Kain(LOK) vs. Pyron(DS)

Originally posted by Nozdormu
1. Debating one video game character versus another is 100% speculations. Especially in a fight such as this one.

2. Hills? What the hell? Pyron dwarves planets. Yeah, sure, he'll be safe on the hill 🙄 What'll he do next? Dig a bunker?

2. I got the idea from one of BT's options in his Kain versus Jedah and Demitri thread, which was really funny (to me).

-Edit- Nevermind, I remember the OVA (or whatever it was) of Pyron. Not that it isn't overrated. Minisuns! durlaugh

Originally posted by Burning thought
They dont describe the Materia as part of the universe though. Kain says so himself that he gains it, the optional part is irrelvent.

Yes its harder to rip it from the Nosgoth underworld than a body, since you would be basically defying the Elder God rather than the hosts menial resistance but no, I cannot "show" him doing it, theres not even a video of the gameplay that I can find atm but that is irrelvent, what a being can do, and what they have shown to be able to do, are two very diffrent things and Kain has been stated to do this power, rather than shown in a cutscene, it would not have made sense anyway to use it. [/B]

Alright you don't need to show me him doing it, just tell me when in the LOK story he has ripped out someones soul.

Originally posted by Terryc250
What do you mean by that? The elder who is part of the in-world who describes in-world things says she has it, and is willing to trade it for another in-world thing.

Like i said before, we don't know how long it took for Kain to put a soul in a body, etc.

Alright you don't need to show me him doing it, just tell me when in the LOK story he has ripped out someones soul.

They dont give the object solidity in the universe, it is simply mentioned alongside other things, saying you have an object doesnt mean as much as making that object part of the actual universe, for example Kain mentions the spell worthy of the Necromancer himself, that there is making it part of the unvierse, if all he said was "i gained the spirit death spell!" then it would not be as factual.

But we know he has soul powers.

He has not in the story ripped a soul from a person.

Originally posted by 4RX
A. Where did you get this info

B. Where did you get this info

C. Where did this come from and the reasoning there is none other than speculation, also.

This is three years before the start of the series, which is around the time Pyron came to Earth. He was in the "furthest reaches of the universe." So in three years, from the limits of the universe, Pyron got to Earth. That is superluminal speed on an incredibly high level.

2. Pyron can eat Makai, did it in an ending in fact. The one where he proclaims he will then head to Andromeda in search of more worlds.

3. The canon guide, he talked to all of Makai and lured them out so he could battle them.

Originally posted by Burning thought
[B]They dont give the object solidity in the universe, it is simply mentioned alongside other things, saying you have an object doesnt mean as much as making that object part of the actual universe, for example Kain mentions the spell worthy of the Necromancer himself, that there is making it part of the unvierse, if all he said was "i gained the spirit death spell!" then it would not be as factual.

But we know he has soul powers.

He has not in the story ripped a soul from a person.

Just because he did *a does not mean he'll beable to do *b

Originally posted by Terryc250
Alright you don't need to show me him doing it, just tell me when in the LOK story he has ripped out someones soul.

Originally posted by Burning thought
A. what are you talking about, such BS? beyond planetary, explain your terms your coninig out of your @ss just to help yourself. i may as well say Pyron cannot even hit Nosgoth or Kain until he actually destroys a guy that is wrinkly and green and a planet with an Elder God on it.

B: At that range whats Pyron going to do to Nosgoth? or are you going to assume he can do this? also who are you to assume where Pyron starts the battle?

And this has been debated, nothing points to the spell not being canon, its just like most DMC spells and simliar GOW powers, only the hope and continual need for the spell to be uncanon since Kain could annhilate your beloved characters with it. And none of that tells anyone how Pyron can resist any soul powers, unless hes been hit by soul powers (show me) then hes not any resistance, simple. Otherwise its: [b]based on nothing more than what you want to believe.

C: Kain can teleport, whats stopping him from teleporting into space? a magical barrier with the words "cannot teleport thru thiz!" covering the atmosphere. Not that Kain even has to.

D: Thats assuming he can attack at his full size, since weve never seen him do it, almost every time we see him at his full size he does very little actions or is in his fetal position for travel. Hell for all we know he cannot even move at that size unless we, what did you say: based on nothing more than what they want to believe.

E: Kain wouldnt use telepathy or mind control

F: how? just because all you see of Earth from an end of game uncanon ending is it orbiting his finger doesnt show you how he does it (could taken him hours to accomplish).

Kain could take Pyrons soul, freeze him in time with incapaciation, slow him then do any of the attacks before mentioned and this is before Scion Kain who could wipe the floor with as many pyrons as he sees fit. [/B]

2. Blast it. He can shoot fireballs and shit. Not to mention his arm is about as big as 30 Nosgoth's in terms of length. And Pyron can teleport. It would be a simple matter for him, not to mention the FTL thought speed and movement speed which he can use to propel himself away.

Other than it being an optional spell that is never mentioned in the game? See, thing about GOW spells and weapons is that you HAVE to get them. And get them in the required storyline and even a cutscene of him aquiring them. Notice how you fought against Cloud getting random materia #4 since they are optional, yet now there is an optional spell for Kain, yet you defend it. Double standard. Until this optional spell is confirmed to be canon, it isn't.

3. Because Kain has never teleported that far obviously. I can assume Pyron can teleport to the other side of the universe and hit him with a blast from there, but yeah, he has never done it, so I do not.

4. We have seen Pyron eat planets at full size, fly at full size, create matter at full size, and move at full size. Why would he not be able to punch or fire a blast at full size? Now you are simply grasping at straws. And hell, all Pyron would have to do to win is fly FTL through Nosgoth, which would destroy the planet and kill Kain, and even if it did not kill him, it would send him hurtling at FTL speeds through space, resulting in a BFR.

5. Good thing too. Wouldn't work.

6. We saw quite clearly it took moments to accomplish, the video also makes this clear, but since it is not on Youtube, no I cannot show you. But even in the ending with only pics we see him with Earth under him, then we see people in Earth commenting on drastic changes in weather patterns, gravity, all that shit. Then we see it orbiting Pyron's finger. Obvious short time-lapse, and even if it took hours to do, it isn't like Kain could do anything to Pyron at that range anyway. Stop grasping at straws.

Can't take Pyron's soul since in canon it has never happened and there is no indication of it happening, can't freeze or slow him since Kain's time powers are not on an above planetary scale, and how will he do this before the faster(in both movement and thought) Pyron just leaves orbit, blows up the planet or eats it? And then, if Kain still lives, just hits Kain with a concussive blast to send him flying through space out of the solar system? Hell, I say Pyron just converts the planet and Kain with it into energy and absorbs it. Kain has shown no resistance at all to it.

Scion Kain? Oh you mean Theory Kain, the one you made up based on your own opinion?

Okay.

I choose full potential Pyron, who embodies the universe, as confirmed by and out-of-universe narration.

Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
1. It is pretty simple. Pyron is much bigger than a planet yes? Then logically, to actually freeze him in time, freeze the time/space he inhabits, Kain would need time powers on a level that is far beyond that of planet-sized, but as of now he has only done so to a room. Saying he can freeze Pyron is more than equivelant to saying he can freeze a planet, can Kain freeze a planet?

2. Blast it. He can shoot fireballs and shit. Not to mention his arm is about as big as 30 Nosgoth's in terms of length. And Pyron can teleport. It would be a simple matter for him, not to mention the FTL thought speed and movement speed which he can use to propel himself away.

Other than it being an optional spell that is never mentioned in the game? See, thing about GOW spells and weapons is that you HAVE to get them. And get them in the required storyline and even a cutscene of him aquiring them. Notice how you fought against Cloud getting random materia #4 since they are optional, yet now there is an optional spell for Kain, yet you defend it. Double standard. Until this optional spell is confirmed to be canon, it isn't.

3. Because Kain has never teleported that far obviously. I can assume Pyron can teleport to the other side of the universe and hit him with a blast from there, but yeah, he has never done it, so I do not.

4. We have seen Pyron eat planets at full size, fly at full size, create matter at full size, and move at full size. Why would he not be able to punch or fire a blast at full size? Now you are simply grasping at straws. And hell, all Pyron would have to do to win is fly FTL through Nosgoth, which would destroy the planet and kill Kain, and even if it did not kill him, it would send him hurtling at FTL speeds through space, resulting in a BFR.

5. Good thing too. Wouldn't work.

6. We saw quite clearly it took moments to accomplish, the video also makes this clear, but since it is not on Youtube, no I cannot show you. But even in the ending with only pics we see him with Earth under him, then we see people in Earth commenting on drastic changes in weather patterns, gravity, all that shit. Then we see it orbiting Pyron's finger. Obvious short time-lapse, and even if it took hours to do, it isn't like Kain could do anything to Pyron at that range anyway. Stop grasping at straws.

Can't take Pyron's soul since in canon it has never happened and there is no indication of it happening, can't freeze or slow him since Kain's time powers are not on an above planetary scale, and how will he do this before the faster(in both movement and thought) Pyron just leaves orbit, blows up the planet or eats it? And then, if Kain still lives, just hits Kain with a concussive blast to send him flying through space out of the solar system? Hell, I say Pyron just converts the planet and Kain with it into energy and absorbs it. Kain has shown no resistance at all to it.

Scion Kain? Oh you mean Theory Kain, the one you made up based on your own opinion?

Okay.

I choose full potential Pyron, who embodies the universe, as confirmed by and out-of-universe narration.

1. Its nothing like that at all, Kain seems to slow/freeze the essence, its nothing to do with size, he freezes raziel exactley the same as he does the large demons and the peticulour powers he uses to do so, from Incapaciation to the AOE slow time are smaller than the being their targeting, it wouldnt even make sense, if Kain shot Pyron, you couldnt have a portion of Pyron being frozen in time and the rest not. With Pyron being energy if he tried to swing his hand into Kain, each segment would likely explode and turn to disapated energy if each section of his large hand fell into the field of time.

2. Has he done this in this large form? has he done it from this range? and he can only go FTL speed in his fetal position, he cannot do anything while in this position.

it is confirmed by Kain himself, thats what makes it canon, the fact something is optional is irrelvent, since the option is only a player option which is irrelvent to the LOK storyline. 🙄 players dont make the canon.

3. What are you talking about? far? Kain can teleport more than once you know....you make it sound like Kain has to teleport to space in one teleport

4. He can only eat planets at full size, he flies in a fetal position at full size, and he doesnt create matter, he turns his own energy into the robot things if thats what you mean though, thats transfering his own energy. lol no, ime grasping at the truth, he has never done those things and most of the things he does at full size are highly limited, i.e fetal position to go at high speed.

6. Nothing shows it as being clear, a few scans make it impossible to determine time and what range? It would be around Pyrons finger but the chances are if its Pyron vs Nosgoh the Planar Azimoth could just BFR him.

There is 🙂 and your time scale nonsense is rubbish, Pyrons a single entity, his size would be irrelvent since he is living you couldnt have a piece of you frozen in time, so he would have to be completly frozen or Kain just freezes him bit by bit...time is his oyster after all, whats Pyron going to do. He has to get to momentum before he can get to any speed, then he has to be in a fetal position in which he cannot do much at all. Kains destiny mumbo jumbo has not been taken away in this battle so Pyron cannot conquer Kain by devouring him. Not that would make much use, youll be destroying Kains physical form making him a soul, the soul resistanceless Pyron would be helpess to a possestion.

No i mean the Kain all evidence in the games supports and the one I debated you into the ground with on MSN only for you to concede but come back 20 minutes later to say ime wrong again.

Well first this pyron never existed, since Pyrons never been that, and furthermore ive not seen this apprent confirmation.

Originally posted by Terryc250
Not everything has to be like LOK. There is basically absolutely no item, accessory, materia, weapon, etc, that goes and describes it like that in FF7, does that mean everything in FF7 in non-canon and the entire game is non-canon? No. The bottom line is the dialogue is optional and isn't incorporated into the actual story plot, so there isn't any proof that the optional things were actually obtained by the character himself.

There's a big difference between Kain requiring an unknown amount of time to summon a soul from the underworld to use as his lieteneunt and Kain being able to rip a soul (which he's never done) from a being like Pyron.

Just because he did *a does not mean he'll beable to do *b

It would if there were no cutscenes, books etc etc among other things to make those items in FF7 canon. Stop bringing the "optional" part into it, your bringing in a part that is only acted upon by the player. which is also irrelvent to the storyline/plot, only thing is, Kain has speech for it, whether the player chooses to see it or not is irrelvent.

Why a being like Pyron? again you keep saying "like Pyron" as if Pyron has some sort of impressive resistance which he does not, he has zero btw. And yes theres a diffrence but it points to Kain having soul powers. You keep going on and on about him not having shown Soul powers and other such abilities in the later games yet he has shown soul powers there.

Originally posted by Burning thought
It would if there were no cutscenes, books etc etc among other things to make those items in FF7 canon. Stop bringing the "optional" part into it, your bringing in a part that is only acted upon by the player. which is also irrelvent to the storyline/plot, only thing is, Kain has speech for it, whether the player chooses to see it or not is irrelvent.

Why a being like Pyron? again you keep saying "like Pyron" as if Pyron has some sort of impressive resistance which he does not, he has zero btw. And yes theres a diffrence but it points to Kain having soul powers. You keep going on and on about him not having shown Soul powers and other such abilities in the later games yet he has shown soul powers there. [/B]

Originally posted by Terryc250
The cutscenes don't show alot of the weapons, etc. We know what items/materia/accessory Cloud gets by if the plot forces the character to get the item/materia/etc to carry on with the story, that means the object is canon, all the other optional things are just bonus stuff for the player, think about it, if Cloud actually gained Master Materia in the plot, why wouldn't Kadaj have used it in AC? If Kain actually gained that optional spell, why hasn't he ever ripped out a single soul in the entire series?

Its feats vs feats, Kain hasn't done any soul ripping to prove he could rip a soul out of a being the size of his planet.

If the ONLY evidence for an item being canon in FF is the fact the player "has" to get them just because their in the way or such does not make them 100% canon, only more likely than just a random occurance. Because he doesnt need to rip out a soul, all the powers he gains in BO2 are given a seperate cutscene and are spoken in the story and you HAVE to get them but he doesnt immolate to ashes a single person in the storyline either, Kain does not use a lot of powers if any, if you knew how the game and its cutscenes worked you would understand that their merely information bonuses, their not randomly inserted cinematics of Kain fighting to create "wow" moments like in DMC.

Its not feats vs feats, powers a being is stated to have is equelly if not more impressive than feats as evidence, feats can be misleading, straight facts and statements cannot.

No, they're not just "in the way" the story requires the character to obtain it, or the story happens that way, like Cloud obtaining the Buster Sword from Zack, or requiring a fire materia to ignite something, which means the character actually gets that item/materia in the story. All the other optional bonus things are not 100% guaranteed canon, unless it was suggested the character does obtain it in the story.

But there is no "straight facts" all we know is the spell is only gameplay, and its only an optional bonus spell, its never actually been used, or is it even in the plot.

Originally posted by Terryc250
No, they're not just "in the way" the story requires the character to obtain it, or the story happens that way, like Cloud obtaining the Buster Sword from Zack, or requiring a fire materia to ignite something, which means the character actually gets that item/materia in the story. All the other optional bonus things are not 100% guaranteed canon, unless it was suggested the character does obtain it in the story.

But there is no "straight facts" all we know is the spell is only gameplay, and its only an optional bonus spell, its never actually been used, or is it even in the plot.

The buster sword is seen in cinematics as well as many other FF canon however, that makes it canon. If your saying its a story element and not "just in the way" then thats diffrent, the way you said "the plot forces the character" made me think of things being in the way, for example Kratos doesnt "have" to get Poseidons gift, if there was not a cutscene for it, that would not ncesserily be canon.

Kain makes it part of the universe as soon as he says he has it, whether the player chooses to see that text through the option is irrelvent, since both the player and the option (which is the players) are irrelvent gameplay, if you take them away, your left with Kain simply stating hes gained that spell.

The Buster Sword is just an example, other items that are forced onto the character for example, a key to a door, and you get the key by defeating a boss, that key item is canon to the character because the plot forces the character to get it to carry on with the story. Everything the plot forces the character to get to carry on with the story is canon, all the other bonus optional things are just a maybe.

Kains dialogue is optional, IF he gets the item that is what he would say, just like IF Cloud obtains the Earth Harp and gives it to the elder, thats what the elder would have said. But in the actual canon plot, Cloud never got the Earth Harp, and the Elder never actually said that.

Originally posted by 4RX
1. 😂 I said part of his post was speculation because Pyron has little to know showings at all (as in he did not prove Pyron can do what he said he can). Just a total of 5 or 6 still images of him doing...well nothing really.

2. I got the idea from one of BT's options in his Kain versus Jedah and Demitri thread, which was really funny (to me).

-Edit- Nevermind, I remember the OVA (or whatever it was) of Pyron. Not that it isn't overrated. Minisuns! durlaugh

Take a closer look at Burning Thought debating, is my advise.. He speculate FAR deeper and more than anyone else, and especially more than the Pyron debaters.. His points are loose, sometimes farfetched and sometimes hypocritic.. But to be fair, I'll also add that 9 cases out of 10, his points are valid.. He uses his head, which cannot be denied..

Originally posted by Terryc250
The Buster Sword is just an example, other items that are forced onto the character for example, a key to a door, and you get the key by defeating a boss, that key item is canon to the character because the plot forces the character to get it to carry on with the story. Everything the plot forces the character to get to carry on with the story is canon, all the other bonus optional things are just a maybe.

Kains dialogue is optional, IF he gets the item that is what he would say, just like IF Cloud obtains the Earth Harp and gives it to the elder, thats what the elder would have said. But in the actual canon plot, Cloud never got the Earth Harp, and the Elder never actually said that.

A key to a door is canon? now its obvious you are confused about what makes something canon, throughout fiction there are keys to things, but thats gameplay, not canon....just because the 7 foot tall double handed hammer wielding giant who can pummel dragons to dust requires the blue key to get through Wooden door A doesnt make the key canon. the meaning of that anology is that the wooden door in the gameplay is in the way, but there could have been 100 diffrent ways to get past the obstacle, i.e for the giant, smashing it through with one swing, but gameplay dictates that the player requires objects to pass. Things simply being in the way, for example doors, items, etc etc are not canon.

Optional to the player, this is all gameplay your talking about, player decisions. There is no "IF" because the "IF" is all player driven, which is cancled out by the fact players are not canon and are irrelvent. Yes but is the Earth Harp made canon to the story? regardless of whether you belive Kain gains that spell or not, his dialogue being optional or not indicates the spell itself is canon, does the Earth Harp have any canon speech making it part of the world?

Originally posted by Burning thought
1. Its nothing like that at all, Kain seems to slow/freeze the essence, its nothing to do with size, he freezes raziel exactley the same as he does the large demons and the peticulour powers he uses to do so, from Incapaciation to the AOE slow time are smaller than the being their targeting, it wouldnt even make sense, if Kain shot Pyron, you couldnt have a portion of Pyron being frozen in time and the rest not. With Pyron being energy if he tried to swing his hand into Kain, each segment would likely explode and turn to disapated energy if each section of his large hand fell into the field of time.

2. Has he done this in this large form? has he done it from this range? and he can only go FTL speed in his fetal position, he cannot do anything while in this position.

it is confirmed by Kain himself, thats what makes it canon, the fact something is optional is irrelvent, since the option is only a player option which is irrelvent to the LOK storyline. 🙄 players dont make the canon.

3. What are you talking about? far? Kain can teleport more than once you know....you make it sound like Kain has to teleport to space in one teleport

4. He can only eat planets at full size, he flies in a fetal position at full size, and he doesnt create matter, he turns his own energy into the robot things if thats what you mean though, thats transfering his own energy. lol no, ime grasping at the truth, he has never done those things and most of the things he does at full size are highly limited, i.e fetal position to go at high speed.

6. Nothing shows it as being clear, a few scans make it impossible to determine time and what range? It would be around Pyrons finger but the chances are if its Pyron vs Nosgoh the Planar Azimoth could just BFR him.

There is 🙂 and your time scale nonsense is rubbish, Pyrons a single entity, his size would be irrelvent since he is living you couldnt have a piece of you frozen in time, so he would have to be completly frozen or Kain just freezes him bit by bit...time is his oyster after all, whats Pyron going to do. He has to get to momentum before he can get to any speed, then he has to be in a fetal position in which he cannot do much at all. Kains destiny mumbo jumbo has not been taken away in this battle so Pyron cannot conquer Kain by devouring him. Not that would make much use, youll be destroying Kains physical form making him a soul, the soul resistanceless Pyron would be helpess to a possestion.

No i mean the Kain all evidence in the games supports and the one I debated you into the ground with on MSN only for you to concede but come back 20 minutes later to say ime wrong again.

Well first this pyron never existed, since Pyrons never been that, and furthermore ive not seen this apprent confirmation.

2. I notice how when debating for Pyron you never want to limit him for the sake of the debate, but when debating for Kain against him, all of the sudden his powers just magically disappear? Bullshit. If you payed any attention at all, he doesn't fly in a fetal position, as the scans I posted clearly show, he flies in the form of a fireball. And actually, he can teleport in a fetal position, he can shield himself in a fetal position, hell, he even has attacks in the fetal position. So no, you would be wrong. Oh and one thing he can do in that position is ram him, it was apparently a viable option against Sargeras, why not Kain? 🙂

You are right, players do not make the canon, so going by that since you can go through the story without even getting the spell, it is not canon. 🙂 And it is confirmed by Kain if the player so chooses to get it, it is not required to complete the canon story, it is not canon, deal with it. 🙂

3. Kain can indefinately teleport until he reaches far in outer space? Lol. Shit argument. What is the farthest Kain has teleported? I am guessing only like 10 feet at best. By then, Pyron can just, you know, blow up Kain's planet or eat it and Kain.

4. He turned it into a ring while smaller than Earth. And it takes little time for Pyron to reach full size. He flies as a fireball, not in a fetal position noob. And he does it at all sizes, including mortal. And proved he had to use his own energy, that is just speculation. 🙂 You are assuming he can't do those things simply cause he changed his size to discredit Pyron, why couldn't he do it at a larger size then BT? Why would he be more limited in his stronger form than his weaker form? Fail logic is fail.

6. Not really, no. The vid made it clear. And BFR him where? To another dimension? Pyron can eat Makai, he can travel dimensions.

7. I am not saying a piece would be frozen in time, I am saying Pyron would not be frozen at all. There needs no momentum, that is just what you want to believe. You can't, and never could, prove he needs momentum. Destiny? His destiny is granted by a planet, which Pyron can eat. Pyron will overrule Nosgoth's rules. No-Limits fallacy.

8. You never made me concede.

Originally posted by Burning thought
A key to a door is canon? now its obvious you are confused about what makes something canon, throughout fiction there are keys to things, but thats gameplay, not canon....just because the 7 foot tall double handed hammer wielding giant who can pummel dragons to dust requires the blue key to get through Wooden door A doesnt make the key canon. the meaning of that anology is that the wooden door in the gameplay is in the way, but there could have been 100 diffrent ways to get past the obstacle, i.e for the giant, smashing it through with one swing, but gameplay dictates that the player requires objects to pass. Things simply being in the way, for example doors, items, etc etc are not canon.

No developer is stupid enough to make a 7 foot sledgehammer giant need a key to get through a wooden door, thats just something you made up.

Optional to the player, this is all gameplay your talking about, player decisions. There is no "IF" because the "IF" is all player driven, which is cancled out by the fact players are not canon and are irrelvent. Yes but is the Earth Harp made canon to the story? regardless of whether you belive Kain gains that spell or not, his dialogue being optional or not indicates the spell itself is canon, does the Earth Harp have any canon speech making it part of the world? [/B]

For example: In FF7 when you are on a train that is about to crash into barrets hometown, you have an option to stop the train, or to not stop the train, if you don't stop it the train will crash into his hometown, the story will still continue but the dialogue is different and the story is slightly different

Or, you can figure out a way to stop the train, and Barretts hometown will be saved.

Now when i played I crashed into Barrets hometown, but that doesn't mean that the actual character did, most likely he stopped the train in the actual canon story.

The only way to tell is by what is suggested in the sequals, Kain's optional bonus spell however, suggests that he never did obtain it, since you know.. he never uses it ever, or even speaks about it.

And yes, the Earth Harp is part of the world, since Emerald WEAPON is, and Earth Harp is inside of him which you obtain from the remains of Emerald WEAPON. Just as Clouds Ultima weapon is part of Ultimate WEAPON.

Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
1. The biggest thing Kain has frozen, a room, is the biggest thing he can. So Kain can freeze all the time in the planet if he wanted to? Answer this question. And it is not like a time bolt would even hit the much faster Pyron. Fact is, Kain's greatest feat of time control is that of a room. But I guess he could freeze Ego The Living Planet huh?

2. I notice how when debating for Pyron you never want to limit him for the sake of the debate, but when debating for Kain against him, all of the sudden his powers just magically disappear? Bullshit. If you payed any attention at all, he doesn't fly in a fetal position, as the scans I posted clearly show, he flies in the form of a fireball. And actually, he can teleport in a fetal position, he can shield himself in a fetal position, hell, he even has attacks in the fetal position. So no, you would be wrong. Oh and one thing he can do in that position is ram him, it was apparently a viable option against Sargeras, why not Kain? 🙂

You are right, players do not make the canon, so going by that since you can go through the story without even getting the spell, it is not canon. 🙂 And it is confirmed by Kain if the player so chooses to get it, it is not required to complete the canon story, it is not canon, deal with it. 🙂

3. Kain can indefinately teleport until he reaches far in outer space? Lol. Shit argument. What is the farthest Kain has teleported? I am guessing only like 10 feet at best. By then, Pyron can just, you know, blow up Kain's planet or eat it and Kain.

4. He turned it into a ring while smaller than Earth. And it takes little time for Pyron to reach full size. He flies as a fireball, not in a fetal position noob. And he does it at all sizes, including mortal. And proved he had to use his own energy, that is just speculation. 🙂 You are assuming he can't do those things simply cause he changed his size to discredit Pyron, why couldn't he do it at a larger size then BT? Why would he be more limited in his stronger form than his weaker form? Fail logic is fail.

6. Not really, no. The vid made it clear. And BFR him where? To another dimension? Pyron can eat Makai, he can travel dimensions.

7. I am not saying a piece would be frozen in time, I am saying Pyron would not be frozen at all. There needs no momentum, that is just what you want to believe. You can't, and never could, prove he needs momentum. Destiny? His destiny is granted by a planet, which Pyron can eat. Pyron will overrule Nosgoth's rules. No-Limits fallacy.

8. You never made me concede.

1. All time on the planet? no because hes never made inanimate objects freeze, only beings, objects are unaffected it would seem. Much faster? sure after he has built up momentum. Ego? I dont know about him, hes one of those queer marvel ideas so I wouldnt assume anything about how a LOk power would effect it.

2. I limit him because thats not what hes shown, hes never leapt out in space out of his fetal position and started punching planets and shooting fireballs. In the form of a fireball? your really grasping at straws, he is always in his fetal position while moving, the fireball is him, its his trail. Because Sargeras is a large slow being who would not be able to defend himself. Kain is a much smaller being who would likely A: have the ant effect (i.e if this is largest Pyron, the impact on Kains body would be smaller due to his size , like how an ant dropped from the equivelent of a skyscraper to a human, it survives) and the fact Kain wouldnt die from it. Also I dont think Sarg has any attacks to stop Pyron before the momentum.

Youve lost your own argument here, players are not canon, plain and simple, its a players choice to get the spell or not and Kain himself tells us he gains the spell, what the player chooses is irrelvent, maybe Pyron is weak just because someone left the control sitting on the floor and a toddler played and lost 100 times... maybe thats canon?

3. How is it shit, now your slapping a invisible limit on Kains teleportation? youve got no argument at all lol....and no, hes teleported Dimension distance with the Dimension reaver, you cannot beat dimentional movement in distance. apart from inter-fictional movement.

4. Show me the time limit of him changing size please, ive not seen it.

Who is actually saying its his stronger form? just because its bigger?

I have very good logic to indicate why Pyron could not do any of those things, you see Pyron when he grows small, doesnt lose his energy, infact he has condensed all his power into a smaller form, so guess what genius? Pyron can now use the energy hes not using to form an enormous size to create other effects such as blasts and explosions etc.

6. err wtf? Pyron can eat Makai he can travel dimensions....that doesnt even make much sense....and I said BFR to time or space, just shove him into the big bang....

7. How comes? you claim Pyron would not be frozen even though he doesnt have ANY time resistance? "I am bigzor godsor Pyron I can resist anythins coz ime big!" durlaugh and I can also overule every rule in gaming Universe coz I am pyrons!! durw00t

8. No true, you conceded yourself, youve even said you had no arguments for it.

Originally posted by Terryc250
Umm the key to the door is infact canon, if the key to the door is the only way the character is able to go to the door then yes the key is canon, meaning in the story the key is required by the character to obtain to get through the door, there is no other way. Obviously if the character was a 7 foot hammer character, the developers wouldn't make it a simple wooden door. For example in zelda to get through the iron gates he needed to get the key, that means in the story he needed a key to get through the gates, that key is canon because there is no other way the character can get through the gates which makes the game force the character to get the key.

No developer is stupid enough to make a 7 foot sledgehammer giant need a key to get through a wooden door, thats just something you made up.

No, because going by that logic then that would mean that the character obtains every single bonus optional items and gets dialogue that contradicts themselves, which is completely false. There are optional choices throughout the story that a) the player chooses and b) what the actual character chooses.

For example: In FF7 when you are on a train that is about to crash into barrets hometown, you have an option to stop the train, or to not stop the train, if you don't stop it the train will crash into his hometown, the story will still continue but the dialogue is different and the story is slightly different

Or, you can figure out a way to stop the train, and Barretts hometown will be saved.

Now when i played I crashed into Barrets hometown, but that doesn't mean that the actual character did, most likely he stopped the train in the actual canon story.

The only way to tell is by what is suggested in the sequals, Kain's optional bonus spell however, suggests that he never did obtain it, since you know.. he never uses it ever, or even speaks about it.

And yes, the Earth Harp is part of the world, since Emerald WEAPON is, and Earth Harp is inside of him which you obtain from the remains of Emerald WEAPON. Just as Clouds Ultima weapon is part of Ultimate WEAPON.

exactley, you hit the nail on the head at the end of your paragraph, it makes the player, nothing to do with Link, the fact the player has to go and get the key then its diffrent, and no, the developers dont always think of that, ive played so many games and ime sure most people on here have where a few slashes of their sword could break a wooden door or other incaccessable area without doing something complicated to get there for the sake of gameplay. ive been playing the Witcher recently, and theres so many set pieces, tiny bits of wood etc that can block the main character from getting to areas where theres a complicated mission to get to it instead.

It is, ime making a point with an emphasised analogy, however the above point I did not make up, you obviously are finding it difficult to understand my logic.

No part of that logic incidactes every character gets bonus material....if an object itself is uncanon, such as the harp by the sounds of things then obviously its uncanon material anyway regardless of how it is acquired.

"most likely", now your guessing, your point means little if your guessing, what are you trying to get at here, what is your argument with this choice with the train?

The sequels are irrelvent unless they mention the spell, if they dont then you cannot take the negative of them not mentioning it as your evidence for it not excisting. Theres such a thing as developers changing the plot, listen to Madmel, people who made BO 2 were diffrent than those who made Soul reaver. The fact is, he does mention it when he does gain it....

The fact Emerald weapon is, does not make the Earth harp part of the world, just because Diablo dropped me a uniqie shield in the game by the same name does not make that Unique shield canon....