith Lord, that is undeniable and unavoidable. And yet I distinctly recall you agreeing with Illustrious that most of it is credited to "sheer luck" and "circumstance". The fact also remains that, at the very damn least, he also happens to be one of the very most powerful

Again, it's the fact that you are galled because I don't respect Sidious for being a political savvy Sith Lord that so amuses me. We're in a Star Wars Versus debate forum where the focus is combat; I don't give a damn what political might Sidious has or how he orchestrated the fall of the Jedi Order. This isn't Feat Wars. I did agree with Illustrious that Sidious was a benefactor of circumstances, meaning that he was able to make his rise to power through one part calculation and two parts good fortune If you want to haggle that, fine. But not here. This is a combat thread.

That "chump among greats" succeeded. The others? They lived and died as total failures. Only Bane can really compare.

Seriously, Escape. Are you arguing temporal power or physical power? I think you're on the wrong page here. Sidious as of RotS IS a chump among greats when it comes to combat. The fact that he conquered the Republic from within and destroyed the Jedi Order through treachery is irrelevant; my statement has absolutely nothing to do with his methods, only his combat prowess. If you can't divorce combat prowess from how well he "****ed the system", then that's your issue.

Those three Jedi were also -- by the way -- referred to as "three of the greatest swordsmen that the Order ever produced" and the only reason they failed is that you have to be "Mace or Yoda" to compete with Sidious.

And those three were canonically proved to be ineffective and pathetic in their attempts at swordsplay, and nothing canonically substantiates this vague claim.

You'll notice that Dooku isn't among that number. In fact, if one could get particularly technical, neither do the other Sith Lords that you've mentioned.

lol

Yeah, a Death Star reactor shaft and a crippled Darth Vader isn't in that list either, huh?

Ridiculous. Haven't you implied that Dooku is not only stronger than Sidious, but smarter as well?

No.

In Labyrinth of Evil -- you "gloss" over this -- Dooku is now aware that the Jedi are hunting for Sidious. He also muses that if he doesn't alert Sidious to a new development, the Jedi would have the means to expose Sidious and destroy him. Count Dooku begins to doubt his master's chances completely. "And for a second, Dooku imagined the power that would be his."

And then he pushes the button to begin his transmission to Darth Sidious, promptly alerting his master about the danger that awaits him. And we know from canon sources that Tyranus has no scruples about betraying allegiances and deceiving. He is in an absolute position to benefit from Sidious's defeat, and yet... he chooses not to. Out of fear.

Fear? Fear of what? Of Sidious' combat prowess? Or fear of something else? Can you substantiate this vague 'fear' for us? With canon sources, please?

Lie.

Fact: Dooku is Machiavellian and a political idealist who lives in perpetual fear of his master -- Darth Sidious -- and, even when in a position to ruin him completely -- can't. Hell, he can't bring himself to do it even when he has the help of a formidable dark sider (Asajj) and a vast military machine at his disposal.

Again, you haven't substantiates this fear, Escape. Sidious has "dark secrets"... Wow. He knows "terrible things". He commands "armies". And nowhere ever does Dooku say anything remotely like "Darth Sidious is far better than me in personal combat." The very fact that he's willing to tackle Master Yoda whom he fears in personal combat adds to this. And Asajj and a battered CIS is hardly efficient enough to dislodge a Sith lord who's had his machinations in progress since before TPM.

Lie.

Fact: Count Dooku took an unnecessary chance at Geonosis. Instead of annihilating or soundly defeating Anakin and Obi-Wan (knowing full well that the CIS is getting its ass kicked), he chooses to square off with them one at a time and then he wants to dick around with Yoda for several minutes, only choosing to leave when he realizes he can't win.

Again, addressed above.

Lie.

Fact: Dooku didn't kill or betray Sidious when he had the powers of Asajj Ventress and the CIS at his total disposal (Dark Rendezvous), nor when the Jedi were hunting the Dark Lord down and close to exposing him; where Dooku "imagined all the power that could be his" (Labyrinth of Evil). Ergo, in a position to claim total victory, Dooku -- the supposedly "smarter" and "stronger" -- chose not to do so out of total fear of the man who disrespected him, mocked him, and used him as a tool for over a decade.

Since when is Asajj Ventress worth anything against Sidious' Republic and army anyways? And the CIS? Engaged and by all accounts overwhelmed by Republic navies and the Jedi. The raid on Coruscant was only successful because Sidious had planned it that way. And even then the CIS lost its collective ass in the fight.

What is that supposed to mean? Elaborate. Clarify. In fact, Dooku mentions in Labyrinth of Evil that he noticed Yoda and Sidious had "certain qualities in common". That neither were completely "frail by age or by the intensity required to master the Jedi and Sith arts".

Since when is being a "master of the Jedi and Sith arts" imply duelling mastery?

You know, this is about to end. I'm not debating beyond this point as it's absolutely pointless. I am not about to convince you of what you don't want to believe. And I've spent way too much time on this as it is.

hating to interrupt if you're not done, Janus-

A response to me forthcoming?

I would like to know if you want me to respond now or wait 'til you've completed the whole thing.

Actually, I've concluded about halfway through that I'm just sick of the whole argument because we've been waging it for over a year now, the three of us. It's like some sick version of Gulliver's Travels with the fight over how to break the egg properly. I'll be honest- you can forego a rebuttal because I'm pretty much done with this debate.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
Actually, I've concluded about halfway through that I'm just sick of the whole argument because we've been waging it for over a year now, the three of us. It's like some sick version of Gulliver's Travels with the fight over how to break the egg properly. I'll be honest- you can forego a rebuttal because I'm pretty much done with this debate.

Alrighty. 🙂

No harm intended, Janus. I've become a KMC pacifist anyways, so it wasn't going to lead to frustration, hard feelings, anger, or a flame war.

Edit: Though, I do quite disagree with your assessment that I don't want to believe it. You haven't been here. When presented with proof, I will indeed shut the hell up. The fact that I've even argued for Mace on another thread this very night ought to hint that I'm not quite as biased or as stubborn as you think. But that's another debate in itself. 😐

I have an idea:

Janus, why don't you try signing on to MSN sometimes so the three of us can have a three way talk in real time? Might help to work out the issues here

That sounds good. I'm heading out tonight, but tomorrowish.

Alright, sounds good.

Escape and I chat on MSN a lot, but my MSN is:
[email protected]

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Alright, sounds good.

Escape and I chat on MSN a lot, but my MSN is:
[email protected]

Word. I'm a lot cooler than LS is though. 😐

Maybe it's just me but I don't know why anyone would want to debate trivial matters more than they have to. I mean, that's what this forum is for... I wouldn't ever bring up this crap outside of the forum (except to my girlfriend who thinks I need to get a life and stop being emotionally cut off).