Originally posted by h1a8
When Thor fought Juggs (I think the first time) he slammed hard with Mjolnir on him. It didn't even tickle Juggs. That is one hell of a durability feat. So I'm referring to the fact that Odin needs at least 20x more force behind his punch to have a chance.
The only time Juggernaut has tanked a Mjolnir blow without his force field is during the 8th day tie-in. So no example you're thinking of is relevant.
For the record, Thor's never used charged hammer attacks so he's hardly hit Cain with his best either.
You need to give your arguments at least some thought more thought.
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
The only time Juggernaut has tanked a Mjolnir blow without his force field is during the 8th day tie-in. So no example you're thinking of is relevant.For the record, Thor's never used charged hammer attacks so he's hardly hit Cain with his best either.
You need to give your arguments
at least some thoughtmore thought.
Who cares about Juggs forcefield? If you employ that he has one in comics then he will have one in this fight. Remember this is all of Juggernaut vs. Odin (but reduced to fighting with his fists only). This is clearly the OPs intentions (whatever Juggs is most invulnerable at).
Originally posted by h1a8
Who cares about Juggs forcefield? If you employ that he has one in comics then he will have one in this fight. Remember this is all of Juggernaut vs. Odin (but reduced to fighting with his fists only). This is clearly the OPs intentions (whatever Juggs is most invulnerable at).
I do, so do other people. It's a distinction worth noting, stop pretending otherwise.
Until said otherwise, I'm assuming this is purely a fist fight. A magic force field that slows down momentum would go directly against that. Otherwise, I might as well argue Odin creates his own force field or simply uses his powers to cancel out Cain's. You can't have your cake and eat it too.
I'm still waiting for those uber durability feats that prove Juggernaut's near Universal level durability. Just because you ignore it doesn't mean it'll go away. I'm not forgetting about all of those earlier claims you were making.
h2h combat, but Juggernaut with his full retinue of powers.
Odin must fight physically, because otherwise he'd just cancel out Juggernaut's connection to Cyttorak and kill him.
Odin can use the OdinForce to amp himself up, if that is necessary.
Remember, WarHulk negated Juggernaut's fundamental trick of being "unstoppable", so did the GodBlast that Thor unleashed.
WWH managed to stop Juggernaut too, redirecting his momentum into the ground, as a result (similar to what happened when Juggernaut took a GodBlast).
So ... carry on.
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
I do, so do other people. It's a distinction worth noting, stop pretending otherwise.Until said otherwise, I'm assuming this is purely a fist fight. A magic force field that slows down momentum would go directly against that. Otherwise, I might as well argue Odin creates his own force field or simply uses his powers to cancel out Cain's. You can't have your cake and eat it too.
I'm still waiting for those feats by the way.
He's not going to show any fts. Why waste your time? Everyone here knows Odin stomps...its just that simple.
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
I do, so do plenty of other people. It's a distinction worth noting, stop pretending otherwise.Until said otherwise, I'm assuming this is purely a fist fight.
A magic force field that slows down momentum would go directly against it. Otherwise, I might as well argue Odin creates his own force field or simply uses his powers to cancel out Cain's. After all, the OP said Odin can use the Odin Force as much as he wants. You can't have your cake and eat it too.
I'm still waiting for those feats by the way.
First question.
What would you say if the OP wants
Juggs to have his force field on and Odin to only use his fists and no other powers?
Second question. When Thor delivered that mighty slam on Juggs in their first fight there was no mention of a force field stopping the hammer, slowing down the hammer, or even existing when Thor struck. Do you agree? If not, then why? If yes, then do you think it was the writer's intention that Juggs no sold the blow because of his durability without a force field?
Originally posted by janus77
h2h combat, but Juggernaut with his full retinue of powers.Odin must fight physically, because otherwise he'd just cancel out Juggernaut's connection to Cyttorak and kill him.
Odin can use the OdinForce to amp himself up, if that is necessary.
Remember, WarHulk negated Juggernaut's fundamental trick of being "unstoppable", so did the GodBlast that Thor unleashed.
WWH managed to stop Juggernaut too, redirecting his momentum into the ground, as a result (similar to what happened when Juggernaut took a GodBlast).
So ... carry on.
I understand that they're fully powered, but does Juggernaut get to use his magic force field? The wording is still unclear.
Originally posted by h1a8
First question.
What would you say if the OP wants
Juggs to have his force field on and Odin to only use his fists and no other powers?Second question. When Thor delivered that mighty slam on Juggs in their first fight there was no mention of a force field stopping the hammer, slowing down the hammer, or even existing when Thor struck. Do you agree? If not, then why? If yes, then do you think it was the writer's intention that Juggs no sold the blow because of his durability without a force field?
I'd question whether he knows what a hand to hand fight entails.
You are a special kind of idiot. Juggernaut went out of his way to present his force field:
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/Thor/WeakThorvsJuggernaut7.jpg
DeFalco -like anyone who's done research should- emphasized that Juggernaut's force field was the main reason for his invulnerability very clearly. I mean my god, he even mentions it when Thor gives him his best shot:
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/Thor/JuggernautvsThor2.jpg
There's no loop holes here, it's all in the comics.
I'm still waiting on those high end durability feats. Force field or no force field, you're going to have present some or concede to being a liar. I refuse to believe anyone could talk so much shit without actually doing any research.
Originally posted by janus77
Yes, Juggernaut has his forcefield available to him. I figured that was part of his whole "Juggernaut package".
Well, thanks for nothing, I was this close to having H1 concede and/or jump off a building.
Is Odin able to amp and charge his fists? And if so, is there any limit to the amount of energy he can channel? I'm assuming no size changing, force field creation etc. are available to him.
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Well, thanks for nothing, I was this close to having H1 concede and/or jump off a building.Is Odin able to amp and charge his fists? And if so, is there any limit to the amount of energy he can channel? I'm assuming no size changing, force field creation etc. are available to him.
What's the point of pitting Juggernaut against Odin, if you cripple Juggernaut's physical defences?
That's why I said Odin gets to use all his Odin Force via whatever kind of physical attacks you can think of. Obviously fists would be a pretty important delivery mechanism, but you could have other things happen, like Odin smacking Juggernaut with his own fists... 😕
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Well, thanks for nothing, I was this close to having H1 concede and/or jump off a building.Is Odin able to amp and charge his fists? And if so, is there any limit to the amount of energy he can channel? I'm assuming no size changing, force field creation etc. are available to him.
I'll give it a go. Odin is above the Juggernaut, because the simple fact that Cain was unable to pick Mjolnir up shows us that the Odin force is greater than anything that Cain could muster. This may seem like poor reasoning, but if Cain was truly unstoppable due to his magical nature, he would have been able to lift the hammer, and nothing would have been able to stop him from getting the hammer from point a to point b, which in this case, would be off of the ground that it rested upon.
This being said, Odin would surely be able to blow right through his enchantment, because the Odin force was shown to be above his enchantment, as I made clear above. If Odin decided to use everything at is disposal in terms of his personal power, he would not only hurt Cain, but he would punch right through him.
A simple spell, or small portion from the Odin Force binding Mjolnir is greater than Cytorrak's enchantment on Cain. The full weight of the Odin Force, is far greater than Cytorrak's enchantment on Cain.
Originally posted by janus77
well, much as I'd like to have been partially responsible for cleansing the gene-pool, I was forced into clarifying what I had thought already clear.What's the point of pitting Juggernaut against Odin, if you cripple Juggernaut's physical defences?
That's why I said Odin gets to use all his Odin Force via whatever kind of physical attacks you can think of. Obviously fists would be a pretty important delivery mechanism, but you could have other things happen, like Odin smacking Juggernaut with his own fists... 😕
You knew about the force field even back then? Well props, few did.
Because the force field negates any physical contact. It's like placing someone in hand to hand fight but allowing them to retain the ability to turn intangible. But I digress, it's your thread after all.
Okay, define physical attacks. Do energy blasts count?
Originally posted by Stoic
I'll give it a go. Odin is above the Juggernaut, because the simple fact that Cain was unable to pick Mjolnir up shows us that the Odin force is greater than anything that Cain could muster. This may seem like poor reasoning, but if Cain was truly unstoppable due to his magical nature, he would have been able to lift the hammer, and nothing would have been able to stop him from getting the hammer from point a to point b, which in this case, would be off of the ground that it rested upon.This being said, Odin would surely be able to blow right through his enchantment, because the Odin force was shown to be above his enchantment, as I made clear above. If Odin decided to use everything at is disposal in terms of his personal power, he would not only hurt Cain, but he would punch right through him.
A simple spell, or small portion from the Odin Force binding Mjolnir is greater than Cytorrak's enchantment on Cain. The full weight of the Odin Force, is far greater than Cytorrak's enchantment on Cain.
The reasoning might not be completely solid but I also have very little doubt that Odin could punch right through Juggernaut's force field. And his face.
It just becomes trickier to prove because I don't think it's ever been punctured (Thor used Mjolnir to negate it or whatever though) and some idiots people think that means no amount of force can penetrate it. With the amount of power Odin has thrown around though, I'm more inclined to favor him because while Cytorrak himself may be comparable to the All-Father in power, his avatar imho isn't.
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
The reasoning might not be completely solid but I also have very little doubt that Odin could punch right through Juggernaut's force field. And his face.It just becomes trickier to prove because I don't think it's ever been punctured (Thor used Mjolnir to negate it or whatever though) and some
idiotspeople think that means no amount of force can penetrate it. With the amount of power Odin has thrown around though, I'm more inclined to favor him because while Cytorrak himself may be comparable to the All-Father in power, his avatar imho isn't.
Hey man I was giving it my best without attempting to bend the truth. The idea of Cain sparring with Odin for anything lasting more than 5-10 minutes is absolutely incomprehensible. Cain is simply not on the same level. It doesn't matter if this was a full on everything on the line battle or a simple brick war. If Onslaught was written to have beaten Cain into a whimpering state, i just can't see how Odin who is more powerful wouldn't be capable of doing worse to him.
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
DeFalco -like anyone who's done research should- emphasized that Juggernaut's force field was the main reason for his invulnerability very clearly. I mean my god, he even mentions it when Thor gives him his best shot:
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/Thor/JuggernautvsThor2.jpgThere's no loop holes here, it's all in the comics.
DeFalco is also the same guy that labeled Juggernaut a "mutant" in the narrative and in a characters speech. The guy just didn't understand or know much on Juggernaut's character. Except the whole unstoppable thing.
That shield thing in Thor #429 is PIS. In the Thunderbolts, Thor fought a WEAKENED Juggernaut, with no shield. Cain took a charged hammer strike to the face knocked Thor back and kept fight Cage, w/o missing a beat. A few issues later, he fought KING Hyperion, who was trying to kill him. Cain let Hyperion hit him to lure him in for Ali's rope-a-dope tactic. Both instances drew blood, but he was not about to be KO'd. Both of those, Cain was weak and with out a shield.
If you truly think that instance with Thor was not PIS, I'd like to take into consideration Thor's words: "...encircling [the castle] within a cone which will for the nonce negate ALL mystical energy!" And when the spell was over, Juggs was no longer on the verge of being KO'd, he wasn't stubbling around like he was moments earlier while the enchantment was up.
Fast forward to Colossus*. According to Piotr's words, his skull was cracked and yet he wanted to keep on fighting. He wasn't stumbling about, or about to be KO'd. He was taking some damage in that fight, and his healing factor was keeping him in the ring.
* I could argue that Colossus hadn't received the full power of the Juggernaut and Cain had not lost all of the power yet. Cyttorak himself said that once someone touches the gem, they have the right to challenge for the Juggernaut mantle. But to actually become the Juggernaut, they have to fight the previous Juggernaut.
Colossus did touch the gem, and according to Cyttoraks words in New Excalibur #15, he wasn't the Juggernaut yet, he had to challenge the previous Juggernaut (Cain Marko).
