Hypothetical Question..

Originally posted by willRules
In my Church we don't have Christening's, we have dedications. We believe that a child can't make choice for itself and so we say that a parent can have their child dedicated to the Church, where the Church promises to raise the child as part of the Church community Through Sunday school and stuff) where the Child will be taught Christian teaching and the Church will promote our beliefs and make our feelings regarding life the universe and everything clear to the child as they grow up but we give the child the choice. Ultimately we present the case for Christianity to the child but we realise it's their choice, which personally I think is the best way to do it (Although I would say that as I am a bias Christian 😄 )

That sounds a good way of doing it.

Originally posted by Bicnarok
That sounds a good way of doing it.

It sounds like indoctrination.

Originally posted by willRules
In my Church we don't have Christening's, we have dedications. We believe that a child can't make choice for itself and so we say that a parent can have their child dedicated to the Church, where the Church promises to raise the child as part of the Church community Through Sunday school and stuff) where the Child will be taught Christian teaching and the Church will promote our beliefs and make our feelings regarding life the universe and everything clear to the child as they grow up but we give the child the choice. Ultimately we present the case for Christianity to the child but we realise it's their choice, which personally I think is the best way to do it (Although I would say that as I am a bias Christian 😄 )

Just out of interest while they get the case for Christianity (from a young age) where and when do they start getting the case for, well, other views regarding life, the universe and everything?

Originally posted by willRules
In my Church we don't have Christening's, we have dedications. We believe that a child can't make choice for itself and so we say that a parent can have their child dedicated to the Church, where the Church promises to raise the child as part of the Church community Through Sunday school and stuff) where the Child will be taught Christian teaching and the Church will promote our beliefs and make our feelings regarding life the universe and everything clear to the child as they grow up but we give the child the choice. Ultimately we present the case for Christianity to the child but we realise it's their choice, which personally I think is the best way to do it (Although I would say that as I am a bias Christian 😄 )

You contradict yourself, first you say "a child can't make choice for itself", then you say "we present the case for Christianity to the child but we realise it's their choice". Huh? Reminds me of the famous Henry Ford quote..."You can have your car any color, as long as it's black."

How can they make a choice when only one side is presented and/or, one side is presented as the "only right choice" and where other choices will result in punishment, as a fact?

Basically, what you purpose is:

Originally posted by Adam_PoE
It sounds like indoctrination.

Originally posted by Robtard
You contradict yourself, first you say "a child can't make choice for itself", then you say "we present the case for Christianity to the child but we realise it's their choice". Huh? Reminds me of the famous Henry Ford quote..."You can have your car any color, as long as it's black."

How can they make a choice when only one side is presented and/or, one side is presented as the "only right choice" and where other choices will result in punishment, as a fact?

Basically, what you purpose is:

Originally posted by Adam_PoE
It sounds like indoctrination.

It would be silly to suggest that presenting a case for anything whilst someones making a decision wouldn't be influential (the same applies to all faiths including atheism)

However they aren't pushed into making a choice at any specific age in their life, they are not pushed into attending or coming along to services or Sunday schools. Should any of them choose to attend a service or a Sunday school, then yes we will present the case for Christianity. ✅

Yes we present the case for Christianity, but people need to remember, I am referring to a Church, which surprisingly, is a predominantly Christian environment. If someone wanted to hear about Judaism they might visit a mosque, or atheism they might visit a seedy bar or a Star Trek convention 😛

However many of them do choose to attend of their own accord (Indoctrination I hear you yell) many of them do choose to listen to what we have to say (We're twisting with their minds you shout) and many of them, of their own accord, choose to become Christians (INDOCTRINATION!!! you shout to further your vendetta against something people have chosen of their own free will) and many of them live their lives as someone who chooses to accept Jesus as their personal lord and saviour ✅

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
Just out of interest while they get the case for Christianity (from a young age) where and when do they start getting the case for, well, other views regarding life, the universe and everything?

that would be presented to them when/if they choose to investigate these places. Someone who goes to a Church probably expects a Christian message ✅

Originally posted by willRules
that would be presented to them when/if they choose to investigate these places. Someone who goes to a Church probably expects a Christian message ✅

Naturally, but they are children, how much of it is there choice to go to Church expecting a Christian message?

If the child says to the parents at age five, six, seven "I don't want to go to Church" does the parent say "ok, you don't have to go to Church"?

This interests me, because back in infants and primary schools there was two hours a week given to Christian scripture time (this was just an ordinary public school not a Christian one.) Now I personally didn't feel like I was benefiting from it, yet outside of children of actual different faiths one automatically had to go. Of course I could have got a note from my parents to be excluded if I wished (they gave me that option) but that seemed needlessly complex since I'd need a new note every week, and my friends would still be going, so if I didn't go it would pretty much be me alone in a classroom with a find a word (which would be an even larger waste of time.) And there were other kids who I knew didn't want to be there but in their case their parents wouldn't consider giving them a note to get out of it, as they saw it as valuable for them.

In fact now that I think back on it I was the only one I know of who had an actual choice about going or not, and that was because of my parents, where as plenty of kids had no choice.

What I am asking is what balance of choice does the child have compared to the parents wishes?

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura

What I am asking is what balance of choice does the child have compared to the parents wishes?

I understand where you are going with this, but is religion any worse than any other "idea" that parents put into their kids heads?

Hell, good things, like hygiene habbits, would you say that a child should have a choice about learning to bathe properly? what about in their medical procedures, should a conscent form be needed to give a child an immunization?

Yes, I am using silly examples, but the idea that a parent doesn't have the right to dominate the mind of their child is a very strange and novel concept. It is clearly unfortunate how many minds will be wasted by indoctrination, but looked at objectively, everything you know is indoctrination on the same level as religion.

wow, this just started me on a new tangent... Christian anti-abortionists are the most ardant supporters of "the rights of the unborn", ie, they think that a fetus should have the same human rights as an adult. From that I will assume that they also believe that the child then should have the same constitutional rights. So, children have the same rights as adults, yet how many of these people would extend, say, mobility rights to their child... im going to stop now before I ramble more...

Originally posted by inimalist
I understand where you are going with this, but is religion any worse than any other "idea" that parents put into their kids heads?

Yes. Especially when those parents are using that religion as a basis for spreading ignorance.

Originally posted by inimalist
Yes, I am using silly examples, but the idea that a parent doesn't have the right to dominate the mind of their child is a very strange and novel concept. It is clearly unfortunate how many minds will be wasted by indoctrination, but looked at objectively, everything you know is indoctrination on the same level as religion.

I never really thought of it as the right or duty of a parent to dominate their children's minds. I always more saw it as their duty to provide the best they can (say knowledge wise) so their child can grow up healthy and happy and capable of making their way in life.

Which is why "indoctrination" makes me somewhat melancholy - parents who do their best to "choose" their child's religion as opposed to simply giving them the option to follow it.

I simply differentiate between things a child needs to be taught for their own well-being, such as the hygiene habits and immunization you mentioned and the kind of things that should be personal and decided upon by them in their own time - which is where I would put things such as religion, the types of politics they follow and whether they wish to be vegetarians or not (all cases I can think of with examples of where good attempts were made to essentially mold the child's stance into the parents stance, and when they are being taught to mimic such things from an early age they really can miss out on the chance to chose their own way on such issues).

Which is where I was going with the example above - it was stated the child has choice, someone who goes to Church expects a Christian message - how much is their going to Church their own desire to learn that Christian message?

Originally posted by Devil King
Yes. Especially when those parents are using that religion as a basis for spreading ignorance.

don't christians consider secular values to be ignorant?

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
I never really thought of it as the right or duty of a parent to dominate their children's minds. I always more saw it as their duty to provide the best they can (say knowledge wise) so their child can grow up healthy and happy and capable of making their way in life.

Which is why "indoctrination" makes me somewhat melancholy - parents who do their best to "choose" their child's religion as opposed to simply giving them the option to follow it.

I simply differentiate between things a child needs to be taught for their own well-being, such as the hygiene habits and immunization you mentioned and the kind of things that should be personal and decided upon by them in their own time - which is where I would put things such as religion, the types of politics they follow and whether they wish to be vegetarians or not (all cases I can think of with examples of where good attempts were made to essentially mold the child's stance into the parents stance, and when they are being taught to mimic such things from an early age they really can miss out on the chance to chose their own way on such issues).

Which is where I was going with the example above - it was stated the child has choice, someone who goes to Church expects a Christian message - how much is their going to Church their own desire to learn that Christian message?

My take on this is that you, as an individual, have certain things which you think are very important to your survival and ability to be a productive and happy human being. Those are things you would pass onto your child.

All I would say is that a Christian feels the same way. They just have a different equation for judging the value of things that their child needs.

How much a child desires to do something is moot. Children don't like to eat vegetables, and you can justify forcing them to because eating vegetables passes your standard for something good to be taught to children.

I agree so passionatly that children should not embrace religion, and that any self respecting rational adult would never subject their child to that kind of manipulation, but the "doing something against the child's will" is not a strong argument, even if you say "they may not have wanted to do it when they grow up" (which is akin to predicting the future) or even worse "they are missing out on so much more" (which is really "They are missing out on what made me who I am" and is a direct prediction of the future and the assumption that others have the same values as you do).

Originally posted by inimalist
don't christians consider secular values to be ignorant?

you tell me.

But that wasn't my point. The Nazis used science to prove that Africans and Jews were inferior species. How intelligent (or TRUE?) was that?

Originally posted by inimalist
My take on this is that you, as an individual, have certain things which you think are very important to your survival and ability to be a productive and happy human being. Those are things you would pass onto your child.

and that's cool. That's all part of having children. But it's when you raise your children to believe that their parent's opinions/teachings are "informed" opinions, beyond reproach, that the problem occurs.

It all goes back to being so certain about what you believe, when you absolutely can't be.

Originally posted by Devil King
Yes. Especially when those parents are using that religion as a basis for spreading ignorance.

Originally posted by FeceMan
Statement: Captain_Fantastic should remember that humanism is as much a religion as Christianity is.

Statement: Capt_Fantastic is not going to debate you when you speak in the second and third person. You've mocked people for doing that in the past.

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
Naturally, but they are children, how much of it is there choice to go to Church expecting a Christian message?

If the child says to the parents at age five, six, seven "I don't want to go to Church" does the parent say "ok, you don't have to go to Church"?

This interests me, because back in infants and primary schools there was two hours a week given to Christian scripture time (this was just an ordinary public school not a Christian one.) Now I personally didn't feel like I was benefiting from it, yet outside of children of actual different faiths one automatically had to go. Of course I could have got a note from my parents to be excluded if I wished (they gave me that option) but that seemed needlessly complex since I'd need a new note every week, and my friends would still be going, so if I didn't go it would pretty much be me alone in a classroom with a find a word (which would be an even larger waste of time.) And there were other kids who I knew didn't want to be there but in their case their parents wouldn't consider giving them a note to get out of it, as they saw it as valuable for them.

In fact now that I think back on it I was the only one I know of who had an actual choice about going or not, and that was because of my parents, where as plenty of kids had no choice.

What I am asking is what balance of choice does the child have compared to the parents wishes?

Well in this case I can only speak for myself. If what you are saying is true then I have been very fortunate. My Mum took me to Church every Sunday but clearly expressed, when I was old enough to understand that it was my choice. I chose to continue to keep going to Church. This was a conscious decision that I made. It was made clear to me that my Mum's wishes were for me to attend Church but ultimately it was my choice. I chose to go to Church not because my Mum wants me to go, but because I feel it is right for me to worship God. Even if some reason my Mum can't make it to Church on a random week, I will try my best to get there ✅

Now, on a more generalised note, I understand that some Church's, Synagogue's etc etc could be accused of indoctrinating Children into their faith, but I can assure you that the Church I go to does not intend to convert people through indoctrination. It intends to convert people through preaching the message of the Salvation of Jesus.

Whilst I'm sure the majority of the Christian community would agree with me, I wish I could say the same for every Church ✅

Originally posted by willRules
My Mum took me to Church every Sunday . . .

It was made clear to me that my Mum's wishes were for me to attend Church . . .

This is covert indoctrination.

Originally posted by willRules
. . . but clearly expressed, when I was old enough to understand that it was my choice. I chose to continue to keep going to Church. This was a conscious decision that I made.

. . . but ultimately it was my choice.

The alternative is to reject a lifetime of social conditioning and openly defy the wishes of a parent; some choice.

Originally posted by Goddess Kali
Feceman, I disagree with your stance: If two people love eachother, than thier religions should not matter. Your corrinthians quote claims that a religious person is moral, while an atheist is immoral. A black and white stereotype. Not only do I not appreciate it, I thought you were much smarter than that.

Originally posted by Goddess Kali
Kelly Bean - I think each parent should teach thier child what they beleive and explain why. Not right away, but when the child reaches the age which both parents feel they can explain. Allow the child to make up his or her own mind, see what works for him or her.

Originally posted by Goddess Kali
Also, encourage your child to do research on many philosophies and faiths, so that he or she can learn more, and determine what works best. Education is the key, Ignorance is the problem.

Originally posted by Goddess Kali
[b]Feceman, I disagree with your stance: If two people love eachother, than thier religions should not matter. Your corrinthians quote claims that a religious person is moral, while an atheist is immoral. A black and white stereotype. Not only do I not appreciate it, I thought you were much smarter than that. [/B]

Statement: Christians are called to live their lives in a wholly different way from non-believers. It is likely that the non-Christian will be a significant impediment in certain affairs, such as premarital sex--and thus it is not wise for the Christian to attach himself or herself to such a stumbling block.

Originally posted by Devil King
Statement: Capt_Fantastic is not going to debate you when you speak in the second and third person. You've mocked people for doing that in the past.

Pelase stop the HK-47 nonsense.

Originally posted by FeceMan
Statement: While FeceMan does not believe that it is immoral (per se) for a Christian to pursue a relationship with a non-Christian, he also believes that it is against the best interests of the Christian involved.

Statement: Christians are called to live their lives in a wholly different way from nonbelievers. It is likely that the non-Christian will be a significant impediment in certain affairs, such as premarital sex--and thus it is not wise for the Christian to attach himself or herself to such a stumbling block.

Do you think you could give us a bit of a road map for the means and ways that Christians, since we are talking about a pretty big group here, live differently then nonbelievers?

I have a friend who is in a relationship with a Christian who wants to "wait till marriage" - and while that hasn't been an issue in his previous relationships. But this relationship for him, so he says, is the "one", and he is happy to wait, what with the whole "I love her and respect her wishes" thing. And from what seems to be the norm I don't think a massive majority of Christians are abstaining from premarital sex.

Unless there is some real evidence that "it is not wise for a Christian to attach themselves to such a stumbling block" (that is a relationship with a nonbeliever will cause problems simply because they are a nonbeliever) I am going to have to make doubtful noises in the back of my throat.

Statement: Captain_Fantastic should remember that humanism is as much a religion as Christianity is.

I'd actually consider it a philosophy, but whatever.