Claymore

Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka

Also this generation of Claymore actually seems weaker to me than Clare's so that could also be a plausible cause.

Oh yea, definitely.

Consider that Clare's #5 was a former #2 who was about tied with her #1, and that #4 and #3 were pretty close to Rafaela. Twins aside, you had 3 people who'd make reasonably solid #1s (and #1 Ophie? That just sounds scary 🙂 ).

Audrey and Rachel aren't bad, but they're likely Noel and Sophia types. Audrey maybe a bit better than that... but weaker than Galatea or Irene in their days I'd say.

Clare's generation was stacked. They had clearly fully recovered from the Teresa/Priscilla affair and then some, unlike Clarice's generation where they're still in the process and thus have pretty normal single-digits, Miata excepted.

I'll be starting this series next.

I just read the new Claymore chapter too. I'll put tags since nobody appears to have talked about it.

Spoiler:
Roxainne and Casandra flashback...mostly Roxainne or the duration of the chapter. She apparently has the Claymore version of the Sharingan as her ability and apparently Yoki suppresion rivalling Priscilla's.

Also we find out why Cassandra is called the Dust Eater due to Roxainne seeing her technique. Along with that a good number of high ranking officers seemed to inconspicuously die after Roxainne copied their fighting style.

Overall the "Love and Hate" # 1 is a hot but creepy Claymore.

Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka
I just read the new Claymore chapter too. I'll put tags since nobody appears to have talked about it.

Spoiler:
Roxainne and Casandra flashback...mostly Roxainne or the duration of the chapter. She apparently has the Claymore version of the Sharingan as her ability and apparently Yoki suppresion rivalling Priscilla's.

Also we find out why Cassandra is called the Dust Eater due to Roxainne seeing her technique. Along with that a good number of high ranking officers seemed to inconspicuously die after Roxainne copied their fighting style.

Overall the "Love and Hate" # 1 is a hot but creepy Claymore.

Roxanne can perfectly suppress yoki detection from one person. She aims it, basically. It's a lot more specific than Theresa's ability which was just pure yoki supression all around. I got the impression that it was "perfect" because it doesn't make sense that such a weak technique would be anything but perfect.

It's still similar only it's absolute to one Claymore/Yoma/whatever as you stated.

So are we going to get a flashback on Hysteria or what? I seriously think there should be a follow up chapter whenever flashbacks occur in this series otherwise I feel like a month has been wasted.

Spoiler:
I expected something more esoteric from Cassandra's power, but Roxanne's is great, properly creepy! Cassandra's head-bob and flexibility reminded me a bit of Ophie's rippling sword, only using the whole body to attack from an odd angle and with more power, rather than making the sword act weird.

I dunno if Roxanne's suppression has to be perfect, she only did it when Cassandra was distracted fighting an Awakened, hard to say if it'd hold up in melee against a strong reader, but it's great for spying or ambushes! Her real advantage seems to be synchronizing with her opponent, with the hiding thing just a side benefit.

The eye thing... that means she's a Defensive Type number 1, doesn't it? I think the only one we know.

Cassandra seems like she's probably the weaker #1 here... although that still leaves her uber powerful. Really high in pure stats, she was fighting the three single-digets including Audrey without using her unusual move.

Wow, Miria keeps being badass 🙂

Meh...we've seen Miria before. Now the hot zombie chick taking out Audrey and Rachel(Cassandra IIRC) was pretty cool.

It's also kind of sad that Miria has to use more Yoki to keep up with Hysteria...I thought a longer duel would've commenced. However speaking of Yoki I wonder if any of these zombies are able to awaken.

Cassandra's interesting. She's cute, but lops people's limbs off. No wonder she's shy.

It's also kind of sad that Miria has to use more Yoki to keep up with Hysteria...I thought a longer duel would've commenced.

Well they have been at it for a bit, and Hysteria's technique is just better...and of course, Hysteria *can't* go as high powered as she can without awakening ^^ Momentary Awakening Phantom is Miria-only.

However speaking of Yoki I wonder if any of these zombies are able to awaken.

The possibility was mentioned by the Org people. If any of them do, I'd bet Roxanne.

---

Btw, side topic. If the rebels (with or without the new big batch of recruits) ranked up, how do you think they'd line up? I think with this new move, Miria's passed Galatea as the Number 1.

I think Claymore is stacking up to be quite interesting (it always has been, but it's better than ever).

I like that Raki is an uber badass human. He's top-tier human due to his training with Isley. I also like that he appears to be one of the most level headed characters after the time skip. Meaning, I like Raki's character development.

I miss Claire. 🙁 I want Claire back. 🙁

Lastly, I did not like that everyone as getting chopped to bits. Not cool. That's the only thing I have not liked about the story, thus far. These are supposed to be "awesome" characters but at least Miria is pretty much holding her own.

But...I don't like that Miria, who could almost take on half of the organization's claymores at once, is being treated ALMOST like a punk birch. Not cool, man... NOT COOL! 😠

Lastly, I did not like that everyone as getting chopped to bits. Not cool. That's the only thing I have not liked about the story, thus far. These are supposed to be "awesome" characters but at least Miria is pretty much holding her own.

Well, the new generation, save for Clarice, Miata, and arguably Deitrich and Renee, aren't as 'main characters' as the 7 Ghosts.

We saw how well awesome characters did against Rigaldo in the Northern Campaign, even Jean. Being cool doesn't mean you won't die.

But...I don't like that Miria, who could almost take on half of the organization's claymores at once, is being treated ALMOST like a punk birch. Not cool, man... NOT COOL!

These are number ones, and the best number ones of all time, save for Teresa.

Or to put it another words... Miria's been fighting at the level of a maybe a weak to average #1 before. Now with her new move is she finally moving into the uber leagues.

And consider who she faced in terms of numbers in the assault on the origanization- 3 (Audrey, who was said to be holding back), 5 (Rachel), 9 (Nina). Those were the only single digits in the big brawl. So while there were plenty of numbers, only a few were skilled, and with her speed she could avoid being swarmed.

Compare to what Teresa did- taking out three top-5 Claymores without much problem (and Irene's probably strong for a #2), plus another #1 strength (Prissy), and these three are supposed to be close to *that*.

Originally posted by Q99
Well, the new generation, save for Clarice, Miata, and arguably Deitrich and Renee, aren't as 'main characters' as the 7 Ghosts.

We saw how well awesome characters did against Rigaldo in the Northern Campaign, even Jean. Being cool doesn't mean you won't die.

That's what I thought but I could not remember since Claymore seemed to have taken a hiatus and I hadn't read it in a while (I let it "pile" up.)

Yes, it's been that long.

So, yeah, I recognize, now, that those are the "new guys" not the "7 Ghosts."

Originally posted by Q99
These are number ones, and the best number ones of all time, save for Teresa.

Or to put it another words... Miria's been fighting at the level of a maybe a weak to average #1 before. Now with her new move is she finally moving into the uber leagues.

I disagree.

I think the Miria has long since been above #1 category for quite some time. 4 out of the 7 have, as well.

In other words, I think that how they were portrayed, they (some) have long since surpassed the #1s including Theresa.

Why?

Because they routinely defeated abyssal ones like it was nothing for 7 years and they make other single digits look like punk b*tches.

I know you'll say that #1's are a whole head and shoulders better than other single digits in their generation and these single digits are a whole head and shoulders above the other single digits except for Theresa.

If they were so awesome, then why did they die?

Lastly, they did quite well against Riful when they rescued the #5 (Rachel) and the #3 (Audrey).

Rachel remarked that "the world progressed" since Riful was sleeping in her pit, implying that her current generation is stronger then the previous ones. That's ambiguous, but we don't know how far that progression is...but considering they were able to do decently against an abyssal one until she stopped playing around, that supports my point. All others were slaughtered against any abyssal one...even if they were playing around.

Moving on, to further support my point...

http://www.mangareader.net/485-29381-19/claymore/chapter-70.html

Low-ranking claymore, despite the boast that "this" generation has exceeded the past, can't even see the "7 ghosts" moving.

http://www.mangareader.net/485-29381-21/claymore/chapter-70.html

Riful could not even detect Miria seemingly "flash step" right on to her and was shocked.

http://www.mangareader.net/485-29381-22/claymore/chapter-70.html

Riful could not move fast enough to prevent Miria from saving Rachel.

http://www.mangareader.net/485-29381-23/claymore/chapter-70.html

Riful cannot react to getting her "tenticles" torn to shreds and Audrey "stolen" from her.

http://www.mangareader.net/485-29381-26/claymore/chapter-70.html

An abyssal one's speed is not match even for one using just a single arm.

http://www.mangareader.net/485-29382-8/claymore/chapter-71.html

Riful finds these four to be of such high caliber that she requests they become her ally to protect her from the oncoming enemy she knows will kill her:

Finally, Claire tells Riful that it is not possible for her to cut off her arms and legs:
http://www.mangareader.net/485-29382-26/claymore/chapter-71.html

Granted, Claire did not think she could defeat Riful, but she still thought her evasion skills (while holding another knocked out claymore) were enough to stimey Riful.

The only # "ones" capable of destroying an abyssal one were the anti-abyssal #1s created by the organization and they were a specific set of twins that were basically 'awakened beings' on level with an abyssal one while using the "control" of the other twin...so it's really just another abyssal one fight an abyssal one. I do not think we can say that any #1 could evade Riful. She's particular as an abyssal one because of the speed at which her ribbons can move and in how many different directions/vectors she can attack from.

Having said all that...I don't know why the 7 could not defeat her. I say the 4 could have defeated her. Multiple ribbons came at just one of them with her back turned...and she's definitely not one of the strongest of the 7. So why in the world wouldn't they be able to take her out?

Final point about why I don't like the direction of the #1s being so strong: I'm stupid because only Miria has been able to keep up and she's the only one of the 7 ghosts. This makes my point almost moot. These are supposed to be the best of the best when it comes to the #1s and Miria struggling against them should not be a surprise and I was wrong.

I forget about the others with her NOT being part of the 7 Ghosts and so I retract my previous statements. I feel better about the direction...but still I don't want to see Miria having to stuggle so hard against even a strong #1.

Originally posted by Q99
And consider who she faced in terms of numbers in the assault on the origanization- 3 (Audrey, who was said to be holding back), 5 (Rachel), 9 (Nina). Those were the only single digits in the big brawl. So while there were plenty of numbers, only a few were skilled, and with her speed she could avoid being swarmed.

I did not know there were single digits. Keep in mind, I forgot about much of the details.

That makes me think even more about how lame it is that Miria is getting sent to the ropes if there were not one, not two, but 3 single digits when she assualted the organization.

Originally posted by Q99
Compare to what Teresa did- taking out three top-5 Claymores without much problem (and Irene's probably strong for a #2), plus another #1 strength (Prissy), and these three are supposed to be close to *that*.

Is it Teresa? I always spelled it Theresa.

Anyway, that was a different generation. Claire has since become far stronger than Irene but my estimations. I can't prove it, but I think Claire is even stronger/better than Teresa at this point.

I would say that 4 out of the 7 ghosts could, individually, take on the top 5 single digits from the current organization.

I wasn't aware this was still on-going ill have to start reading it again.

Oh yes, a lot of cool stuff has happened recently.

Dadudemon

I disagree.

I think the Miria has long since been above #1 category for quite some time. 4 out of the 7 have, as well.

In other words, I think that how they were portrayed, they (some) have long since surpassed the #1s including Theresa.

Why?

Because they routinely defeated abyssal ones like it was nothing for 7 years and they make other single digits look like punk b*tches.

They've never really defeated a single Abyssal one. When Helen and Deneve tried, against the already-damaged Isley, they were sure they were going to die. This was specifically noted, that Helen felt like they had no chance at all. They escaped Riful twice, but that's it, merely escaped.

And Teresa flat-out curbstomped an awakened number 2/former #1. Remember when the Awakened Rosemary was taunting her in the flashback and then she just *twisted* her arm off bare-handed? And then, like, went to 10% yoki (not that she needed to even use that much, just to avoid getting *rusty*) and killed her in a moment.

Compare to the 7 Ghost's fight with Bloody Agatha in Rabona (an Awakened #2). They beat her quite solidly of course, but it took a fair bit more time.

Low-ranking claymore, despite the boast that "this" generation has exceeded the past, can't even see the "7 ghosts" moving.

IMO that boast of Rachel and Audrey was wrong ^^ I think most of the time the ranks stayed fairly even in most ranks (save at the very upper levels, which fluctuate a bit more. Clare's gen was stacked due to Rafaela being around and Alicia and Beth throwing things off. Galatea's more like a 2 than a 3, and so on), Dietrich and Nina seemed pretty close to their counterparts from Clare's time, or maybe just a little weaker. So yea, a pair of double digits (probably 20s at that!) get easily knocked out by some effectively low-single digits.

Later Helen and Deneve tried to pull that same knockout move on a single digit (Dietrich, #8) who avoided both their attacks, so stronger current warriors can still hold their own.

Having said all that...I don't know why the 7 could not defeat her. I say the 4 could have defeated her. Multiple ribbons came at just one of them with her back turned...and she's definitely not one of the strongest of the 7. So why in the world wouldn't they be able to take her out?

All combined they probably could.

Miria and Clare are likely #1 and 2 level. Deneve and Helen are certainly top-5 level, and Cynthia and Tabitha probably too. Yuma... ok, she's like an 11, maybe 9 if we're generous, but that's still pretty strong 🙂

I don't know if the four of them right there could (IMO Riful's performance was because she was largely in 'play' mode, and their appearance caught her totally off-guard, she had no idea how strong they were due to them hiding their yoki), Miria did pick a small team for speed for a reason, she didn't *want* to fight an Abyssal One and take casualties, but if the whole team did, yea, they're collectively an incredibly badass squad.

I did not know there were single digits. Keep in mind, I forgot about much of the details.

That makes me think even more about how lame it is that Miria is getting sent to the ropes if there were not one, not two, but 3 single digits when she assualted the organization.

Yea, but we have precedent for a legendary #1 being worth even more single digits than that. And Rachel's move is nigh-useless against Miria specifically since it takes setup time, plus Nina's just a #9 who's good at offense but lacks defense.

So of the single digits there, only Audrey was all that suited to taking her on. And anyone below Nina #9 was just too slow to keep up and do more than make Miria spend time on them.

Now, if Miata was both loyal and there, things might've gotten really, really rough on Miria (since Miata's supposed to be strong enough to kill Galatea), but the ones present weren't enough. ... 'cept for the nameless awakened twins of course, but they obviously did provide a challenge.

Is it Teresa? I always spelled it Theresa.

I think it can be done both ways.

Anyway, that was a different generation. Claire has since become far stronger than Irene but my estimations. I can't prove it, but I think Claire is even stronger/better than Teresa at this point.

Stronger than Irene, I think so (I wonder if she's caught up with Irene's quick sword, which is supposed to be *twice* as strong as when Clare first got it, but even if she hasn't, she has her yoki reading which Irene doesn't). But Ms. Faint Smile really was super-crazy strong, it's easy to forget just how ridiculously broken she is.

Fighting Irene, Sophia, Noel, and an unreleased Priscilla at once, she didn't even have to release Yoki.

I would say that 4 out of the 7 ghosts could, individually, take on the top 5 single digits from the current organization.

Hm... well, are you considering that the top two are Alicia and Beth?

They throws things off, since they're both identically powerful (i.e. extremely), and if they're both there Alicia can Awaken to Abyssal level.

Audrey #3 is the first of the real, normal warriors, and she's pretty good... but obvious Miria beats her solidly (if Audrey's serious, then Miria merely has to try), and Clare does too. Helen or Deneve vs her might be good fights, but those two are probably stronger too.

Miata #4 is a real threat. She's supposed to be #1 strong, just too childlike. So she's the only one who might seriously challenge Miria or Clare.

Rachel #5 is strong, but her setup takes awhile. Good partners with Audrey, which if working together boosts them some, but not enough. Most of the non-Yuma ghosts are at least this level.

And the rest go down from there.

Originally posted by Q99
Oh yes, a lot of cool stuff has happened recently.

They've never really defeated a single Abyssal one. When Helen and Deneve tried, against the already-damaged Isley, they were sure they were going to die. This was specifically noted, that Helen felt like they had no chance at all. They escaped Riful twice, but that's it, merely escaped.

I didn't mean to say "abyssal ones" I meant awakened beings.

I make lots of "name" error placement mistakes. That's my "thing"...kind of like with Ittan in the Naruto thread: I have a really hard time with names/labels.

Originally posted by Q99
And Teresa flat-out curbstomped an awakened number 2/former #1. Remember when the Awakened Rosemary was taunting her in the flashback and then she just *twisted* her arm off bare-handed? And then, like, went to 10% yoki (not that she needed to even use that much, just to avoid getting *rusty*) and killed her in a moment.

She was a former #1, not a current #1. I would put that one as a weak #1.

Originally posted by Q99
Compare to the 7 Ghost's fight with Bloody Agatha in Rabona (an Awakened #2). They beat her quite solidly of course, but it took a fair bit more time.

I would put Rabona on level with Awakened beings. She had the "wild" and powerful size that was on par with Riful.

I think that some high level awakened beings are not very much weaker than abyssal ones. The only requirement, as far as I'm aware, for an abyssal one is having awakened while being a #1.

Originally posted by Q99
IMO that boast of Rachel and Audrey was wrong ^^ I think most of the time the ranks stayed fairly even in most ranks (save at the very upper levels, which fluctuate a bit more. Clare's gen was stacked due to Rafaela being around and Alicia and Beth throwing things off. Galatea's more like a 2 than a 3, and so on), Dietrich and Nina seemed pretty close to their counterparts from Clare's time, or maybe just a little weaker. So yea, a pair of double digits (probably 20s at that!) get easily knocked out by some effectively low-single digits.

Since I think that some of the statements of characters in Naruto are wrong (when you don't), I won't argue this point. I could argue my side quite well, but I feel that taking away your interpretation of the manga is a bit out of the spirit of enjoying the story.

Originally posted by Q99
Later Helen and Deneve tried to pull that same knockout move on a single digit (Dietrich, #8) who avoided both their attacks, so stronger current warriors can still hold their own.

I don't remember that. Scans, please (I'm not being a jerk...I seriously don't remember that).

Originally posted by Q99
All combined they probably could.

I came to this conclusion because they, invidivually, could destroy 3-5 ribbons at once, of hers. I figure that an individual could not take on the full "ribbon" attention of Riful's but 4 of them probably could considering it seemed effortless to cut up 3-5 ribbons so "effort" may have them cutting up 5-10 and 4 would be 40. Riful never showed 40 attacking ribbons at any given time. She was quite angry at Clarie and was attacking with what appeared to be everything she had and she didn't have anymore than 20 ribbons attacking at once.

Originally posted by Q99
Miria and Clare are likely #1 and 2 level. Deneve and Helen are certainly top-5 level, and Cynthia and Tabitha probably too. Yuma... ok, she's like an 11, maybe 9 if we're generous, but that's still pretty strong 🙂

I'd put Miria, Clare, Deneve, Tabitha, and Helen all at various levesl of #1. I agree that there is great variance in the #1's power from generation to generation. So there is a bit more room for placing them as #1s.

Cynthia is more difficult to place. Yuma and Tabitha are def. not #1s.

Originally posted by Q99
I don't know if the four of them right there could (IMO Riful's performance was because she was largely in 'play' mode, and their appearance caught her totally off-guard, she had no idea how strong they were due to them hiding their yoki), Miria did pick a small team for speed for a reason, she didn't *want* to fight an Abyssal One and take casualties, but if the whole team did, yea, they're collectively an incredibly badass squad.

She got quite angry with Clare so I wouldn't say she was playing after that.

But I see their top 4 taking Riful with little to no injuries (meaning, a clean victory, but a difficult one).

Originally posted by Q99
Yea, but we have precedent for a legendary #1 being worth even more single digits than that. And Rachel's move is nigh-useless against Miria specifically since it takes setup time, plus Nina's just a #9 who's good at offense but lacks defense.

So of the single digits there, only Audrey was all that suited to taking her on. And anyone below Nina #9 was just too slow to keep up and do more than make Miria spend time on them.

We clearly saw, though, that even someone who is quite clearly as strong as one of the most powerful #1s in the Organization's history will go down against 30+ clarymores regardless of their ranks. It's just overwhelming.

That is...unless you're Guts from Berserk and then you can take on 100 or more at once. 🙂

Originally posted by Q99
I think it can be done both ways.

It can, but maybe not in the manga. They have "official" romanticized releases, at times.

Originally posted by Q99
Stronger than Irene, I think so (I wonder if she's caught up with Irene's quick sword, which is supposed to be *twice* as strong as when Clare first got it, but even if she hasn't, she has her yoki reading which Irene doesn't). But Ms. Faint Smile really was super-crazy strong, it's easy to forget just how ridiculously broken she is.

By twice as strong, I only took it to mean that it was twice as fast.

She was strong, sure...but I don't think she would have stood even a small chance against Priscilla's fully awakened form. I also don't think Irene was as strong as most other #2s.

Originally posted by Q99
Fighting Irene, Sophia, Noel, and an unreleased Priscilla at once, she didn't even have to release Yoki.

I would say that Priscilla was as strong as some #1s before she "awakened".

I think Sophia and Noel would got down against most of the other top 5s from any other generation. Irene and Priscilla were the only real "challenges" but even then, I think that any of the top four from the 7 ghosts could have held their own against Irene and Priscilla.

I say this because they held their own quite easily (r*ped them) against awakened beings the generally take a squad of four that requires some decently ranked Claymore and always a single digit to take down...and not all of those missions are successful from what we gathered by their conversations against that one male awakened being (towards the beginning of the manga). I mean, really...they were tearing right through the awakened beings like they were nothing where others (even single digits) were having trouble.

We know exactly why this is: massive control over their yoki and partially awakening themselves.

Originally posted by Q99
Hm... well, are you considering that the top two are Alicia and Beth?

No because they are both dead and Alicia is supposedly the strongest #1 in the organization's history. Together, they were designed to take out the abyssal ones. There should be no question, that they are the strongest considering I think that it would take the top 4 from the Seven Ghosts to take out Riful, that I think Alicia and Beth are stronger than the top 4 of the seven ghosts.

Originally posted by Q99
They throws things off, since they're both identically powerful (i.e. extremely), and if they're both there Alicia can Awaken to Abyssal level.

Exactly. This is why I don't include them...and they are dead.

Originally posted by Q99
Audrey #3 is the first of the real, normal warriors, and she's pretty good... but obvious Miria beats her solidly (if Audrey's serious, then Miria merely has to try), and Clare does too. Helen or Deneve vs her might be good fights, but those two are probably stronger too.

Exactly and this is what I was referring to.

Originally posted by Q99
Miata #4 is a real threat. She's supposed to be #1 strong, just too childlike. So she's the only one who might seriously challenge Miria or Clare.

I don't think so because, as you pointed out, the #1s strength varies quite a bit, and being at a minimum of #1 level against 4 warriors that are quite a bit into the #1 level, is not the same thing.

Originally posted by Q99
Rachel #5 is strong, but her setup takes awhile. Good partners with Audrey, which if working together boosts them some, but not enough. Most of the non-Yuma ghosts are at least this level.

Exactly. Against Riful, Miria made them look like they were ranked in the 30s. She did in almost a mere instant what they could not do in quite a few exchanges against Riful.

Originally posted by Q99
And the rest go down from there.

Indeed. The current generation does not seem as strong as previous ones (no pun inteded) outside of Alicia nad Beth lending credence to your claim that Rachel's statement was just an empty boast. But, like I said, I did not want to argue that point unless you want me to do the "dadudemon" thing that irritates people. (hint: lots of posting)

Note to others: It may seem that Q99 and I are doing lots of arguing, but we've hardly argued about anything. Feel free to read our posts to gain more insight into the characters as I think our discussion helps flesh out some of the stuff that isn't quite so apparant.

She was a former #1, not a current #1. I would put that one as a weak #1.

Of course. The impressive part is she awakened and it was still a total curbstomp.

I would put Rabona on level with Awakened beings. She had the "wild" and powerful size that was on par with Riful.

As big, but not nearly as much offense. Also there's a regen difference, Abyssals normally have a ton more energy in the tank for that kind of thing.

Remember that Galatea + Miata was supposed to be enough to beat her, while wounded Isley was > Helen and Deneve.

I think that some high level awakened beings are not very much weaker than abyssal ones. The only requirement, as far as I'm aware, for an abyssal one is having awakened while being a #1.

It's possible for a lower number to be abyssal level, Priscilla, Beth, and Rafaela most obviously, but remember the level of destruction Isley and Luciela caused when they fought, and Luciela's supposed to be the weakest of the three. I don't think Agatha could hang in that kind of fight if she wanted to, I think Isley, Luciela, and by extension Riful, would very solidly defeat her.

And consider Rigaldo- he was super-uber for an awakened, killing two single digits and pretty much beating all of the half-awakeneds before Clare awakened, but he was still no match at all for Isley.

I don't remember that. Scans, please (I'm not being a jerk...I seriously don't remember that).

Sure: http://www.mangafox.com/manga/claymore/v16/c085/19.html

I came to this conclusion because they, invidivually, could destroy 3-5 ribbons at once, of hers. I figure that an individual could not take on the full "ribbon" attention of Riful's but 4 of them probably could considering it seemed effortless to cut up 3-5 ribbons so "effort" may have them cutting up 5-10 and 4 would be 40. Riful never showed 40 attacking ribbons at any given time. She was quite angry at Clarie and was attacking with what appeared to be everything she had and she didn't have anymore than 20 ribbons attacking at once.

Keep in mind that she's also supposed to be quite fast in body (Faster than Renee, who was noted to be a fast runner) yet she was just standing there.

I think a lot of things were throwing Riful off: One, she wanted them captured, so she could use them to awakened Rafaela/Luciela. Two, they had no yoma energy. Three, she absolutely didn't expect them to be there. I don't think that's her all.

You're probably right on the number of ribbons, but keep in mind she can regen lost ones, and when they were cutting they were only doing some damage to the tips, so there's probably very little actual 'damage' done to her there and she could probably keep up that level of fighting for a long, long time.

I'd put Miria, Clare, Deneve, Tabitha, and Helen all at various levesl of #1. I agree that there is great variance in the #1's power from generation to generation. So there is a bit more room for placing them as #1s.

Mm, I don't think Helen and Deneve are quite number 1. We've had a couple people mention that there's quite a gap between Miria/Clare and the rest of the team.

I'd say they're probably around pre-timeskip Galatea level or a bit higher.

She was strong, sure...but I don't think she would have stood even a small chance against Priscilla's fully awakened form. I also don't think Irene was as strong as most other #2s.

That I'll disagree with. Official stat wise, she's really high across the board.

And she handled someone as powerful as Ophelia without releasing yoki (and Ophelia in turn is *way* strong for a #4, much stronger than Sophia #4 of Teresa's generation, and who soloed an awakened single digit. Plus in Miria's flashback was noted as being strong enough to solo awakened #6 too, with the only reason she didn't being because she wanted Miria to do it).

I would say that Priscilla was as strong as some #1s before she "awakened".

I'll not only agree but I'd say she's even well-above-average for a #1.

Exactly. This is why I don't include them...and they are dead.

Well that is one problem with a comparison, the current gen doesn't really have a proper top 5, so you'd have to start comparing lower single digits, who of course won't match up.

They obviously haven't *completely* recovered from losing so many in the North. I don't think even Audrey, the strongest normal Claymore they have (i.e. not twins or Miata), is a match for any of Clare's generation's top 5.

Teresa's generation strikes me as probably more what a normal top 5 would be like (save for Teresa and Priss), and more of a fight but still superior than the current gen. Irene could take Audrey though Audrey could take Sophia or Noel. Sophia or Noel could take Rachel in a fight, or Renee...

Exactly. Against Riful, Miria made them look like they were ranked in the 30s. She did in almost a mere instant what they could not do in quite a few exchanges against Riful.

They did damage too, both of them (Rachel cut some ribbons from the ground, and with Audrey's help did the torso cut. Audrey reflected some ribbons to make them hit her), and Audrey was able to defend from attacks.

Granted, Riful could turn it way up from that level and none of that really 'hurt', but they still did some minor damage.

Originally posted by Q99
Of course. The impressive part is she awakened and it was still a total curbstomp.

👆

Well, from what was stated, Theresa's sensing ability gave her an almost precog ability to predict and react making her an excellent anti-"anything using Yoma" unit. Only against those fully supressing their yoma would be a good match for her (for example, the seven ghosts).

So I consider awakened beings to be at a disadvantage against Theresa. Clare showed us an example against that powerful male awakened being. Clare had a moment where she seemed to have "precog" on par with Theresa so it's kind of an uber power to have against creatures that use Yoma.

This is why I don't put as much stock into Theresa defeating a (weaker) former #1 that had awakened.

However...would you hold it against me (call me biased) if I said that I am a Theresa fanboy? 🙁

She's one of my favs because she was really wise, ultra powerful, and had nice character development for her short life.

I like Clare the best, however. schmoll

Originally posted by Q99
As big, but not nearly as much offense. Also there's a regen difference, Abyssals normally have a ton more energy in the tank for that kind of thing.

Remember that Galatea + Miata was supposed to be enough to beat her, while wounded Isley was > Helen and Deneve.

It's been a while and I quickly read it once many moons ago...

but...

Wasn't Agatha utterly owning every last thing in site?

Agatha is also quite comparable to Riful in both her offense, power, and size. She even has a very similar attack method (ribbons for Riful and rope like ribbons for Agatha).

She is referred to as "fearfully strong" by Galatea, here:

http://www.mangareader.net/485-29386-21/claymore/chapter-75.html

Additionally, Galatea seems to think that the organization would have sent group after group in an attempt to destroy Agatha, here:

http://www.mangareader.net/485-29386-21/claymore/chapter-75.html

Which makes me think that she's quite strong and dreadfully so. Probably the strongest non-abyssal one we've seen. But that should be obvious because she's a #2.

It's also obvious that Miata is quite strong. So strong that she's very deserving of a "potential to be #1" label. She seemed to be giving an "trained" Galatea quite the fight:

http://www.mangareader.net/485-29387-2/claymore/chapter-76.html

Additionally, it's stated that Miata faced many awakened beings without injury until Agatha:

http://www.mangareader.net/485-29388-24/claymore/chapter-77.html

Now is where the fun starts:

http://www.mangareader.net/485-29388-28/claymore/chapter-77.html

No one could "see" Clare's actions...even the uber sensor type Galatea.

Not even Agatha. I would say that Miria is still stronger than Clare.

That's the difference in power between someone who has the power to be a #1 and the Seven Ghosts.

Random aside, Miria is looking very s*xy here:

http://www.mangareader.net/485-29389-10/claymore/chapter-78.html

Lastly, they made short work of an awakened #2 in her true form:

http://www.mangareader.net/485-29389-23/claymore/chapter-78.html

It appeared as almost a "mere instant" to a 47.

IMO, this #2 is among the strongest #2s...strong enough to be a #1 (I am taking liberty in the implications of the statements) for some of the weaker generations' #1s.

Additionally, Clare has gotten so uber awesome that she can do what seems like a flash step to close a gap in an instant, then cut to pieces the arm of Agatha...while only slightly cutting the "hostage's" hair. She then offers to not cut Galat
ea's hair. Absurd accuracy and speed:

http://www.mangareader.net/485-29389-27/claymore/chapter-78.html

Originally posted by Q99
It's possible for a lower number to be abyssal level, Priscilla, Beth, and Rafaela most obviously, but remember the level of destruction Isley and Luciela caused when they fought, and Luciela's supposed to be the weakest of the three. I don't think Agatha could hang in that kind of fight if she wanted to, I think Isley, Luciela, and by extension Riful, would very solidly defeat her.

Well, with Priscilla, she had the potential to be a #1 and she was supposedly uber green to the Organization when she fought Theresa. What that means is that she had the potential to be the strongest #1, by far, after she came into her own (we hear of others rising through the ranks over the years..an equal growth period would make her that much more uber. Compare that to Miata who was a #4).

Originally posted by Q99
And consider Rigaldo- he was super-uber for an awakened, killing two single digits and pretty much beating all of the half-awakeneds before Clare awakened, but he was still no match at all for Isley.

That's a good point. But I always took Isley to be rediculously strong even among Abyssal ones (until Priscilla came along).

Originally posted by Q99
Sure: http://www.mangafox.com/manga/claymore/v16/c085/19.html

She clearly stated to have held back. I don't see that as anything uber other than trying to hold back. Why would they think they needed to hold back against a single digit? Do you see my point? (Like I said...I didn't want to argue this point about the "current generation" but that was one of about 4 pieces of evidence that support the claim of a stronger generation).

Originally posted by Q99
Keep in mind that she's also supposed to be quite fast in body (Faster than Renee, who was noted to be a fast runner) yet she was just standing there.

I think a lot of things were throwing Riful off: One, she wanted them captured, so she could use them to awakened Rafaela/Luciela. Two, they had no yoma energy. Three, she absolutely didn't expect them to be there. I don't think that's her all.

You're probably right on the number of ribbons, but keep in mind she can regen lost ones, and when they were cutting they were only doing some damage to the tips, so there's probably very little actual 'damage' done to her there and she could probably keep up that level of fighting for a long, long time.

Their yoki energy supression (lol, I spelled it "yuma"...freudian slip) energy is part of what makes them such awesome warriors. This is why their top 4 MIGHT be able to take on Riful and win.

And, to that last part, you're partially right. She got exhausted quite quickly against Alicia's attacks. So she's definitely ahead of Tabitha, but not monstrously ahead. (That fits to reason because Tabitha is a strong former #2 and Riful is a former #1).

I would expect a victory coming from them quickly exhausting her regen and then coming into to cut up the body (not with top down swings, but left to right swings). They all have the ability to cut through her as they made short work of her ribbons.

Originally posted by Q99
Mm, I don't think Helen and Deneve are quite number 1. We've had a couple people mention that there's quite a gap between Miria/Clare and the rest of the team.

I'd say they're probably around pre-timeskip Galatea level or a bit higher.

This is part of the reason I was thinking Miria's struggle was so strange.

It was stated that Clare and Miria were significantly stronger than the rest. Based on their abilities, I would put most in a top 5 spot with the top 4 being significantly into the 1 range.

While you put Helen and Deneve as less than one, I put them into a 1 ranking with Clare and Miria being almost better than any other #1s except for the Beth and Alicia range.

Originally posted by Q99
That I'll disagree with. Official stat wise, she's really high across the board.

And she handled someone as powerful as Ophelia without releasing yoki (and Ophelia in turn is *way* strong for a #4, much stronger than Sophia #4 of Teresa's generation, and who soloed an awakened single digit. Plus in Miria's flashback was noted as being strong enough to solo awakened #6 too, with the only reason she didn't being because she wanted Miria to do it).

Note in my post that I said "weaker #2" not a "weaker #3."

I came to that conclusion based on the fact that she's very close to a #3 in overall ability from a later generation:

Galatea: #3

Yoki: A
Agility: B
Strength: B+
Mental: A
Sensing: A+
Leadership: B

"Flash-Sword" Irene: #3

Yoki: A
Agility: A
Strength: B
Mental: A+
Sense: B
Leadership: A

Both are #3s. So I would say she's a strong #3 (in her time) but a weaker #2.

Originally posted by Q99
I'll not only agree but I'd say she's even well-above-average for a #1.

I don't think so. That's not what her stats indicated. Theresa DID get used to her and was able to overcome her. Keep in mind that she did so well against Theresa because she could supress her Yoki so well. That, alone, wasn't enough: she needed the speed and strength to keep up with Theresa.

I would say that in 4 years time, she would have become the strongest #1 in history.

Originally posted by Q99
Well that is one problem with a comparison, the current gen doesn't really have a proper top 5, so you'd have to start comparing lower single digits, who of course won't match up.

They obviously haven't *completely* recovered from losing so many in the North. I don't think even Audrey, the strongest normal Claymore they have (i.e. not twins or Miata), is a match for any of Clare's generation's top 5.

Teresa's generation strikes me as probably more what a normal top 5 would be like (save for Teresa and Priss), and more of a fight but still superior than the current gen. Irene could take Audrey though Audrey could take Sophia or Noel. Sophia or Noel could take Rachel in a fight, or Renee...

I agree with the first two paragraphs. On Theresa's generation, I disagree. I think they were the second strongest generation in history. The first strongest would be the current gen (but deceased) only because of their top two. Their top 2 could, potentially, take out any single top 5 in any generation.

Originally posted by Q99
They did damage too, both of them (Rachel cut some ribbons from the ground, and with Audrey's help did the torso cut. Audrey reflected some ribbons to make them hit her), and Audrey was able to defend from attacks.

But that was a Riful that was literally having a laugh at their expense so she could enjoy the pleasure of the hopelessness of their endeavors (she's a bit...sick).

Still, it's quite awesome that they could even cut her ribbons...and part of the reason I was saying that Rachel wasn't full of sh*t....well, at least not COMPLETELY full of sh*t. 😆

So, you've covered 2 out of my 4 reasons, already.

Originally posted by Q99
Granted, Riful could turn it way up from that level and none of that really 'hurt', but they still did some minor damage.

So we actually agreed on this point, as well.

Hmmm...

It looks like Claymore is a much more amicable topic for us than Naruto. 😆

I came to that conclusion based on the fact that she's very close to a #3 in overall ability from a later generation:

I'd counter that Galatea's a strong number #3, who's only a #3 because of the twins.

Here's Sophia #3
Yoki: B
Agility: C
Muscular Strength: A+
Spirit: B
Perception: B
Leadership: B

As you can see, she's not just below Galatea and Irene, but a good deal below.

And compare Galatea and Irene to Rafaela:
Yoki: A
Agility: A
Muscular Strength: A
Spirit: A
Perception: A
Leadership: C

They're just slightly below her, and she's a 'Soul link' #2 who was said to be about as strong as her sister.

The first strongest would be the current gen (but deceased) only because of their top two. Their top 2 could, potentially, take out any single top 5 in any generation.

I'd say Clare's generation is stronger still. It has the same top 2 (though not as polished as they'd later be), but instead of Audrey, Miata, and Rachel, it has Galatea, Ophelia, and Rafaela.

Here is the stats of the weakest top 5 member of Clare's time (Ophie):
Yoki: A
Agility: A
Muscular Strength: A
Spirit: C
Perception: B+
Leadership: C

My feeling is that after they got Alicia and Beth, and re-activated Rafaela, they didn't have to risk strong single digits very often, and got lucky with prodigies (Ophie's at least as young as Clare, since Priscilla killed her family), so they got choked with higher level people and they effectively have 2 #1s and 3 #2s.

It looks like Claymore is a much more amicable topic for us than Naruto.

Well, it's more strait forward. Abilities tend not to be as funky, aside from Awakened ones, so there's fewer odd interactions. Everyone uses swords. There's two areas where someone can improve, physical stats or yoki powers.

---

On Riful, I feel we never *really* got to see her go all-out. Even when she got frustrated and tried to catch the Ghosts, it was more of a "Darn ants!" thing (underestimating them). We never got to see her take on a strong foe seriously until she faced a completed Alicia with multiple Abyss Feeder backup.

And I will note she did slaughter the Abyss Feeders, who aren't easy foes (she killed something like 10 of them. Even when limited to her human form she offed them easily).