Mixed Genre & Comic Tier Reference Guide

I think we're mixing apples and oranges here.

One camp is working from the premise that Neo's powers are that of a human mind manipulating a virtual world against virtual humans, and thus his powers would only work on simulations/programs and not on non-program metas.

The other is working from the premise that since Neo's abilities within the Matrix would transfer over seemlessly to the neutral KMC environment via the Cross Genre rules his powers would still function in the same manner as they were portrayed to work within the Matrix, regardless of his opponent or locale.

That's where the disconnect is.

The latter is the correct interpretation of the rule, however, not the former. Per Cross Genre Rules, Neo would be able to manipulate the battlefield and his opponents just as he was depicted as doing in the films, regardless of his opponents native universe or medium. Just as Flash can steal the momentum of any opponent regardless of the fact that their native universe does not have a speedforce, Neo can manipulate the reality around him, and his opponents, just as he does his native Matrix.

Whether his opposition has the capacity to withstand this manipulation or not would be up for discussion.

Personally, I think someone like Superman, for example, has shown enough durability in his career that a strong argument could be made that he'd be able to resist being torn apart in that manner, and a character like Thanos has on panel feats showing him resisting reality manipulation while traversing dimensions.

Someone like Ironman, however, who is a regular human in an armor, is likely getting blown up like Smith did.

Originally posted by marwash22
Easy... can thor protect himself from people invading his body? If the answer is no, he's screwed. Why are you acting as if a Haxx power is supposed to make sense or be fair? No one bitches when Juggy can't be cut by... anything!

It depends on a) the type of invasion, and b) the type of attack.

what is neo doing exactlty inside his body to make him explode? how can you prove that it would work on thor? maybe he could invade his body, but in what form?

and powers still have to be quantifiable to a degree.

Originally posted by illadelph12
I think we're mixing apples and oranges here.

One camp is working from the premise that Neo's powers are that of a human mind manipulating a virtual world against virtual humans, and thus his powers would only work on simulations/programs and not on non-program metas.

The other is working from the premise that since Neo's abilities within the Matrix would transfer over seemlessly to the neutral KMC environment via the Cross Genre rules his powers would still function in the same manner as they were portrayed to work within the Matrix, regardless of his opponent or locale.

That's where the disconnect is.

The latter is the correct interpretation of the rule, however, not the former. Per Cross Genre Rules, Neo would be able to manipulate the battlefield and his opponents just as he was depicted as doing in the films, regardless of his opponents native universe or medium. Just as Flash can steal the momentum of any opponent regardless of the fact that their native universe does not have a speedforce, Neo can manipulate the reality around him, and his opponents, just as he does his native Matrix.

Whether his opposition has the capacity to withstand this manipulation or not would be up for discussion.

Personally, I think someone like Superman, for example, has shown enough durability in his career that a strong argument could be made that he'd be able to resist being torn apart in that manner, and a character like Thanos has on panel feats showing him resisting reality manipulation while traversing dimensions.

Someone like Ironman, however, who is a regular human in an armor, is likely getting blown up like Smith did.

smh...

Neo is a reality warper, his native reality just happens to be virtual.

In cross genre, his powers would work just as they would within the Matix. The battlefield is the reality he can manipulate, including his opposition, just as in the movies.

Here's my question though Delph:

Would Neo be capable of entering-and-exploding any character that we had seen in the movies? It was my understanding that Agent Smith was a different type of being from those humans who just wandered the streets, as he was a program created by the machines as opposed to a human plugged into the matrix. Therefore when Neo manipulates him, it's not the same as manipulating a character thats in the matrix but not a machine-created program.

I'm not asking if his explode-smith trick is limited to his universe, I'm asking if it's limited to Agent Smith specifically.

I could be misunderstanding something inherent in the Matrix, I'm just asking for clarification.

Originally posted by -Pr-
he'd still have his speed, his strength, his telekinesis etc.

but as i said to marwash, if he had his "jump inside you and explode" power, how would you argue it working on certain people like Wolverine or like Thor?

Character A is shown to have Power X. This is proven.
In order for Character B to not have Power X used on him he has to prove that he has the power to withstand it.

If Power X is telepathy, the first step is showing Character B has telepathic resistence or some other means of countering the telepathy..

Say, Emma frost is Character A. If Character B is Spiderman or Wolverine, They're pretty much screwed. At this point you don't have to prove the power level of Character A. Since Character B cannot counter power X.

If Character B can prove that they can counter Power X then it'd be up to Character A's side to prove the power level of Character A's Power X.

If Character B is someone like Professor X, Jean grey or Juggernaut it'll require Character A proving the power of their Power X.

So in this case Let's say it was Sandman or Clayface. Or someone else that's capable of reforming after being exploded. Power X being (Jump in their body and explode), would be irrelevant.

See how that works?

Originally posted by marwash22
Easy... can thor protect himself from people invading his body? If the answer is no, he's screwed. Why are you acting as if a Haxx power is supposed to make sense or be fair? No one bitches when Juggy can't be cut by... anything!

Difference is the Juggernaut actually has feats for his durability Where as Neo has no feats of damaging anyone of Thor's level with any attack. Neo killed Smith with this power so no character can resit? Even if they are millions of times more powerful than Neo or Smith? That's a no limits fallacy.

Why don't I suggest that Scar from Full metal alchemist can kill Thor next? It's the same thing.

Originally posted by illadelph12
Neo is a reality warper, his native reality just happens to be virtual.

In cross genre, his powers would work just as they would within the Matix. The battlefield is the reality he can manipulate, [b]including his opposition, just as in the movies. [/B]

i KNOW.

f*ck it, i give up. even when i agree with people it seems to come across like i'm disagreeing.

"someone like Superman, for example, has shown enough durability in his career that a strong argument could be made that he'd be able to resist being torn apart in that manner"...

That makes no sense. Neo isn't using physical force to invade or explode the person's body. Level of resistance to physical harm has no bearing on being ripped apart on the molecular level, from the inside, via reality warping.

When Neo jumps into Smith, he clearly destroys smith's physical body right down to his source code (a type of reality warp, as seen when Neo reappears and a ripple occurs)... translate that to non-matrix/computer terms, Neo would tear Superman apart on the molecular level. Unless a character can reform their body, or can exist without a physical body, or can prevent people from invading their body... Neo wins.

Also, there's the fact that, Neo can still be dodged or even killed before he gets the opportunity to use the body-explosion. The ability is Haxx, but it's not perfect, you just have to pick the right person to match him with. Superman would likely speed blitz Neo before body-explosion was even an option.

Originally posted by Galvaclaw
Difference is the Juggernaut actually has feats for his durability Where as Neo has no feats of damaging anyone of Thor's level with any attack. Neo killed Smith with this power so no character can resit? Even if they are millions of times more powerful than Neo or Smith? That's a no limits fallacy.

Why don't I suggest that Scar from Full metal alchemist can kill Thor next? It's the same thing.

If so then it'd be on the neo side to prove the level of explode from the inside damage he could do.

Originally posted by marwash22
Easy... can thor protect himself from people invading his body? If the answer is no, he's screwed. Why are you acting as if a Haxx power is supposed to make sense or be fair? No one bitches when Juggy can't be cut by... anything!

I don't see how this works with Neo. How do his powers work...

Originally posted by Existere
Here's my question though Delph:

Would Neo be capable of entering-and-exploding any character that we had seen in the movies? It was my understanding that Agent Smith was a different type of being from those humans who just wandered the streets, as he was a program created by the machines as opposed to a human plugged into the matrix. Therefore when Neo manipulates him, it's not the same as manipulating a character thats in the matrix but not a machine-created program.

I'm not asking if his explode-smith trick is limited to his universe, I'm asking if it's limited to Agent Smith specifically.

I could be misunderstanding something inherent in the Matrix, I'm just asking for clarification.

In the movies The One (Neo) had the ability to manipulate the Matrix to his will. All of the powers Neo showed were obtained via his manipulation of the virtual world. He wasn't a low grade Superman, he was a reality warper that granted himself Superman-esque powers.

Now, in the films, he was shown diving into Smith, flexing and causing a rippling effect of his surroundings, and reaching into Trinity and removing bullets, then stimulating her heart. Using those occurences, one could deduce that Neo could manipulate the form of individuals in the reality he controlled, both Agents/Native Programs of the Matrix, and "Red Pills" like Trinity, and possibly, though he never actually delved into it deeply, he could probably manipulate his surroundings as well. The most we saw of this was displays of simple telekinesis. There were only 3 films so it was never fully explored.

From what was shown though, yes, one could say he'd be able to jump into just about anyone, because that's part of his control of (virtual) reality, and it would translate over into Cross Genre as depicted in his native Matrix.

Now, whether that trick would kill everyone he comes across is up for debate.

Personally, I don't believe so.

Originally posted by marwash22
[b]"someone like Superman, for example, has shown enough durability in his career that a strong argument could be made that he'd be able to resist being torn apart in that manner"...

That makes no sense. Neo isn't using physical force to invade or explode the person's body. Level of resistance to physical harm has no bearing on being ripped apart on the molecular level, from the inside, via reality warping.

When Neo jumps into Smith, he clearly destroys smith's physical body right down to his source code (a type of reality warp, as seen when Neo reappears and a ripple occurs)... translate that to non-matrix/computer terms, Neo would tear Superman apart on the molecular level. Unless a character can reform their body, or can exist without a physical body, or can prevent people from invading their body... Neo wins.

Also, there's the fact that, Neo can still be dodged or even killed before he gets the opportunity to use the body-explosion. The ability is Haxx, but it's not perfect, you just have to pick the right person to match him with. Superman would likely speed blitz Neo before body-explosion was even an option. [/B]

The argument could be made either way.

There would be a Supes camp and a Neo Camp debating the outcome.

That's kinda the point.

Hmm... so walk me through this....

Neo manipulates the Matrix... and in theory can manipulate anything/anyone in the matrix? Using this he can dive into individuals.

In vs threads in-Universe powers are present regardless of the Universe.

Neo can manipulate anything or anyone in a vs thread? Using this he can dive into any opponent?

Hmm...

Have we even had a tier placement proposition made for Neo yet?

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Hmm... so walk me through this....

Neo manipulates the Matrix... and in theory can manipulate anything/anyone in the matrix? Using this he can dive into individuals.

In vs threads in-Universe powers are present regardless of the Universe.

Neo can manipulate anything or anyone in a vs thread? Using this he can dive into any opponent?

Essentially. The dive is part of his reality warping abilities, which is actually Neo's only power. The other displays (flight, speed, telekinesis, etc) all stem from and are applications of that base ability.

It's quirky, but that's the way it is.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Hmm... so walk me through this....

Neo manipulates the Matrix... and in theory can manipulate anything/anyone in the matrix? Using this he can dive into individuals.

In vs threads in-Universe powers are present regardless of the Universe.

Neo can manipulate anything or anyone in a vs thread? Using this he can dive into any opponent?

It's not like its an ability unique to neo

Originally posted by illadelph12
Hmm...

Have we even had a tier placement proposition made for Neo yet?

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Hmm... so walk me through this....

Neo manipulates the Matrix... and in theory can manipulate anything/anyone in the matrix? Using this he can dive into individuals.

In vs threads in-Universe powers are present regardless of the Universe.

Neo can manipulate anything or anyone in a vs thread? Using this he can dive into any opponent?

Originally posted by illadelph12
Essentially. The dive is part of his reality warping abilities, which is actually Neo's only power. The other displays (flight, speed, telekinesis, etc) all stem from and are applications of that base ability.

It's quirky, but that's the way it is.

How often are characters in comics subjected to something like that, that would provide indication that they'd either be susceptible or immune.

Because Circe can use her magic to transform Superman, does that mean Neo can dive into him?

It seems like it would get very complicated in any match up... but que sera.

Originally posted by marwash22
IIRC, people think he's mid-Meta. mmm

In my opinion Neo's above Mid-Meta, but he's also really hard to guage.

I'd say at least High Meta, to a possible Elite Meta/Low Herald, but he could hang with people higher up due to the nature of his powers.

Originally posted by -Pr-
We don't know what his jumping inside of Smith actually is. How is anyone supposed to argue that he could do it to Luke Cage, Colossus, Thor or Superman?

it is a fact that some of both codes that make up either avatar were swapped allowing swith to evolve to virtual life with the ability to spread his code around like a virus (low life form) instead of just transferring his code to unawakened humans in the matrix grid like all agents can.

neo gained awareness of machine code in the real world since the programming for them should be universal, and since his brain (and all "matrixed" humans) have cybernetic implants, he can see and send/receive code wirelessly.

all imo of coarse

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my thing is, any programmer or anyone who knows what programming is, knows that all neo is doing is hacking the matrix and "playing with the physics" of that world like i can in counter-strike if i wanted to.

how this is transferrred to the battledome or whatever is kinda sketchy imo. making ironman's armour act funny is one thing, but him doing his "superman thing" in the battledome is another

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non-dc characters don't dereive their kinetic motion from the speed force, but in order for flash's powers to affect them (speed steal in particular) they would have to be now connected and empowered by it like dc characrers are. this could be problematic since a guy like surfer would then be speed force amped and whatnot, just so the flash can manipulate it like it's natural for that sort of thing to happen.