Claymore

Originally posted by Q99
I'd counter that Galatea's a strong number #3, who's only a #3 because of the twins.

Here's Sophia #3
Yoki: B
Agility: C
Muscular Strength: A+
Spirit: B
Perception: B
Leadership: B

As you can see, she's not just below Galatea and Irene, but a good deal below.

And compare Galatea and Irene to Rafaela:
Yoki: A
Agility: A
Muscular Strength: A
Spirit: A
Perception: A
Leadership: C

They're just slightly below her, and she's a 'Soul link' #2 who was said to be about as strong as her sister.

I'd say Clare's generation is stronger still. It has the same top 2 (though not as polished as they'd later be), but instead of Audrey, Miata, and Rachel, it has Galatea, Ophelia, and Rafaela.

Here is the stats of the weakest top 5 member of Clare's time (Ophie):
Yoki: A
Agility: A
Muscular Strength: A
Spirit: C
Perception: B+
Leadership: C

My feeling is that after they got Alicia and Beth, and re-activated Rafaela, they didn't have to risk strong single digits very often, and got lucky with prodigies (Ophie's at least as young as Clare, since Priscilla killed her family), so they got choked with higher level people and they effectively have 2 #1s and 3 #2s.

I think we have strong evidence that Irene is a strong #3, but not a strong #2.

Based on the #2's we actually have ratings on.

I thought we only had two #2 ratings:

Priscilla and Beth:

Priscilla:
Yoki: A+
Agility: A+
Strength: B+
Mental: D
Sense: A+
Leadership: C

Beth:
Yoki: S
Agility: A+
Strength: A+
Mental: A+
Sense: A+
Leadership: E

Beth is listed as the same as Alicia.

So they don't really count.

Other than that, we don't really have legit #2s to use as a comparison because the only other #2s are Beth and Priscilla....which are rediculous to use as comparisons because:

1. Beth is supposed to be stronger than any #1 in history.

2. Priscilla was ultra-green but with ginormous potential.

The only other comparison is to #3s and Irene is a strong #3.

Originally posted by Q99
On Riful, I feel we never *really* got to see her go all-out. Even when she got frustrated and tried to catch the Ghosts, it was more of a "Darn ants!" thing (underestimating them). We never got to see her take on a strong foe seriously until she faced a completed Alicia with multiple Abyss Feeder backup.

And I will note she did slaughter the Abyss Feeders, who aren't easy foes (she killed something like 10 of them. Even when limited to her human form she offed them easily).

I expect that she was trying her absolute hardest against Clare as she was one of the best sensors around while also being a superb warrior.

I suspect that she was the weakest of the big 3.

Based on the #2's we actually have ratings on.

I thought we only had two #2 ratings:

Rafaela and Irene were both #2s. Rafaela with her sister, and Irene under Teresa for almost all of her career.

The only other comparison is to #3s and Irene is a strong #3.

But compared to Sophia #3, she's not just a little ahead, she's practically a whole letter ahead across the board.

And Audrey #3, who we don't have stats for, strikes me as more a Sophia than a Galatea or Irene in performance.

I expect that she was trying her absolute hardest against Clare as she was one of the best sensors around while also being a superb warrior.

Keep in mind she did not know that. Clare was taking suppressors, and she had only met her when she was comparatively weak.

And she wanted Clare alive, so would hold back for that reason too, accidentally killing her would be bad.

I suspect that she was the weakest of the big 3.

Rubel outright said at one point that if the Abyssal ones came into conflict, Luciela was the one most likely to die.

Originally posted by Q99
Rafaela and Irene were both #2s. Rafaela with her sister, and Irene under Teresa for almost all of her career.

But they weren't #2's in the ratings.

Former and present are different.

The ratings are for what they were at the time.

Using them out of context is not logical. You must stick to the ratings if you are going to use the ratings.

Former #2s are not #2s. Irene is a former because a better #2 came along.

Rafaela is quite the special case because she was a #2 and then spent years as an anti-Claymore unit. She had years since her #2 status to improve making her not a logical comparison: she is stronger than almost every single #1 in history.

In fact, she is considered equal in power to the former #1, her sister, furthering my point that she's not really a legit comparison because she's being held back, on purpose, by the organization because she's qutie the special unit this late into the organization's game.

Originally posted by Q99
But compared to Sophia #3, she's not just a little ahead, she's practically a whole letter ahead across the board.

And Audrey #3, who we don't have stats for, strikes me as more a Sophia than a Galatea or Irene in performance.

Isn't it more logical to conclude that she's just a weaker #3 rather than saying that all the #3s and #2s are just really strong?

But, wait, Sophia is not #3, she's a #4. Compared to Galatea, she's fairly in line, as I've shown.

Additionally, it looks like the 1-3 claymores are further ahead in the only two rated generations with the #1s being significantly ahead of the other two...in each generation.

Originally posted by Q99
Keep in mind she did not know that. Clare was taking suppressors, and she had only met her when she was comparatively weak.

And she wanted Clare alive, so would hold back for that reason too, accidentally killing her would be bad.

Was Clare taking suppressors? Or are you talking about pre-time skip?

In which case, yeah, she took them.

Time skip was what I was referring to. I don't remember them taking them.

Also, no, at that point, she was trying to kill Clare for her rejection.

Originally posted by Q99
Rubel outright said at one point that if the Abyssal ones came into conflict, Luciela was the one most likely to die.

That does not seem the case based on feats. Luci seemd to put up quite a horrendous fight against Isley to the point of greatly weakening Isley.

I'd also note that Isley was an Abyssal One for over 70 generations of Claymores.

I would also say that Isley chose Luci because Riful had Retardo Perv Man at her side to lend a hand (he would have at least provided a tad bit of support that would turn the tide in Riful's favor, imo, against Isley.)

Originally posted by dadudemon
But they weren't #2's in the ratings.

Former and present are different.

The ratings are for what they were at the time.

Irene was #2 for years and years, then #3 for a day.

Former #2s are not #2s. Irene is a former because a better #2 came along.

Former means they were at that rank, often for a really long time, and thus may be more representative of their old rank than their new one depending on circumstances, and in the case of people bumped down by Priscilla especially so.

Priscilla had better stats than Rafaela, after all (3 A+s!).

Rafaela is quite the special case because she was a #2 and then spent years as an anti-Claymore unit. She had years since her #2 status to improve making her not a logical comparison: she is stronger than almost every single #1 in history.

In fact, she is considered equal in power to the former #1, her sister, furthering my point that she's not really a legit comparison because she's being held back, on purpose, by the organization because she's qutie the special unit this late into the organization's game.

And I think it says something that her ranks are only a little better than Galatea and Irene.

Personally I doubt she's stronger than almost every #1 in history, just being in an anti-claymore unit for years doesn't make her necessarily majorly improved (especially considering she tossed her old special and developed a new one), but she is number 1 strong.

Isn't it more logical to conclude that she's just a weaker #3 rather than saying that all the #3s and #2s are just really strong?

The other #2s and #3s either have special circumstances, or are blocked from higher rank by absurd obstacles.

But, wait, Sophia is not #3, she's a #4. Compared to Galatea, she's fairly in line, as I've shown.

#3 for years, #4 for a day.

Was Clare taking suppressors? Or are you talking about pre-time skip?

In which case, yeah, she took them.

Time skip was what I was referring to. I don't remember them taking them.

One of the things for the ghosts was they spent so long with their yoka hidden, they no longer showed up at all, just like with suppressors, until they finally released their yoki. Part of why they had to develop yoki-less forms of their moves (Windcutter instead of quicksword, New Phantom).

Clare had no presence, and neither did the others.

Also, no, at that point, she was trying to kill Clare for her rejection.

Still, I think she'd still go for the wound rather than kill, to give herself the option of changing her mind.

Riful sent attacks but it was a pretty brief attempt, and she didn't run after. So Clare didn't have to defend against all that much.

That does not seem the case based on feats. Luci seemd to put up quite a horrendous fight against Isley to the point of greatly weakening Isley.

That fits. They're both stronger than Luciela.

All three are probably pretty close.

I'd also note that Isley was an Abyssal One for over 70 generations of Claymores.

Riful was an Abyssal One starting one generation after him, so almost the same applies. She's the first female #1, remember.

I would also say that Isley chose Luci because Riful had Retardo Perv Man at her side to lend a hand (he would have at least provided a tad bit of support that would turn the tide in Riful's favor, imo, against Isley.)

Ah, but when he made the plan, he had Rigaldo, who's stronger than Dauf.

Originally posted by Q99
Irene was #2 for years and years, then #3 for a day.

That still does not change what I said, though. I've already responded to that thought.

We also do not know how long it took for them to arrive at their destination. Irene's demotion was given via word of mouth straight from herself.

So a "day" is not known, either. They all travel on foot. It could have taken some of them months to reach that spot.

Originally posted by Q99
Former means they were at that rank, often for a really long time, and thus may be more representative of their old rank than their new one depending on circumstances, and in the case of people bumped down by Priscilla especially so.

Priscilla had better stats than Rafaela, after all (3 A+s!).

No, it means that out of all the Claymore, the organization had determined that she was at that level...until someone came along more deserving of that rank. It does not speak, however, of relativity between generations of claymore: that's what the stats do.

Originally posted by Q99
And I think it says something that her ranks are only a little better than Galatea and Irene.

Originally posted by Q99
Personally I doubt she's stronger than almost every #1 in history, just being in an anti-claymore unit for years doesn't make her necessarily majorly improved (especially considering she tossed her old special and developed a new one), but she is number 1 strong.

I do, too. I was wrong. She was A, not A+.

She would be very deserving of a rank 2. She's definitely better than Irene, overall...further proving my point that Irene was a weaker rank 2 but a strong rank 3.

Originally posted by Q99
The other #2s and #3s either have special circumstances, or are blocked from higher rank by absurd obstacles.

Not true.

My point above further proves my point.

Originally posted by Q99
#3 for years, #4 for a day.

Still not known if it was a day or longer. Most likely longer.

Additionally, she was a weak #3 and a moderate #4.

Originally posted by Q99
One of the things for the ghosts was they spent so long with their yoka hidden, they no longer showed up at all, just like with suppressors, until they finally released their yoki. Part of why they had to develop yoki-less forms of their moves (Windcutter instead of quicksword, New Phantom).

Clare had no presence, and neither did the others.

But would would a great strength be "not counted" among their abilities? To me, that only proves my point of how strong they really are.

Originally posted by Q99
Still, I think she'd still go for the wound rather than kill, to give herself the option of changing her mind.

Riful sent attacks but it was a pretty brief attempt, and she didn't run after. So Clare didn't have to defend against all that much.

If she couldn't see them or feel them...that's not true. She was going wild.

She couldn't go after because she could detect their presence.

Originally posted by Q99
All three are probably pretty close.

Based on feats, I'd still put Isley and Luciela as stronger.

Originally posted by Q99
Riful was an Abyssal One starting one generation after him, so almost the same applies. She's the first female #1, remember.

I don't remember that being stated.

She was also very young when she awakened as she's still in her child form, pointing towards Isley having gotten more battle experience.

Riful also stays secluded and Isley appears to travel more. Isley also battled or fought more during his awakened life.

Originally posted by Q99
Ah, but when he made the plan, he had Rigaldo, who's stronger than Dauf.

Wait...how do you know Rigaldo is stronger than Dauf?

Rigaldo is a former #2 and Dauf is a former #3...but Dauf has this uber duber hard skin.

I would agree that Dauph has much slower speed but he also has stupid strong skin.

I would normally give the speedster the edge...unless the other has extreme durability.

Just because one has an overall higher rank, does not mean they could beat the other in a fight.

Case-in-point: Priscilla would probably make short work of Irene on down, despite her greenness to the org. She's much lower, overall, than Irene and I would say Irene has a much faster sword.

That still does not change what I said, though. I've already responded to that thought.

We also do not know how long it took for them to arrive at their destination. Irene's demotion was given via word of mouth straight from herself.

So a "day" is not known, either. They all travel on foot. It could have taken some of them months to reach that spot.

So? Point is she was still #2 for a long time.

You can't talk about what was normal for a rank by tossing out where someone's strength placed them for the majority of their career.

I think my point was better: generally, there is very little variation in the top 3 claymore ranks...unlike 4 and beyond which seem to have much more variation in ranking.

In most of Teresa's time, 3 and 4 had almost identical power.

In Clare's time, 3 through 5 were all very close, and Miria identified the big jump in power as between 5 and her.

But would would a great strength be "not counted" among their abilities? To me, that only proves my point of how strong they really are.

.... I don't know what that has to do with them hiding yoki.

Point is, to everyone they read as putting out no yoki, and thus could not gage their strength without seeing them fight. Only Galatea could sense someone with suppressed power.

Based on feats, I'd still put Isley and Luciela as stronger.

But part of that is we've seen them in an all-out fair throwdown, while Riful didn't really have a similar opportunity, and again we do have Rubel saying "if they fight, Luciela's the one who's probably gonna die," to Rafaela. An outright statement counts for a lot.

Helen treated Isley like much more of a punk than when the ghosts met Riful, too.

I don't remember that being stated.

It was, I think when she was first introduced.

She's also the youngest number 1 ever.

She was also very young when she awakened as she's still in her child form, pointing towards Isley having gotten more battle experience.

Yea, but that's a difference of a few years next to the many many decades both have been awakened (decades? Centuries?). And her young age also means that she awakened pretty fast too.

1st generation of Warriors- Isley.
2nd- Riful
77th- Teresa.

Meaning Luciela was probably 75 or 76.

For the vast majority of the existence of Abyssals, it's just been the two of them sitting around counterbalancing each other.

Riful also stays secluded and Isley appears to travel more. Isley also battled or fought more during his awakened life.

What makes you say that? Isley didn't start moving until Priscilla came to him, and we saw Riful actively hunting for awhile herself.

We've seen Riful be more hands-on than Isley.

Wait...how do you know Rigaldo is stronger than Dauf?

Rigaldo is a former #2 and Dauf is a former #3...but Dauf has this uber duber hard skin.

I would agree that Dauph has much slower speed but he also has stupid strong skin.

I would normally give the speedster the edge...unless the other has extreme durability.

Just because one has an overall higher rank, does not mean they could beat the other in a fight.

True, Dauf has his really hard skin, but Rigaldo had good offense too, he was much stronger than the Claymore as shown when tossing them around. It'd be really, really hard for Dauf to connect with him, and he is strong enough he probably can wear Dauf down.

It'd be a nice battle to see them fight at the least.

Case-in-point: Priscilla would probably make short work of Irene on down, despite her greenness to the org. She's much lower, overall, than Irene and I would say Irene has a much faster sword.

Priscilla's a case when we know she had higher stats and rated against each other we know she came out on top, while with Rigaldo and Dauf we know Rigaldo rated higher.

Originally posted by Q99
You can't talk about what was normal for a rank by tossing out where someone's strength placed them for the majority of their career.

Yes I can because we have more than one example of #2 not being as strong as she is.

In other words, you can't talk about what was normal for a rank by throwing in only one example compared to multiple examples (Keep in mind, Theresa was also a #2) that were stronger.

Originally posted by Q99
In most of Teresa's time, 3 and 4 had almost identical power.

In Clare's time, 3 through 5 were all very close, and Miria identified the big jump in power as between 5 and her.

No, in Theresa's time, 3 greatly outclassed 4 and 5.

Keep in mind that I'm using Theresa, Priscilla, Irene as the top three. True top 3. Why? Because before Theresa...there was her #1...then Irene.

So it would appear that a "true" top 3 is more like 1. Theresa. 2. Prisclla. 3. Irene.

Because we move to the next generation and we get 1. Alicia. 2. Beth. 3. Galatea.

4 is a significant drop in both generations.

#5 in Clare's generation is a very special exception because she was supposed close to power to a #1, her sister. That's fairly obvious since she's "As" across the board (minus leadership).

Originally posted by Q99
.... I don't know what that has to do with them hiding yoki.

Point is, to everyone they read as putting out no yoki, and thus could not gage their strength without seeing them fight. Only Galatea could sense someone with suppressed power.

The first "would" should be a "why".

I'm asking why a great strength is being discounted by you because that's a bit unfair to them for having trained for years to do that.

And this sounds a lot like Dragonball. hmm

Originally posted by Q99
But part of that is we've seen them in an all-out fair throwdown, while Riful didn't really have a similar opportunity, and again we do have Rubel saying "if they fight, Luciela's the one who's probably gonna die," to Rafaela. An outright statement counts for a lot.

Helen treated Isley like much more of a punk than when the ghosts met Riful, too.

And I would rather go on feats than a silver-tongued manipulator.

And this is Helen we're talking about. A Rank #22?

Originally posted by Q99
It was, I think when she was first introduced.

She's also the youngest number 1 ever.

It seems that she would be a weak #1 based off of how young both she was and the organization was.

However, the quote, I believe, just says she was he first #1 of the female only generation. Isley was literally the first generation.

I believe you got the idea that she came right after Isley turned to an abyssal one from the notion that they would have switched over to female only claymores after the loss of Isley.

While sound logic, it is not necessarily true. Many generations could have passed until they perfected/realized females were more stable.

Originally posted by Q99
Yea, but that's a difference of a few years next to the many many decades both have been awakened (decades? Centuries?). And her young age also means that she awakened pretty fast too.

1st generation of Warriors- Isley.
2nd- Riful
77th- Teresa.

Meaning Luciela was probably 75 or 76.

For the vast majority of the existence of Abyssals, it's just been the two of them sitting around counterbalancing each other.

We have no idea how many #1s awakened and were destroyed. For the simple fact that the organization sent something like 30 Claymores after Riful should indicate that they may have been actively destroying abyssal ones.

Originally posted by Q99
What makes you say that? Isley didn't start moving until Priscilla came to him, and we saw Riful actively hunting for awhile herself.

We've seen Riful be more hands-on than Isley.

Because when he awakened and become an abyssal, he took control of the northern lands.

Also, Isley fought Priscilla and lived. Some speculated that he was able to harm her head in a way that caused her to forget. (not forums here)

Originally posted by Q99
True, Dauf has his really hard skin, but Rigaldo had good offense too, he was much stronger than the Claymore as shown when tossing them around. It'd be really, really hard for Dauf to connect with him, and he is strong enough he probably can wear Dauf down.

It'd be a nice battle to see them fight at the least.

Dauf didn't seem to be getting worn down at any point, though. He's slow as fudge. I just don't see Rigaldo's claws doing much when it took uber attacks from the claymore to do significant damage to his flesh.

However, Rigaldo (Rigardo?) didn't seem to be wearing down from his adventures against the claymore, either.

So I don't know the outcome. 🙁

Originally posted by Q99
Priscilla's a case when we know she had higher stats and rated against each other we know she came out on top, while with Rigaldo and Dauf we know Rigaldo rated higher.

Actually, Priscilla didn't have higher stats than Irene, overall. It's a bit irritating that they moved her ahead of Irene because the organization, almost without exception, always puts the overall higher rated warrior ahead of the others. Assign each letter a number.

Make it a higher number with f- being 1.

f- = 1
f = 2
f+ = 3
d- = 4
d = 5
d+ = 6
c- = 7
c = 8
c+ = 9
b- = 10
b = 11
b+ = 12
a- = 13
a = 14
a+ = 15
s- = 16
s = 17
s+ = 18
ss- = 19
ss = 20
ss+ = 21
sss- = 22
sss = 23
sss+ = 24

Then for each category, add it up.

The higher overall number means a higher rating.

Do that for each measured generation. You will see that Priscilla is quite a large exception (there may be others, but I didn't check them all).

We also know Rigaldo rated higher, but they apparently were competitive with each other. Dauf's armor makes him a special case kind of like Theresa's sensing ability makes her quite formidable even against awakened beings...despite the awakened beings being stronger. Clare's quick sword was obviously too fast for Dauf but that still didn't work on him.

Hooray!!! Claymore came out yesterday.

Spoiler:
Miria and Hysteria keep cancelling each other out, dealing blows that vary in intensity. Roxainne gets bored with the twins and pretty much tries to one shot them. They survived and tried to fight her again.

The highlight of this chapter is another flashback concerning Cassandra's past. She starts remembering her last momments and literally reopens her old wounds. Stuff happens from there on too...

may i have a copy of the episodes? avid fan here! 😄

I look forward to the next chapter.

Actually I want this to be weekly serialized. It's better than Bleach and One Piece, at the moment....well, pretty much always.

^ Don't we all? However Claymore is about women...and we all know how Shonen treats women right? At least I think Claymore's a part of Shonen.

I think there was a time where One Piece was better than Claymore although at the momment Claymore trumps both.

Yea, Claymore's shounen fight.

Last week, I was watching Claymore for the first time. This show's pretty awesome.

I saw episode 8 today. It's completely messed up.

New Claymore chapter out. I must say I have a new found respect for Miria although I do wonder why the hell Hysteria is concerned about beauty in a fight?

Roxainne is just as awesome and crazy as ever oh and the highlight:

Spoiler:
All three zombie Claymore begin to awaken right after Cassandra's grand opening scene

Miria is made of badass. She just top herself, after just unveiling a super-badass technique, after a super-badass survival.

As for concern on beauty- it's probably that which lead her to elevate her speed technique to such a high level. She focused on making the most flawless technique (one just like what Miria had dream of), and did.

Indeed. All Hail Miria. Though I wonder how she's going to deal with the situation she's in now.

It's still pretty silly but I can understand that point. Though Miria doesn't need flawless techniques cause she's Miria 🙂

I hope Miria heals both her arms back on. Don't want another armless "quick blade" type running around, do we? 🙂

Yea, reattaching shouldn't be a problem.

Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka
Indeed. All Hail Miria. Though I wonder how she's going to deal with the situation she's in now.

It's still pretty silly but I can understand that point. Though Miria doesn't need flawless techniques cause she's Miria 🙂

Also, to be fair, it's not like Hysteria suddenly becoming inelegant would've saved her ass ^^ It's just she would've never thought of Miria's technique.

--

Btw, Dae- best troll, or best troll ever?

"Oh, I just wanted to see three Abyssal Ones created *and* draw that uberAwakened here. Y'know, just for fun."

Spoiler:
So Daae is trying to draw out Pricsilla then

I agree, Miria was badass this chapter

I still like it that Raki, a mere human, is such a badass.

Rank in, generally, on the Claymore scale. Is he strong enough to be considered a single digit? If so, where would you place him?

If he's not, where would you place him?

My guess he is falls somewhere around 8. He could take on the twins...but they were not trying him as hard as they could: only testing him. Raki is easily better than multiple soldiers at once.

Is he Guts (Berserk) level, though? I don't think so. In fact, based on Guts quick movements with that giant dragon slayer (towards the beginning of the series) I'd say Guts could easily be a #1. His movements would be similar to the "quick sword" and they are depicted as such. So Raki is not at a "Guts" level...yet.

Still, it's great to see a human do so well in a place of super powered beings.