Exactly. Skills mean a lot, but powerlevel means even more.
BTW, Vegeta said Gohan was fighting like an idiot against Dabura because he hadn't trained for years after the Cell Saga.
Sure Dabura may have had a higher power level, but Vegeta specifically talked about Gohan's decline in skills when he couldn't beat him.
Btw, Goku is actually a top MA'er. If you've watched the shows you'd know that most of his abilities are actually martial arts techniques (from his universe. Kaokin, for example, is a martial technique). In his youth all he did was train to fight in tournaments. By the time he becomes a Z Fighter in DBZ he's one of the top martial artists in the universe and fights in a universal tournament (where Pikhan is introduced). The fact that they fight at absurd speed and appear to just be flailing at eachother is a misnomer. Goku is EXTREMELY skilled.
Originally posted by Placidity
Baseless/pointless claims are always nice.You're just showing again you're not even here to debate objectively, just anti-DB.
All of his early feats are skill feats. All of the abilities he shows in the old pre DBZ cartoon (when he was a kid) were skills taught to him by Master Roshi. His meta stats just amped the degree at which he could use the skills he was taught to an insane level.
For another reference, Krillin is a plain human and he learned how to fly, project ki attacks, and the whole nine, through training.
Originally posted by illadelph12
All of his early feats are skill feats. All of the abilities he shows in the old pre DBZ cartoon (when he was a kid) were skills taught to him by Master Roshi. His meta stats just amped the degree at which he could use the skills he was taught to an insane level.For another reference, Krillin is a plain human and he learned how to fly, project ki attacks, and the whole nine, through training.
The way I see it you might as well apply the same logic to Superman and say he's incredibly skilled because he learned to use heat vision, to vibrate his molecules to phase through attacks, and how to super compress the air in his lungs to make freeze-breath.
A single punch that can shatter miles of land?
Firstly that's not a transcendent level feat and two that never happened. Unless you can prove me wrong with a scan from the manga.
What?Just because his power level was 3.6x higher doesn't equate to only being 3.6x stronger.Sometimes more sometimes less.In this case more.
So it's unquantifiable and not relevant.
You were talking about him sundipping for growing in power.The sun is an outside source.
Just like Goku requires food, water and oxygen to fight. Hmm...
Bring supermans average combat speed feats.Then I'll bring gokus.
Lets role. I hope to god you don't just start spamming youtube links. Let the scan war begin.
http://img204.imageshack.us/f/69520627tb6.jpg/
http://img262.imageshack.us/f/cityta4.jpg/
http://img217.imageshack.us/f/86331340gw5.jpg/
http://img243.imageshack.us/f/64633162un6.jpg/
http://img508.imageshack.us/f/rex17yk6.jpg/
http://img47.imageshack.us/f/75502158tq2.jpg/
http://img412.imageshack.us/f/95647680ca1.jpg/
http://img155.imageshack.us/f/blitz1ge1.jpg/
http://img399.imageshack.us/i/supermanvswwry2.jpg/
http://s151.photobucket.com/albums/s132/Erik_Magnus_Lensherr/?action=view¤t=SupermanSpeedblitzKryptonian.jpg
Your turn.
Originally posted by Omega Vision
Ki manipulation isn't the same as h/h skill, which is what is implied in the words "Top MAer".The way I see it you might as well apply the same logic to Superman and say he's incredibly skilled because he learned to use heat vision, to vibrate his molecules to phase through attacks, and how to super compress the air in his lungs to make freeze-breath.
Ki manipulation is part of it, however. Like it is for Iron Fist. That's an acquired martial skill, as exampled by Tien, Krillin, and Yamcha. So is their speed and fighting ability. They "learned" how to be that powerful and fight in that manner. Goku's meta stats amplified the same training that the others received by an exponential magnitude (which is why he's so much more powerful than all of the others with the same training). It is skill, it's not just the fact he's a Saiyin. It just so happens that in the DBZ universe damn near everyone, particularly villains, knows some form of martial art.
It's kinda like how in Buffy, miraculously, all of the vampires spontaneously become proficient in karate upon being turned, though Buffy has to train all the time to get better at fighting.
Originally posted by Omega VisionDelph told me that you can specify the anime as canon.I take his word over most peoples.
I'm waiting for you to actually post a canon (read: Manga) scan. All you really know is the Anime, meaning you're talking out of your ass essentially.
Originally posted by Omega VisionThere were a few mini villians like the ginyu force but not much more.How does that have any relevance?
There were much more than three villains. And every time a power level was shown to rise all hope of a character soloing that person vanished. Doesn't say much for the importance of skill.Bullshit is Goku a Top Tier MA. If he were depowered to human stats Batman would make Goku his little ***** in a sparring match.
If you gave them the same bodies I only see batman beating goku by a little.
Originally posted by illadelph12
Ki manipulation is part of it, however. Like it is for Iron Fist. That's an acquired martial skill, as exampled by Tien, Krillin, and Yamcha. So is their speed and fighting ability. They "learned" how to be that powerful and fight in that manner. Goku's meta stats amplified the same training that the others received by an exponential magnitude (which is why he's so much more powerful than all of the others with the same training). It is skill, it's not just the fact he's a Saiyin. It just so happens that in the DBZ universe damn near everyone, particularly villains, knows some form of martial art.It's kinda like how in Buffy, miraculously, all of the vampires spontaneously become proficient in karate upon being turned, though Buffy has to train all the time to get better at fighting.
Originally posted by Galvaclaw
Lets role. I hope to god you don't just start spamming youtube links. Let the scan war begin.http://img204.imageshack.us/f/69520627tb6.jpg/
http://img262.imageshack.us/f/cityta4.jpg/
http://img217.imageshack.us/f/86331340gw5.jpg/
http://img243.imageshack.us/f/64633162un6.jpg/
http://img508.imageshack.us/f/rex17yk6.jpg/
http://img47.imageshack.us/f/75502158tq2.jpg/
http://img412.imageshack.us/f/95647680ca1.jpg/
http://img155.imageshack.us/f/blitz1ge1.jpg/
http://img399.imageshack.us/i/supermanvswwry2.jpg/
http://s151.photobucket.com/albums/s132/Erik_Magnus_Lensherr/?action=view¤t=SupermanSpeedblitzKryptonian.jpgYour turn.
Video actually captures speed much better than a scan. In fact, you can't even tell how fast someone is moving in a scan unless some facts are stated. For example, those feats could've been done by quicksilver for all we know.
Also Superman is seen as a blur in those scans. Goku is invisible even to trained eyes (i.e my argument before).
those feats could've been done by quicksilver for all we know.
Quicksilver could speedblitz Kryptonians or outrun the omega effect?
Also Superman is seen as a blur in those scans. Goku is invisible even to trained eyes (i.e my argument before).
And Goku is usually drawn as being visible with speed lines. What's your point?
Originally posted by Omega Vision
Point to a pure skill feat by Goku. Even as far back as Dragonball he was a Meta and thus it is incredibly difficult to disassociate his feats from his stats.
Originally posted by illadelph12👆
Btw, Goku is actually a top MA'er. If you've watched the shows you'd know that most of his abilities are actually martial arts techniques (from his universe. Kaokin, for example, is a martial technique). In his youth all he did was train to fight in tournaments. By the time he becomes a Z Fighter in DBZ he's one of the top martial artists in the universe and fights in a universal tournament (where Pikhan is introduced). The fact that they fight at absurd speed and appear to just be flailing at eachother is a misnomer. Goku is EXTREMELY skilled.
Originally posted by GalvaclawIt has happened.Although I never read much of the magna.But just say so and I can bring up a video of that happening.And yes if he can do that with one punch...I mean show someone like thanos doing something like that.
Firstly that's not a transcendent level feat and two that never happened. Unless you can prove me wrong with a scan from the manga.So it's unquantifiable and not relevant.
Just like Goku requires food, water and oxygen to fight. Hmm...
Lets role. I hope to god you don't just start spamming youtube links. Let the scan war begin.
http://img204.imageshack.us/f/69520627tb6.jpg/
http://img262.imageshack.us/f/cityta4.jpg/
http://img217.imageshack.us/f/86331340gw5.jpg/
http://img243.imageshack.us/f/64633162un6.jpg/
http://img508.imageshack.us/f/rex17yk6.jpg/
http://img47.imageshack.us/f/75502158tq2.jpg/
http://img412.imageshack.us/f/95647680ca1.jpg/
http://img155.imageshack.us/f/blitz1ge1.jpg/
http://img399.imageshack.us/i/supermanvswwry2.jpg/
http://s151.photobucket.com/albums/s132/Erik_Magnus_Lensherr/?action=view¤t=SupermanSpeedblitzKryptonian.jpgYour turn.
Raditz said he was 10x stronger and when he one shotted goku I think he proved it.
What?If superman were to sundipp thats an outside source.Goku doesn't need food to amp.Just to live.Its kind of common...
A couple things.
1: Half of those are blitzing and not combat speed.He just flies fast with his fist out.
2: The fifth link didn't work
3: But I do say some of those are the best scans I have seen for his combat speed.Especially the wonder woman one.
4: I have to post links because I never read much of the magna.
Originally posted by illadelph12😂
Can't believe you muthaf*ckas tricked me into defending DBZ...I'm done. Not getting caught in this Haterfest either way.
Keep going you were doing very well.
Originally posted by PlacidityTBH thats the same thing as carvers argument.Just because its shown faster doesn't mean it is.Like the wonderwoman scans I would consider very very close to the same kind of fighting they do in DBZ.Excellent scans again.
Video actually captures speed much better than a scan. In fact, you can't even tell how fast someone is moving in a scan unless some facts are stated. For example, those feats could've been done by quicksilver for all we know.Also Superman is seen as a blur in those scans. Goku is invisible even to trained eyes (i.e my argument before).
Oh, and one more thing on DBZ before I'm done-done:
I already gave the Executive Order that Manga and Anime versions of DBZ characters are mutually exclusive. Anime feats apply to the anime only with everything from the Original DragonBall through Dragon Ball GT being canon for the animated version of the character.
Manga Goku is considered a different version of the character for the intents of cross genre debates.
It has happened.Although I never read much of the magna.But just say so and I can bring up a video of that happening.And yes if he can do that with one punch...I mean show someone like thanos doing something like that.
Fair enough show me this video.
1: Half of those are blitzing and not combat speed.He just flies fast with his fist out.
Still requires huge reaction speeds.
4: I have to post links because I never read much of the magna.
Fair enough, but be nice to me and don't include any linkin park music videos.
