I think it is becoming dangerously close to a vs. thread, but more specifically as his Master's Master and as a man who performed apparently greater force feats I don't really see much of an argument here. Dooku is clearly portrayed as a superior force user- as ever, the simple creation of a powerful foe so as to better demonstrate the heroism of the good guys. It's not much good if the good guys are simply better.
I think it is becoming dangerously close to a vs. thread, but more specifically as his Master's Master
Which means what exactly? Master are only ever shown giving their padawans guidance and such; never training them in combat. The only one shown to do that is Yoda, training a class of younglings. So Dooku would logically have no special insight into how Obi-Wan fights or anything.
At best, the position proves that Dooku has had a higher number of years of training, study, and experience than Obi-Wan has. Which again, means little, given that pure talent, dedication, a greater quality of training, experience and study, and fewer unrelated responsibilities can make up for a lack of experience. For one, Obi-Wan's 3 years of war experience is a huge advantage that Dooku logically wouldn't share, given how peaceful the era had apparently been before the sith had revealed themselves. He's certainly displayed as an extremely talented Jedi in TPM, where for a short period of time he's able to perform far greater than his very powerful and much older Master against Darth Maul, given how he was able to completely put him on the defencive, s;ice his saber in half, kick him to the ground, and have the Sith Lord running away from his onslaught (albeit he was clearly in a skill augmented rage). Dooku would also logically have duties that would detract from his Jedi growth, moreso than other Jedi, given his status on his homeworld.
and as a man who performed apparently greater force feats I don't really see much of an argument here.
Displayed greater force feats? How so? Obi-Wan's shown to be able to fling Grievous around as if he were a rock (a feat achieved whilst Sidious had been diminishing the Jedi's ability to use the force), sense the mass effects of Order 66 which is insight into the force rivalled only by Yoda, master the ability to become a force spirit which is clearly shown to be a very obscure and advanced Jedi ability. Hell, as a padawan he was capable of using the force to move faster than the human eye can see, and surely I don't need to remind anyone about how he was able to use the force to propel himself up and out of the reactor shaft that Darth Maul had pushed him into, draw his Master's lightsaber to his hand, and slash Darth Maul into two pieces before the Sith could even react to him...
Dooku is clearly portrayed as a superior force user- as ever, the simple creation of a powerful foe so as to better demonstrate the heroism of the good guys. It's not much good if the good guys are simply better.
Whilst that's a trend in many pieces of fiction, it's hardly absolute, and really not necessary given that the real villains in the saga -- Sidious and Vader -- quite clearly are displayed in such a sense. Plus, Dooku's still clearly displayed as the better fighter, given how he was able to simultaneously knock Anakin back and completely disable Obi-Wan from their fight, so it really wouldn't be that big a deal to have Obi-Wan just be more powerful with the force; there's more to Jedi combat than just force combat. Plus, you're looking at this from a behind-the-movie perspective here, when the thread and I are clearly asking for an in-movie look at things.
So yeah, I stand by what I've been saying: Obi-Wan is logically more powerful than Dooku with the force as far as G-Canon is concerned. I heard that Dooku is extremely powerful in the AU/EU, so he might have Obi-Wan beat there, but not according to just the movies.
As to your first point, Star Wars doesn;t really work like that. asters are clearly portrayed as more powerful than their apprentices- it takes a very specific example like Anakin to change that rule, and even that seemed very questionable compared to Obi-Wan.
I don't really see flinging Grievous around as that impressive, to be honesat. Yeah, handy, but Dooku's lightning zap and knocking over that pillar takes the day, I feel. Your thing about him sensing Order 66 seems to be purely speculation on your part- I am sure plenty of Jedi would have done that if they were alive.
Meanwhile his jump out of the pit was only the same sort of thing Luke was doing, when barely trained.
And it is a trend common enough and relevant enough to Star Wars to apply in this case unless you can very much show the contrary, which you cannot.
You post way too much, btw. Shows a fuzzy argument, and most will not bother to read it. You should keep things much shorter.
As to your first point, Star Wars doesn;t really work like that. asters are clearly portrayed as more powerful than their apprentices- it takes a very specific example like Anakin to change that rule, and even that seemed very questionable compared to Obi-Wan.
So would you consider Qui-Gon more powerful than Darth Vader, or even Obi-Wan? Would you consider Yoda's Master to be more powerful than Yoda? Really, you're going to have to start citing examples. Obi-Wan, as a padawan, certainly performed better than his Master had against another force user. There is the Anakin example, as you yourself pointed out. Plus, taking into account the fact that Obi-Wan, by RotS, would be in the upper stage of his development (given his age, the fact that he was now a Jedi Master, his war experience, among other things) the Master > Padawan "trend" would be even more inapplicable.
I don't really see flinging Grievous around as that impressive, to be honesat. Yeah, handy, but Dooku's lightning zap and knocking over that pillar takes the day, I feel.
Hardly. Lightning, a great power to be sure, is only ever shown to be effective, on Dooku's part, when Anakin runs at him wildly. Obi-Wan was certainly able to block it with little effort, Yoda was able to simply absorb it with his hands, and it's hardly testament to great strength in the force or anything given we know little of its potency; it's simply one of the many powers that the darkside grants you.
Collapsing the crane really isn't that impressive. All that Dooku really does, is break through the bottom of it, which results in the crane collapsing. Obi-Wan was able to fling Grievous, at an extremely great speed, in defiance of gravity, with a distance of about 50 feet (would have been more if Grievous hadn't slammed into the ceiling). Plus, there is all the other stuff I mentioned, which certainly suggests that Obi-Wan possesses greater ability with the force than Dooku does.
Your thing about him sensing Order 66 seems to be purely speculation on your part- I am sure plenty of Jedi would have done that if they were alive.
I never said that he and Yoda were the only ones to sense the effects of Order 66, but that they're the only two shown to do so. What you are sure of means nothing without evidence. They're the only two jedi that have been put on that level of force insight.
Meanwhile his jump out of the pit was only the same sort of thing Luke was doing, when barely trained.
Yes, and if you'll notice, Luke possessed incredible strength in the force, and had been receiving quick and essential training from yoda himself. He is, in the same movie, briefly able to overpower Vader in saber combat. What you say hardly detracts from what Obi-Wan does as a padawan.
And it is a trend common enough and relevant enough to Star Wars to apply in this case unless you can very much show the contrary, which you cannot.
No. You originally made the point, ergo the burden of proof is on you. High probability is not proof of the certainty, meaning your argument, once again, fails. It's not up to me to absolutely disprove an in-absolute argument when the burden of proof is on you.
You post way too much, btw. Shows a fuzzy argument, and most will not bother to read it. You should keep things much shorter.
Yeah, perhaps you should take a trip to the comicbook versus forum if you really think I post too much. Anyways, I may post a lot, but that's testament to the fact that there's a lot of substance to my argument. Even still, my post was only 45 lines long. Really not that much to read; clearly you managed to do so.
Yes indeed- not going to bother debating with you until you find a way to stick the a point and not meander so much, nmens. Besides which, I'd only be re-posting what I have already said, so refer to all that. You talk much but actually say almost nothing- the very last thing it ever is doing for you is showing any substance.
I am absolutely confident that my points stand on their own merits and your counter-comments are worthless.
Agreed.
Plus, you have two films showcasing the point.
Now in AOTC it's a saber battle, but in ROTS Dooku beats Obi-Wan easily, using only the Force to take him out. (Force choke, thrown with the Force, and dropped the ledge on him with the Force.)
In both cases, Obi-wan went into the fight with a 2 to 1 advantage, and in ROTS, Anakin doesn't get blasted into a wall. He's actually in the fight to help. And they both are stronger and more advanced from 3 years of warfare.
Obi-wan gets overpowered by Dooku's force abilites, plain and simple.
In any event, both times we see Dooku fight Obi-wan, whether with sabers or the force, with backup or without, Dooku wins.
I think that answers the question posed by the thread starter. 🙂
Closing?
Yes indeed- not going to bother debating with you until you find a way to stick the a point and not meander so much, nmens. Besides which, I'd only be re-posting what I have already said, so refer to all that. You talk much but actually say almost nothing- the very last thing it ever is doing for you is showing any substance.I am absolutely confident that my points stand on their own merits and your counter-comments are worthless.
You know Ush, honestly, I'm surprised at you. I'd expect more from a senior moderator on these boards, but whatever, if you really don't want to admit defeat, just label my posts as too long and not to the point, great tactic!
Agreed.Plus, you have two films showcasing the point.
Now in AOTC it's a saber battle, but in ROTS Dooku beats Obi-Wan easily, using only the Force to take him out. (Force choke, thrown with the Force, and dropped the ledge on him with the Force.)
In both cases, Obi-wan went into the fight with a 2 to 1 advantage, and in ROTS, Anakin doesn't get blasted into a wall. He's actually in the fight to help. And they both are stronger and more advanced from 3 years of warfare.
Obi-wan gets overpowered by Dooku's force abilites, plain and simple.
In any event, both times we see Dooku fight Obi-wan, whether with sabers or the force, with backup or without, Dooku wins.
I think that answers the question posed by the thread starter.
Closing?
Good God SithSaber, how can you still be posting that after having it dismantled twice in a row. I mean seriously, don't you actually realise how badly that argument was destroyed, repeatedly? If you really feel the need to post something, than reply to me where I originally replied to that exact argument, because bringing it up again and again makes you look like a fool, no offense of course.
Originally posted by nmensfinest
You know Ush, honestly, I'm surprised at you. I'd expect more from a senior moderator on these boards, but whatever, if you really don't want to admit defeat, just label my posts as too long and not to the point, great tactic!Good God SithSaber, how can you still be posting that after having it dismantled twice in a row. I mean seriously, don't you actually realise how badly that argument was destroyed, repeatedly? If you really feel the need to post something, than reply to me where I originally replied to that exact argument, because bringing it up again and again makes you look like a fool, no offense of course.
I'm ending this thread here and now.
Dooku beat Obi want fair and square (actually unfair, since he had anakin) in ROTS using only the Force.
This makes him a better, and stronger Force user.
Obi-Wan DID NOT "sense" Order 66 like Yoda did, so stop posting that.
He was climbing up a rock and got blasted out of nowhere by a cannon. Had he not fallen into the water, he would've died.
Or had he been on the ground around all the troops, he would've died.
NOWHERE is he shown to have "sensed" the effects of Order 66, like Yoda did when he dropped his cane.
In fact, wasn't Obi-Wan the FIRST Jedi attacked in that sequence, and caught completely off guard? stupid n00b.
Second, there was NOT a "surprise attack by Dooku" on Obi-wan.
He runs up the stairs, and has a nice overhead chop at Dooku, then gets choked, thrown, and knocked out by the ledge.
CHECKMATE.
I actually went back through the thread and counted: 15 people agreed with me and 2 with you. (and they were joking/being dumb)
Most important, the film. It speaks for itself:
-1:20 to -1:06 is a doozy, you should check it out.
Closing?
Originally posted by sithsaber408
I'm ending this thread here and now.
I laughed out loud.
Dooku beat Obi want fair and square (actually unfair, since he had anakin) in ROTS using only the Force.
This makes him a better, and stronger Force user.
Read the above.
Now, I can understand that you may find the whole concept of complex thought a bit alien, so I'll try and explain it nice and slow for ya.
Now, at best, when one force user overpowers another force user with the force, a superiority in force ability can only be gauged if the overpowered was able to apply a force defence (given that if the overpowered hadn't applied a force defence, no comparison can be drawn between the two in respect to their force abilities), and even then, it's a bit iffy, given that we know little of the nature of the force defences and attacks in question, and we could never accurately estimate exactly how much effort they put in for example, or how much concentration they were able to apply, or a number of other factors.
However, in the face of the unknown, the logical standpoint to take would be the neutral one, so let's say that as long as force user A overpowers force user B, there is evidence of superiority.
However, without proving that force user B was able to apply a force defence, you have no argument.
I'll give you an example: let's say that Dooku force choked Obi-Wan to death while Obi-Wan was asleep. Would you consider him the stronger force user out of the two based on that alone? Of course not, as he was asleep, and could not apply a defence (he lacked the concentration to do so, so to speak).
Now, while this example is a little more extreme than what actually happened, you'll actually find an absolutely parallel connection between the two. The only difference, is that Dooku, in this case, forced Obi-Wan into the position of no such concentration. Thus, all that him overpowering Obi-Wan speaks for is his attributes that allowed him to force Obi-Wan into that position, and sadly for you, those attributes in no way speak for force ability (but concentration, fighting tactics, dueling ability).
Makes sense?
What you're saying would be like saying that Palpatine is more powerful than Yoda because he overpowered Yoda with lightning at the beginning of their duel, and then going on to say the opposite because of how Yoda subsequently overpowered him with a force push. ZOMG, teh paradox!!
The point, essentially, is that a surprise attack means jack in the relevant context.
Obi-Wan DID NOT "sense" Order 66 like Yoda did, so stop posting that.He was climbing up a rock and got blasted out of nowhere by a cannon. Had he not fallen into the water, he would've died.
Or had he been on the ground around all the troops, he would've died.
NOWHERE is he shown to have "sensed" the effects of Order 66, like Yoda did when he dropped his cane.
In fact, wasn't Obi-Wan the FIRST Jedi attacked in that sequence, and caught completely off guard? stupid n00b.
Again, you're missing what I've stated quite clearly multiple times. Obi-Wan was able to sense the planet scale deaths that were caused by Order 66, which is a level of force sense displayed only by himself, Yoda, and Palpatine.
Second, there was NOT a "surprise attack by Dooku" on Obi-wan.He runs up the stairs, and has a nice overhead chop at Dooku, then gets choked, thrown, and knocked out by the ledge.
CHECKMATE.
I'm not saying that the lightsaber attack itself was a surprise attack, which you clearly appear to think is the case, but the force move which Dooku initiated just as Obi-Wan was in the middle of parrying Dooku's strikes. The surprise attack in question was the force manoeuvre, which completely took Obi-Wan off guard. It speaks in no way for any force superiority, but, as I said, a superiority in tactics, concentration, and dueling ability. As I've said, Dooku was clearly the better fighter, but not the more powerful force user.
I actually went back through the thread and counted: 15 people agreed with me and 2 with you. (and they were joking/being dumb)
There's a reason why appeal to majority is a logical fallacy, Sithsaber. There hasn't been a single person here who's justified that opinion without having the justification torn apart at some point in this thread.
Most important, the film. It speaks for itself:
Spoken truly by someone who has no idea what "substantiate" means.
Closing?
lol, this truly did make me lmao. You thinking that you actually provided an undeniable and irrefutable argument is truly hilarious.