Super Buu vs Thanos

Originally posted by SeerQris
I'm sorry for resurrecting this comment I just found it so absurd and wanted to comment.

You can honestly have the oppinion that it was just trash Talk Cresh, but what remains a reality is that he was moving at light speeds and out maneuvered by Goku. This truth does not depend on your oppinion of how you felt about it unless you are Franklin Richards.

So its YOUR opinion that contradicts what's established.

Cresh, come on bruh. 😆

Where is the proof that it was trash talk. i happened to miss that part. As far as I am concered Jeice was moving at light speeds.

And No Vegita telling a lie is not the proof

Dang, I'm sleepy. Maybe I will actually get into this thread as opposed to my minor comments. 23 pages though UGH...

G'night

Originally posted by illadelph12
Cresh, come on bruh. 😆

Originally posted by SeerQris
Where is the proof that it was trash talk.

Originally posted by SeerQris
i happened to miss that part. As far as I am concered Jeice was moving at light speeds.

Originally posted by SeerQris
And No Vegita telling a lie is not the proof

Originally posted by Creshosk
I'm sorry but burden of prrof is on your shoulders to prove that his claims were true. Back up his claims. Otherwise what he said is not true and thus he was 'trash talking'. Because as was noted in the manga version at any rate te claim was not made that he could move at light speeds, but that he was the fastest in the universe, which was proven a fabrication when goku beat him and THEN Freeza matched Goku. Thus Freeza was faster than he was.

Accepting hyperbole does not make it true. Prove that he was. Because bragging to an enemy is a perfect scenerio for trash talking.

It was Anime dub bullshit...

Originally posted by Evil_Ash
It was Anime dub bullshit...

If that is true I have no response.

Question: So in this debate are we not talking about the anime characters or the manga versions of themselves? I had the impression that we were talking about the show. I have not read the Manga and know dang sure that most people have not.

Originally posted by Evil_Ash
It was Anime dub bullshit...

Yeah I pretty much figured as much.

Which will lead us into another continuity divergence.

And I'll bad mouth dubs and point out how bad the earlier ones with the homophobia and decisions that were really bad.

Then eventually the OP will come in and mention that its the dubbed version. Then I'll retort with pointing out that all the dub did was change the dialouge and not what was happening, and further challenge anyone who tries to use this bunk as evidence that the events were unchanged and that only the dialouge was changed, the way they talk about what was happening, not what was actually happening. Which would affirm the trash talk.

I would require at least some sort of concrete proof that they could go at lightspeeds. They would refuse and continue to give me extrapolation and trash talk which they would show their gulability by beleiveing they were telling the truth. I'd challenge them to prove their claims and the characters claims to which they'd commit the Petitio Principii fallacy of using that which is in question as evidence.

And we go back to square one.

why am i still awake?

There is a level of agnosticism going on that will make everything impossible to prove at this rate.

I'll elaborate more later.

Originally posted by Soljer
No one pointed out to me where in the manga Goku was 'punched through.' Nor where it said Butta could go lightspeed...

Also; I don't think I ever said they were class fifty/fourty/whatever.

Just significantly weaker than Superman/Hulk/Thor/Et cetera.

This only happened in the anime, as you know in the manga he just fought to fast for them to react and blocked all their hits, and was SEEN dodging all their attacks (and taking a couple) And Butta was only stated to be the fastest in the universe which is weird cause they must have noticed Captain Ginyu was faster, and freeza, then after the fight Goku of course.

As for the class 40-50 thing, I think its safe to assume that in their bases and the humans and Namekians are, but Super Saiyan's Buu's Cell's etc are class 100's Piccolo is most likley class 100 aswell after merging with Kami. But I wouldn't put them on Supermans level...

lol maybe we should also state whether we are using the anime dub or the original Japanese material, because if we go by the dub, well Kid Buu is the strongest Buu, and of course this is where all the "lightspeed" feats come from.....so this is why DBZ was banned.

I don't get why you're using the manga to disprove something about the Anime... When it's the anime version we're talking about.

Yeah. I think it should be mandatory to state which version of the character is being used in the topic.

I'll add a caveat.

After careful reading and consideration I have given up trying to prove that any of the DBZ characters can move at light speed. But instead I have chosen to claim Agnosticism on the whole subject.

It is impossible to prove the light speed claim because it is not directly stated as such across all the DBZ mediums. There is no comic narrator that lets me know that X is moving at light speeds and it has been shown that I cannot trust the anime as there are some cases of America adding things in. Be that as it may I have not gone so far as to believe that some DBZ characters cannot move at light speeds.

I do not buy into the logic because x cannot be proven x is not true. Sure if x cannot be proven it is not good material to use in an argument but it says nothing about x’s truth value. X’s truth value is only effected when it has been proven false. And I also do not buy the whole trash talk argument, that argument is so ridiculous that if anyone were to take up such a stance it may be impossible to prove anything. I could always counter with they could have just been lying etc…which is speculation at best until PROVEN otherwise. To say that someone was lying means that the burden of proof shifts to whoever makes the claim and they will have to prove that the character was lying not the defending side. If I say that you are lying and don’t prove it then the only thing everyone has to go off of is my word, I also cannot use someone else’s lies to show that you have lied too, it doesn’t work that way. .... or are some of you suggesing that it's Guilty until proven innocent?

What I did buy was the America Dub argument, meaning that America could have input false information into the series. That fact causes me to believe that truth hovers somewhere above us at the moment thus my now Agnostic stance; the only way we can get an answer is by asking Akira Toriyama himself. I do not have smoking gun evidence that light speed is going on in the anime because I have no speedometer and no Overlord narrator to tell me it's happening. However there are things which cause me to believe that it may be happening. I have seen teleportation, invisible combat, humans appearing to stand still while they are actually moving omega fast, and etc. These bits of information lead me to suggest that Akira Toriyama would indeed confirm that light speed was a feat of Goku’s.

So, was all this light speed talk or Goku talk suppose to somehow tie back to Super Buu and Thanos? If not I am very sorry for this off topic crazyness.

Originally posted by Sparkz

As for the class 40-50 thing, I think its safe to assume that in their bases and the humans and Namekians are, but Super Saiyan's Buu's Cell's etc are class 100's Piccolo is most likley class 100 aswell after merging with Kami. But I wouldn't put them on Supermans level...

Chi vastly increases "Power", Think blackbolts master-fist tehcnique. Though he may not be able to lift as much as say hulk, or superman, because he is able to amplify the impact of his punches, he essentially may still be not as good a lifter as say hulk, or thing. Same goes for Iron fist (considering he isint amplifying his strength) Etc. Alot of people seem to forget that, not neccessairily you i mean, just in general.

Actually one, i forgot what else i was gona say

Also, Cresh,

Originally posted by ExtraMision5555
Again, place manhattan atop mount raineer. Replicate the events of 9/11 on a mountian -- and observe how firm the mountian remains.

Heh.. mountain looks destroyed to me in this hypothetical situation.

Planes have crashed into mountians before -- theyre still there, stronger than ever.

Originally posted by SeerQris
After careful reading and consideration I have given up trying to prove that any of the DBZ characters can move at light speed. But instead I have chosen to claim Agnosticism on the whole subject.

It is impossible to prove the light speed claim because it is not directly stated as such across all the DBZ mediums. There is no comic narrator that lets me know that X is moving at light speeds and it has been shown that I cannot trust the anime as there are some cases of America adding things in. Be that as it may I have not gone so far as to believe that some DBZ characters cannot move at light speeds.

I do not buy into the logic because x cannot be proven x is not true. Sure if x cannot be proven it is not good material to use in an argument but it says nothing about x’s truth value. X’s truth value is only effected when it has been proven false. And I also do not buy the whole trash talk argument, that argument is so ridiculous that if anyone were to take up such a stance it may be impossible to prove anything. I could always counter with they could have just been lying etc…which is speculation at best until PROVEN otherwise. To say that someone was lying means that the burden of proof shifts to whoever makes the claim and they will have to prove that the character was lying not the defending side. If I say that you are lying and don’t prove it then the only thing everyone has to go off of is my word, I also cannot use someone else’s lies to show that you have lied too, it doesn’t work that way. .... or are some of you suggesing that it's Guilty until proven innocent?

What I did buy was the America Dub argument, meaning that America could have input false information into the series. That fact causes me to believe that truth hovers somewhere above us at the moment thus my now Agnostic stance; the only way we can get an answer is by asking Akira Toriyama himself. I do not have smoking gun evidence that light speed is going on in the anime because I have no speedometer and no Overlord narrator to tell me it's happening. However there are things which cause me to believe that it may be happening. I have seen teleportation, invisible combat, humans appearing to stand still while they are actually moving omega fast, and etc. These bits of information lead me to suggest that Akira Toriyama would indeed confirm that light speed was a feat of Goku’s.

So, was all this light speed talk or Goku talk suppose to somehow tie back to Super Buu and Thanos? If not I am very sorry for this off topic crazyness.

Their is very obvious implied power and abilities, if you dont accept it due to personal beliefs or implications -- so be it.

Originally posted by ExtraMision5555
Perhaps not in lifting, but their are two things to keep in mind when you say that

Chi vastly increases "Power", Think blackbolts master-fist tehcnique. Though he may not be able to lift as much as say hulk, or superman, because he is able to amplify the impact of his punches, he essentially may still be not as good a lifter as say hulk, or thing. Same goes for Iron fist (considering he isint amplifying his strength) Etc. Alot of people seem to forget that, not neccessairily you i mean, just in general.

This is true, but we have no real evidence to suggest that they use their chi to amplify the impact of their punches, I'm sure its possible for them, but we don't know for sure if they actually do this or not, the only time they ever seem to hit harder when they appear weaker is when for example Goku was fighting freeza and using the Kaio ken x10 in bursts to increase his power to add more of a boost to his attacks. But when they fight at their max's they can't really do this... at least I wouldnt have thought so, unless you saw them use chi to amplify their punches...

Originally posted by Sparkz
This is true, but we have no real evidence to suggest that they use their chi to amplify the impact of their punches, I'm sure its possible for them, but we don't know for sure if they actually do this or not, the only time they ever seem to hit harder when they appear weaker is when for example Goku was fighting freeza and using the Kaio ken x10 in bursts to increase his power to add more of a boost to his attacks. But when they fight at their max's they can't really do this... at least I wouldnt have thought so, unless you saw them use chi to amplify their punches...

Well isnt the act of powering up raising chi, thus making them stronger period, this would include punches.

Originally posted by SeerQris
Well isnt the act of powering up raising chi, thus making them stronger period, this would include punches.

yes I don't think you understood what I was trying to get at, when they raise their chi they can only raise it so far, so in Goku's base form at his very max he couldnt lift 40 tons, so there would be no more chi for him to amp his strength to punch at a force of 40 tons, if he was supressing his chi at say 20 tons and boosted it while punching to say 30 tons, then yes you could do this with chi, but when fighting at their max they can't increase their strength anymore... I really need to learn to word my statments better, not even sure if that made sense to anyone but me lol

Originally posted by Sparkz
yes I don't think you understood what I was trying to get at, when they raise their chi they can only raise it so far, so in Goku's base form at his very max he couldnt lift 40 tons, so there would be no more chi for him to amp his strength to punch at a force of 40 tons, if he was supressing his chi at say 20 tons and boosted it while punching to say 30 tons, then yes you could do this with chi, but when fighting at their max they can't increase their strength anymore... I really need to learn to word my statments better, not even sure if that made sense to anyone but me lol

Ok i got it. However I have yet to see anything that would allow me to assess Goku's strength cap. It just seems to me that he gets stronger when needed.