Darth Nihilus vs. Darth Revan

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Then shut the **** up and stop bitching, you're annoying as hell. I've already offered my proof, if you don't like it, boo hoo. Your debating skills and understanding of canon policy is laughable. Go back to the drawing board.

Let's see if I can translate that correctly...

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
I'm asking for it.

Sorry, Darth, but that's a warning to you. I don't know what makes you think you can get away with that. If you dislike Nikkolas or his views, than you can use the Ignore feature or simply keep it to yourself.

Omfg, Soundgarden fan. Yay!

Originally posted by Thousand
A) Stop spouting useless jargon about how logical you are when all you've done is throw around rhetoric about how you can perform logical deductions in a verbal manner.

B) Your apparent angry state and avatar convince me that it's heavily possible that you are a Revan fanboy.

Except I DID perform a logical deduction, so thanks for pointing out the obvious.

1. That is my job when his statements aren't 100% fact.

2. Revan knowing NIihlus' tehnique is a logical deduction based on him pillaging both Korriban and the underground cities of Malachor V.

I'm not sure where you make that connection from, really. Revan did have access to Korriban and Malachor V before other Sith of his era, and his works before he returned to the Republic captured in his holocron gave Bane the neccessary ingrediants for a Thought-Bomb. But there's nothing to indicate that a Force-draining ability on the scale of Nihilus' was ever in his keeping or ability. That remains conjecture based on vague assertions at its best. I could also assume that because Sidious took over the Jedi temple he can do a "wall of light", blind someone to the Force, or do moricho, but the canon evidence for him doing or having the ability to do any of those things is, if I'm not mistaken, lacking.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
I'm not sure where you make that connection from, really. Revan did have access to Korriban and Malachor V before other Sith of his era, and his works before he returned to the Republic captured in his holocron gave Bane the neccessary ingrediants for a Thought-Bomb. But there's nothing to indicate that a Force-draining ability on the scale of Nihilus' was ever in his keeping or ability. That remains conjecture based on vague assertions at its best. I could also assume that because Sidious took over the Jedi temple he can do a "wall of light", blind someone to the Force, or do moricho, but the canon evidence for him doing or having the ability to do any of those things is, if I'm not mistaken, lacking.

So what you're saying Janus, is that Revan, who plundered the underground cities of Malachor V, couldn't know the tehnique, whereas Nihilus learned it somewhere ON the surface of Malachor V? That makes absolutely no sense, unless you were to tell me that by being a wound in the force, that technique became natural for him, in which case I will have no argument for that. I don't think it's a stretch because this can be logically deduced.
Furthermore, if Sidious did capture all of the Jedi holocrons then its NOT a stretch to deduce that Sidious did know the techniques that were in those holocrons. In fact it's more than probable considering Sidious' had an insatiable thirst for force knowledge. Also, keep in mind that as a dark side user, you can't just go around using light side techniques.

Now, we know that one of the techniques that Bane learned was the thought bomb. However, notice how in POD it states that Revan knew techniques that would make Bane shit his pants, and that not even full fledged sith masters would touch. This COULD be a stretch but it wouldn't be illogical to state that one of these scary force techniques could have been the force eating technique.

So what you're saying Janus, is that Revan, who plundered the underground cities of Malachor V, couldn't know the tehnique, whereas Nihilus learned it somewhere ON the surface of Malachor V?

No, it's not. I suggest you take a reading comprehension class, because you're strawmanning and totally missing the point.

My point is that there's no conclusive evidence that Revan has such abilities. He may; he may not. You cannot prove it either way. So why make the assumption that he does have it? That begs for burden of proof, and the fact of the matter is you have absolutely nothing to bring to the table except for "he was on the planet".

Exar Kun was on Yavin IV for enough time that his Massassi built him "hundreds of temples". I don't make the assumption that Exar Kun could do massive illusions like Naga Sadow or create amulets like the one he acquired like they're candy. Simply being there isn't a strong enough connection to directly show that they have the ability.

You're also making two other assumptions here:

1. That Nihilus' own nature didn't change or enhance his understanding of the Force drain technique.

2. That all knowledge the ancient Sith had squirreled away on Malachor V was simple enough and feasible enough for each Sith Lord to study, learn, and eventually master in less than a decade. And again, these Sith Lords lived longer lives than most sentients. This is like me saying that I can walk into a deserted library in southern Greece and then suddenly say I know so much about Spartan history that I can replicate their feats and training and master it simply by virtue of possessing the knowledge.

That's just plain assinine.

That makes absolutely no sense, unless you were to tell me that by being a wound in the force, that technique became natural for him, in which case I will have no argument for that.

Kreia's statements on Nihilus' mentality and his purpose imply that he is less a man and more a force of nature so to speak. Since no other Force user has seemingly become such a thing, it seems unlikely that other practitioners had this advantage he does. Ragnos' scepter was able to strip the Force from planets and Sidious eventually was able to drain the lifeforce from an entire species using his own power, but neither of these two individuals ceased to be just that... individuals. They did not run about the galaxy sapping planets because of their hunger. If anything, Nihilus' hunger implies that he must feed and must have the means to feed. This makes force drain not only come natural to him; it's his first priority. But we can see it's not his only strength. In cut material, he floors Sion and in the flashback we can see he effortlessly throws her around like a rag doll. Whatever level he's operating on, it's extreme.

Furthermore, if Sidious did capture all of the Jedi holocrons then its NOT a stretch to deduce that Sidious did know the techniques that were in those holocrons.

Yes, it is. It assumes the following:

1. That the holocrons were all in working order and not locked or otherwise inaccessible.

2. That the holocrons could be accessed by those of the dark side.

3. That the holocrons could be understood and mastered within the few decades he had them. Mind you, the Jedi temple had literally millenia-old scrolls, holocrons, books, etc. More knowledge than any one being could ever accomplish. Apparently, he's taking the online summer class and will be a master of every conceivable technique on no time.

4. That he would ever want to know the wall of light, or blinding someone to the Force or otherwise using techniques not of the dark side. I doubt such techniques were little more than a curiosity to him, seeing as how he wasn't impressed with the greatest Jedi master in the last millenium.

However, notice how in POD it states that Revan knew techniques that would make Bane shit his pants, and that not even full fledged sith masters would touch. This COULD be a stretch but it wouldn't be illogical to state that one of these scary force techniques could have been the force eating technique.

Perhaps you could illuminate me with a quote, from a page please? I don't recall this at all.

Perhaps you could illuminate me with a quote, from a page please? I don't recall this at all. [/B]

I can't give an exact quote, but the general effect was: Some things Bane learned from Revan's holocron were too frightening for Bane to use...the Thought Bomb was one of the 'darker' techniques.

Is this narration, or third party perspective? It all seems quite vague to me. The Thought-Bomb, which eliminates all life on a given planet, is pretty dark. But I would assume a Force-drain which has the ability to strip a planet and all on it would be much higher on the list.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
[B]No, it's not. I suggest you take a reading comprehension class, because you're strawmanning and totally missing the point.

My point is that there's no conclusive evidence that Revan has such abilities. He may; he may not. You cannot prove it either way. So why make the assumption that he does have it? That begs for burden of proof, and the fact of the matter is you have absolutely nothing to bring to the table except for "he was on the planet".

Exar Kun was on Yavin IV for enough time that his Massassi built him "hundreds of temples". I don't make the assumption that Exar Kun could do massive illusions like Naga Sadow or create amulets like the one he acquired like they're candy. Simply being there isn't a strong enough connection to directly show that they have the ability.

You're also making two other assumptions here:

1. That Nihilus' own nature didn't change or enhance his understanding of the Force drain technique.

2. That all knowledge the ancient Sith had squirreled away on Malachor V was simple enough and feasible enough for each Sith Lord to study, learn, and eventually master in less than a decade. And again, these Sith Lords lived longer lives than most sentients. This is like me saying that I can walk into a deserted library in southern Greece and then suddenly say I know so much about Spartan history that I can replicate their feats and training and master it simply by virtue of possessing the knowledge.

That's just plain assinine.

Kreia's statements on Nihilus' mentality and his purpose imply that he is less a man and more a force of nature so to speak. Since no other Force user has seemingly become such a thing, it seems unlikely that other practitioners had this advantage he does. Ragnos' scepter was able to strip the Force from planets and Sidious eventually was able to drain the lifeforce from an entire species using his own power, but neither of these two individuals ceased to be just that... individuals. They did not run about the galaxy sapping planets because of their hunger. If anything, Nihilus' hunger implies that he must feed and must have the means to feed. This makes force drain not only come natural to him; it's his first priority. But we can see it's not his only strength. In cut material, he floors Sion and in the flashback we can see he effortlessly throws her around like a rag doll. Whatever level he's operating on, it's extreme.

Yes, it is. It assumes the following:

1. That the holocrons were all in working order and not locked or otherwise inaccessible.

2. That the holocrons could be accessed by those of the dark side.

3. That the holocrons could be understood and mastered within the few decades he had them. Mind you, the Jedi temple had literally millenia-old scrolls, holocrons, books, etc. More knowledge than any one being could ever accomplish. Apparently, he's taking the online summer class and will be a master of every conceivable technique on no time.

4. That he would ever want to know the wall of light, or blinding someone to the Force or otherwise using techniques not of the dark side. I doubt such techniques were little more than a curiosity to him, seeing as how he wasn't impressed with the greatest Jedi master in the last millenium.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
Is this narration, or third party perspective? It all seems quite vague to me. The Thought-Bomb, which eliminates all life on a given planet, is pretty dark. But I would assume a Force-drain which has the ability to strip a planet and all on it would be much higher on the list.

I'm currently looking for it in my book, will have the page # in a minute.

Page 229. I don't know if you have the book so I'll just quote the paragraph.

"To Bane it seemed the teachings contained within the single Holocron surpassed those of the Academy's entire archives. Revan had discovered MANY of the rituals of the ancient sith, and as the holocron's avatar explained their nature and purpose, Bane could barely wrap his mind around their awesome potential. Some of the rituals were so terrible, so dangerous to attempt, even for a true sith master, he doubted he would ever dare to use them.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
Is this narration, or third party perspective? It all seems quite vague to me. The Thought-Bomb, which eliminates all life on a given planet, is pretty dark. But I would assume a Force-drain which has the ability to strip a planet and all on it would be much higher on the list.

And I'm pretty sure it was narration

Ok this is understandable. I've never taken a debate course but I was under the assumption that a logical deduction can not only be made, but that it could also be admissible in this case. It's not just a plain black and white "he either knows it or he doesn't".

A logical assertion is made any time someone tries to make a point or prove a fact about something. A logical argument is the case he/she builds surrounding this assertion to give it validity and meaning. A logical deduction is simply a template of coming about a supposed truth through eliminating clear and evident falsehoods.

So with this in mind, the idea that Revan possesses the same or better techniques than Nihilus is an assertion, as is the idea that he has mastered them to some degree or another, or that he has mastered them above Nihilus' own ability.

The logical argument behind this seems to stem from a) Revan having access to Sith storeholds of techniques and knowledge we know only hearsay about, and b) a vague line from PoD. This is flimsy at best.

Mind you, I'm not denying the possibility that Revan could Force-spank the living shit out of Nihilus, but the arguments made simply cannot hold any water at this point. Revan is too much of an unknown, and the knowledge we have on hand is too vague.

Well the Sion scene isn't canon but yea, I'll grant this he has ability. Whether it's magnified by his being a wound, is debatable.

The scene with Sion is supposed to have been released but was cut due to production time constraints. That scene, along with a few others, however, are clearly referenced in cutscenes that did not get chopped. As well, you can find a lot of information still in the game files which were not used but made shipping.

And as for Nihilus; it's important to realize that Traya had access to a powerful Force drain ability, yet she could not overcome him nor could she hope to outdo him on this level. Seeing as Nihilus is the only one who's roaming about sucking planets dry, it would make sense that his state of being a massive wound either enhances this, or is a direct result of his mastery of the technique.

1 and 2 aside, Sidious was described as knowing "every dark and light side technique". This is obviously quite vague but it gives us some idea of what he does. He studies the force, that's ALL he does, so it wouldn't be a stretch to say he could learn these techniques if they were indeed available to him.

Do you have a valid source for the first statement? That seems so hyperbolic that my computer threatened to blue screen on me when the sentence generated. The idea that Sidious could know every single technique from both sides of the Force and yet still be defeated by a fledgling Skywalker or chucked into a reactor by a crippled Vader simply baffles the mind.

Second, Sidious already has enough power and little to no threats against his power by the time he has the time to sack the temple for knowledge. I really don't see him sitting down for years and learning every single (And I mean every single) light side technique possible. I agree that he likely plundered some of it, but the exact extent is simply not available. It is very unlikely that he had seen, read, and mastered everything. Simply unbelievable.

Also, concerning #4, he DID study the light side of the force whether from Plagueis (almost a certainty), or himself, so it's not like he'd shun a technique because it's a lightside technique. He takes techniques for what they're worth, power.

True, but a majority of Jedi teachings are about what?

The Code. Peace, serenity, healing, etc. It's not like the Jedi had virtual a-bomb techniques just laying around in easy eBook format for him to read. He would have to bust his ass just to find out and then master a technique that a Jedi Order hadn't apparently mastered and they had far more time to dedicate themselves (And reason) then he did.

So while again I do agree that he likely had a fieldday with their records, there's absolutely nothing logical about him accessing and learning everything. It's not even possible, given the depth of sources available at the temple.

Page 229. I don't know if you have the book so I'll just quote the paragraph.

"To Bane it seemed the teachings contained within the single Holocron surpassed those of the Academy's entire archives. Revan had discovered MANY of the rituals of the ancient sith, and as the holocron's avatar explained their nature and purpose, Bane could barely wrap his mind around their awesome potential. Some of the rituals were so terrible, so dangerous to attempt, even for a true sith master, he doubted he would ever dare to use them.

Awesome. Thanks for the source. This is actually quite interesting. Isn't Drew Revan's creator, btw?

Hence the verbal fellatios in this book. But Revan's my favorite character so I'm not one to complain

Originally posted by Janus Marius
A logical assertion is made any time someone tries to make a point or prove a fact about something. A logical argument is the case he/she builds surrounding this assertion to give it validity and meaning. A logical deduction is simply a template of coming about a supposed truth through eliminating clear and evident falsehoods.

So with this in mind, the idea that Revan possesses the same or better techniques than Nihilus is an assertion, as is the idea that he has mastered them to some degree or another, or that he has mastered them above Nihilus' own ability.

So while again I do agree that he likely had a fieldday with their records, there's absolutely nothing logical about him accessing and learning everything. It's not even possible, given the depth of sources available at the temple.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
[B]A logical assertion is made any time someone tries to make a point or prove a fact about something. A logical argument is the case he/she builds surrounding this assertion to give it validity and meaning. A logical deduction is simply a template of coming about a supposed truth through eliminating clear and evident falsehoods.

So with this in mind, the idea that Revan possesses the same or better techniques than Nihilus is an assertion, as is the idea that he has mastered them to some degree or another, or that he has mastered them above Nihilus' own ability.

The logical argument behind this seems to stem from a) Revan having access to Sith storeholds of techniques and knowledge we know only hearsay about, and b) a vague line from PoD. This is flimsy at best.

Do you have a valid source for the first statement? That seems so hyperbolic that my computer threatened to blue screen on me when the sentence generated. The idea that Sidious could know every single technique from both sides of the Force and yet still be defeated by a fledgling Skywalker or chucked into a reactor by a crippled Vader simply baffles the mind.

Second, Sidious already has enough power and little to no threats against his power by the time he has the time to sack the temple for knowledge. I really don't see him sitting down for years and learning every single (And I mean every single) light side technique possible. I agree that he likely plundered some of it, but the exact extent is simply not available. It is very unlikely that he had seen, read, and mastered everything. Simply unbelievable.

I'll be bloody honest; I am not about to derail this thread by debating the validity of Sidious' knowledge. So while I do acknowledge your points, LS, I won't address them here.