Super Buu vs Thanos

Originally posted by SeerQris
Ok i got it. However I have yet to see anything that would allow me to assess Goku's strength cap. It just seems to me that he gets stronger when needed.

Yeah he does, after training, at the end of Buu saga you could say his max was 40-50 tons as he had been training for 7 years after the buu saga, and he would have received a zenkai after battling with Buu. But we can use this cap for the buu saga because he didn't really train then...

Originally posted by Sparkz
Yeah he does, after training, at the end of Buu saga you could say his max was 40-50 tons as he had been training for 7 years after the buu saga, and he would have received a zenkai after battling with Buu. But we can use this cap for the buu saga because he didn't really train then...

What is the instrument being used to say with certainty that his max was 40-50 tons?

Furthermore are we arguing about Goku so that we can tie it back to Buu? (or has this spiralled out of control)

Originally posted by SeerQris
What is the instrument being used to say with certainty that his max was 40-50 tons?

Furthermore are we arguing about Goku so that we can tie it back to Buu? (or has this spiralled out of control)

The fact that Goku couldn't even move and stated he could move if he trained with weights equalling to 40 tons. So that had to be above his max, after all he wouldn't lie about that just so he could turn Super saiyan, and if someone does think that i'v gotta say that is reading far to much into it.

I think we were arguing about Goku so we could try and get a basic understanding of DBZ characters strength levels so we couldn't roughly guess Buu's and compare him to Thanos, though I could be wrong.

Originally posted by Sparkz
The fact that Goku couldn't even move and stated he could move if he trained with weights equalling to 40 tons. So that had to be above his max, after all he wouldn't lie about that just so he could turn Super saiyan, and if someone does think that i'v gotta say that is reading far to much into it.

I think we were arguing about Goku so we could try and get a basic understanding of DBZ characters strength levels so we couldn't roughly guess Buu's and compare him to Thanos, though I could be wrong.

I havn't seen this dialogue of Goku's strength cap so I am holding off on a judgement until i see it. (Perhaps you know where I can find this, if not I will search myself). I am still very skeptical about a proven class range for Goku.

Also, which i am sure has been said atlest once in this forum Superman and Buu are not lifting weights. From visuals alone I think it is safe to say that if Buu and THanos fought Buu could dodge quite well and vice versa. There are other things Buu can do to Thanos that have nothing to do with lifting power. And there area alot of things Thanos can do to Buu that have nothing to do with lifting power.

I think we should focus more on these feats as I don't see a hand to hand battle between these two baring much fruit anyway.

Originally posted by SeerQris
I havn't seen this dialogue of Goku's strength cap so I am holding off on a judgement until i see it. (Perhaps you know where I can find this, if not I will search myself). I am still very skeptical about a proven class range for Goku.

Also, which i am sure has been said atlest once in this forum Superman and Buu are not lifting weights. From visuals alone I think it is safe to say that if Buu and THanos fought Buu could dodge quite well and vice versa. There are other things Buu can do to Thanos that have nothing to do with lifting power. And there area alot of things Thanos can do to Buu that have nothing to do with lifting power.

I think we should focus more on these feats as I don't see a hand to hand battle between these two baring much fruit anyway.

Soljir and I both typed out the dialouge for the strength cap a few pages back page 19 if I recall correctly, and it may not be punching power but it still gives you a general idea of their weight class does it not.

I just read up about this 40 ton cap and appears to me that it happened in Goku's base form. Due to the up in the air str increase from base form to saiyan 3 I have concluded I have no idea about Goku's end lift limit as far as the buu saga goes. (I do know though that his str has omega properties, being he has infinite potential)

Originally posted by SeerQris
After careful reading and consideration I have given up trying to prove that any of the DBZ characters can move at light speed. But instead I have chosen to claim Agnosticism on the whole subject.

It is impossible to prove the light speed claim because it is not directly stated as such across all the DBZ mediums. There is no comic narrator that lets me know that X is moving at light speeds and it has been shown that I cannot trust the anime as there are some cases of America adding things in. Be that as it may I have not gone so far as to believe that some DBZ characters cannot move at light speeds.

I do not buy into the logic because x cannot be proven x is not true. Sure if x cannot be proven it is not good material to use in an argument but it says nothing about x’s truth value. X’s truth value is only effected when it has been proven false.

Originally posted by SeerQris
And I also do not buy the whole trash talk argument, that argument is so ridiculous that if anyone were to take up such a stance it may be impossible to prove anything. I could always counter with they could have just been lying etc…which is speculation at best until PROVEN otherwise. To say that someone was lying means that the burden of proof shifts to whoever makes the claim and they will have to prove that the character was lying not the defending side.

Originally posted by SeerQris
If I say that you are lying and don’t prove it then the only thing everyone has to go off of is my word, I also cannot use someone else’s lies to show that you have lied too, it doesn’t work that way. .... or are some of you suggesing that it's Guilty until proven innocent?

No, it doesn't work that way. The instant I made the claim to having one of these things the burden of proof would remain on my shoulders until I was able to prove it.

Likewise when you use a character telling someone they're trying to psyche out or kill that they can do something you have to prove that they could do that.

Originally posted by SeerQris
What I did buy was the America Dub argument, meaning that America could have input false information into the series. That fact causes me to believe that truth hovers somewhere above us at the moment thus my now Agnostic stance; the only way we can get an answer is by asking Akira Toriyama himself. I do not have smoking gun evidence that light speed is going on in the anime because I have no speedometer and no Overlord narrator to tell me it's happening. However there are things which cause me to believe that it may be happening. I have seen teleportation,

Originally posted by SeerQris
invisible combat,

Originally posted by SeerQris
humans appearing to stand still while they are actually moving

Originally posted by SeerQris
omega fast, and etc. These bits of information lead me to suggest that Akira Toriyama would indeed confirm that light speed was a feat of Goku’s.

Originally posted by SeerQris
So, was all this light speed talk or Goku talk suppose to somehow tie back to Super Buu and Thanos? If not I am very sorry for this off topic crazyness.

Originally posted by ExtraMision5555
Also, Cresh,

Planes have crashed into mountians before -- theyre still there, stronger than ever.

As the hypothetical analogy was flawed so too would the outcome of it.

Originally posted by SeerQris
I just read up about this 40 ton cap and appears to me that it happened in Goku's base form. Due to the up in the air str increase from base form to saiyan 3 I have concluded I have no idea about Goku's end lift limit as far as the buu saga goes. (I do know though that his str has omega properties, being he has infinite potential)

You do realise I did state numerous times that this cap was for Goku's base?

Originally posted by SeerQris
Ok i got it. However I have yet to see anything that would allow me to assess Goku's strength cap. It just seems to me that he gets stronger when needed.

Originally posted by Creshosk
Then would you like to prove this limitless strength? Or are woulsd we be debating against one of king_cold's fan creations that puts in things that didn't actually happen in any medium other than fanfiction?

I think hes just trying to say that through more training Goku can get stronger than 40 tons, but when does he finaly stop...at least that was my interpretation.

Originally posted by Creshosk
✅

*buzzer noise* Wrong. You can't prove a negative The burden of proof remains on the shoulders of those who claim that he was telling the truth. Until they prove that they were telling the truth the default takes presidence.

So if I claim that I have an omnipotent being standing behind me, it automatically is true, and anyone who says that I'm lying has to prove that I do not have an omnipotent being behind me? Sorry doesn't work that way. By challenging that someone is lying they have to prove that they are not. That's the way it works otherwise I could claim I have evidence that the dbz fighters were all on an LSD trip and none of db, z or GT happened. then anyone who claims I'm wrong is instantly proving my claims to be true until they can prove I don't have said concrete evidence?

No, it doesn't work that way. The instant I made the claim to having one of these things the burden of proof would remain on my shoulders until I was able to prove it.

Likewise when you use a character telling someone they're trying to psyche out or kill that they can do something you have to prove that they could do that.

Depending on distance teleportation could be considered warp speeds. Shorter distances however would prove lower speeds.

As shown before you do not need to move at lightspeeds to accomplish this.

As with the invisible combat it does not require light speeds.

Teleportation is the only one, the others you do not need to move at such speeds.

It's proving an extrapolation off of Buu's abilities. If goku could not acheive something and was at any point in time on par with one of buu's forms that shows that that buu's form would not be able to acheive it either.

I understand you thus far but I think your analogies are little off/don’t apply well to the situations.

Let’s say that Goku claims that he can move at light speeds in the show and you standing in reality say “Goku you are trash talking”. Does that mean that Goku’s claim of light speed is false, given that there was no speedometer or no need to travel light speeds in the show(note this situation is absolutely hypotheticical)? No it doesn’t. The problem here is that Goku and all other characters in the show can do nothing to address claims against them because they are not real, so as I was saying Akira Toriyama is needed. There is a lack of evidence all around to appraise truth value. Dealing with Marvel/DC comics things are a little more concrete. We have more measurements and even occasionally have a narrator to confirm data, this is not so in DBZ. In DBZ we have visuals and the occasional comment which many can easily claim bluff. And furthermore DBZ is over, it is no longer Dynamic. So making bluff claims against it imo becomes speculation at best unless it is proven by the one who calls bluff.

Let’s say that Vegeta dyes his hair green in the show and says that he dyes his hair all the time. I could after DBZ was over make the claim that Goku’s hair wasn’t originally black in the show. Does this mean that I am right? No It doesn’t. Could I have a cause to believe that Goku’s hair was a different color at one time? Sure because Vegeta did it but it would stretch no further than belief and at best it would be speculation.

So because of our situation of discussing characters that are not real, all of our statements that we make that are not readily apparent in the show/mediums I say we must prove ourselves. Just like claiming that there is an omnipotent being standing behind us.

We cannot accuse the mute, so we must back up our own claims and not expect the non-respondable to respond.

Lastly, as stated I totally agree that your analogy holds in reality where there can be a live dialogue between accuser and defense, but even then it can be stretched to such an agnostic nature as to become ridiculous.

Let’s say that you tell me that you are 90 years old and I tell you I don’t believe you and I say prove it. So you send me your photo id etc. But I am still not happy, and I say that the documents are fake, so you have a man in a business suit show up at my door to tell me the docs are real etc. But I’m still not happy and say the guy is just an actor… it can go on forever.

My point being as I read through this thread there seems to be these types accusations and it isn’t getting the discussion any closer to the truth.

Originally posted by Sparkz
I think hes just trying to say that through more training Goku can get stronger than 40 tons, but when does he finaly stop...at least that was my interpretation.

Correct, I am not saying Goku has infinity on tap.

Originally posted by Sparkz
You do realise I did state numerous times that this cap was for Goku's base?

Apologies. But as far as it all goes, I am quite skeptical about a definite measurment of SSJ3's(or ss2) str cap. But I can say with a high lvl of belief that it is well over 50 tons.

Originally posted by SeerQris
I understand you thus far but I think your analogies are little off/don’t apply well to the situations.

Originally posted by SeerQris
Let’s say that Goku claims that he can move at light speeds in the show and you standing in reality say “Goku you are trash talking”. Does that mean that Goku’s claim of light speed is false, given that there was no speedometer or no need to travel light speeds in the show(note this situation is absolutely hypotheticical)?

A person can claim anything they want without proof from a reliable source like him doing something that would require speed of light movement.

Originally posted by SeerQris
No it doesn’t. The problem here is that Goku and all other characters in the show can do nothing to address claims against them because they are not real, so as I was saying Akira Toriyama is needed.

If a fan of Storm claims she can do something they are required to prove that she can.
If a fan of Wolverine claims she can do something they are required to prove that he can.
If a fan of Goku claims she can do something they are required to prove that he can.
If a fan of Captain America claims she can do something they are required to prove that he can.

Originally posted by SeerQris
There is a lack of evidence all around to appraise truth value. Dealing with Marvel/DC comics things are a little more concrete. We have more measurements and even occasionally have a narrator to confirm data, this is not so in DBZ.

Originally posted by SeerQris
In DBZ we have visuals and the occasional comment which many can easily claim bluff. And furthermore DBZ is over, it is no longer Dynamic. So making bluff claims against it imo becomes speculation at best unless it is proven by the one who calls bluff.

Likewise its like me saying that Thanos can yawn and obliterate a universe. And then say that YOU have to disprove that.

Originally posted by SeerQris
Let’s say that Vegeta dyes his hair green in the show and says that he dyes his hair all the time. I could after DBZ was over make the claim that Goku’s hair wasn’t originally black in the show. Does this mean that I am right? No It doesn’t. Could I have a cause to believe that Goku’s hair was a different color at one time? Sure because Vegeta did it but it would stretch no further than believe and at best it would be speculation.

You want so badly for it to be accepted that the fighters move at light speeds or can do the things they claim? You're the one saying that they can do things never shown in any of the mediums, you're the one who has to prove it.

Originally posted by SeerQris
So because of our situation of discussing characters that are not real, all of our statements that we make that are not readily apparent in the show/mediums I say we must prove ourselves. Just like claiming that there is an omnipotent being standing behind us.

We cannot accuse the mute, so we must back up our own claims and not expect the non-respondable to respond.

Lastly, as stated I totally agree that your analogy holds in reality where there can be a live dialogue between accuser and defense, but even then it can be stretched to such an agnostic nature as to become ridiculous.

Let’s say that you tell me that you are 90 years old and I tell you I don’t believe you and I say prove it. So you send me your photo id etc. But I am still not happy, and I say that the documents are fake, so you have a man in a business suit show up at my door to tell me the docs are real etc. But I’m still not happy and say the guy is just an actor… it can go on forever.

Originally posted by SeerQris
My point being as I read through this thread there seems to be these types accusations and it isn’t getting the discussion any closer to the truth.

Not quit your dodging and prove that they can do the things you claim they can. This red herring wis way off topic by this point in time. And hining about how you can't prove things only goes to weaken your argument.

Give us proof of the things you claim.

Originally posted by Creshosk
In case you sdidn't pick up on it I was attacking your false analogy on the basis that you were setting up a non-comparative situation by ignoreing the mass/size ratio conversion of the materials.

As the hypothetical analogy was flawed so too would the outcome of it.

Your original statement (as quoted) said that in your mind, the mountian was destroyed. That statmeent is false. You then continued to extend your point; so you either did not express yourself correctly, or simply thought a 747 would be sufficient in leveling a mountian.

Anyways, to answer your quesiton sparkz chi amplifies their power, it has been stated in dragonball, not specifficaly but implied (or rather assumed) that it amplifies abilities. Or more speciffically Power. That way when they train on a purely physical level they are able to amplify their power (damage output) much greater than they are at a base. Which routes me to my original point in saying that lifting can equate to damage output -- but does not define it. And that goes for characters in general as their are similar instances througout the medium.

Furthermore (again im just being general your quote just happens to be above this post lol so you dont get confused), plenty of things in comics/cartoons cannot be "proven". For several reasons but it is unimportant to list them. How do we know superman is really breatheing fire? Just because he said so & then did it? How do we know that storm is channeling the same lightening that falls from the sky without her intervention? Why does Havok's energy hoops melt things? Do not make the error of being over analytical. We see the symptoms of their actions, we learn from implied evidence, we understand whats going on. It doesnt have to be spelled out. Its fine to disguss these things to a point, but ultimately, were not solving a crime. There is no way of getting scneitific evidence so to speak of a said persons actions. A character does not claim to move at lightspeed, and then move at light speed and say "see? im moving at light speed!" We simply understand the medium -- and take it for what it is.
Shy of rediculous accuzations, it is unneccessairy to disguss the deep schematics of character abilities.

Originally posted by ExtraMision5555
Your original statement (as quoted) said that in your mind, the mountian was destroyed. That statmeent is false. You then continued to extend your point; so you either did not express yourself correctly, or simply thought a 747 would be sufficient in leveling a mountian.

Originally posted by ExtraMision5555
Furthermore (again im just being general your quote just happens to be above this post lol so you dont get confused), plenty of things in comics/cartoons cannot be "proven". For several reasons but it is unimportant to list them. How do we know superman is really breatheing fire? Just because he said so & then did it? How do we know that storm is channeling the same lightening that falls from the sky without her intervention? Why does Havok's energy hoops melt things? Do not make the error of being over analytical. We see the symptoms of their actions, we learn from implied evidence, we understand whats going on. It doesnt have to be spelled out. Its fine to disguss these things to a point, but ultimately, were not solving a crime. There is no way of getting scneitific evidence so to speak of a said persons actions. A character does not claim to move at lightspeed, and then move at light speed and say "see? im moving at light speed!" We simply understand the medium -- and take it for what it is.

Cute, real cute.

Stop whining and start proving. All you two are doing is dancing around the issue. Prove your claims.

Originally posted by ExtraMision5555
Shy of rediculous accuzations, it is unneccessairy to disguss the deep schematics of character abilities.

Originally posted by ExtraMision5555

Anyways, to answer your quesiton sparkz chi amplifies their power, it has been stated in dragonball, not specifficaly but implied (or rather assumed) that it amplifies abilities. Or more speciffically Power. That way when they train on a purely physical level they are able to amplify their power (damage output) much greater than they are at a base. Which routes me to my original point in saying that lifting can equate to damage output -- but does not define it. And that goes for characters in general as their are similar instances througout the medium.

Yeah I know it doesn't define it, but Goku couldn't move with 40 tons on him without becoming Super Saiyan, so at his max he could possibly punch at 40-50 tons of power but he couldn't go higher because his chi wouldn't go higher.

If he doesn't prove that he can, then yes. It very much counts as trash talking.

A person can claim anything they want without proof from a reliable source like him doing something that would require speed of light movement.

I think this is where we differ and where I say that you are wrong. It does not prove that he is trash talking. What it is proves is that no one knows. In my hypothetical situation Goku says that he can move at light speed at some point in time. However in the show there is never a need to test this feat. This being true does not prove that Goku was just trash talking… I don’t know how much more plain I can make it. Here is a more formal way of putting it so you can see that this is not true.

1) Goku claimed that he could travel at light speeds in DBZ.
2) In the show there was no evidence of this happening.
3) Therefore Goku was trash talking.

Can you not see how the above string of statements is not true. The conclusion does not follow.

Furthermore I already gave up trying to prove that DBZ characters moved at light speeds understanding that this is impossible to prove due to the non-metrics. I am not whining about this fact I am recognizing it to move on with fruitful discussion. My whole point was to show that your style of accusation required proof itself as it is much like the 3 statements I put above.

Then get him. Its the same standard that ALL other comic book debates are held to. DBZ is no exception.

If a fan of Storm claims she can do something they are required to prove that she can.
If a fan of Wolverine claims she can do something they are required to prove that he can.
If a fan of Goku claims she can do something they are required to prove that he can.
If a fan of Captain America claims she can do something they are required to prove that he can..

I would love to get AT it would make reaching the truth of this matter easier. I never said that DBZ was an exception if that is what you are accusing me of.

Now if storm says in a comic that she can pull solar energy out of the sun(again this is just a crazy example) and does not ever do so because of a non need to display this feat, and a fan of storms says “Storm can pull solar energy out of the sun she said so in bla bla bla” does that mean that Storm was just trash talking? Sure it means that we can speculate that Storm cannot do it because she hasn’t demonstrated, but by no means does it become FALSE. Again I say that it is unknowing currently not false.

If DBZ fans expect to be able to debate their characters against other comic characters they're going to have to. DBZ is not an exception to the rule.

I don’t know why I have given you the impression that I am making DBZ an exception. I have blatantly accepted that light speed of a DBZ character so far is speculation and belief at best, but by that I only mean that there is no 100 percent truth of the matter, some of it is up in the air. This simply means that the discussion must use other talking points.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by SeerQris
In DBZ we have visuals and the occasional comment which many can easily claim bluff. And furthermore DBZ is over, it is no longer Dynamic. So making bluff claims against it imo becomes speculation at best unless it is proven by the one who calls bluff.

Wrong. The person who calls someone's bluff does not have to prove it. Even in poker if someone claims the other person is bluffing the person who is supposedly bluffing can't just hide his cards and decalre victory.

Likewise its like me saying that Thanos can yawn and obliterate a universe. And then say that YOU have to disprove that.

In poker there is a live dialogue going on. The truth can be revealed. In this case it cannot be revealed it can only be proven wrong. So no it is up to the accuser to prove it wrong in this case if they wish to use it as a statement in their string of logic. Yes the accuser can speculate that something is awry but they cannot use it in a string of logic as I put it at the top of this post.

Now the Thanos thing. If you say Thanos can yawn and then also tell me that he said so himself in the comic I can choose to accept Thanos’ word or I can choose to suggest that he can’t and was just lying. But my accusation of his lie is only speculation. So if I said something like

“Thanos has not demonstrated that he can yawn away a universe.” This would be a True Statement

But if I said something like

“Thanos was just trash talking when he said he could yawn away a universe.” This would be a False Statement.

And finally

“Thanos is unable to yawn away a universe” - This is a false statement but here is the kicker. With what you told me about Thanos’ comments I might be more persuaded to believe that he could. The fact that he said so is actually a form of evidence, this evidence is not capable of proving the claim true but it is indeed evidence that may sway an unknowable situation into a believable one.

So the bottom statement is useless at getting towards the truth and so is the middle one.

And tying it back to DBZ as I was saying this light speed discussion so far is an unknowable one.

Originally posted by SeerQris
Let’s say that Vegeta dyes his hair green in the show and says that he dyes his hair all the time. I could after DBZ was over make the claim that Goku’s hair wasn’t originally black in the show. Does this mean that I am right? No It doesn’t. Could I have a cause to believe that Goku’s hair was a different color at one time? Sure because Vegeta did it but it would stretch no further than believe and at best it would be speculation.

False analogy. you are the one who is claiming the characters abilities after the fact with no proof.

You want so badly for it to be accepted that the fighters move at light speeds or can do the things they claim? You're the one saying that they can do things never shown in any of the mediums, you're the one who has to prove it.

No I am not claiming any abilities I have claimed unknowing. I have stated quite clearly that it is unknown if it is indeed light speed. But I what I am saying is that there are bits of non smoking gun evidence that may imply light speed activity.

My analogy was to show that you are making claims after the fact. You are claiming Characters non abilities after the fact. So what is the difference accept in magnitude.

You say that I want so badly for light speed to be accepted, this is false. I am discussing for the truth of the matter, this isn’t some sophist I’m right and your wrong debate.

And I have nothing to prove as stated over and over. The only thing I attempted to prove a few post back was that the issue of their light speed is unknowable, but not false.

Originally posted by Creshosk
If a fan of Storm claims she can do something they are required to prove that she can.
If a fan of Wolverine claims she can do something they are required to prove that he can.
If a fan of Goku claims she can do something they are required to prove that he can.
If a fan of Captain America claims she can do something they are required to prove that he can.

Wolverine, Cap and Goku are all guys.