Originally posted by Terryc250
The player plays as Link obviously, the player goes through the story as the character Link. If the story requires Link to obtain a key to open a giant gate, that means in the canon story link goes through the giant gate by obtaining the key. Thats common sense. There are games where you can break down a door with your weapon, however there are doors that are too durable to be broken down, and thats where the key comes in, which is a canon item to the story.No, because like i said, that doesn't happen in games. You will never see a 7 foot giant that can bulldoze buildings have trouble breaking down a door. No game developer is that stupid.
No, the earth harp exists on the planet, as well as the master materia. What do you mean by uncanon? If they aren't canon, they wouldn't put it in the canon game. All of these items are CANON, they exist on the planet, Cloud just doesn't obtain them in the actually storyline.
Wow you don't understand? There are TWO scenarios which can happen in the game. 1) You can stop the train, 2) you can let the train crash and destroy the town
In my game, i let the train crash and destroy the town, which means later in the game i didn't recieve an item i could have got, and alot of the dialogue is different, like the villagers not liking Barret much,
But in the actual canon storyline, Cloud stopped the train, and Barrett is allowed in his hometown.
These are OPTIONAL things you understand? Just because you as the player stopped something, does not mean the actual character stopped it, just because you obtained an item, does not mean the actual character obtained it.
Obviously there will be different dialogue depending on what happens, your dialogue could be different from the actual characters dialogue.
Like if I obtained the Earth Harp there will be a bunch of dialogue between me and the elder.
But in the actual canon plot, there was no dialogue between Cloud and the Elder because Cloud never got the Harp, you understand?
The people who create the sequals are responsible for carrying on the storyline, if they make it so Kain never gained that optional spell in the past then thats canon. The fact is, they make it so Kain is never able to use it, never mentions it, and never does it in the story which means something.
Yes he mentions it IF he gains it, but there's no proof he did gain it, because its optional, it wasn't part of the story no more then KOTR or Master Materia is, no evidence suggests he gained the optional spell in the storyline.
The fact is, its PART of Emerald WEAPON, just as the Ultima Weapon is part of Ultimate WEAPON, its not just a random drop from an opponent, its part of him, there's a difference.
No the Player goes through the game, any action where the player is controlling the character its the gameplay, nothing to do with storyline. You cannot take both, the fact and point of the matter is there are a LOT of games where a character could easily surpass an obstacle in the real world that is blocked by the game world or invulerable, I even remember you bringing up how Kain cannot cut the wall with his sword, yet he can in the cinematics, thats part of the gameplay, if he could cut/damage the wall its unlikely he would have to do half the puzzles in the game which ofc would be boring, thus gameplay mechanics, i.e their not canon.
But you can see a 6 foot tall man stuck up against a plank of wood on the floor in "The Witcher"?
Ofc their not all canon, most of them are just gameplay thus do not exist in the real world sort of like powerups in some games, there is no floating ammo box in real life but there are in many games. I could probably come up with 100 diffrent games if I had infnite time and memory to recall the so many games with glowing powerups, Warcraft has uncanon powerups and items as well, things that cannot and are not made part of the world.
The main thing is, what leads you to belive in the canon storyline Clouds choice was to stop the train? if you know that in the canon then that imediatley tells you that your choice was irrelvent, nothing in LOK makes the players choice relevent, so they are automatically irrelvent. What the player does means nothing, the fact Kains spells are optional to the player means nothing yet in the end, Kain would still have that dialogue in the game, the fact the players decide not to see it is irrelvent.
But theyve not made it so Kain never gains any spell, theres text in the game by Kain himself telling us he gains it, yet you continue to claim that apprently simply because an player decides not to see that text which like a cinematic is always there you seem to belive it does not get gained canonically.
It means nothing, what smashes your argument of "Kain never uses it in the story or gameplay after" is the fact Kain actually has cinematics and non optional powers gained in BO2 (I know you belive Cinematics and non optional things are canon and actually gained from this and other threads) yet he never uses Immolate, Charm, Berserk etc in any game after nor are they mentioned, this imediatley negates your theory that they dont exist because their not mentioned, ofc thats a negative statement anyway, you need a positive to make it even likely that something does not exist in a game i.e facts on how the spell was lost/not able to be used, if they do not exist then automatically its just the developers choice, no canon removal of the spells that makes them unusable.
Theres a diffrence but it does not make it canon, or close to what ime saying, for instance back to the game Diablo, you can gain the body pieces of the prime evils and other characters but their still just as canon as any other item, just because its the "heart" or the "brain" of Diablo does not make it canon unless its made part of the plot/world.
Originally posted by Burning thought
No the Player goes through the game, any action where the player is controlling the character its the gameplay, nothing to do with storyline. You cannot take both, the fact and point of the matter is there are a LOT of games where a character could easily surpass an obstacle in the real world that is blocked by the game world or invulerable, I even remember you bringing up how Kain cannot cut the wall with his sword, yet he can in the cinematics, thats part of the gameplay, if he could cut/damage the wall its unlikely he would have to do half the puzzles in the game which ofc would be boring, thus gameplay mechanics, i.e their not canon.
But you can see a 6 foot tall man stuck up against a plank of wood on the floor in "The Witcher"?
Ofc their not all canon, most of them are just gameplay thus do not exist in the real world sort of like powerups in some games, there is no floating ammo box in real life but there are in many games. I could probably come up with 100 diffrent games if I had infnite time and memory to recall the so many games with glowing powerups, Warcraft has uncanon powerups and items as well, things that cannot and are not made part of the world.
The main thing is, what leads you to belive in the canon storyline Clouds choice was to stop the train? if you know that in the canon then that imediatley tells you that your choice was irrelvent, nothing in LOK makes the players choice relevent, so they are automatically irrelvent. What the player does means nothing, the fact Kains spells are optional to the player means nothing yet in the end, Kain would still have that dialogue in the game, the fact the players decide not to see it is irrelvent.
So that is evidence that the character stops the train, where is your evidence that Kain obtains the optional item?
No, kain would not have the dialogue in the game if he does not obtain the optional spell, because its you know, optional dialogue.
But theyve not made it so Kain never gains any spell, theres text in the game by Kain himself telling us he gains it, yet you continue to claim that apprently simply because an player decides not to see that text which like a cinematic is always there you seem to belive it does not get gained canonically.
It means nothing, what smashes your argument of "Kain never uses it in the story or gameplay after" is the fact Kain actually has cinematics and non optional powers gained in BO2 (I know you belive Cinematics and non optional things are canon and actually gained from this and other threads) yet he never uses Immolate, Charm, Berserk etc in any game after nor are they mentioned, this imediatley negates your theory that they dont exist because their not mentioned, ofc thats a negative statement anyway, you need a positive to make it even likely that something does not exist in a game i.e facts on how the spell was lost/not able to be used, if they do not exist then automatically its just the developers choice, no canon removal of the spells that makes them unusable.
Theres a diffrence but it does not make it canon, or close to what ime saying, for instance back to the game Diablo, you can gain the body pieces of the prime evils and other characters but their still just as canon as any other item, just because its the "heart" or the "brain" of Diablo does not make it canon unless its made part of the plot/world. [/B]
Weapons are real-world things, being part of the real world thing makes the part real-world.
Originally posted by Terryc250
Um, the player goes through the game playing as the [b]CHARACTER going through the characters STORY if the story requires the character to obtain a key to be able to pass through the big gates, then that is part of the story, its not just "gameplay". In defiance, things aren't merely just a regular door thats blocked.huh?
Yes, those are optional things. There's a difference between an optional bonus item, and an item that the developers put there for a reason, and then there are items that the developers put that require the character to obtain to carry on with the story, the first one are non-canon, the second one is a maybe, and the third one is an item that the character actually obtains in the plot.
Because in the novel Barret returns to Corel Reef, etc. so most likely the character successfully stopped the train in the FF7 storyline
So that is evidence that the character stops the train, where is your evidence that Kain obtains the optional item?
No, kain would not have the dialogue in the game if he does not obtain the optional spell, because its you know, optional dialogue.
There is ZERO storyline text that Kain gets the spell, there is only OPTIONAL text. Big difference, understand that. Thats just like me claiming Cloud has Master Materia because dialogue exists of the Elder giving Cloud Master Materia, however its OPTIONAL dialogue.
Yeah but look at all the other powers he has used, mist, jump,tk, those powers are powers vampire gains after time, however many centuries have passed from BO2 to other sequals so we don't know what happens to some of his powers, but anyway, those vampires abilities basically are canon since they are abilities vampires gain after time, however optional spells are different and require evidence to show that Kain actually acquired the spell in the story.
Again, it is part of the world, they are essence of the WEAPON(who are part of the world), just like how Round island is meant for KOTR, they aren't just monster drops, they are part of the WEAPON.
Weapons are real-world things, being part of the real world thing makes the part real-world. [/B]
But your descrbing gameplay, not storyline, storyline is a cutscene, gameplay is doing things in the game world, its not storyline that Diablo character A ran from point B to C because the Player wanted to loot some items. The key has nothing to do with the story, just because the developers think the gameplay[/] would be more interesting if you had to bypass some kind of puzzle or lock.
There are many things in Defiance where using Kains abilities you could get to areas with ease, he has so many such as teleport, mist, batform, yet you can only use them at specific areas, gameplay....
You said that a developer would not be stupid enough to make the door unsmashable, i gave you a game where there is an equelly if not more ridiculous episode, "The Witcher" where Geralt the main character cannot climb over a tiny amount of wood yet has to do a whole puzzle or finish a story piece to get past into the next area, these are all gameplay mechanics, not story like your trying to hold on to.
Theres little diffrence at all, the only diffrence is one is made by the Developer to get more out of the player to access another area rather than easily passing it like they could in the real world through other means (I.e Kains teleportation/mist, or another beings physical strength), The way a character does anything in a game is nothing to do with the players decisions or what they act upon.
Well the dialogie is there so saying its not is nonsense, and its optional to the player ,not to Kain, you cant seem to understand [b]players do not rule whats canon or not, what a player "chooses" to do or not is pointless, hell maybe ill hack the game and skip the whole of DMC 3 so I dont see any of the cinematics, does that mean their not canon if everyone did that? no.....
Theres zero diffrence in canon terms, ofcourse theres a diffrence in what the irrelvent players decision may profit from. Cloud cannot gain master materia because there is no canon dialogue that makes that materia even part of the world for Cloud gaining it.
Saying all that nonsense about Vampire skills they gain over time (which Kain did not, he stole them by drinking other vamps veins) does nothing to help your argument, its basically the same as me saying "well magic is common in Nosgoth and most wizards can learn it and so Kain may have as well etc etc" the fact still remains your constant bantering on how Kain not using the spells means they dont exist is BS and broken into rubble otherwise he would have used immolate, frenzy, berserk etc.
I already answered this, you did not counter my argument, by your logic the random items you gain from Diablo that are connected to him like body parts which are not canon with the story are indeed canon, which is not true, the fact the Weapons are real means nothing about the things you get from them, unless ofc these items your speaking of are canonically described in text/canon storyline.
Originally posted by Burning thought
But your descrbing gameplay, not storyline, storyline is a cutscene, gameplay is doing things in the game world, its not storyline that Diablo character A ran from point B to C because the Player wanted to loot some items. The key has nothing to do with the story, just because the developers think the gameplay[/] would be more interesting if you had to bypass some kind of puzzle or lock.
There are many things in Defiance where using Kains abilities you could get to areas with ease, he has so many such as teleport, mist, batform, yet you can only use them at specific areas, gameplay....
Kain cannot do those things through solid objects.
You said that a developer would not be stupid enough to make the door unsmashable, i gave you a game where there is an equelly if not more ridiculous episode, "The Witcher" where Geralt the main character cannot climb over a tiny amount of wood yet has to do a whole puzzle or finish a story piece to get past into the next area, these are all gameplay mechanics, not story like your trying to hold on to.
Theres little diffrence at all, the only diffrence is one is made by the Developer to get more out of the player to access another area rather than easily passing it like they could in the real world through other means (I.e Kains teleportation/mist, or another beings physical strength), The way a character does anything in a game is nothing to do with the players decisions or what they act upon.
Well the dialogie is there so saying its not is nonsense, and its optional to the player ,not to Kain, you cant seem to understand [b]players do not rule whats canon or not, what a player "chooses" to do or not is pointless, hell maybe ill hack the game and skip the whole of DMC 3 so I dont see any of the cinematics, does that mean their not canon if everyone did that? no.....
Optional things means they aren't mandatory for the story to continue, they're just bonuses, it doesn't mean the character gained all the bonus things in the entire game, take FF7 for example theres tons of bonus items/materia, but hardly any of them were acquired by the actual character, we don't have any evidence they were, same thing with kains bonus spells.
Theres zero diffrence in canon terms, ofcourse theres a diffrence in what the irrelvent players decision may profit from. Cloud cannot gain master materia because there is no canon dialogue that makes that materia even part of the world for Cloud gaining it.
The Kalm Elder is part of the world, The Kalm Elder mentions in-world things, the Kalm Elder mentions the Master Materia, which makes it part of the world. If an in-world character says he has the master materia then it means that in-world character has the item which makes it an in-world thing as well.
Saying all that nonsense about Vampire skills they gain over time (which Kain did not, he stole them by drinking other vamps veins) does nothing to help your argument, its basically the same as me saying "well magic is common in Nosgoth and most wizards can learn it and so Kain may have as well etc etc" the fact still remains your constant bantering on how Kain not using the spells means they dont exist is BS and broken into rubble otherwise he would have used immolate, frenzy, berserk etc.
I already answered this, you did not counter my argument, by your logic the random items you gain from Diablo that are connected to him like body parts which are not canon with the story are indeed canon, which is not true, the fact the Weapons are real means nothing about the things you get from them, unless ofc these items your speaking of are canonically described in text/canon storyline.
Originally posted by Terryc250
No i'm not describing gameplay, its not gameplay that the character passed through the big gates by getting the key to it from another place, thats part of the story.Kain cannot do those things through solid objects.
Show me what you're talking about, its because he simply cannot get over it, and needed to do whatever he had to do to reach his destination.
No, you're simply just excusing this to say Kain is almighty powerful and do anything, so the developers just do these things for fun. You have little faith in the developers minds to do something creative with the game, if the developers do something, its for a reason, if the character requires something to do something, and the developers made it that way, then thats canon, its not that the developers just do these things for no reason, that the character is actually uber powerful, and just to "get more out of the player". If the developers made it so that Kain needed to gain something for his reaver so that he can destroy a barrier, then thats canon.
You don't understand what optional is, yes its optional for the player, which goes back the choices, we don't know what the character chose to do, he could have NOT obtained the spell, he could have obtained the spell, however everything points to him not obtaining the spell, theres zero evidence that he did acquire it.
Optional things means they aren't mandatory for the story to continue, they're just bonuses, it doesn't mean the character gained all the bonus things in the entire game, take FF7 for example theres tons of bonus items/materia, but hardly any of them were acquired by the actual character, we don't have any evidence they were, same thing with kains bonus spells.
Canon dialogue? You mean storyline dialogue? Same thing for kains optional spell.
The Kalm Elder is part of the world, The Kalm Elder mentions in-world things, the Kalm Elder mentions the Master Materia, which makes it part of the world. If an in-world character says he has the master materia then it means that in-world character has the item which makes it an in-world thing as well.
Kain takes them in the story which makes him have it, so we don't need anymore evidence and Kain has used some of the abilities like mist, teleport, tk. The optional spells are different though, because they are not part of the story, and nothing suggests that he did gained them, which means we need some evidence before we can claim he actually acquired them in the plot.
They aren't "random" items, they are part of the WEAPON, the fact that The Elder says he wants the Earth Harp means the Earth Harp exists in the world and even describes it as "A harp that soothes those who hear it" is enough evidence that the Earth Harp is a real object on the planet.
Its gameplay, in Doom the character needs to find blue key, to activate blue door etc, thats not part of the story, here let me clear things up for you with some DMC:
from the beginning of the video at 0:19 is the storyline, cinematic, text, speech etc, yet afterwards you get the gameplay which is player controlled environment combining game mechanics and what the developers technology allows.
T7dMZePqNTA&feature=related
Do what things? you miss the point entirely, the fact of the matter is, he can teleport, he can turn into mist and seep under the floor, etc etc, he could have turned into bats and gone straight to moebius' tower, not having to walk there, but the developers limit this for the gameplay, adding obstacles that are there for the gameplay, nothing to do with the story, kinda like keys for doors
Show you what? ime telling you about something you can see in almost any game, invisible barriers blocking you off and forcing you to do some mission instead, theres nothing to show, ime explaining my point fairly clearly, a small plank of wood the likes of which a 10 year old could climb over, blocks a guy who can slice through monsters with ease and could cut ,or simply step/climb over it in a real storyline, ofc in the gameplay, you have to finish a puzzle or find a key for a door to enter the area instead.
Its not canon if there was no story or text behind it, fortunatley for Kain there was, thing is, this is all gameplay and PIs mechanics, he could easily just turn into bats and go straight to moebius, there is zero reason why not. But your talking about Key A for Door B, thats gameplay that many characters who take part in said games could overcome through other ways in realistic means, not player controlled gameplay. Gameplay is not canon Terry.
No you dont understand that the option was not made for Kain, it was made for the player in the gameplay, either way, the text for Kains dialogue is there.
I like how you keep having to say how someone else is part of the world, it would only be relevent to that logic if the item itself was described as part of the world, there is no canon in Diablo that says Deckard cain actually says "stay a while and listen" every time you click on him just because the player can...do you belive then that Deckard Cain actually says that every time someone speaks to him in the story? please... 🙄
No your missing the point again, we know those abilities are canon, yet your logic dicates that just because the Spirit death and other powers were not used after BO1 means that its likely not to exist, this view and logic is broken by the fact BO2 spells which as you said we KNOW are canon, are not shown either
No, what logic dictates that? Back to the game "The Witcher" many characters give various quests, just because their part of the world and just because they ask this quest of Geralt does not mean its in the canon novel.
Originally posted by Burning thought
ts gameplay, in Doom the character needs to find blue key, to activate blue door etc, thats not part of the story, here let me clear things up for you with some DMC:from the beginning of the video at 0:19 is the storyline, cinematic, text, speech etc, yet afterwards you get the gameplay which is player controlled environment combining game mechanics and what the developers technology allows.
T7dMZePqNTA&feature=related
Its like that with all games, some just use different terms for different characters.
For example in Defiance: When Kain cannot get passed the barrier he needed to get the upgrade for his reaver before he can break the barrier, thats an example of key/door. Its still part of the story that Kain had to go and gain the thing for his reaver to get passed the barrier.
Do what things? you miss the point entirely, the fact of the matter is, he can teleport, he can turn into mist and seep under the floor, etc etc, he could have turned into bats and gone straight to moebius' tower, not having to walk there, but the developers limit this for the gameplay, adding obstacles that are there for the gameplay, nothing to do with the story, kinda like keys for doors
Show you what? ime telling you about something you can see in almost any game, invisible barriers blocking you off and forcing you to do some mission instead, theres nothing to show, ime explaining my point fairly clearly, a small plank of wood the likes of which a 10 year old could climb over, blocks a guy who can slice through monsters with ease and could cut ,or simply step/climb over it in a real storyline, ofc in the gameplay, you have to finish a puzzle or find a key for a door to enter the area instead.
Its not canon if there was no story or text behind it, fortunatley for Kain there was, thing is, this is all gameplay and PIs mechanics, he could easily just turn into bats and go straight to moebius, there is zero reason why not. But your talking about Key A for Door B, thats gameplay that many characters who take part in said games could overcome through other ways in realistic means, not player controlled gameplay. Gameplay is not canon Terry.
Why do you keep saying "gameplay"? No one is discussing gameplay here. Open your mind, objectives are part of the story.
No you dont understand that the option was not made for Kain, it was made for the player in the gameplay, either way, the text for Kains dialogue is there.
I like how you keep having to say how someone else is part of the world, it would only be relevent to that logic if the item itself was described as part of the world, there is no canon in Diablo that says Deckard cain actually says "stay a while and listen" every time you click on him just because the player can...do you belive then that Deckard Cain actually says that every time someone speaks to him in the story? please... 🙄
No your missing the point again, we know those abilities are canon, yet your logic dicates that just because the Spirit death and other powers were not used after BO1 means that its likely not to exist, this view and logic is broken by the fact BO2 spells which as you said we KNOW are canon, are not shown either
No, what logic dictates that? Back to the game "The Witcher" many characters give various quests, just because their part of the world and just because they ask this quest of Geralt does not mean its in the canon novel. [/B]
Originally posted by Terryc250
.. I know what the difference between gameplay and cinematics are duh, but the OBJECTIVES in the game are part of the story, if character1 needs to go to the PointA to obtain the IronDoor key, and he does that in the game then thats part of the story, it means character1 went to PointA to obtain IronDoor key, to get passed the Iron DoorsIts like that with all games, some just use different terms for different characters.
For example in Defiance: When Kain cannot get passed the barrier he needed to get the upgrade for his reaver before he can break the barrier, thats an example of key/door. Its still part of the story that Kain had to go and gain the thing for his reaver to get passed the barrier.
again, Kain cannot do these things through solid objects, even if he could've he didn't in the story, for his own reasons that we don't know. If the player goes through these things, that means the character did a similar path as well. If Kain went up Moebius tower, and there is dialogue and cinematics to prove it, then that means that the character Kain did in the story as well.
Im asking you to show me this little block, either that or the gameplay reduced the size of what it actually is, if the story required the character to obtain something, that means that its part of the story, that simple.
Well 99% of the time there is always dialogue for it, how else would the player know what is needed? It'll always say "door is locked, need to find key" or "Cannot pass gate without blahblah" or something like that, which forces the character to obtain an item to pass, which makes the item canon because the developers force the character to get it to carry on with the story.
Why do you keep saying "gameplay"? No one is discussing gameplay here. Open your mind, [b]objectives
are part of the story.If you are to look through any storyline plot of LOK, you will not see ANYWHERE in the story that Kain gains the spell, its an optional bonus for PLAYERS, just like KOTR and Master Materia is. Optional dialogue is irrelevent because obviously there will be dialogue if the player gains something, there won't be just silence.
Uhh by logic if your part of the world, then you're part of the world, if i'm part of the world, my arm would be part of the world wouldn't it? Stop talking like its just a random drop when its PART of the WEAPON. The damn Elder talks about both the Harp and Master Materia.
Yes, those abilities would also be too would "likely not to exist", hell they might not even exist anymore for all we know its been centuries since then we don't know what happens.
All the optional quests are a big IF, he might've done them, he might've not, we'll never know without evidence, but the actual quests that the developers forced Geralt to do are infact canon. [/B]
Obviously not because you continue your ignorent banter, either that or your holding on to thin air in the hope of not conceding. The objectives are not unless theres actual dialogue or canon speech about the object in question, the chances of there being such about an iron door/key is low.
Thats nothing to do with the story for Kain, the only storylien elements is his speech, other than that, Kain could have done several things to get to moebius without following gameplay doors.
Erm, yeh......he can teleport through objects...and a door is not completly solid, it has holes beneath it or through the side that mist could get through.
Your asking me to show you a block of wood 🙄 even I throught you were capable of understanding what a 4x4 looks like, its basically 3 of those on top of eachother, I cant grasp how you dont realise or have never read/seen your own instances of invisicble barriers stopping players from getting to areas or ridiculous sceneary items like shurbs or bushes, it happens in most games, especially free roaming, but anyway if your going to play dumb w/e, although your prob not playing 😖hifty: . Anyone whos played a game has likely had these situations.
Forcing a PLAYER in the GAMEPLAY to do something does not make it canon, Raziel has to complete puzzles to get through the gaming world but its not mentioned in any script, not mentioned in any dialogue by Raziel, he never if rarely mentions puzzles in canon, their just player gameplay bits that are not relvent, just like doors requiring keys.
I keep saying gameplay because thas what it is, the PLAYER contrlling the character to find a key, complete a puzzle etc is all gameplay, gameplay is irrelvent to canon.
An optional bonus for players to SEE Kain due to his dialogue shows that he actually gains the spell however, the irrelvency is whether players choose to see it or not.
You did not answer my point..again, you dont seem to be able to comprehend a point when I put other games in, I realise you prob only play final fantasy but its not difficult to comprehend a game that ime descrbing the situation in. There is nothing youve shown me that makes the item canon, nothing from a main character, cinematic, or even a relvent character that actually speaks in-depth on the item, if there is not, then its just as canon as the heart of Diablo which is nothing to do with canon.
What abilities? your now changing your tune and saying abilities that are actually shown to be in canon gained by Kain are now non existant just because YOU THINK the centuries passing would somehow rob him of spells and abilties hes gained? Thats one of the most ridiculous combination of Hypocricy and speculation youve come up with in the last day at least durlaugh. Concede your broken and pathetic argument, here say it with me: "I concede that the Kain not using those spells or any other in more recent LOK titles has zero evidence to tie against him having the spells he gains in games".
(w8s for Terry to randomly simply repeat his alreay weak argument...like he usually does with his points)
False, quests developers force someone do are not canon, the player being forced into something is not canon, especially during gameplay, what makes something canon is storyline/script for the characters and objects concerned, likea cinematic.
Originally posted by Burning thought
Obviously not because you continue your ignorent banter, either that or your holding on to thin air in the hope of not conceding. The objectives are not unless theres actual dialogue or canon speech about the object in question, the chances of there being such about an iron door/key is low.
Thats nothing to do with the story for Kain, the only storylien elements is his speech, other than that, Kain could have done several things to get to moebius without following gameplay doors.
Erm, yeh......he can teleport through objects...and a door is not completly solid, it has holes beneath it or through the side that mist could get through.
Your asking me to show you a block of wood 🙄 even I throught you were capable of understanding what a 4x4 looks like, its basically 3 of those on top of eachother, I cant grasp how you dont realise or have never read/seen your own instances of invisicble barriers stopping players from getting to areas or ridiculous sceneary items like shurbs or bushes, it happens in most games, especially free roaming, but anyway if your going to play dumb w/e, although your prob not playing 😖hifty: . Anyone whos played a game has likely had these situations.
Forcing a PLAYER in the GAMEPLAY to do something does not make it canon, Raziel has to complete puzzles to get through the gaming world but its not mentioned in any script, not mentioned in any dialogue by Raziel, he never if rarely mentions puzzles in canon, their just player gameplay bits that are not relvent, just like doors requiring keys.
I keep saying gameplay because thas what it is, the PLAYER contrlling the character to find a key, complete a puzzle etc is all gameplay, gameplay is irrelvent to canon.
An optional bonus for players to SEE Kain due to his dialogue shows that he actually gains the spell however, the irrelvency is whether players choose to see it or not.
I've told you the difference between optional dialogue and actual storyline dialogue, Kain has no dialogue gaining that spell in the storyline, zero, none. Zero evidence he obtained it, Accept it.
You did not answer my point..again, you dont seem to be able to comprehend a point when I put other games in, I realise you prob only play final fantasy but its not difficult to comprehend a game that ime descrbing the situation in. There is nothing youve shown me that makes the item canon, nothing from a main character, cinematic, or even a relvent character that actually speaks in-depth on the item, if there is not, then its just as canon as the heart of Diablo which is nothing to do with canon.
Your point is nonsense, and has completely nothing to do with what we're talking about, you're just once again failing to comprehend what i'm saying.
Dude, the entire FF7 game is "canon" but what is obtained by the character is not canon.
Earth Harp exists in FF7, so do the materia's, there is just no evidence Cloud gains them in the plot.
The Elder talks about Earth Harp and that it has a soothing whatever, says he has the Master Materia, but all of this is irrelevent, everything in the game is canon because well, the game itself is "canon". But what Cloud obtains in the actual plot is a question.
What abilities? your now changing your tune and saying abilities that are actually shown to be in canon gained by Kain are now non existant just because YOU THINK the centuries passing would somehow rob him of spells and abilties hes gained? Thats one of the most ridiculous combination of Hypocricy and speculation youve come up with in the last day at least durlaugh. Concede your broken and pathetic argument, here say it with me: "I concede that the Kain not using those spells or any other in more recent LOK titles has zero evidence to tie against him having the spells he gains in games".(w8s for Terry to randomly simply repeat his alreay weak argument...like he usually does with his points)
I understand you're frustrated because you keep getting shut down and cannot provide any evidence or even proper logic for that matter, but keep yourself calm BT.
False, quests developers force someone do are not canon, the player being forced into something is not canon, especially during gameplay, what makes something canon is storyline/script for the characters and objects concerned, likea cinematic.
Originally posted by Terryc250
No, you're just having comprehending issues with what i'm saying and just going "gameplay gameplay gameplay" when i'm clearly not talking about gameplay you just fail to comprehend it. If you have read my post more carefully i said 99% of those kinds of thing have dialogue, how else would the player know what to get? Objectives are part of the story, concede already.If the developers had Kain go up the tower, then in the story Kain most likely went up the tower. The thing you fail to understand is, not every game uses "doors" it differs from character to game, Kain in Defiance for example had Barriers instead of locked doors, and the reaver upgrade instead of keys. The fact that it was a character objective to go and gain that reaver upgrade is canon to the story.
Again, different games uses different elements, thats why locked doors wasn't used in Defiance.
God you're completely not understand the difference between what i'm talking about, and you're just saying nonsense about gameplay which i'm not even talking about, invisible walls and crap are gaemplay, but that has nothing to do what i'm talking about, items that the story forces the character to get to carry on with the story are canon, they are OBJECTIVES for the character, the character needs the item for a reason. Whether it be the master sword to defeat ganon, or the key of harmonious to get passed the angellic gates, these are plot items.
The entire thing might not be canon but its overall sequence is canon, if the game made Kain go up the tower to reach Moebius, then Kain went up the tower to reach Moebius, there might've been different ways, but he did it that way.
No one is talking about puzzles, objective items are what characters are required to obtain, if the developers make it so the character must get an item, then thats part of the story.
Wow, this again? I've already smashed this point along time ago.
I've told you the difference between optional dialogue and actual storyline dialogue, Kain has no dialogue gaining that spell in the storyline, zero, none. Zero evidence he obtained it, Accept it.
rofl shut up BT, you didn't even know who heihachi or m.bison was not long ago.
Your point is nonsense, and has completely nothing to do with what we're talking about, you're just once again failing to comprehend what i'm saying.
Dude, the entire FF7 game is "canon" but what is obtained by the character is not canon.
Earth Harp exists in FF7, so do the materia's, there is just no evidence Cloud gains them in the plot.
The Elder talks about Earth Harp and that it has a soothing whatever, says he has the Master Materia, but all of this is irrelevent, everything in the game is canon because well, the game itself is "canon". But what Cloud obtains in the actual plot is a question.
uhh if you look a bit closely i was quoting you who said "likely not to exist" those are your words, i just quoted them, there's a difference between not existing and not having, if the abilities Kain had were just spells that he needed to acquire like Spirit Death, then he most likely didn't acquire them because we have no evidence he did.
I understand you're frustrated because you keep getting shut down and cannot provide any evidence or even proper logic for that matter, but keep yourself calm BT.
Actually yes they are to an extent, take Fable for example, its filled with just optional quests, we don't know what the characters actually do and what he chooses but what we do know is that he did the quest "get to the hero's guild and learn your skills there" We know that because the developers force the character to do that, so the character actually learns his skills from the hero's guild and not somewhere else
False, dont lie, your talking about gameplay objects influenced by players during gameplay, and that does not count as dialogue, when you run out of bullets in a game and the guy says "not enough ammo" him running out of ammo in the gameplay is not canon to the storyline.
No, the fact that Kain actually tells us he does it, and the script shows us, is what makes it canon, the player being forced to do something is uncanon.
No but you see this is where you fail, IF THERE WAS NO INVISIBLE BARRIER, THEN THERE WOULD BE NO REQUIREMENT IN THE CANON IN WHICH THE INVISIBLE BARRIER WOULD NOT EXIST FOR THE CHARACTER TO GET THE ITEM SUCH AS A KEY TO GET THROUGH A DOOR its not that hard to understand..
no the only identification that in canon Kain went up the tower is the way he gained the powers on the way, if he never did that and all we see is dialogueless storyless gameplay then that gameplay and the way the player is forced to do something is pointless.
Puzzles are in the exact same box that you would put keys, their a means in gameplay to get onto the next area, as you keep saying "diffrent games have diffrent terms".
Nope, he has dialogue, ive shown you see too many times.
rofl shut up Terry, you dont seem to have any idea of what most of these games are, youve said rediculous things about so many mainstream games now, hell it makes me wonder if all you do is play FF lol.
Regardless of whether FF the game as a whole is canon, the items and abilities we use in debates have other attributes to allow them, a non canonical ability that is not true to the character in a real world senario would not have any text anchoring it to the world. i.e by the sound of it that harp.
This does not even look like an answer to my point, me keep calm? ime always calm Terry, a weak debator like yourself or any internet activity (apart from lag) can break my calm, yet youve not answered the point, the fact remains that constantly claiming "well he never usd them in more recent LOK games!!" means nothing, concede that point.
No, being forced does not make it canon, the cinematic with the guild master and the dialogue of your inititation into the guild is what makes it canon and legit.