Best Songwriters of All Time

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
No I don't, infact, I specifically said that isn't the case.

Stop blaming your idiotic misinterpretations on me, I'm not responsible for you. You took me as saying "overall" despite it being clear that I was referring to the technical aspect. It's just you being picky and even then, still getting it wrong. If you're going to try to nab me on a technicality, make sure I'm incorrect;

[b]musician
1. a person who makes music a profession, esp. as a performer of music.
2. any person, whether professional or not, skilled in music.

instrumentalist
1. a person who plays a musical instrument.

Similar thing. Skilled in music/playing a musical instrument. If anything, anybody could be considered an instrumentalist JUST because they play, musician defines it as being SKILLED, which not everybody IS, Prince is. So TECHNICALLY speaking, 2D, you nailed yourself in the foot.

Bye.

-AC [/B]

Bye? All that BS and you still haven't proved he is an OBJECTIVELY better musician, you silly fool. Try again.

You mean keep posting evidence, proof and overwhelming information that proves you incorrect so you can keep denying it?

No thanks. Like I said, I'm not responsible for you, just me, and I've already proven he is, specified what area I am talking about and even given you dictionary definitions.

I can't account for your idiocy.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
You mean keep posting evidence, proof and overwhelming information that proves you incorrect so you can keep denying it?

No thanks. Like I said, I'm not responsible for you, just me, and I've already proven he is, specified what area I am talking about and even given you dictionary definitions.

I can't account for your idiocy.

-AC

You are an idiot. It's not OBJECTIVELY true that prince is a "better musician", you silly dolt. And you haven’t proved anything except that he plays more instruments.. Are you telling me that him playing more instruments makes him better? Prince must be a better musician than an immortal virtuoso like Niccolo Paganini, then since Paganini only played Violin and Guitar. Of course, please provide more "proof", please.

U guys just wanna hate on him,that's cool.
But spare us the stupidity u guys sprout around.

Originally posted by 2D_MASTER
You are an idiot. It's not OBJECTIVELY true that prince is a "better musician", you silly dolt. And you haven’t proved anything except that he plays more instruments.. Are you telling me that him playing more instruments makes him better? Prince must be a better musician than an immortal virtuoso like Niccolo Paganini, then since Paganini only played Violin and Guitar. Of course, please provide more "proof", please.

When did I say that him playing MORE makes him better? Him reaching a skill and technique level of mastery on all of those is what makes him a better technical musician, as I have clearly and explicitly spelled out to you on more than three occassions, which you ignore, because you just wish to continue this. You make things up and run with them simply because you really do have nothing to say.

Prince has been praised by one of the greatest skilled guitarists ever, as one of the best skilled guitarists ever. Sheila E, one of the world's best technical drummers has praised his immense skill as a drummer.

For the last time, he is a better player than Billy Joel, objectively, skill wise. You having problems simply because I said "musician" is not my problem, newbie. What you have to understand is that there is virtually no difference between instrumentalist and musician, in fact, the only difference is that the dictionary defines one as highlighting skill, whereas the other highlights the ability to just play. In which case "musician" and instrumentalist both apply to Prince, so not only are you wrong on that count, but wrong on the count of challenging the FACT that he is objectively the better technical musician. I never once stated he objectively writes better music, that's impossible, but that's what you chose to assume I meant by saying "musician.".

Prince is a 27 instrument virtuoso, Billy Joel is not. If you wish to claim that Steve Vai is wrong, go ahead, just be aware how dumb it'd make you look.

You were wrong, as always.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
When did I say that him playing MORE makes him better? Him reaching a skill and technique level of mastery on all of those is what makes him a better technical musician, as I have clearly and explicitly spelled out to you on more than three occassions, which you ignore, because you just wish to continue this. You make things up and run with them simply because you really do have nothing to say.

Prince has been praised by one of the greatest skilled guitarists ever, as one of the best skilled guitarists ever. Sheila E, one of the world's best technical drummers has praised his immense skill as a drummer.

For the last time, he is a better player than Billy Joel, objectively, skill wise. You having problems simply because I said "musician" is not my problem, newbie. What you have to understand is that there is virtually no difference between instrumentalist and musician, in fact, the only difference is that the dictionary defines one as highlighting skill, whereas the other highlights the ability to just play. In which case "musician" and instrumentalist both apply to Prince, so not only are you wrong on that count, but wrong on the count of challenging the FACT that he is objectively the better technical musician. I never once stated he objectively writes better music, that's impossible, but that's what you chose to assume I meant by saying "musician.".

Prince is a 27 instrument virtuoso, Billy Joel is not. If you wish to claim that Steve Vai is wrong, go ahead, just be aware how dumb it'd make you look.

You were wrong, as always.

-AC

Hahaha, all that irrelevant BS, still no proof to YOUR claim...
Nice way to TRY to cover your ass. Must I quote you again to point out that what you said was extremely vague and idiotic? You made the claim:

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
... Prince is also, objectively, the better musician...
-AC

Now prove it, you weasel. Oh no, you can't. Stop drowning in a puddle or your own stupidity... call it quits.

Originally posted by 2D_MASTER
Hahaha, all that irrelevant BS, still no proof to YOUR claim...
Nice way to TRY to cover your ass. Must I quote you again to point out that what you said was extremely vague and idiotic? You made the claim:

Now prove it, you weasel. Oh no, you can't. Stop drowing in a puddle or your own stupidity... call it quits.

It wasn't vague and idiotic, you are just idiotic. Also you quoted a single line, it takes a big man to put things in his own context.

I have explained what I meant many times since and you still don't grasp the fact, and the proof I have given, toward Prince being a better musician. Everybody who's anybody knows that Prince is one of the most skilled guitarists ever, and that accolade was enforced BY one of the most skilled guitarists ever. So...is he wrong? When has anyone said that about Billy Idol?

It's a well known part of Prince's history that he has mastered, to virtuoso level, a lot of instruments. It's at the point where you're requesting I provide proof that will shatter your ignorance. We both know that I could get Steve Vai and Eric Clapton themselves to come on here and tell you how high THEY rate Prince, and you'd still go "Prove it.".

As stated before, Billy Joel got panned, worldwide, for singing the national anthem out of tune on a Superbowl half time show. Prince's appearance was praised for flawless vocal performance and outstanding MUSICIANSHIP, one of the biggest watched US television broadcasts since the moon landing.

It's not proof you're after, I've given you proof.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=3jMGNe25xNo

Billy Joel cannot play guitar that well, there are many guitarists better than Joel who cannot touch Prince. Billy Joel simply isn't anywhere near as good of a player of any instrument as Prince is, fact. He could never pull off the solo in that first video. Fact.

Read the comments; "Steve Vai ranks him as one of the best.", "Eric Clapton said he's the best guitarist ever.", and they have. Do you wanna discuss how many have said that about Billy Joel? Prince is OBJECTIVELY a better player. You lost the debate before it even started, but I know how it goes. You keep on, I keep knocking you back, we get to a point where you get "tired" of me and then used the silly "Tell everyone you've beaten me." leaving remark.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
It wasn't vague and idiotic, you are just idiotic. Also you quoted a single line, it takes a big man to put things in his own context.

I have explained what I meant many times since and you still don't grasp the fact, and the proof I have given, toward Prince being a better musician. Everybody who's anybody knows that Prince is one of the most skilled guitarists ever, and that accolade was enforced BY one of the most skilled guitarists ever. So...is he wrong? When has anyone said that about Billy Idol?

It's a well known part of Prince's history that he has mastered, to virtuoso level, a lot of instruments. It's at the point where you're requesting I provide proof that will shatter your ignorance. We both know that I could get Steve Vai and Eric Clapton themselves to come on here and tell you how high THEY rate Prince, and you'd still go "Prove it.".

As stated before, Billy Joel got panned, worldwide, for singing the national anthem out of tune on a Superbowl half time show. Prince's appearance was praised for flawless vocal performance and outstanding MUSICIANSHIP, one of the biggest watched US television broadcasts since the moon landing.

It's not proof you're after, I've given you proof.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=3jMGNe25xNo

Billy Joel cannot play guitar that well, there are many guitarists better than Joel who cannot touch Prince. Billy Joel simply isn't anywhere near as good of a player of any instrument as Prince is, fact. He could never pull off the solo in that first video. Fact.

Read the comments; "Steve Vai ranks him as one of the best.", "Eric Clapton said he's the best guitarist ever.", and they have. Do you wanna discuss how many have said that about Billy Joel?

-AC

No you didn’t start singing that "technically better" BS until AFTER I called you out. Nice try, all you typed is useless… you dolt. You see, I never claimed to disagree nor did I ask for proof that he is more "technically skilled" as you put it. Now this is over now that you can't prove he is a "better musician" (your words). It's over, go on talking about how "musically skilled" prince is, I won't argue because I wasn’t asking you to prove that. Get it, eh dolt? Do you get it?

Originally posted by 2D_MASTER
No you didn’t start singing that "technically better" BS until AFTER I called you out. Nice try, all you typed is useless… you dolt. You see, I never claimed to disagree nor did I ask for proof that he is more "technically skilled" as you put it. Now this is over now that you can't prove he is a "better musician" (your words). It's over, go on talking about how "musically skilled" prince is, I won't argue because I wasn’t asking you to prove that. Get it, eh dolt? Do you get it?

That's neither here nor there. I said he's objectively better, you said "How so?", fair question, to which I specified and answered you with this:

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Because he is known for his technical mastery of over 25 instruments, by age 20.

Steve Vai, one of the world's best technical guitarists, was impressed by him, and rates him as one of the best guitarists, technique wise, ever. He plays more or less every single instrument on most of his albums, and a lot of it isn't easy, from a technical stance. Technically speaking, he's the better player of instruments. Not "objectively" better music, objectively better musician/player.

Billy Joel is not a great technical player of any instrument he plays. Not that it matters, lots of great songwriters aren't technical wizards, you don't need to be, I was just stating that Prince is better in that area.

Not only did I MASSIVELY clarify my specified area (Technique etc.), but I went on to say that you don't need to be a technical wizard to be a great songwriter. To which YOU replied, ENTIRELY ignoring anything I'd said and completely assuming the opposite of what I had just posted:

Originally posted by 2D_MASTER
Well, you assume that being a technical instrumentalist is synonymous with being a great overall musician . If you were more specific and said he is a better 'instrumentalist' or that he plays more musical instruments skillfully, you might have a point. Objectively a better musician? You have not proven that.

Why reply, first line, with such a dumb comment? It was clear I wasn't equating ability with overall talent. I specified such. This is over you not coming to terms with the fact that musician can, and does, mean many things, including musicianship and technical ability. So in some way, shape or form, Prince is the better musician, in this case; technically, by fact.

This is over wording, cos you're a retard and you're still wrong. YOU took it upon yourself to suggest I meant overall musician, including anything subjective, which I didn't. That's how you move, though. You make a misinterpretation, purposeful or not, just to have a reason to start an argument you can later run away from.

You were asking me to, ultimately, prove wrong your ignorance over how a word can be used. I'm factually correct, so all you can do now is throw text abuse and tell me I'm a dolt.

You're a sad man and you should be ashamed.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
No, I did specify it first, actually.

This is over you not coming to terms with the fact that musician can, and does, mean many things, including musicianship and technical ability. So in some way, shape or form, Prince is the better musician.

If all of this is over wording, then you're a retard, because you're still wrong. YOU took it upon yourself to suggest I meant overall musician, including anything subjective, which I didn't.

You were asking me to, ultimately, prove wrong your ignorance over how a word can be used. The dictionary agrees with me, so now what?

-AC

What? You're a dolt, the dictionary just proves how vague the term "musician" is and that there ARE many aspects to being a musician. Which was MY point to begin with, dolt. Go back and read. I pointed out that “instrumental skill”( which you now CLAIM to have been talking about) is not the only gauge to judge a musician by, silly ass. Now Stop because you look like more a fumbling dolt every time.

Originally posted by 2D_MASTER
What? You're a dolt, the dictionary just proves how vague the term "musician" is and that there ARE many aspects to being a musician. Which was MY point to begin with, dolt. Go back and read. I pointed out that “instrumental skill”( which you now CLAIM to have been talking about) is not the only gauge to judge a musician by, silly ass. Now Stop because you look like more a fumbling dolt every time.

I'll do it again, since you're too thick-headed to grasp it.

My quote:

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Prince is also, objectively, the better musician.

You:

Originally posted by 2D_MASTER
How so?

Me:

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Because he is known for his technical mastery of over 25 instruments, by age 20.

Steve Vai, one of the world's best technical guitarists, was impressed by him, and rates him as one of the best guitarists, technique wise, ever. He plays more or less every single instrument on most of his albums, and a lot of it isn't easy, from a technical stance. Technically speaking, he's the better player of instruments. Not "objectively" better music, objectively better musician/player.

Billy Joel is not a great technical player of any instrument he plays. Not that it matters, lots of great songwriters aren't technical wizards, you don't need to be, I was just stating that Prince is better in that area.

You:

Originally posted by 2D_MASTER
Well, you assume that being a technical instrumentalist is synonymous with being a great overall musician . If you were more specific and said he is a better 'instrumentalist' or that he plays more musical instruments skillfully, you might have a point. Objectively a better musician? You have not proven that.

I specified everything I needed to, you ignored it, chose to assume the exact opposite, and knowing you couldn't challenge the fact that he IS a more skilled technical musician (Which you originally planned to, I bet.), changed your argument to the same thing you always do to cover up your idiotic interpretive skills; blame it on someone else.

The way to solving this is; ask. Not assume, ask. Although, it's clear you don't care about what's told. I said "Technique", "Technical", and "Technically" about a million times in my FIRST reply to you saying "How so?", which causes me puzzlement on the claim of "You've JUST started claiming that's what you meant.". So we've come to the point where I have personally reduced you to the mess you are now, just do the run away trick and let us move on with the thread,

Let's just hope you don't start PMing me again with "It's a joke." like before.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

Steve Vai, one of the world's best technical guitarists, was impressed by him, and rates him as one of the best guitarists, technique wise, ever. He plays more or less every single instrument on most of his albums, and a lot of it isn't easy, from a technical stance. Technically speaking, he's the better player of instruments. Not "objectively" better music, objectively better musician/player

-AC

I know what you said, you dolt. I never told you to prove that Prince writes better music. I asked you to prove what you stated FOR the second time above, with an OBVIOUS change in phrasing "objectively better musician/player". That was AFTER you merely said "objectively better musician."
And don’t talk about PMs because I have NEVER PMed you (first), I’ve only responded to your bitching that was in my inbox.

No, let's get it right.

I said "Objectively better musician.", you fairly asked "How so?", and I replied with:

"Because he is known for his technical mastery of over 25 instruments, by age 20.".

TECHNICAL MASTERY. That was the FIRST line of my FIRST reply to your question, then I went into clear and specific detail which you chose to not only ignore, but believe - out of nowhere - the opposite and make things up.

This is all because you assumed I meant overall musician, which is just one meaning of the word "musician". You are trying to pin your misinterpretation on me, although to be fair, you didn't even jump to conclusions first, you actually took the sensible route of asking "How so?". What puzzles me is why, after clearly explaining it, you didn't just go "Oh, you meant technique etc.". Actually, I know why; you wanted an argument and was determined to get one.

I said objectively better musician, you asked for clarification, I gave it, you continue bitching, pissing and moaning. No reason for it, at all.

-AC

Think I'd have to go with Jon Bon Jovi and Richie Sambora, feckin dig they'r style ofcourse some of their songs where co written with Desmond Child whos also great 🙂

Stay cool brothers 😉

John lennon
Paul Mcartney
George Harrison
Bob Dylan
Keith Richards
Jim Morrison
Freddie Mercury
Brian May
Chuck Berry

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
2D, I actually have a reply to that typed out and saved, and I will post it when you answer MY question. I see no reason to indulge you when you will not answer anything I ask YOU;

How can you be a songwriter if you don't write songs?

Answer this and I'll post my reply to your question.

It doesn't matter, if you are judging CHART SUCCESS, Prince has been at number one eight times. Billy Joel has been there THREE times. NUMBER ONE being the highest possibly place, PLUS Prince other very high charting singles, he has collectively got not only more higher placing hits, but has achieved more number ones.

He's just more successful, no shame in it, but he is.

Five as a solo artist, two with The Revolution, one with The New Power Generation. All of which were songs wrote by him.

So? You based your argument on hits, Prince wins in that area. If you want to shift the debate elsewhere because you've lost, that's your deal.

-AC

CHART SUCCESS is equal to the ONLY WAY to determine the success of a song. You are saying that just because Joel hasn't written as many songs as Prince he isn't a better song writer. Joel has beaten Prince in terms of Top 40s despite Prince coming out with an album basically each and every year.

You keep saying Prince has have 8 number 1s but I see only 5; show some info to back up your words. You call Prince the more successful artist despite the fact Joel has more hits, more album sales, and has made more from all his shows.

Joel > Prince

That top 40 doesn't even include Nasty Girl, A Love Bizarre, Manic monday, Nothing Compares 2 U & others.
Prince just is more succesfull face it.

He even won an oscar!

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
It wasn't vague and idiotic, you are just idiotic. Also you quoted a single line, it takes a big man to put things in his own context.

I have explained what I meant many times since and you still don't grasp the fact, and the proof I have given, toward Prince being a better musician. Everybody who's anybody knows that Prince is one of the most skilled guitarists ever, and that accolade was enforced BY one of the most skilled guitarists ever. So...is he wrong? When has anyone said that about Billy Idol?

It's a well known part of Prince's history that he has mastered, to virtuoso level, a lot of instruments. It's at the point where you're requesting I provide proof that will shatter your ignorance. We both know that I could get Steve Vai and Eric Clapton themselves to come on here and tell you how high THEY rate Prince, and you'd still go "Prove it.".

As stated before, Billy Joel got panned, worldwide, for singing the national anthem out of tune on a Superbowl half time show. Prince's appearance was praised for flawless vocal performance and outstanding MUSICIANSHIP, one of the biggest watched US television broadcasts since the moon landing.

It's not proof you're after, I've given you proof.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=3jMGNe25xNo

Billy Joel cannot play guitar that well, there are many guitarists better than Joel who cannot touch Prince. Billy Joel simply isn't anywhere near as good of a player of any instrument as Prince is, fact. He could never pull off the solo in that first video. Fact.

Read the comments; "Steve Vai ranks him as one of the best.", "Eric Clapton said he's the best guitarist ever.", and they have. Do you wanna discuss how many have said that about Billy Joel? Prince is OBJECTIVELY a better player. You lost the debate before it even started, but I know how it goes. You keep on, I keep knocking you back, we get to a point where you get "tired" of me and then used the silly "Tell everyone you've beaten me." leaving remark.

-AC

And Prince can't play the piano as well as Joel. Joel calls himself a pianist first, singer second. I sorry no one has ever said Joel (who is known as the PIANO MAN) as one of the best guartist ever. Heck even the great Ray Charles said Joel would be remembered as one of the greatest singers of his era. Elton John has called Joel a grand pianist whose vocals cannot be easily matched.

Nelly Furtado, Stevie Wonder, Jon Bon Jovi, Diana Krall, Rob Thomas, and Natalie Cole all have performed Billy Joel songs calling him the best songerwriter. Heck even American Idol had a Billy Joel night. I have yet to see a Prince night. All them called Joel a master of the piano.

http://www.dailymotion.com/relevance/search/prince+piano/video/x18a6o_princeavalanche_events

Originally posted by ESB -1138
CHART SUCCESS is equal to the ONLY WAY to determine the success of a song. You are saying that just because Joel hasn't written as many songs as Prince he isn't a better song writer. Joel has beaten Prince in terms of Top 40s despite Prince coming out with an album basically each and every year.

You keep saying Prince has have 8 number 1s but I see only 5; show some info to back up your words. You call Prince the more successful artist despite the fact Joel has more hits, more album sales, and has made more from all his shows.

Joel > Prince

That ISN'T what I'm saying. "Better" is subjective when it comes to QUALITY. I'm saying he's not as successful as Prince, if you think he's better, then name him for this thread because of his SONGWRITING quality, not because of success. I'm not naming Prince because of success, I'm naming him because I believe his quality to be superior. YOU were the one who kept saying everyone was blind to agreeing Billy Joel is the best songwriter BECAUSE he has hits. If hits is how you decide, Prince wins. If it's QUALITY OF MUSIC, it's opinion.

You see FIVE under the name PRINCE. He has had FIVE solo, TWO with The Revolution and ONE with The New Power Generation. They aren't all listed under "Prince". He did, however, write them.

Prince > Joel. Success = Objectively. Quality = Subjectively.

Originally posted by ESB -1138
And Prince can't play the piano as well as Joel. Joel calls himself a pianist first, singer second. I sorry no one has ever said Joel (who is known as the PIANO MAN) as one of the best guartist ever. Heck even the great Ray Charles said Joel would be remembered as one of the greatest singers of his era. Elton John has called Joel a grand pianist whose vocals cannot be easily matched.

Yeah, like that time he got trashed for failing to hit the notes on the national anthem, Prince's half time show went down as the greatest half time show ever, one of the biggest watched televised events since the moon landing. Joel? No, Prince.

Originally posted by ESB -1138
Nelly Furtado, Stevie Wonder, Jon Bon Jovi, Diana Krall, Rob Thomas, and Natalie Cole all have performed Billy Joel songs calling him the best songerwriter. Heck even American Idol had a Billy Joel night. I have yet to see a Prince night. All them called Joel a master of the piano.

So you're saying that because American Idol, a show geared toward making corporate puppets to gain money, say something...it's true? How very stupid and desperate.

So what if NELLY FURTADO has performed Joel songs? Do I need to give you the list of how many people have not only performed Prince songs, but songs written BY Prince FOR them?

What are we discussing? Who makes better quality music? Who has more success or who is more influential? Prince is undeniably and factually the better skilled musician, when it comes to playing instruments. Joel being a "great" piano player doesn't make him more skilled at it.

The thread is "Best Songwriter." so I think we should just be discussing why we think the music itself is worthy of the accolade. YOU brought up hits, I countered you and now you're clutching at desperate straws.

-AC