Originally posted by Newjak
Or to put it into a Mathematical concept for you. God will always be able to hold the rock but seeing as he can always make a bigger rock ,because there is no limit to the size he can create, he will never reach that point of failure because he can always go to another level. Therefore the point at which he either fails or doesn't will never come because there is no ending point for it to happen. Thus the concept of Inifinity there can never be an end.
Your last paragraph here spells out something I'd like to mention (though I read all of it).
You're assuming that "failure" = Can't Lift Rock. What if failure = can't make a rock too big to lift? So sure, an omnipotent being could always lift said rock....or always not, depending on what we're defining as "success". You can't have it both ways....but actually, you can, because you're omnipotent. But not at the same time, thus < Omnipotence.
However, this was your main point:
Originally posted by Newjak
So the very concept of Omnipotence doesn't allow for the Rock of Paradox because a being that is not limited to our scope and range can make it so that Paradox's don't even exist.
But that's begging the question just like Superluv was doing earlier. Can they truly make it so that paradox's can't exist? How? You're stating that they can without showing a way, and saying that "their experience of reality is beyond ours" (or something similar) doesn't validate the answer, because again you're simply assuming that somewhere beyond human thought lies the ability to negate paradoxes....which we can't know. And the burden of proof would lie with those who think it can be done, because in terms of our current (meager 😉 ) human understanding there's no way to do it.
And appealing to the definition of omnipotence isn't any better, because it's still begging it's own question for paradoxes...it exists as an idea/word/concept/etc. but can't functionally exist in the field of reality.
Originally posted by ExodusCloak
My head hurts. A bit off topic: If an omnipotent person was confined to follow a set of universal laws they placed down does that still make them omnipotent?
Key word: "confined". So no.
Originally posted by DigiMark007They problem is that you assume that failure has to come at some point but if there is no ending point failure can not take place. So there is no both ways about it.
Your last paragraph here spells out something I'd like to mention (though I read all of it).You're assuming that "failure" = Can't Lift Rock. What if failure = can't make a rock too big to lift? So sure, an omnipotent being could always lift said rock....or always not, depending on what we're defining as "success". You can't have it both ways....but actually, you can, because you're omnipotent. But not at the same time, thus < Omnipotence.
I know you must known the concept of observed probability. That since we have observed that the sun has always risen that we can make an observable guess it will rise tomorrow though there is no true evidence to support it.
So we have Omnipotence(God) that we know can always make a bigger rock
So we have God that can hold anything.
We shall observe that every time the rock gets bigger he holds the rock. So we after seeing this for how many intervals of increase we assume that he will lift the next one. He does so assume that we will lift the very next ten. He does.
At what point do we say he has failed at failing to fail. The hundredth interval, the millionth. The very idea of Observable Probability means we can not assume what will happen next because we can only truly observe what happens that time and since the in order for failure to to take place some point of ending must happen. The very concept of infinity doesn't allow for it. I'll explain more of it later.
Originally posted by DigiMark007The reason is that in our Meager human understanding we do understand the Concept of No Limit(Infinity). It is a mathematical principle that must be taken into account. So if the idea of Infinity can exist then so does it mean that the concept of a being of Infinity can exist and a being of Infinity has defined by Math would be without limits thus we must assume if talking about Omnipotence then it can not be without bonds or it is not Omnipotent.
But that's begging the question just like Superluv was doing earlier. Can they truly make it so that paradox's can't exist? How? You're stating that they can without showing a way, and saying that "their experience of reality is beyond ours" (or something similar) doesn't validate the answer, because again you're simply assuming that somewhere beyond human thought lies the ability to negate paradoxes....which we can't know. And the burden of proof would lie with those who think it can be done, because in terms of our current (meager 😉 ) human understanding there's no way to do it.
Now I understand what you are trying to say that Omnipotence can not exist because the idea of Unlimited Reality bending power can not exist because we do not understand how it would be wthout such a concept.
But once again if we must allow for the concept Infinity for Math to make sense then we must also take into account that we as humans must embrace that our knowledge is not absolute therefore anything can and could happen. It is the very basis of Science as well.
Originally posted by Newjak
[B]They problem is that you assume that failure has to come at some point but if there is no ending point failure can not take place. So there is no both ways about it.I know you must known the concept of observed probability. That since we have observed that the sun has always risen that we can make an observable guess it will rise tomorrow though there is no true evidence to support it.
So we have Omnipotence(God) that we know can always make a bigger rock
So we have God that can hold anything.
We shall observe that every time the rock gets bigger he holds the rock. So we after seeing this for how many intervals of increase we assume that he will lift the next one. He does so assume that we will lift the very next ten. He does.
At what point do we say he has failed at failing to fail. The hundredth interval, the millionth. The very idea of Observable Probability means we can not assume what will happen next because we can only truly observe what happens that time and since the in order for failure to to take place some point of ending must happen. The very concept of infinity doesn't allow for it. I'll explain more of it later.
That actually makes a lot of sense. If there's no end to the experiment there is no conclusion...so success or failure(Which ever way you look at it) will never be determined.
I understand how the infinite nature of omnipotence poses a problem for our understanding, and also for the resolution of such paradoxes. But in my mind, all it's doing is postponing the paradox indefinitely...it's not positing a solution to the endeavor (regardless of our criteria for success). So it's not negating the paradox or making it non-existent, it's just entering an infinitely recursive loop by which we can forego the conclusion indefinitely.
And if we stick to the strict definition of omnipotence, whereby "anything" is possible, "resolving the paradox" rests within the realm of Everything.
Originally posted by DigiMark007
Well good for you, I'm sure "university" is thrilled to have you, but it doesn't make you right.
OK, I take it I'm entitled to be rude now as you took the first shot at me ? 😄
Originally posted by DigiMark007
Help explain for me how "true" imnipotence would get around those interesting loopholes, like the one I suggested.
First off, no one is talking about imnipotence, or whatever the hell you
where referring to.
I know your desperate to enforce your seemingly superior intellect, but confusing the word Omnipotence, with a derivative that is closely associated with ones inability to get a hard on (i.e. impotence), is actually very amusing at your expense.
second, surrounding traditionally obvious words such as true, with quotation marks doesn't make you clever. It gives off the impression that your having difficulty quantifying the meaning of the word true, which in itself is pretty retarded also.
Originally posted by DigiMark007
that is we are referring to omnipotence, i.e. the
You can't, because it doesn't. Using words like subjective reality, metaphysical (one word, btw) existence, and the like do nothing to wash away the contradictions.
This is similarly related to my previous point, as your highlighting your inability to comprehend the words I mentioned previously (such as metaphysical, and subjective ). If you understood their actual meanings, you would realise that one doesn't have to apply reason and logistics to the meta physical because it cant be observed and is beyond validation. To suggest that reason should be applied, is presumptuous and quite arrogant. So, i do some research before you start shouting your mouth off.
Originally posted by DigiMark007
If you want to provide valid reasons why it doesn't, be my guest. I'm open to discussion, as well as having my mind changed. But semantic overload (using words and terms that you think your audience won't comprehend fully, and thus not be able to refute) isn't going to work.
It obviously did in this case because you highlighted your ignorance towards their meanings, so your point is completely and utterly mute ! In fact your quite bigoted !
Originally posted by DigiMark007
If you want to talk about post-human concepts that humans can't currently comprehend (like imagining a 5-dimensional cube, which we can't) then that's one thing. But the very fact that it is just that, post human....post "us" and our understanding of reality....means that our opinion is instantly invalidated any time we talk about it because it is quite simply beyond our ability to comprehend, explain, or argue with. So speculation will only get so far before you run into ideas that can't be explained.
Spoken like a true Nihilist ! Using that stance I could refute that everything is meaning less, and that nothing should be speculated about.
I mean for gods sake you speculate about fictional battles on a regular basis, (events that are totally and utterly unquantifiable), then you have a go at me for suggesting that maybe realities beyond reason and logic are possible. So your allowed to postulate about fictional realities, but I'm forbidden to theorise the existence off realities beyond reason? A bit hypocritical if you ask me !
Plus it was you who brought it up the semantic argument in the first place. You thought you be clever and make reference to the fact that omnipotence is an apparent contradiction, ignorant to the fact that there are a few who know other wise.
Originally posted by DigiMark007
Your last paragraph here spells out something I'd like to mention (though I read all of it).You're assuming that "failure" = Can't Lift Rock. What if failure = can't make a rock too big to lift? So sure, an omnipotent being could always lift said rock....or always not, depending on what we're defining as "success". You can't have it both ways....but actually, you can, because you're omnipotent. But not at the same time, thus < Omnipotence.
However, this was your main point:
But that's begging the question just like Superluv was doing earlier. Can they truly make it so that paradox's can't exist? How? You're stating that they can without showing a way, and saying that "their experience of reality is beyond ours" (or something similar) doesn't validate the answer, because again you're simply assuming that somewhere beyond human thought lies the ability to negate paradoxes....which we can't know. And the burden of proof would lie with those who think it can be done, because in terms of our current (meager 😉 ) human understanding there's no way to do it.
And appealing to the definition of omnipotence isn't any better, because it's still begging it's own question for paradoxes...it exists as an idea/word/concept/etc. but can't functionally exist in the field of reality.
Key word: "confined". So no.
The paradox only exists in our minds, due to the limitations set upon by a logistical universe.
Originally posted by DigiMark007How can you postpone a Paradox either it is taking place or it isn't no in between. If the Paradox isn't happening at that time or any subsequent encounter since it keeps going the Paradox can never take place.
I understand how the infinite nature of omnipotence poses a problem for our understanding, and also for the resolution of such paradoxes. But in my mind, all it's doing is postponing the paradox indefinitely...it's not positing a solution to the endeavor (regardless of our criteria for success). So it's not negating the paradox or making it non-existent, it's just entering an infinitely recursive loop by which we can forego the conclusion indefinitely.And if we stick to the strict definition of omnipotence, whereby "anything" is possible, "resolving the paradox" rests within the realm of Everything.
Originally posted by Newjak
How can you postpone a Paradox either it is taking place or it isn't no in between. If the Paradox isn't happening at that time or any subsequent encounter since it keeps going the Paradox can never take place.
I think he means we would still perceive the event as a paradox, if we saw the entity performing the impossible feat, but thats based on the limitations of our perceptions rather than the limitations of the entity.
Originally posted by SupermanluvI think what he is trying to say is that the Paradox will still be at the end and all we are doing is simply waiting for it to happen.
I think he means we would still perceive the event as a paradox, if we saw the entity performing the impossible feat, but thats based on the limitations of our perceptions rather than the limitations of the entity.
But hence is the problem with a Paradox that draws on a conclusion. It can not evolve the term Infinite because there can be no Conclusion. Once you conclude it then it no longer is Infinite no it becomes Finite.
so The Paradox of the Rock can not actually take place because there can be no conclusion to the question being asked and if there is no conclusion than no answer can be given.
It's actually Mathematical Infinity times anything is Infinity, Infinity subtracted from anything is still Infinity and once you try to place intervals on it then you are only looking at a Finite Amount so once again Infinity means no end.
Thus if Infinity exists which must be assumed in Mathematics then there can be no Paradox to Omnipotence.
Originally posted by Newjak
I think what he is trying to say is that the Paradox will still be at the end and all we are doing is simply waiting for it to happen.But hence is the problem with a Paradox that draws on a conclusion. It can not evolve the term Infinite because there can be no Conclusion. Once you conclude it then it no longer is Infinite no it becomes Finite.
so The Paradox of the Rock can not actually take place because there can be no conclusion to the question being asked and if there is no conclusion than no answer can be given.
It's actually Mathematical Infinity times anything is Infinity, Infinity subtracted from anything is still Infinity and once you try to place intervals on it then you are only looking at a Finite Amount so once again Infinity means no end.
Thus if Infinity exists which must be assumed in Mathematics then there can be no Paradox to Omnipotence.
Umm your basically ovrcomplicating what i just stated.
Originally posted by NewjakReally?
I think what he is trying to say is that the Paradox will still be at the end and all we are doing is simply waiting for it to happen.But hence is the problem with a Paradox that draws on a conclusion. It can not evolve the term Infinite because there can be no Conclusion. Once you conclude it then it no longer is Infinite no it becomes Finite.
so The Paradox of the Rock can not actually take place because there can be no conclusion to the question being asked and if there is no conclusion than no answer can be given.
It's actually Mathematical Infinity times anything is Infinity, Infinity subtracted from anything is still Infinity and once you try to place intervals on it then you are only looking at a Finite Amount so once again Infinity means no end.
Thus if Infinity exists which must be assumed in Mathematics then there can be no Paradox to Omnipotence.
So infinity times 0 is still infinity?