Originally posted by SnazzySmurph
Then it's ineffable. 😬Do you even know what that word means?
That doesn't make it ineffable.
Ineffable- incapable of being expressed in words.
The answer is very capable of being expressed in words. There are logical ways that an omnipotent being can create the rock like making a clone of himself or taking away his omnipotence and defying logic but what it really comes down to is NONSENSE IS NONSENSE EVEN WHEN TALKING ABOUT GOD.
It's not ineffable, it's nonsense.
Originally posted by Air LegendIt's nonsense because you're incapable of expressing in words the level to which an Omnipotent being can alter logic.
That doesn't make it ineffable.
Ineffable- incapable of being expressed in words.
The answer is very capable of being expressed in words. There are logical ways that an omnipotent being can create the rock like making a clone of himself or taking away his omnipotence and defying logic but what it really comes down to is NONSENSE IS NONSENSE EVEN WHEN TALKING ABOUT GOD.It's not ineffable, it's nonsense.
Hell, he can alter the world so that 2+2 = Fish. Thusly, wherever there is a group of four, the item is replaced with a fish, or groups of fishes, or math classes, etc.
He can alter the world so that by lifting the rock, he is actually NOT lifting it, and by being capable, he is actually INCAPABLE, but at the same time easily performing the task.
How?
Well, I couldn't tell you. Because, to any of us, it's ineffable. 🙂
Originally posted by masterbruce
no, I never said it was the ONLY way to accomplish it.is there another way to do it without defying logic, perhaps, but I don't know it.
or maybe as you and others have suggested, there is no other LOGICAL way, hence ineffable.
however, I am saying the solution I offered is ONE feasible solution within the bounds of logic for God to accomplish the task, at least that's my opinion.
God creates a rock the size of a mountain, strips himself of his Godly powers and becomes jesus, goes down and fails to shift the mountain.
is he God any more? no. who failed to move the mountain, God or jesus? jesus.
basically omnipotence is the power to create and overcome everything external to the actor, the source of omnipotence.
God cannot kill himself nor pose a challenge to himself beyond his abilities because he would - in so attempting to do - be facing an opponent equally omnipotent (himself).
Originally posted by Creshosk
Actually that "example" is one that I easily shot down in a thread dedicated to the subject of "Omnipotence is a logical paradox".The only hard part I had was getting people to understand the answer to that specific example.
Create a rock that's larger than anything else in the universe. Then you can't lift it because there's nothing to lift it from.
The problem you face is Work = Force x Distance
Assuming you're smaller than the rock:
Lifting it with your hands would be akin to doing a hand stand. Lifting it with energy would be akin to flying from it.
Assuming you're larger than the rock:
With it being the only thing other than yourself. you still face a POV problem of being unable to mesure the distaence the rock has been lifted without the possability of it being you that moved.With no way of mesuring then Force can be infinite, but if the distence is 0 the work is 0. and you have not lifted the rock. Because the big question my solution poses is: What are you lifting it from?
The problem is within the descriptions of the events rather than the events itself.
He succeeds at failing without failing due to the way the words we used are defined. Is he still moving the rock? Yes. Is he lifting it? No.
Hell he could slap that rock and make it spin in place. The specific example is defeated. However the question remains of "Can an omnipotent being do that which he cannot do?" Yes. Otherwise the limits you're placing on him means we're dealing with a being who is bound by logic. And since Logic is not all binding as illogical things and illogical actions still exist in spite of the existence of logic...
It's transcedent. Logic is merely a tool or desciption of the way we human preceive the world. If there is something that defies description such as emotions...(go ahead and try to explain the exact reeling of being happy, or sad) then there are things outside the bounds of logic and therefore not bound to them.
As Smurph pointed out an omnipotent being could rewrite the rules of reality. to defeat other paradoxes.
A circle is only a "circle" because that's the word that we use to describe that which we preceive to be a circle. A Circle exists outside of the word and is not bound by our description of it.
A rose by anyother name would smell as sweet... our descriptions of what the omnipotent being would fall short of being precise. This is why it is ineffable. Because of the limitation on our language. I do not expect you to accept this. If words were adequite to decribe the problem so that you would accept... well then my explination would be different as well then wouldn't it?
Well, take the account of Jesus into consideration. The Scriptures confirm that Christ was both God and Man. In other words, Jesus was fully God and He was fully man. Jesus(God) in a mortal body retained His divinity...unable to sin...atone for the sins of mankind, etc. However, it is clear that God limited Himself in a mortal body. As a human, Christ had the need to eat, drink, sleep, etc. All these things, He had never had the need to do before.
It is apparent that Christ also had limited omniscience. He fortold many end time events as well as events about to befall the Jewish people. He foretold the destruction of Jerusalem by Titus in 70 A.D. However, when asked by the apostles concerning the time of the end...Armageddon, Chirst could not say. He said only the Father in Heaven knows the time and day of the end.
Remember, all of these things were only human limitations due to the human flesh that God robed himself in. Once He returned to Heaven, Christ..the Second member of the Trinity...knew when the time of the end would be...why...because He is God.
The point is...that God can place limits upon Himself and be Omnipotent. On Earth, Christ(God) could not lift any more weight than an average human. So, could God create a rock that He can not lift? Apparently so...if God created all things, then He created the geological process that takes place on Earth. Any given boulder...formed over time would be too heavy for Christ to lift. Than again...lol..if lifting the boulder was part of Christ's plan..in terms of showing the people a miracle..then Christ could draw the power to do so. Basically, however, Christ(God) had normal human strength.
Some may say that God is not omnipotent based on the account of Christ. However, who did Christ pray to in the Garden of Gethsemene? He prayed to His Father in Heaven...the first Person of the Trinity. Keep in mind that the Trinity is actually ONE God....not three Gods.
For any naysayers...the Trinity also is indicated in the Old Testament. In the book of Genesis...the first verse...it states that..."In the beginning, God created" The Hebrew word for God in that verse is Elohim. Elohim is a plural proper noun in Hebrew. Even more interesting, in Hebrew, plural indicates...3 or more...unlike English. In Hebrew, you have singular, dual, and plural. Thus, God(Elohim) means a Triune God in that verse.
What this means is that while Christ was limited in power on Earth...the Father in Heaven, as well as the Holy Spirit was were not limited. God still retained His omnipotence.
This means that God can portray Himself as omnipotent and not omnipotent at the same time(in the human person of Christ Jesus).
Really, all these things are beyond human comprehension. How can ONE God be THREE Persons in ONE. It defies logic...yet, it is so. We are not required to understand it...only accept it. How can a being have no beginning or no end? Again, it is something that finite creatures could never understand. We as humans are limited by the concept of time. Everything has a beginning and an end in OUR minds. However, God transcends time...and that is a concept we can not understand.
Anyway...I'm through..lol
Originally posted by KMC_Drifter
Well, take the account of Jesus into consideration. The Scriptures confirm that Christ was both God and Man. In other words, Jesus was fully God and He was fully man. Jesus(God) in a mortal body retained His divinity...unable to sin...atone for the sins of mankind, etc. However, it is clear that God limited Himself in a mortal body. As a human, Christ had the need to eat, drink, sleep, etc. All these things, He had never had the need to do before.It is apparent that Christ also had limited omniscience. He fortold many end time events as well as events about to befall the Jewish people. He foretold the destruction of Jerusalem by Titus in 70 A.D. However, when asked by the apostles concerning the time of the end...Armageddon, Chirst could not say. He said only the Father in Heaven knows the time and day of the end.
Remember, all of these things were only human limitations due to the human flesh that God robed himself in. Once He returned to Heaven, Christ..the Second member of the Trinity...knew when the time of the end would be...why...because He is God.
The point is...that God can place limits upon Himself and be Omnipotent. On Earth, Christ(God) could not lift any more weight than an average human. So, could God create a rock that He can not lift? Apparently so...if God created all things, then He created the geological process that takes place on Earth. Any given boulder...formed over time would be too heavy for Christ to lift. Than again...lol..if lifting the boulder was part of Christ's plan..in terms of showing the people a miracle..then Christ could draw the power to do so. Basically, however, Christ(God) had normal human strength.
Some may say that God is not omnipotent based on the account of Christ. However, who did Christ pray to in the Garden of Gethsemene? He prayed to His Father in Heaven...the first Person of the Trinity. Keep in mind that the Trinity is actually ONE God....not three Gods.
For any naysayers...the Trinity also is indicated in the Old Testament. In the book of Genesis...the first verse...it states that..."In the beginning, God created" The Hebrew word for God in that verse is Elohim. Elohim is a plural proper noun in Hebrew. Even more interesting, in Hebrew, plural indicates...3 or more...unlike English. In Hebrew, you have singular, dual, and plural. Thus, God(Elohim) means a Triune God in that verse.
What this means is that while Christ was limited in power on Earth...the Father in Heaven, as well as the Holy Spirit was were not limited. God still retained His omnipotence.
This means that God can portray Himself as omnipotent and not omnipotent at the same time(in the human person of Christ Jesus).
Really, all these things are beyond human comprehension. How can ONE God be THREE Persons in ONE. It defies logic...yet, it is so. We are not required to understand it...only accept it. How can a being have no beginning or no end? Again, it is something that finite creatures could never understand. We as humans are limited by the concept of time. Everything has a beginning and an end in OUR minds. However, God transcends time...and that is a concept we can not understand.
Anyway...I'm through..lol
Excellent . What can I say ..
👆 GJ
First of all an omnipotent being is the same as an almighty being ....the two words are not just similar ....they are the same.
Almighty means as it states ....all mighty.
Omnipotent stems from omnipotence, which stems from omni (all) and potence (strength, power, ability) ....all ability, all mighty.
Same thing.
Anyways, going back to the situation.
Can an almighty deity create a rock so heavy that he cannot lift it?
Well, yes.
But how, because the logical issue is that since the deity is omnipotent he can do anything, including creating such a rock. BUT if he creates the rock and is unable to lift it, then that strikes away his omnipotence. HOWEVER if he cannot create said rock, then he is not omnipotent in the first place!
So what gives? How is it capable?
In much the same way that the Bible has God finding a way to reconcile (sinful) man with His (God's perfect) righteousness.
In Christianity we have man falling into sin, and thus automatically been made separate from God since Jehovah is perfectly righteous and no unrighteousness can come before him.
In Jewish tradition what they would do is they would find a goat, lay hands on it and 'put the sin' of the people on the goat, and then they would release the goat into the wilderness to die (with the sin of the people). By the way, that is how the phrase 'scapegoat' came into being ....think about it.
There were also sacrifices of lambs for the same purpose ....the shedding of blood to 'cover' the sin.
Which brings about Christ .....a way for God to reconcile himself with man. But how? Simply come to Earth as both God and Man, live a sinless life, but then take all the sin of man unto himself. The ultimate 'scapegoat.'
Another way of looking at it is how in the book the Chronicles of Narnia that the Lion manages to find a way of breaking the Witches control ....same thing ....being the ultimate sacrifice.
Anyways, for the purposes of the comic book forum, God basically split himself (well, he is 3 in one .....but that is another discussion).
In this comic situation it would probably be along the same lines.
Being omnipotent, he would be able to create a rock so heavy that God couldn't lift it.
Being omnipotent, he would also at the same time be able to lift ANYTHING, including something created to be so heavy that even God couldn't lift it.
Impossible?
Not if you are more than one.
That is one scenario.
The second way of doing it would be to attach some sort of cosmic significance to the rock ....in that if He lifts it all creation apart from him passes away. Since God is love, he would be honor bound never to lift that rock.
Thus, he would (physically) be able to lift it, and with ease, but he would NEVER lift it because of what the implications would be (destruction of all creation).
That would create a situation where an omnipotent God has created an object that he would NEVER lift ....a stone so 'heavy' (due to implications) that he could never lift it.
Which goes back to how i started ....Christ.
The sealed covenant of his death, per the Bible, is something that can NEVER be broken. I believe it is Romans 8:28 that states it as follows:
'For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons,[a] neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.'
It is unbreakable. Not even God himself can go against that. Not because he CANNOT ....but because doing so would be undoing EVERY SINGLE THING that he is.
Anyways: It is possible for an omnipotent being to create/do/say something that even he cannot undo/unsay/uncreate ....lift.
But it would not be a direct situation.
Hope that helps.
Originally posted by Astner
Then my friend we just have to refrase the question in general.
Can God create a rock so heavy that no version of him can lift it?
Read the 2nd part of my post .....the one that starts with 'The second way of doing it would be to attach some sort of cosmic significance.' There I explain how it is possible for an omni-potent being to create something that cannot be lifted, even by the being. I even tied it with the Jewish and Christian perspectives of the blood sacrifice (Jewish in the form of the scapegoat and the slaughtered lamb, and Christian in the form of Christ as the slaughtered lamb) and the inherent significance in bringing man and God together.
Originally posted by Astner
The answer is, "there is no God"
A matter of personal opinion that cannot be effectively debated on a comic-book forum.
Suffice it to say, to those that believe God is real God is real to them. To those that believe God is not real God is not real to them.
It is impossible to convince one side to switch to the other, even if it was on a non-comicbook forum. The fact that this is a comicbook forum only makes something that is nigh-impossible to debate even harder.
Personally I believe there is a God. Many others believe there is no God.
That is fine with me.
I do not push my beliefs upon them (nor mock theirs), and I generally prefer that they do not push theirs on me (or mock mine).
Originally posted by spetznaz
Read the 2nd part of my post .....the one that starts with 'The second way of doing it would be to attach some sort of cosmic significance.' There I explain how it is possible for an omni-potent being to create something that cannot be lifted, even by the being. I even tied it with the Jewish and Christian perspectives of the blood sacrifice (Jewish in the form of the scapegoat and the slaughtered lamb, and Christian in the form of Christ as the slaughtered lamb) and the inherent significance in bringing man and God together.A matter of personal opinion that cannot be effectively debated on a comic-book forum.
Suffice it to say, to those that believe God is real God is real to them. To those that believe God is not real God is not real to them.It is impossible to convince one side to switch to the other, even if it was on a non-comicbook forum. The fact that this is a comicbook forum only makes something that is nigh-impossible to debate even harder.
Personally I believe there is a God. Many others believe there is no God.
That is fine with me.
I do not push my beliefs upon them (nor mock theirs), and I generally prefer that they do not push theirs on me (or mock mine).
Hey spetz. It's been awhile. 🙂
Originally posted by spetznaz
The second way of doing it would be to attach some sort of cosmic significance to the rock ....in that if He lifts it all creation apart from him passes away. Since God is love, he would be honor bound never to lift that rock.
Thus, he would (physically) be able to lift it, and with ease, but he would NEVER lift it because of what the implications would be (destruction of all creation).
That would create a situation where an omnipotent God has created an object that he would NEVER lift ....a stone so 'heavy' (due to implications) that he could never lift it.
However, in this scenario, God could find a way to lift it and find a way for it to not unmake reality. Reality as we know it is like puddy to an omnipotent entity's desire.
Otherwise, God would be using self-induced restrictions upon himself.