Kain(LOK) vs. Pyron(DS)

Originally posted by Burning thought
Strength i agree completly but Speed, you have to prove that one to me, and no, the anime is not the proof, he doesnt move further than kain can teleport and pyrons teleport IS slower..thats all i can say, and thats a fact...whats your "fact" that he is faster

also most of LOK are invincible because they are spirit creatures, it takes soul destroyers for example to kill kain, Raziel maybe the Elder God but he has never been killed by a soul destroyer and cannot be touched by physical. Also wheres your science about dimension damage?..i mean Raziel breaks a hole through dimension with his TK burst, yes the barrier between dimensions were weakened but thats still dimension breaking, but what makes you think its an incredible feat to break a hole through a dimension..i mean yes destroying a whole dimension, if its say..the size of the universe is powerful without saying.

and another thing is that kain unlike a lot of these darkstalkers has many ways to make his body ethereal, lets to say immetereal or unhittable, for example he can turn into thousands of bats..or turn into mist..its a fact no matter how people try and make it sound silly that you cannot punch mist, go out and try it if you wish..unless someone shows a feat doing so..you cannot bring it in as fact and kains teleport has incredible range and happens instantly, and kain can destory pyron in one because he has not proven as a "fact" to have ability to protect his soul, one soul death which has great range and is not in the form of a projectile and pyron no matter his size would die..its a face that pyron would die of his soul dieing, unless ofcourse you can prove in fact otherwise...

2. Most of LOK are invincible? No, they are not. Anyone with a type of way to eat souls or whatever can beat them, and the ones with a physical body can be beated by those who can't. The Silver Arrow(I can't really remember the name of the attack tho it was similar to this) fired by Belial is indeed capable of shattering a whole f*ckin dimension, universe and all, and Demitri survived a half powered one. Pyron was able to hurt him, who has durability arguably greater than Superman.

3. I never said Kain's powers of turning immaterial are invalid. Pyron howver, is capable of doing it, and still able to attck while doing it, as shown when Demitri tryed to punch Pyron, and his fist went right thru Pyron who then executed this badass spinning wheel attack.

4. I cannot probve Pyron can protect his soul no, but Pyron as stated his power is limited only by his imagination(which means he's possibly capable of omnipotence) and may be able to defend against it, but no I can't prove it. My other question is, will Kain's Soul Death be able to hit a being who is not even physical?

Originally posted by shin_gear
He's a cloud of freaking energy dude.

so...hes a being that excists, just because he takes on a form doesnt mean he can live without his soul...i mean kain can become mist and bats but he doesnt turn into lots of souls or can live without his soul in mist form, he would still die without his soul..or i assume he would, although the LOK hasnt finished yet

Originally posted by Violent2Dope
1.That wasn't the anime, it was the OVA. What part of traveling the distance of Solar Systems don't you get? He can go from planet to planet very quickly. Also, I'm not sure, but I thinkthat fighting in the OVA may of been slowed down, I'll have to research more about the OVA and get back to you on that. I don't think Pyron's tele is slower, it looked to me he was just putting up his shield prior to teleing. But for the sake of moving on in life I'll concede the tele thing.

2. Most of LOK are invincible? No, they are not. Anyone with a type of way to eat souls or whatever can beat them, and the ones with a physical body can be beated by those who can't. The Silver Arrow(I can't really remember the name of the attack tho it was similar to this) fired by Belial is indeed capable of shattering a whole f*ckin dimension, universe and all, and Demitri survived a half powered one. Pyron was able to hurt him, who has durability arguably greater than Superman.

3. I never said Kain's powers of turning immaterial are invalid. Pyron howver, is capable of doing it, and still able to attck while doing it, as shown when Demitri tryed to punch Pyron, and his fist went right thru Pyron who then executed this badass spinning wheel attack.

4. I cannot probve Pyron can protect his soul no, but Pyron as stated his power is limited only by his imagination(which means he's possibly capable of omnipotence) and may be able to defend against it, but no I can't prove it. My other question is, will Kain's Soul Death be able to hit a being who is not even physical?

okie i agree with your points, point 2 is what i was trying to say and agree with, perhaps i sounded like i was disagreeing, ime sorry i wasnt and as for 4: kains soul death is not a move of physical or projectile nature, it sort of simply blasts your soul from your body, it doesnt take a form, its like a spiritual blast, but not a projectile. All that seems to happen is that the targets soul is ripped from their body, nothing hits them if i remeber correctly, but thats soul death, soul blast is slightly diffrent, it seems to take the form of a homeing immaterial beam that moves at incredible speed and blasts both your body and your soul into disintigration but soul death would be the best move on pyron.

Originally posted by Burning thought
okie i agree with your points, point 2 is what i was trying to say and agree with, perhaps i sounded like i was disagreeing, ime sorry i wasnt and as for 4: kains soul death is not a move of physical or projectile nature, it sort of simply blasts your soul from your body, it doesnt take a form, its like a spiritual blast, but not a projectile. All that seems to happen is that the targets soul is ripped from their body, nothing hits them if i remeber correctly, but thats soul death, soul blast is slightly diffrent, it seems to take the form of a homeing immaterial beam that moves at incredible speed and blasts both your body and your soul into disintigration but soul death would be the best move on pyron.

soul death is as it applies kills your soul, its the blast that needs to blast out of a body, sry i must have mixed it, same with spirit death..or is that the same, theres one where kain posseses the body after he rips out the soul, but he couldnt possess pyron ofc

and who he has used it on i dont know 100%, i know mostly anything except bosses can be targeted by it, and their souls are destroyed and this includes vampires, demons..etc etc..

also whats powerful? pyron or his soul...his soul as i said is diffrent to his body isnt it, its his life force and is the same regardless of what he can do and what shows of power he can put on.

also theres another adition that will put the favour of this battle in kains hands...time reaver...kain can turn pyrons speed, if it is superior into nothingness when he uses it, causing pyron to move at a crawl as well as increasing kains speed...pyron could definatley lose this battle

Originally posted by Burning thought
soul death is as it applies kills your soul, its the blast that needs to blast out of a body, sry i must have mixed it, same with spirit death..or is that the same, theres one where kain posseses the body after he rips out the soul, but he couldnt possess pyron ofc

and who he has used it on i dont know 100%, i know mostly anything except bosses can be targeted by it, and their souls are destroyed and this includes vampires, demons..etc etc..

also whats powerful? pyron or his soul...his soul as i said is diffrent to his body isnt it, its his life force and is the same regardless of what he can do and what shows of power he can put on.

2. In all dead seriousness vampires and demons in LOK are on the whole weaker than DS.

3.Pyron is very powerful, as for his soul, how the hell can I know that? Also, when you think about it, how can a being of pure cosmic energy have a soul? The reason why I think Pyron may be immune to Soul Death is because he is the DS equivelant of Galactus in many ways(beyond the obvious), both are capable of any feat they can imagine with some kind of limit(limited omnipotence in other words) and both need a plot device to be defeated(in Pyron's case, Demitri's absorption abilities).

yes but like kain all plot devices have reasons behind them, since in LOK its so weird and the story is confusing ime not 100% sure but its believed only the reaver can kill kain, but i assume that its only because the reaver can eat kains soul...so i assume anything that can eat kains soul can kill him.

obviously if you lose your soul,its a fact in almost every gaming unvierse,infact i cant think of any atm that is diffrent, if something loses its soul, it dies...simply, or becomes nothing.

also whats the proof in saying hes like the DS galactus, i mean nothing so far suggest pyron can do much more than eat planets and such...sure he has many attacks but galactus can blow up the entire dimension or unvierse he is in thousands of times over at his full strength...(what ive heard, ime no marvel genius)

and its obviously a point of view, you say vampires in DS are more powerful...yet they have weaknesses that LOK vampires out evolved thousands of years ago, or at least the strongest ones, for example sunlight, Demetri who i assume is the strongest DS vampire or the strongest ive heard of without his shield would be greatly damaged or maybe die in sunlight, or something like that (no DS Guru either) but kain and his sons are immune completly and see the sun now as a joke. But the fact still draws that kain can kill souls..without soul=death...pyron has a soul so he is vulerable, its logically correct

but now ive rememberd time reaver spell, kain has even more cards in his hand to defeat pyron, i mean if the big dude cannot move to do anything to kain and kain casually casts soul death what can he do? logically nothing, as far as ime aware he does have no protection against time powers and he does not have protection as fact against his soul...

i mean sure, i admit hes an awsome being, he can move fast, teleport, shield himself...can be the size that dwarfs galaxies but with time frozen and his soul open to kains powers that he excels in...hes doomed am i not correct? or can this fate be countered do you believe?

Originally posted by Burning thought
yes but like kain all plot devices have reasons behind them, since in LOK its so weird and the story is confusing ime not 100% sure but its believed only the reaver can kill kain, but i assume that its only because the reaver can eat kains soul...so i assume anything that can eat kains soul can kill him.

obviously if you lose your soul,its a fact in almost every gaming unvierse,infact i cant think of any atm that is diffrent, if something loses its soul, it dies...simply, or becomes nothing.

also whats the proof in saying hes like the DS galactus, i mean nothing so far suggest pyron can do much more than eat planets and such...sure he has many attacks but galactus can blow up the entire dimension or unvierse he is in thousands of times over at his full strength...(what ive heard, ime no marvel genius)

and its obviously a point of view, you say vampires in DS are more powerful...yet they have weaknesses that LOK vampires out evolved thousands of years ago, or at least the strongest ones, for example sunlight, Demetri who i assume is the strongest DS vampire or the strongest ive heard of without his shield would be greatly damaged or maybe die in sunlight, or something like that (no DS Guru either) but kain and his sons are immune completly and see the sun now as a joke. But the fact still draws that kain can kill souls..without soul=death...pyron has a soul so he is vulerable, its logically correct

but now ive rememberd time reaver spell, kain has even more cards in his hand to defeat pyron, i mean if the big dude cannot move to do anything to kain and kain casually casts soul death what can he do? logically nothing, as far as ime aware he does have no protection against time powers and he does not have protection as fact against his soul...

i mean sure, i admit hes an awsome being, he can move fast, teleport, shield himself...can be the size that dwarfs galaxies but with time frozen and his soul open to kains powers that he excels in...hes doomed am i not correct? or can this fate be countered do you believe?

2. Yes, but I'm starting to doubt if Pyron really has a soul...he's evolved to a higher state of existence than most creatures, and lost his body, so saying he lost his soul is not too far fetched.

3. Galactus has sufficient power to bust a galaxy, which is about what Pyron could logically due(when you're bigger as one, you can bust one, tho I have a theory that Pyron may only be limited to physical attacks while at his largest size). Galactus at full strength can rival Eternity I heard, but I am no Marvel genius as well, but they do share the fact it took plot devices to beat them and they are each limited omnipotent beings.

4. They do retain that one weakness, however it is of little consequence to the likes of Demitri, who can just cast an aura around him to protect him from it and is capable of fighting with it. The sun only hindered Demitri after surviving Belial's attack and being so weakened he could not leave his barrier surrounded castle to go out in the sun, and was reduced to luring in humans to feast on and feed his power for thousands of years.

5. I just realized another power of Pyron's. If he were to rush Kain, he could trap him in his shield, and tele to the sun and leave him there, and also beat his ass while he's in there to keep him from casting Soul Death. Also, if the sun is beyond Pyron's teleing range, the center of the earth will work too. Also, I can't prove this once again, but Pyron may be able to be immune to Time Reaver much in the same way I think he may be immune to Soul Death. Another thing I should say is Pyron has very fast punching speed, in DS gameplay, when he does a jab, all you see is a small burst of fire in front of his front fist(he has a stance that is similar to boxing), but his fist never visibly moves. In reality, he simply did a jab that left some of his fire behind.

6. If he can tele Kain before Kain can do those moves, he'll prevent them.

well this depends on their distance, as i thought earlier, and as what the anime shows is that pyrons speed when teleporting is suspect and kain can activate time powers instantly, its like through thought and time will slow to a bare crawl and speed up kain. Also simply because you lose your body doesnt mean you lose your soul, as i explained earlier Kain when he mists doesnt lose his soul, yet he more or less loses his body since he becomes some sort of supernatural mist. Same with everything in LOK which is filled with things that have souls, its a very spiritual game and when you kill enemies with normal weapons their souls leave their bodies but do not cease to excist, but ofcourse their bodies are dead.

i mean i admit Pyron is quick but not faster than thought, neither is his teleport it seems either, i dont see him pulling off this feet before kains throughts control time..and then same as before, pyron is doomed after that.

however its now very late for me and ime tired so nn

Originally posted by Burning thought
well this depends on their distance, as i thought earlier, and as what the anime shows is that pyrons speed when teleporting is suspect and kain can activate time powers instantly, its like through thought and time will slow to a bare crawl and speed up kain. Also simply because you lose your body doesnt mean you lose your soul, as i explained earlier Kain when he mists doesnt lose his soul, yet he more or less loses his body since he becomes some sort of supernatural mist. Same with everything in LOK which is filled with things that have souls, its a very spiritual game and when you kill enemies with normal weapons their souls leave their bodies but do not cease to excist, but ofcourse their bodies are dead.

i mean i admit Pyron is quick but not faster than thought, neither is his teleport it seems either, i dont see him pulling off this feet before kains throughts control time..and then same as before, pyron is doomed after that.

however its now very late for me and ime tired so nn

2. As I said I think fights in the OVA were slowed down, as Pyron can travel Solar Systems in almost no time at all(Which is actually beyond lightspeed, tho I won't jump the gun and say fosho he is, damn I wish Who Else was here to provide some sources). Also, tho this is unlikely, if Time Reaver is really Kain's only shot, what if Pyron were to bring up his shield and try to tele? That would make Pyron invulnerable for the entire time Time Reaver takes place.

3. Night.

Originally posted by Violent2Dope
1. Well, I never sopecified the distance, so I guess I'll make it 20 feet. Pyron is very fast, and can probably get to Kain and hit him before he can, which will likely blow Kain in half, and then if Pyron were to keep Kain in his field and tele to the sun, Kain could not hope to ever leave, whereas Pyron would. Kain only changes his form, whereas Pyron's body was literally disintigrated by his own energy and what was left was the form we know now, he then proceeded to eat his planet and head for more.

2. As I said I think fights in the OVA were slowed down, as Pyron can travel Solar Systems in almost no time at all(Which is actually beyond lightspeed, tho I won't jump the gun and say fosho he is, damn I wish Who Else was here to provide some sources). Also, tho this is unlikely, if Time Reaver is really Kain's only shot, what if Pyron were to bring up his shield and try to tele? That would make Pyron invulnerable for the entire time Time Reaver takes place.

3. Night.

1. the likelyness pyron can hit kain before he merely thinks is very litte even over 20 feet unless point 2 is proven and that he can actually move at lightspeed, but no evidence so far can point to that since the anime he moves fast but not much faster than weve seen the sparda brothers do or other gameing characters, also how long until the fight ends, if kain is teleported into the sun then since hes immortal and the sun would not kill him, its a matter of thousands of years or millions before the sun supernovas or dies in which case kain is free agian, so you would have to set a time limit to the battle also dont forget kain evolves every few hundred years, more likely much sooner, so if you leave kain in there too long pyron could end up making him even more powerful.

2. hmm yes well we need proof, its a shame "who else" is not here i would like him to debate this as well, where is he? has he left the forum?.
although moving at faster than light travel logically is time travel, if you move faster than the speed of light you go back in time, so he would need an extra ability to nutralise this. And as ive said that pyrons shield has only been proven to block physical attacks, wheras soul death destroys your soul from inside you, so nothing will actually hit pyrons shield because it is not a projectile, but the time reaver would probably be kains shot at this battle, perhaps his best attack since pyron would be vulnerable.

didnt the creators say that kain finished evolving in defiance?? 😬

Originally posted by Burning thought
1. the likelyness pyron can hit kain before he merely thinks is very litte even over 20 feet unless point 2 is proven and that he can actually move at lightspeed, but no evidence so far can point to that since the anime he moves fast but not much faster than weve seen the sparda brothers do or other gameing characters, also how long until the fight ends, if kain is teleported into the sun then since hes immortal and the sun would not kill him, its a matter of thousands of years or millions before the sun supernovas or dies in which case kain is free agian, so you would have to set a time limit to the battle also dont forget kain evolves every few hundred years, more likely much sooner, so if you leave kain in there too long pyron could end up making him even more powerful.

2. hmm yes well we need proof, its a shame "who else" is not here i would like him to debate this as well, where is he? has he left the forum?.
although moving at faster than light travel logically is time travel, if you move faster than the speed of light you go back in time, so he would need an extra ability to nutralise this. And as ive said that pyrons shield has only been proven to block physical attacks, wheras soul death destroys your soul from inside you, so nothing will actually hit pyrons shield because it is not a projectile, but the time reaver would probably be kains shot at this battle, perhaps his best attack since pyron would be vulnerable.

2. Who Else did leave, he had access to a bunch of DS stuff for proof. Actually, it is very possible to move faster than light via FTL, which means manipulating the gravity around you to move beyond lightspeed. Really, if Kain can do all the things you say he can, this seems to be a battle of who can do what first.

Originally posted by MadMel
didnt the creators say that kain finished evolving in defiance?? 😬

i dont think they did, if they did i missed it, i would be interested in seeing where it said that, i thought they said that because of his corruption inside of him he was stunted in evolution but after Raziel purified him at the end of defiance he could continue to evolve. Although why would he not evolve?, unless ofcourse they mean because in the storyline he will probably be destroyed or removed from the plot as elder kain becuase are they not both doomed to live out their excistence over and over..the lok Storyline is incomplete and by itself a little confusing at times since its so in-depth.

also although their just murals, however in the murals kain has wings, so i would imagine hed eventually evolve wings, otherwise i dont see why he would stop evolving, i mean raziel says he is evolving throughout the millenia he served as his son, what would happen to kain to stop him evolving since then, perhaps the purification stops kain evolving, not sure.

Respond to my post dammit.

Wow, why?

Witness the pure uberness of Pyron after being reborn as a Cosmic being.

That was like, so ub3r

Originally posted by Violent2Dope
Witness the pure uberness of Pyron after being reborn as a Cosmic being.

Originally posted by Superboy Prime
No because he goes mist for the win! durlaugh