Juggernaut vs Odin

Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin
DeFalco is also the same guy that labeled Juggernaut a "mutant" in the narrative and in a characters speech. The guy just didn't understand or know much on Juggernaut's character. Except the whole unstoppable thing.

It's happened before and after. He understood Cain's power level and how he operated well enough.

Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin
That shield thing in Thor #429 is PIS. In the Thunderbolts, Thor fought a WEAKENED Juggernaut, with no shield.

It's not PIS. Cain has been hurt plenty of times without his force field and it's been referenced as the source of his invulnerability even in the earliest days. DeFalco had an excellent interpretation of Juggernaut, arguably the best.

Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin
Cain took a charged hammer strike to the face knocked Thor back and kept fight Cage, w/o missing a beat. A few issues later, he fought KING Hyperion, who was trying to kill him. Cain let Hyperion hit him to lure him in for Ali's rope-a-dope tactic. Both instances drew blood, but he was not about to be KO'd. Both of those, Cain was weak and with out a shield.

Your logic needs some work. Good damage soak showings under Parker doesn't invalidate their earlier fights or how DeFalco interpreted Cain. Juggernaut got the shit beaten out of him on both occasions, he just should some great guts. It's not indication that he can't be knocked out, especially since Parker has had Cain knocked out before. At least I'm pretty sure he has.

Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin
If you truly think that instance with Thor was not PIS, I'd like to take into consideration Thor's words: "...encircling [the castle] within a cone which will for the nonce negate [B]ALL mystical energy!"[/B]

It's not. And anyone who's read up on the character can tell you that.

Obviously he didn't cancel out all of the magic, just the force field bit. I'm not really sure how that changes anything.

Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin
Fast forward to Colossus*. According to Piotr's words, his skull was cracked and yet he wanted to keep on fighting. He wasn't stumbling about, or about to be KO'd. He was taking some damage in that fight, and his healing factor was keeping him in the ring.

* I could argue that Colossus hadn't received the full power of the Juggernaut and Cain had not lost all of the power yet. Cyttorak himself said that once someone touches the gem, they have the right to challenge for the Juggernaut mantle. But to actually become the Juggernaut, they have to fight the previous Juggernaut.

Colossus did touch the gem, and according to Cyttoraks words in New Excalibur #15, he wasn't the Juggernaut yet, he had to challenge the previous Juggernaut (Cain Marko).

You could try but you'd fail. Not only was the comic very clear that Colossus got the full power of Juggernaut, the writer even specified later on that he had.

Gillen did choose to emphasize the healing factor more than most but I'm still not sure how you think that proves your point. Characters who have healing factors as a dominant trait (Hulk, Lobo, Wolverine etc.) have all been knocked out or been on the verge plenty of times. Immune to unconsciousness isn't a side effect of a healing factor in comics.

I understand that you didn't like the scene, but I honestly could not care less. Cain has been knocked out in comics before and I have very little doubt that Colossus will soon be eating dirt as well. Shit happens, no character is infallible.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
I'd question whether he knows what a hand to hand fight entails.

You are a special kind of idiot. Juggernaut went out of his way to present his force field:
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/Thor/WeakThorvsJuggernaut7.jpg

DeFalco -like anyone who's done research should- emphasized that Juggernaut's force field was the main reason for his invulnerability very clearly. I mean my god, he even mentions it when Thor gives him his best shot:
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/Thor/JuggernautvsThor2.jpg

There's no loop holes here, it's all in the comics.

I'm still waiting on those high end durability feats. Force field or no force field, you're going to have present some or concede to being a liar. I refuse to believe anyone could talk so much shit without actually doing any research.

I apologize for I was going by memory. I forget that Juggs talked about a forcefield when Thor struck with a slam. trust me, it wasn't intentional (since I know you are well versed in thor).
with that said, the durability feat was just that (him no selling Thor's slam attack).

I'm a reasonable person and try to be objective. With Jugg's forcefield I don't see Odin overpowering it with mere punches. This is because he never shown that type of physical power before. How do you go from barely feeling a blow to being damaged by a blow if that second blow isn't at least magnitude or so greater?

I can see Odin matching Thor's mightiest slams with his fists (because he may be stronger) but I can't see him striking with magnitudes greater force since it hasn't been shown. But know this does not imply that Odin isn't stronger since Odin can possibly hit harder with his fists than Thor can with his FISTS. Just not so much than Thor with Mjolnir slamming.

Also, I disagree with the logic that the feats of the Odin force is commutative. In other words, character A's feats cannot be given to character B in all cases. For example, a character can start stronger than another before receiving the power of the Odin force. This force could possibly amplify their strength higher than the other character. So Thor is stronger than Odin before Odin acquired the Odin force from his 2 brothers. That means Thor with the Odin force should be stronger than Odin with the Odinforce. So we can't use feats with others with the Odin force and apply it to Odin. We must only use Odin's feats for himself.

Lastly, we don't go by handbook stats if they contradict on panel evidence. But although Odin is class 100 for sure (handbooks have him at less) but don't it seem weird that they place him under Thor in strength for so many years? The problem isn't the number but the fact they believe he is physically weaker than Thor.

IMO, Odin is stronger than Thor. But not by a whole lot. I would say he's maybe somewhere between 2-10x stronger. I can't give Odin more than that since he's never shown anything beyond that level of strength. Again, I'm trying to very reasonable right not in order for the debate to be more smooth. Is that ok?

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
You knew about the force field even back then? Well props, few did.

Because the force field negates any physical contact. It's like placing someone in hand to hand fight but allowing them to retain the ability to turn intangible. But I digress, it's your thread after all.

Okay, define physical attacks. Do energy blasts count?

Let me put it another way, NO MAGIC CANCELLATION and NO MIND ****ING.

Odin is free to beat up on Juggernaut any way and how, so long as it's not cancelling out Juggernaut's powers or trying to mind manipulate him.

Originally posted by h1a8
I apologize for I was going by memory. I forget that Juggs talked about a forcefield when Thor struck with a slam. trust me, it wasn't intentional (since I know you are well versed in thor).
with that said, the durability feat was just that (him no selling Thor's slam attack).

It wasn’t intentional? Alright, next time, double check however.

Originally posted by h1a8
I'm a reasonable person and try to be objective. With Jugg's forcefield I don't see Odin overpowering it with mere punches. This is because he never shown that type of physical power before. How do you go from barely feeling a blow to being damaged by a blow if that second blow isn't at least magnitude or so greater?

I can see Odin matching Thor's mightiest slams with his fists (because he may be stronger) but I can't see him striking with magnitudes greater force since it hasn't been shown. But know this does not imply that Odin isn't stronger since Odin can possibly hit harder with his fists than Thor can with his [B]FISTS. Just not so much than Thor with Mjolnir slamming. [/B]

I have zero doubt that Odin has the power to easily break through Juggernaut's force field and as such I have no doubt he could accomplish it with his fists. With entities such as Odin, Galactus etc. power is power, no matter in which manner it is directed whether it's energy blasts, physical based attacks, or warping of space/time. This has been made abundantly clear I think:

Personally, I don't care if you agree with me or not, Odin can do anything he wants as long as it isn't mind raping or the negating of Juggernaut's enchantment according to the OP. He winks him out of existence.

Originally posted by h1a8
Also, I disagree with the logic that the feats of the Odin force is commutative. In other words, character A's feats cannot be given to character B in all cases. For example, a character can start stronger than another before receiving the power of the Odin force. This force could possibly amplify their strength higher than the other character. So Thor is stronger than Odin before Odin acquired the Odin force from his 2 brothers. That means Thor with the Odin force should be stronger than Odin with the Odinforce. So we can't use feats with others with the Odin force and apply it to Odin. We must only use Odin's feats for himself.

I’m not really sure what this has to do with my post but I’d like to clarify some things. The energy of the Odin Force is so much greater than the strength of Thor that whatever base strength advantage he starts out with is completely irrelevant. As a matter of fact, any feat that Thor has accomplished with the Odin Force, Odin would accomplish it even easier.

Also, I’m not sure that Odin before the creation of the Odin Force (Assuming the creation story of the brothers still stands) was any weaker than Thor. At least, in terms of power.

Originally posted by h1a8
Lastly, we don't go by handbook stats if they contradict on panel evidence. But although Odin is class 100 for sure (handbooks have him at less) but don't it seem weird that they place him under Thor in strength for so many years? The problem isn't the number but the fact they believe he is physically weaker than Thor.

It’s not weird, it’s just more evidence of what we already know, handbooks are prone to making up and not giving a shit when it comes to power stats. The only effort they ever put into as far as I can tell is the actual history of the characters and even that was back in the day. Using a source that's gone out of it's way to say Odin can't teleport, bring back the dead amongst other shit that his done just makes you lose credibility.

Originally posted by h1a8
IMO, Odin is stronger than Thor. But not by a whole lot. I would say he's maybe somewhere between 2-10x stronger. I can't give Odin more than that since he's never shown anything beyond that level of strength. Again, I'm trying to very reasonable right not in order for the debate to be more smooth. Is that ok?

Odin is both more powerful and stronger than Thor by a vast amount. His superior to Thor in each and any category he chooses. The Odin Force is a large pool of energy and long as he doesn't deplete it or come across a superior power, he can do basically anything he wants. It's a less powerful Cosmic Cube that lets him apply power in whatever way he wants. He could start zooming around like the Flash if he felt like it by all accounts.

For the record, Heimdall replicated the exact same Juggernaut feat that you’re all wet about:

Except he had only a small portion of the Odin Force and didn't even bother using a force field.

Apologies for the late reply. I only remembered this thread when I came across it in a search.

i clicked on this just to confirm if rage was pointlessly arguing with h1

i was right

His idiocy is my drug.

Check into rehab.

Why hasn't anyone actually posted a scan of Juggernaut being hurt physically? With all the talk of doing that, I figured there would be more, well, doing that.

Also, lol, WWH. Because bending when hit by a blow to the stomach proves he was actually physically injured, right? Rather than, you know, having a vaguely human-esque biology which means that, hit at that angle, without actively resisting it, he will bend?

Granted, I hold no delusions to being very knowledgable in comics, but I haven't seen anything from the pro-Odin side that actually points to Juggernaut not being virtually invulnerable to physical harm.

Also, correct me if I am wrong, but isn't Juggernaut's force field effectively like Superman's? In that it is basically passive and part of his general physical powerset at all times, though he can extend it?

Originally posted by NemeBro
Why hasn't anyone actually posted a scan of Juggernaut being hurt physically? With all the talk of doing that, I figured there would be more, well, doing that.

Also, lol, WWH. Because bending when hit by a blow to the stomach proves he was actually physically injured, right? Rather than, you know, having a vaguely human-esque biology which means that, hit at that angle, without actively resisting it, he will bend?

Granted, I hold no delusions to being very knowledgable in comics, but I haven't seen anything from the pro-Odin side that actually points to Juggernaut not being virtually invulnerable to physical harm.

Also, correct me if I am wrong, but isn't Juggernaut's force field effectively like Superman's? In that it is basically passive and part of his general physical powerset at all times, though he can extend it?

This are all the instances I know of, where Cain has been affected, hurt etc.

- Beaten down by Thor.
- Staggered by an impact with a wind tunnel fan.
- Hurt when Nightcrawler threw a torch in his face: http://i47.tinypic.com/2qu3l8x.jpg
- Beaten down by War Hulk.
- Hurt by the Weapon's Master from Eighth Day: http://img406.imageshack.us/img406/3061/jug8thdayp30.jpg
- Owned by Onslaught.
- Stunned momentarily by Dazzler: http://img818.imageshack.us/img818/6898/xmen21714b.jpg
- Stopped by Nimrod's high frequency sonics: http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/6/67610/1397352-uncanny_x_men_194___17_super.jpg
- Beaten black and blue by Captain Universe.
- He was hurt by Storm and Spider-Woman's electrical attack:http://i45.tinypic.com/mjvaci.jpg
- Brought to his knees by a punch from Professor Hulk.
- Scratched by Feral and had his eye plucked out by Shatterstar: http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/5/54474/1063806-spider_man_016_18_super.jpg
- Aged and died in Oblivion: http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/2757/1918857xmenlegacy219zon.jpg
- Hurt by a chop and blast from Nightmare: http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/5893/nightmarejuggernaut2.jpg
- Affected by a blow from Green Scar.

I'm probably forgetting something and I'm not including brain/mental, power draining related incidents (Although I think Psychole hurting him by affecting his nervous system should probably count) as they aren't allowed in this thread according to OP (Everything else is a go).

These instances are ultimately irrelevant though as Juggernaut is supposed to be using his force field according to the OP.

It's true that Juggernaut's force field can be skin tight and is visually undetectable but I'm not going to assume it's in play in a comic unless mentioned personally. I'm not a huge Juggernaut fan but I don't want it record's tarnished. It's basically his deal breaker and DeFalco's take was pretty excellent.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
This are all the instances I know of, where Cain has been affected, hurt etc.

- Beaten down by Thor.
- Staggered by an impact with a wind tunnel fan.
- Hurt when Nightcrawler threw a torch in his face: http://i47.tinypic.com/2qu3l8x.jpg
- Beaten down by War Hulk.
- Hurt by the Weapon's Master from Eighth Day: http://img406.imageshack.us/img406/3061/jug8thdayp30.jpg
- Owned by Onslaught.
- Stunned momentarily by Dazzler: http://img818.imageshack.us/img818/6898/xmen21714b.jpg
- Stopped by Nimrod's high frequency sonics: http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/6/67610/1397352-uncanny_x_men_194___17_super.jpg
- Beaten black and blue by Captain Universe.
- He was hurt by Storm and Spider-Woman's electrical attack:http://i45.tinypic.com/mjvaci.jpg
- Brought to his knees by a punch from Professor Hulk.
- Scratched by Feral and had his eye plucked out by Shatterstar: http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/5/54474/1063806-spider_man_016_18_super.jpg
- Aged and died in Oblivion: http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/2757/1918857xmenlegacy219zon.jpg
- Hurt by a chop and blast from Nightmare: http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/5893/nightmarejuggernaut2.jpg
- Affected by a blow from Green Scar.

I'm probably forgetting something and I'm not including brain/mental, power draining related incidents (Although I think Psychole hurting him by affecting his nervous system should probably count) as they aren't allowed in this thread according to OP (Everything else is a go).

These instances are ultimately irrelevant though as Juggernaut is supposed to be using his force field according to the OP.

It's true that Juggernaut's force field can be skin tight and is visually undetectable but I'm not going to assume it's in play in a comic unless mentioned personally. I'm not a huge Juggernaut fan but I don't want it record's tarnished. It's basically his deal breaker and DeFalco's take was pretty excellent.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
This are all the instances I know of, where Cain has been affected, hurt etc.

- Beaten down by Thor.
- Staggered by an impact with a wind tunnel fan.
- Hurt when Nightcrawler threw a torch in his face: http://i47.tinypic.com/2qu3l8x.jpg
- Beaten down by War Hulk.
- Hurt by the Weapon's Master from Eighth Day: http://img406.imageshack.us/img406/3061/jug8thdayp30.jpg
- Owned by Onslaught.
- Stunned momentarily by Dazzler: http://img818.imageshack.us/img818/6898/xmen21714b.jpg
- Stopped by Nimrod's high frequency sonics: http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/6/67610/1397352-uncanny_x_men_194___17_super.jpg
- Beaten black and blue by Captain Universe.
- He was hurt by Storm and Spider-Woman's electrical attack:http://i45.tinypic.com/mjvaci.jpg
- Brought to his knees by a punch from Professor Hulk.
- Scratched by Feral and had his eye plucked out by Shatterstar: http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/5/54474/1063806-spider_man_016_18_super.jpg
- Aged and died in Oblivion: http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/2757/1918857xmenlegacy219zon.jpg
- Hurt by a chop and blast from Nightmare: http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/5893/nightmarejuggernaut2.jpg
- Affected by a blow from Green Scar.

I'm probably forgetting something and I'm not including brain/mental, power draining related incidents (Although I think Psychole hurting him by affecting his nervous system should probably count) as they aren't allowed in this thread according to OP (Everything else is a go).

These instances are ultimately irrelevant though as Juggernaut is supposed to be using his force field according to the OP.

It's true that Juggernaut's force field can be skin tight and is visually undetectable but I'm not going to assume it's in play in a comic unless mentioned personally. I'm not a huge Juggernaut fan but I don't want it record's tarnished. It's basically his deal breaker and DeFalco's take was pretty excellent.

Edit: Or there are circumstances to the feats you are using.

Thank you for actually providing scans showing the Juggernaut being injured (Though I also don't really know context to them, honestly), I was just annoyed by people saying they were going to, without doing it.

Originally posted by quanchi112
I'm glad you posted scans because his lack of knowledge irritated me and I for one wouldn't have gone to the trouble to educate him.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Thank you for actually providing scans showing the Juggernaut being injured (Though I also don't really know context to them, honestly), I was just annoyed by people saying they were going to, without doing it.

You still butthurt from all the times I emasculated you in movie and game versus Quan?

Originally posted by quanchi112
I was annoyed by having to educate in the video game versus forum and then when you showed up here I knew it's only going to get worse.

You are still butthurt over the multiple times you were emasculated in game versus.

What is it like being the joke of multiple boards Quanchi?

Originally posted by NemeBro
So yeah.

You are still butthurt over the multiple times you were emasculated in game versus.

What is it like being the joke of multiple boards Quanchi?

Originally posted by quanchi112
You always take this so personally. Look you clearly don't know enough about the Juggernaut to debate yet came in here demanding proof. That's weak. Stay out of debates you are ignorant in. Thanks.

Why would I debate for Juggernaut? I don't think he wins.

Also, Quan, I am so, so sorry that I took your manhood and made you look like a fool on multiple occasions in front of many people on the internet. If I knew about how pissy and butthurt it would make you towards me whenever I showed up in a thread, I would have never done it. 🙁

Originally posted by NemeBro
I was pointing out that despite claims that Juggernaut is not physically indestructible and claims that they could prove it, there was very little proving it. When the other side disagrees with you, if you have evidence, you present it.

Why would I debate for Juggernaut? I don't think he wins.

Also, Quan, I am so, so sorry that I took your manhood and made you look like a fool on multiple occasions in front of many people on the internet. If I knew about how pissy and butthurt it would make you towards me whenever I showed up in a thread, I would have never done it. 🙁

You never have once. You have turned tail and ran from me at every turn. I'm that unbreakable object the waves crash in on. They break up apart as I remain firm in my resolve.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus

I have zero doubt that Odin has the power to easily break through Juggernaut's force field and as such I have no doubt he could accomplish it with his fists. With entities such as Odin, Galactus etc. power is power, no matter in which manner it is directed whether it's energy blasts, physical based attacks, or warping of space/time. This has been made abundantly clear I think:

Personally, I don't care if you agree with me or not, Odin can do anything he wants as long as it isn't mind raping or the negating of Juggernaut's enchantment according to the OP. He winks him out of existence.

You are faultily assuming that one can ALWAYS efficiently channel their power into pure physical strength and durability. This is not always the case. For example, assuming Sentry has the power of a million exploding suns but has only been shown to channel only a fraction of a single sun's energy towards his physical strength then should we assume that he can still channel those million exploding suns into raw physical strength? Odin MUST SHOW IT and not speculated to be able to do so.

I’m not really sure what this has to do with my post but I’d like to clarify some things. The energy of the Odin Force is so much greater than the strength of Thor that whatever base strength advantage he starts out with is completely irrelevant. As a matter of fact, any feat that Thor has accomplished with the Odin Force, Odin would accomplish it even easier.

Also, I’m not sure that Odin before the creation of the Odin Force (Assuming the creation story of the brothers still stands) was any weaker than Thor. At least, in terms of power.

Odin is both more powerful and stronger than Thor by a vast amount. His superior to Thor in each and any category he chooses. The Odin Force is a large pool of energy and long as he doesn't deplete it or come across a superior power, he can do basically anything he wants. It's a less powerful Cosmic Cube that lets him apply power in whatever way he wants. He could start zooming around like the Flash if he felt like it by all accounts.

Wrong. You can't give a character a level of doing something when they haven't shown it. They must show that they can grant themselves flash speed or physical strength greater than whatever. This is bordering on trolling when you suggest such things without proof. I can get into all the theoretically things Magneto can do but none of it would hold up for the simple fact that he hasn't shown such things or shown them to the level I'm making it out to be. If Odin was so high and mighty physical wise then he would have no sold Thor's hammer strike. And Odin is not stronger than Thor by a vast amount for the simple fact that he hasn't shown that type of strength.

For the record, Heimdall replicated the exact same Juggernaut feat that you’re all wet about:

Except he had only a small portion of the Odin Force and didn't even bother using a force field.

Apologies for the late reply. I only remembered this thread when I came across it in a search.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Most people are familiar with the characters at least to the point to have the debate. If someone says prove Superman can fly then debate is pretty much pointless since you have to baby step someone through their entire history.

You never have once. You have turned tail and ran from me at every turn. I'm that unbreakable object the waves crash in on. They break up apart as I remain firm in my resolve.

Tell yourself whatever you have to Quan. Denial is the first step on the path to accepting that you are a pariah.

Also, why are you stealing lines from Apocalypse (Yes I am aware that that is not the exact line, but it is awfully close).

Originally posted by NemeBro
Only Juggernaut being physically vulnerable to non-magical means is not actually common knowledge. In fact, that was sort of what Rage was annoyed at, that there is apparently a myth of him being physically invulnerable. And no, you prove it anyway, to give your position credit.

Tell yourself whatever you have to Quan. Denial is the first step on the path to accepting that you are a pariah.

Also, why are you stealing lines from Apocalypse (Yes I am aware that that is not the exact line, but it is awfully close).

Whatever you tell yourself to sleep at night. Live in a world of delusions.