Goku vs Pre Crisis Superman

use what? the kamehameha wave? yeah, not really the point. Point is, none of Goku's energy based attacks are going to work on Superman; so basically this fight comes down to...

Physical strength - Superman moves planets.
Speed - faster than light and it applies to his thoughts
Durability - completely resistant to EVERYTHING given he can regenerate from damn near nothing

PC Superman wins in every statistical category. Not to mention he doesn't need to breathe at all so it doesn't matter if Goku blows up the planet. I'm pretty sure PC Supes could mindrape which Goku has no defense. He spits out hurricanes. Yeah, Superman pretty much wtfpwns Goku.

Originally posted by Parmaniac
IIRC yes he did and Piccolo later too in Z 😂

Are you kidding the moon's got an insane healing factor.

Originally posted by Estacado
Didn't Master Roshi blow up the moon with a kamehameha in the original DB when goku turned into ozaru?

Correct. Roshi could have killed Goku with his best Kamehameha, but decided to turn his attack on the moon instead, and revert him back to normal.

Roshi was also fast enough to pluck machinegun shells out of the air, ala Flash. And for the record, that makes him faster than early post crisis Wally West, who wasn't fast enough to catch bullets with his bare hands until quite a bit later into his career as Barry's replacement.

Originally posted by marwash22
use what? the kamehameha wave? yeah, not really the point. Point is, none of Goku's energy based attacks are going to work on Superman; so basically this fight comes down to...

[b]Physical strength - Superman moves planets.
Speed - faster than light and it applies to his thoughts
Durability- completely resistant to EVERYTHING given he can regenerate from damn near nothing

PC Superman wins in every statistical category. Not to mention he doesn't need to breathe at all so it doesn't matter if Goku blows up the planet. I'm pretty sure PC Supes could mindrape which Goku has no defense. He spits out hurricanes. Yeah, Superman pretty much wtfpwns Goku. [/B]

Also in DBZ they use (i think)ki energy.This isn't an apples to apples situation so unless supes has taken high level ki blasts before you really can't say they don't affect him.

Originally posted by Black bolt z
[b]Physical: I'd say supes is slightly higher but not that much[/B]

Originally posted by Black bolt z
[b]Speed: In DBZ fights happen where you can't even see it.Goku can move faster simply through spontaneous teleportation[/B]

Originally posted by Black bolt z
[b]durabilityA high enough amped goku can easily take an attack that would bust many planets. I admit supes has higher but goku is no pushover himself.[/B]

Originally posted by Black bolt z
Also in DBZ they use (i think) ki energy.This isn't an apples to apples situation so unless supes has taken high level ki blasts before you really can't say they don't affect him.

I'm not saying Goku is a weakling, he just doesn't compare to PC Superman.

If you say Goku is a weakling you don't know Goku.IMO SS3 Goku could beat supes but thats my opinion vs. your opinion.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
The DBZ moon is a jobber though. 😛

Originally posted by Black bolt z
If you say Goku is a weakling you don't know Goku.

😕

Originally posted by marwash22
I'm not saying Goku is a weakling

Originally posted by Black bolt z
IMO SS3 Goku could beat supes but thats my opinion vs. your opinion.

True, it is opinion vs opinion. However, my opinion is based on fact, not blind adulation. I know I'm fairly new around here but the way debate usually works is that both sides present facts and whoever has the most indisputable evidence wins... In your opinion, Goku > PC Superman, where's the evidence that supports your assertion?

Originally posted by marwash22
😕

True, it is opinion vs opinion. However, my opinion is based on fact, not blind adulation. I know I'm fairly new around here but the way debate usually works is that both sides present facts and whoever has the most indisputable evidence wins... In your opinion, Goku > PC Superman, where's the evidence that supports your assertion?

You asked before what's wrong with your debating. I'll assume you're arguing and good faith, and tell you:

You asked for examples of Superman being defeated by energy attacks. When the evidence is presented, you ask for examples that have no "radiation", even though radiation doesn't affect Superman unless it's red solar radiation, and so isn't particularly relevant.

You also used Juggernaut reacting to Colossus's optic blast as an example in Supermans defense, yet Juggernaut has a unique kind of durability through magic that makes him basically immune to conventional physical damage. E.g., someone like Lobo can hit Juggernaut all day, and not injure him or knock him out. The same isn't true if Lobo hits Superman all day.

Different kinds of durability.

Travel speed - Superman
Senses - Superman
Physical strength - Superman
Combat speed - Goku
Energy output - Goku
Versatility - Goku
Fighting skills - Goku
Durability - Superman
Endurance - Superman
Power source - Goku

Goku wins.

Originally posted by galactusischere
Travel speed - Superman
Senses - Superman
Physical strength - Superman
Combat speed - Goku
Energy output - Goku
Versatility - Goku
Fighting skills - Goku
Durability - Superman
Endurance - Superman
Power source - Goku

Goku wins.

Also are fighting skills alone really enough to compensate for Superman's insane durability, strength, and endurance advantage?

Nightwing may be more skilled than Aquaman but he isnt winning a h/h confontation.

Also how is Goku more versatile when he's limited to three moves: teleport, punches and kicks, and energy blasts? Superman has in addition to his fists freeze breath, hypnosis, heat vision, and other powers (some goofy, others useful).

Originally posted by cdtm
You asked for examples of Superman being defeated by energy attacks. When the evidence is presented, you ask for examples that have no "radiation", even though radiation doesn't affect Superman unless it's red solar radiation, and so isn't particularly relevant.

You're wrong, i never changed what i asked to be presented with. This is what i said...

Originally posted by marwash22
energy blasts won't do a damn thing to Superman. Honestly, do you not get this? A ki blast/kamehameha wave is nothing but pure force; it's like Cyclops optic blast and Superman would just shrug it off.

All the scans people posted in response to this, were fraudulent. They were invalid examples because every single one of them contained Superman being effected by energy beams that contained some form of radiation. The Orion scan, that was clearly not a energy beam made of pure force and the same goes for the Darseid scans. Again, DBZ characters energy attacks are pure force (nothing more)... please, show me an example of a pure force beam doing anything outside of momentarily halting Superman's progress.

you can't, because it doesn't exist. No (non-radiated) energy beam can hurt Superman and that's precisely what DBZ character's use.

Originally posted by cdtm
You also used Juggernaut reacting to Colossus's optic blast as an example in Supermans defense, yet Juggernaut has a unique kind of durability through magic that makes him basically immune to conventional physical damage. E.g., someone like Lobo can hit Juggernaut all day, and not injure him or knock him out. The same isn't true if Lobo hits Superman all day.

Different kinds of durability.

It's Cyclops, not Colossus.

Anyhow, the example correlates perfectly; the form of resistance may be different, but the outcome is the same. Juggernaut can walk right through Cyclops' optic blast (a beam that is pure force) with no damage, due to his mystical properties. However, he can be smacked around or moved via telekinesis.

Superman can walk right through Goku's kamehameha wave (a beam that is pure force) with no damage, due to his physiological makeup. However, he can be smacked around or moved via telekinesis.

Apart from why the two characters are invulnerable, it's exactly the same.

@ galactusischere

Combat speed - Goku... nonsense! PC Supes moves beyond the speed of light, this includes his brain activity which controls his reaction time. Combate Speed... Superman. Goku is the better fighter, but his reaction time is not better than Superman's.

Energy output - Goku... irrelevant. because, as previously stated on multiple occasions. none of Goku's attacks will effect Superman. Even the spirit bomb (which is Goku's only attack that contains some form of radiation), uses mostly, the energy from the sun... lol, that's not gonna do shit but make Superman stronger.

Versatility - Goku... please explain.

Fighting skills - Goku... irrelevant when your opponent (PC Superman) can take missiles to the face and shrugs off atomic bombs.

Power source - Goku... What are you talking about? Please explain.

The Spirit Bomb won't even work on Superman. If beings of pure heart can push or redirect it like Krillen and Gohan did, the ultimate boyscout will be able to do the same. Even if such a maneuver could harm Superman, do you really think Superman will let Goku cry out "Lend me your energy!" and amp?

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
The Spirit Bomb won't even work on Superman. If beings of pure heart can push or redirect it like Krillen and Gohan did, the ultimate boyscout will be able to do the same. Even if such a maneuver could harm Superman, do you really think Superman will let Goku cry out "Lend me your energy!" and amp?

http://www.motifake.com/image/demotivational-poster/small/0902/spirit-bomb-demotivational-poster-1235368001.jpg

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
The Spirit Bomb won't even work on Superman. If beings of pure heart can push or redirect it like Krillen and Gohan did, the ultimate boyscout will be able to do the same. Even if such a maneuver could harm Superman, do you really think Superman will let Goku cry out "Lend me your energy!" and amp?

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Superman wouldn't give him the time to gather the power. One of the dumbest villain moments in the history of fiction was Frieza giving Goku hours to prepare his ultimate attack.

Exactly.

I have a hard time imagining New Earth/Mainstream Kal-El losing to Goku. PC Superman even more so.

Most of Goku's most powerful attacks require time and focus, both of which PC Superman isn't giving him. Hell, I doubt Goku can even withstand a prolonged burst of Heat Vision.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
I have a hard time imagining New Earth/Mainstream Kal-El losing to Goku.