Originally posted by lord xyz
This has been proven to be a false historian, IE they made him up. Sad, how people still don't know that.
Referring to Josephus there - can you provide more information on this? I'm curious - in discussions I have with someone in person, Josephus is who they usually refer to as proof...
Originally posted by Quiero Mota
If you include the New Testament, then the Bible is only about 500 years older. It doesn't mention Mohammed, because he wasn't born, and "allah" means "god" in Arabic, so yeah, it mentions him.
The Bible still predates the Qu'ran (which quotes the Bible). However, the Bible never quotes, mentions, cites, nor alludes to Mecca, Mohammed, or Allah. There cannot exist such Grand-Canyon size contradictions between the Bible and Qu'ran if they were from the same Source. But they are not from the same Source. Allah may mean god (one among hundreds of thousands), but Allah does not mean YHWH (Who is the God of the Bible and Who is second to none).
The Qu'ran egregiously conflicts with the Bible on key (not trivial) points, so there is no way possible that they are from the same Source. Again, Allah is, and has always been associated with an idol: the moon god. The God of the Bible, the Father of Jesus the Christ, the Sender of the Holy Spirit, the First Person of the Triune God (i.e. Father, Son, Holy Spirit) is not, has never been, nor ever will be represented by an idol--unlike the god of the Qu'ran. They are not one and the same.
Originally posted by Quiero Mota
Both books claim to be the book of the god that revealed scripture to Abraham and created Adam, so yeah, it's possible.
No, one claims (i.e. the Qu'ran) and one is (i.e. the Bible). Actually, God (YHWH) never revealed Scripture to Abraham (per se), He revealed His will to him. But what God revealed to Abraham has been recorded as Scripture.
Make sense?
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
The Bible preceded the Koran by thousands of years. The Qu'ran mentions [B]many Biblical persons including Jesus and Mary. However, the Bible never mentions Allah or Mohammed. [/B]
Hundreds, not thousands, but ok. And I never said the Bible mentions Allah or Mohammed...it obviously wouldn't because it historically preceded it. What does that have to do with anything? They're still both Abrahamic religions descendant in the same line.
Originally posted by julibugThere is controversy about that one Josephus paragraph. Many stating that it was a later insertion.
Referring to Josephus there - can you provide more information on this? I'm curious - in discussions I have with someone in person, Josephus is who they usually refer to as proof...
Originally posted by JesusIsAliveIf you actually read that, you will see that it doesn't actually prove Jesus' existance. Nice try though.
"HISTORICAL RECORDSRoman historian Cornelius Tacitus recorded information pertaining to Jesus, thus removing the only supporting source for His existence as being in the New Testament. In 115 A.D., Tactius wrote about the great fire in Rome, "Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberious at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their center and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind. Mockery of every sort was added to their deaths, Covered with the skins of beasts, they were torn by dogs and perished, or were nailed to crosses, or were doomed to the flames and burnt, to serve as a nightly illumination, when daylight had expired. Nero offered his gardens for the spectacle, and was exhibiting a show in the circus, while he mingled with the people in the dress of charioteer or stood aloft on a car. Hence, even for criminals who deserved extreme and exemplary punishment, there arose a feeling of compassion; for it was not, as it seemed, for the public good, but to glut one man's cruelty, that they were being destroyed."
It is believed by some scholars that Tactius gained his information about Christ from official records, perhaps actual reports written by Pilate. Tactius also wrote about the burning of the Jerusalem temple by the Romans in 70 A.D. The Christians are mentioned as a group that were connected with these events. "All we can gather from this reference is that Tactius was also aware of the existence of Christians other than in the context of their presence in Rome," states Habermas. Gaius Suetonius Tranquillas, chief secretary of Emperor Hadrian, wrote, "Because the Jews at Rome caused continuous disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus, he expelled them from the City." Chrestus is a variant spelling of Christ. Suetonius refers to a wave of riots that broke out in a large Jewish community in Rome during the year 49 A.D. As a result, the Jews were banished from the city."
--Harry V. Martin. (1995). Proving the historic Jesus. http://sonic.net/sentinel/naij3.html
Also, there is about 20 -- 30 historians within that time and region, and all there is to offer is...4? Who only very briefly mention this wonderful saviour at best?
Originally posted by julibugWell first I'll admit he wasn't a false historian. I meant to say his reference to Jesus is a forgery. My bad. 😮
Referring to Josephus there - can you provide more information on this? I'm curious - in discussions I have with someone in person, Josephus is who they usually refer to as proof...
http://www.truthbeknown.com/josephus.htm
"...the vast majority of scholars since the early 1800s have said that this quotation is not by Josephus, but rather is a later Christian insertion in his works. In other words, it is a forgery, rejected by scholars." -- Dr. Gordon Stein
http://mwillett.org/atheism/jesusmyth.htm
"Earlier in the work of Josephus there is clear evidence of Christian tampering."
And many more sources.
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
The Bible still predates the Qu'ran (which quotes the Bible). However, the Bible [B]never quotes, mentions, cites, nor alludes to Mecca, Mohammed, or Allah.
[/B]
Your point?
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Allah may mean god (one among hundreds of thousands), but Allah does not mean YHWH (Who is the God of the Bible and Who is second to none).
Yeah, it does actually. "allah" means god, and could be any god. Arabic speaking Christians called the god of the Bible "allah", why? Because they're speaking Arabic. Just like you call him "god" because you're speaking English.
It's really that simple.
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
The Qu'ran egregiously conflicts with the Bible on key (not trivial) points, so there is [b]no way possible that they are from the same Source. Again, Allah is, and has always been associated with an idol: the moon god. The God of the Bible, the Father of Jesus the Christ, the Sender of the Holy Spirit, the First Person of the Triune God (i.e. Father, Son, Holy Spirit) is not, has never been, nor ever will be represented by an idol--unlike the god of the Qu'ran. They are not one and the same. [/B]
Yes they are. You just don't like the idea of it, so you're ignoring a fact.
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
No, one [b]claims (i.e. the Qu'ran) and one is (i.e. the Bible). Actually, God (YHWH) never revealed Scripture to Abraham (per se), He revealed His will to him. But what God revealed to Abraham has been recorded as Scripture.Make sense? [/B]
That's what I meant, revealed his will. The Koran also talks about Noah, Moses and how God (not "allah"😉 created Adam from clay.
Just 2 different views of the same god.
Originally posted by DigiMark007
Hundreds, not thousands, but ok. And I never said the Bible mentions Allah or Mohammed...it obviously wouldn't because it historically preceded it. What does that have to do with anything? They're still both Abrahamic religions descendant in the same line.
Exactly.
Originally posted by lord xyz
I already stated the Bible is false and should not be used as a real sorce.
How does that debunk Jesus saying he's the light of the world? IE THE SUN!
12 is repeated throught the Bible. Why all those references to 12? Unless it's based off of the 12 months, 12 zodiac signs.
Christianity = HEPTAGON CONSPIRACY
Might be? Open your ****ing eyes! The evidence is overwhelming.
So his double talk being confusing means he isn't speaking metaphorical? Oh wait, you just proved me right.
All these coincidences, a little suspicious don't you think?
And what evidence is there of a rapture? That's right, the same bullshit book I am debunking. Nice one Zeal. 😐
Sarcasm I'm sure. Likely because you're afraid to admit it means the sun's rays.
In astrology, it being in the lowest point of the sky (Winter solstice (Dec 22nd (3 days before Dec. 25th))) is known as the "crux" and the symbol for the sun's position, is a cross.
No. It is a title for whoever lead the Christians. Doesn't say Jesus lead the Christians, or Jesus is Christus, or Jesus performed miracles, or Jesus rose from the dead. Just, "the christians were lead by the annointed one". Your argument is a series of delusions, look at the bigger picture -- outside the room of Christianity.
Your arguments are a series of debbiejo thoughts.
Originally posted by lord xyzJosephus is not a false historian. There are corrupted Christian documents yes, but the original form is well known by scholarly opinion. It does not mention his deity but mentions his existence. Therefore, you fail because 90% of scholars on the issue agree with the authenticity of the passage as it was quoted by Agapius of Manbij. Which you probably didn't know about. You also probably haven't considered that a lot of literary analysis has gone into that passage and that it's core was determined to be genuine. We also know that Josephus talks about Jesus's brother James:
This has been proven to be a false historian, IE they made him up. Sad, how people still don't know that.Christus and Chrestus are a title, not a name. They say the christians worshipped someone, but that does not document the actual person. What about a historian saying "There is/was a man who could turn water into wine, and his name was Jesus" that would actual be a documentation of the actual person. But no, there is nothing like that. No documentation of Jesus Christ, you failed.
That does not matter.
It does not matter when the Bible said Moses was born. Moss talked about destroying the Bull(calf) which is Taurus.
And the age of Taurus is 4300BC -- 2150BC http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_Taurus#The_Great_Month_of_Taurus_.28Taurus-Scorpio.29
...The people also don't exist. The fact that they're shepheards strengthens my theory that it's about the age of Aries.
See, you keep claiming these people are real. Where's the proof? From a non-christian point of view, the Bible being astrology makes much more sense.
Being a saviour does have to do with the sun. The sun gives life, light and warmth to the world. Jesus is the sun.
"Aslong as I am in the world, I am [b]the light of the world
" JOHN 9:5
"And go quickly, and tell his disciples (12 disciples, just like there's 12 constellations, foretelling the sun's mythological journey through the year), that he is risen from the dead" MATT 28:6
"And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you" (Just like he does, every morning) JOHN 14:3
"Verily I say unto thee, except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom." JOHN 3:3
"Let us cast off the works of darkness and let us put on the armour of light" ROM 13:12
"They shall see the son coming in the clouds" MARK 13:26
"Jesus came forth, wearing a crown of thorns (or sun rays)" JOHN 19:5Ressurection is the same symbolism. The sun comes back to life (is ressurected (by god)) every morning to save us from the darkness and the cold. Sound familiar? [/B]
"Festus was now dead, and Albinus was but upon the road; so he assembled the sanhedrin of judges, and brought before them the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James, and some others; and when he had formed an accusation against them as breakers of the law, he delivered them to be stoned..."
Yes, it does mention a man existing and his crucification. Read Tacitus again and read Pliny who talks about the Christian worshiping Christ. Read Lucian who says, "the Christians, you know, worship a man to this day". This is called an epic fail.
Yes, it does, you are being ignorant.
This isn't when the Bible says Moses was born. Ramses II was pharaoh then. Ramses II reigned 1279 BC to 1213 BC. Remember me saying that 1500BC was the latest date. Circa 1250BC is what most scholarship says. Which makes you even farther off. Nearly a thousand years off by any means. Thanks for playing that game.
Really? The Jews never existed in ancient times... I'm not even sure what to say to that other than that there is proof in Egypt of the stay of the Semitic people (ie. Jews) in Egypt. So that is a fail. Also, we must still be in the age of Aries then because there are still many shepherds and cattle herders in Israel and worldwide. That is some of the crappiest logic I ever heard.
The proof for the fisherman is that one was Peter. Peter's tomb is well known and lies under the Vatican. That in itself is evidence of Jesus's existence considering Peter is always known as the leader of the early Christians and himself proclaims to be a follower of Jesus in three separate accounts.
Really? English Bible quotes. The Greek word means "manifest". It is only figuratively that it is used to refer to light. More specifically is should be "shine" and generally refers to artificial light. It is very distinct from the word used for sun. If that had been the purpose, the word for sun would actually have been used in some shape or form. It is not.
Also, that is so different by your own admission it hurts. Jesus died one day and was resurrected more than a full day later. A day and half or three Hebrew days later. Also, Jesus was permanently resurrected. By your logic every story of returning to life must a reference to either the seasons of the sun. And while it is occasionally true (and in such cases the person always dies again) it is completely false in the vast majority of cases.
Also, is for the twelve tribes of Israel. Twelve tribes for the twelve sons of Jacob. Again, this is not associated with astronomy.
Originally posted by Zeal Ex Nihilo
Ergo, crucifixion was based not on the word "cross," but on astrology.
And to Lord xyz:
December 25 means absolutely nothing because Christians do not actually hold that Jesus was born then. Actually, nobody does because that would be stupid and ignorant... Kinda like your sources which are thus proven to be stupid.
Originally posted by Nellinator
And to Lord xyz:
December 25 means absolutely nothing because Christians do not actually hold that Jesus was born then. Actually, nobody does because that would be stupid and ignorant... Kinda like your sources which are thus proven to be stupid.
Well, the'res nothign like a belated birthday party just in time for the Satunalia and the winter solstice😂
Originally posted by AllianceHe seemed to know about Pontius Pilate, which makes sense. I'd gander that he had access to reports of crucifixions, but I'm not sure if the Romans kept track of that. I would think they would have in domestic cases, but definitely not in war.
Ah. That makes more sense. I still wonder if Tacitus was told about it or actually had historical reliability.
Really what it boils down to for me is that the whole idea of Jesus never existing originated in the 19th century. If Jesus had never existed the Jews would have simply said: "Umm... he never existed". And there would have been ridicule from the Romans from that angle because they certainly didn't like Christians for those first few centuries. But no one questions his existence. That's kind of an argument from silence, but I think it is still pretty valid. I mean Justin Martyr debated with Trypho the Jew and it never came up. The only issue was the divinity.
And it was no short conversation and touched many issues.
Chapter I.—Introduction.
Chapter II.—Justin describes his studies in philosophy.
Chapter III.—Justin narrates the manner of his conversion.
Chapter IV.—The soul of itself cannot see God.
Chapter V.—The soul is not in its own nature immortal.
Chapter VI.—These things were unknown to Plato and other philosophers.
Chapter VII.—The knowledge of truth to be sought from the prophets alone.
Chapter VIII.—Justin by his colloquy is kindled with love to Christ.
Chapter IX.—The Christians have not believed groundless stories.
Chapter X.—Trypho blames the Christians for this alone—the non-observance of the law.
Chapter XI.—The law abrogated; the New Testament promised and given by God.
Chapter XII.—The Jews violate the eternal law, and interpret ill that of Moses.
Chapter XIII.—Isaiah teaches that sins are forgiven through Christ’s blood.
Chapter XIV.—Righteousness is not placed in Jewish rites, but in the conversion of the heart given in baptism by Christ.
Chapter XV.—In what the true fasting consists.
Chapter XVI.—Circumcision given as a sign, that the Jews might be driven away for their evil deeds done to Christ and the Christians.
Chapter XVII.—The Jews sent persons through the whole earth to spread calumnies on Christians.
Chapter XVIII.—Christians would observe the law, if they did not know why it was instituted.
Chapter XIX.—Circumcision unknown before Abraham. The law was given by Moses on account of the hardness of their hearts.
Chapter XX.—Why choice of meats was prescribed.
Chapter XXI.—Sabbaths were instituted on account of the people’s sins, and not for a work of righteousness.
Chapter XXII.—So also were sacrifices and oblations.
Chapter XXIII.—The opinion of the Jews regarding the law does an injury to God.
Chapter XXIV.—The Christians’ circumcision far more excellent.
Chapter XXV.—The Jews boast in vain that they are sons of Abraham.
Chapter XXVI.—No salvation to the Jews except through Christ.
Chapter XXVII.—Why God taught the same things by the prophets as by Moses.
Chapter XXVIII.—True righteousness is obtained by Christ.
Chapter XXIX.—Christ is useless to those who observe the law.
Chapter XXX.—Christians possess the true righteousness.
Chapter XXXI.—If Christ’s power be now so great, how much greater at the second advent!
Chapter XXXII.—Trypho objecting that Christ is described as glorious by Daniel, Justin distinguishes two advents.
Chapter XXXIII.—Ps. cx. is not spoken of Hezekiah. He proves that Christ was first humble, then shall be glorious.
Chapter XXXIV.—Nor does Ps. lxxii. apply to Solomon, whose faults Christians shudder at.
Chapter XXXV.—Heretics confirm the Catholics in the faith.
Chapter XXXVI.—He proves that Christ is called Lord of Hosts.
Chapter XXXVII.—The same is proved from other Psalms.
Chapter XXXVIII.—It is an annoyance to the Jew that Christ is said to be adored. Justin confirms it, however, from Ps. xlv.
Chapter XXXIX.—The Jews hate the Christians who believe this. How great the distinction is between both!
Chapter XL.—He returns to the Mosaic laws, and proves that they were figures of the things which pertain to Christ.
Chapter XLI.—The oblation of fine flour was a figure of the Eucharist.
Chapter XLII.—The bells on the priest’s robe were a figure of the apostles.
Chapter XLIII.—He concludes that the law had an end in Christ, who was born of the Virgin.
Chapter XLIV.—The Jews in vain promise themselves salvation, which cannot be obtained except through Christ.
Chapter XLV.—Those who were righteous before and under the law shall be saved by Christ.
Chapter XLVI.—Trypho asks whether a man who keeps the law even now will be saved. Justin proves that it contributes nothing to righteousness.
Chapter XLVII.—Justin communicates with Christians who observe the law. Not a few Catholics do otherwise.
Chapter XLVIII.—Before the divinity of Christ is proved, he [Trypho] demands that it be settled that He is Christ.
Chapter XLIX.—To those who object that Elijah has not yet come, he replies that he is the precursor of the first advent.
Chapter L.—It is proved from Isaiah that John is the precursor of Christ.
Chapter LI.—It is proved that this prophecy has been fulfilled.
Chapter LII.—Jacob predicted two advents of Christ.
Chapter LIII.—Jacob predicted that Christ would ride on an ass, and Zechariah confirms it.
Chapter LIV.—What the blood of the grape signifies.
Chapter LV.—Trypho asks that Christ be proved God, but without metaphor. Justin promises to do so.
Chapter LVI.—God who appeared to Moses is distinguished from God the Father.
Chapter LVII.—The Jew objects, why is He said to have eaten, if He be God? Answer of Justin.
Chapter LVIII.—The same is proved from the visions which appeared to Jacob.
Chapter LIX.—God distinct from the Father conversed with Moses.
Chapter LX.—Opinions of the Jews with regard to Him who appeared in the bush.
Chapter LXI—Wisdom is begotten of the Father, as fire from fire.
Chapter LXII.—The words “Let Us make man” agree with the testimony of Proverbs.
Chapter LXIII.—It is proved that this God was incarnate.
Chapter LXIV.—Justin adduces other proofs to the Jew, who denies that he needs this Christ.
Chapter LXV.—The Jew objects that God does not give His glory to another. Justin explains the passage.
Chapter LXVI.—He proves from Isaiah that God was born from a virgin.
Chapter LXVII.—Trypho compares Jesus with Perseus; and would prefer [to say] that He was elected [to be Christ] on account of observance of the law. Justin speaks of the law as formerly.
Chapter LXVIII.—He complains of the obstinacy of Trypho; he answers his objection; he convicts the Jews of bad faith.
Chapter LXIX.—The devil, since he emulates the truth, has invented fables about Bacchus, Hercules, and Æsculapius.
Chapter LXX.—So also the mysteries of Mithras are distorted from the prophecies of Daniel and Isaiah.
Chapter LXXI.—The Jews reject the interpretation of the LXX., from which, moreover, they have taken away some passages.
Chapter LXXII.—Passages have been removed by the Jews from Esdras and Jeremiah.
Chapter LXXIII.—[The words] “From the wood” have been cut out of Ps. xcvi.
Chapter LXXIV.—The beginning of Ps. xcvi. is attributed to the Father [by Trypho]. But [it refers] to Christ by these words: “Tell ye among the nations that the Lord,” etc.
Chapter LXXV.—It is proved that Jesus was the name of God in the book of Exodus.
Chapter LXXVI.—From other passages the same majesty and government of Christ are proved.
Chapter LXXVII.—He returns to explain the prophecy of Isaiah.
Chapter LXXVIII.—He proves that this prophecy harmonizes with Christ alone, from what is afterwards written.
Chapter LXXIX.—He proves against Trypho that the wicked angels have revolted from God.
Chapter LXXX.—The opinion of Justin with regard to the reign of a thousand years. Several Catholics reject it.
Chapter LXXXI.—He endeavours to prove this opinion from Isaiah and the Apocalypse.
Chapter LXXXII.—The prophetical gifts of the Jews were transferred to the Christians.
Chapter LXXXIII.—It is proved that the Psalm, “The Lord said to My Lord,” etc., does not suit Hezekiah.
Chapter LXXXIV.—That prophecy, “Behold, a virgin,” etc., suits Christ alone.
Chapter LXXXV.—He proves that Christ is the Lord of Hosts from Ps. xxiv., and from his authority over demons.
Chapter LXXXVI.—There are various figures in the Old Testament of the wood of the cross by which Christ reigned.
Chapter LXXXVII.—Trypho maintains in objection these words: “And shall rest on Him,” etc. They are explained by Justin.
Chapter LXXXVIII.—Christ has not received the Holy Spirit on account of poverty.
Chapter LXXXIX.—The cross alone is offensive to Trypho on account of the curse, yet it proves that Jesus is Christ.
Chapter XC.—The stretched-out hands of Moses signified beforehand the cross.
Chapter XCI.—The cross was foretold in the blessings of Joseph, and in the serpent that was lifted up.
Chapter XCII.—Unless the scriptures be understood through God’s great grace, God will not appear to have taught always the same righteousness.
Chapter XCIII.—The same kind of righteousness is bestowed on all. Christ comprehends it in two precepts.
Chapter XCIV.—In what sense he who hangs on a tree is cursed.
Chapter XCV.—Christ took upon Himself the curse due to us.
Chapter XCVI.—That curse was a prediction of the things which the Jews would do.
Chapter XCVII.—Other predictions of the cross of Christ.
Chapter XCVIII.—Predictions of Christ in Ps. xxii.
Chapter XCIX.—In the commencement of the Psalm are Christ’s dying words.
Chapter C.—In what sense Christ is [called] Jacob, and Israel, and Son of Man.
Chapter CI.—Christ refers all things to the Father
Chapter CII.—The prediction of the events which happened to Christ when He was born. Why God permitted it.
Chapter CIII.—The Pharisees are the bulls: the roaring lion is Herod or the devil.
Chapter CIV.—Circumstances of Christ’s death are predicted in this Psalm.
Chapter CV.—The Psalm also predicts the crucifixion and the subject of the last prayers of Christ on Earth.
Chapter CVI.—Christ’s resurrection is foretold in the conclusion of the Psalm.
Chapter CVII.—The same is taught from the history of Jonah.
Chapter CVIII.—The resurrection of Christ did not convert the Jews. But through the whole world they have sent men to accuse Christ.
Chapter CIX.—The conversion of the Gentiles has been predicted by Micah.
Chapter CX.—A portion of the prophecy already fulfilled in the Christians: the rest shall be fulfilled at the second advent.
Chapter CXI.—The two advents were signified by the two goats. Other figures of the first advent, in which the Gentiles are freed by the blood of Christ.
Chapter CXII.—The Jews expound these signs jejunely and feebly, and take up their attention only with insignificant matters.
Chapter CXIII.—Joshua was a figure of Christ.
Chapter CXIV.—Some rules for discerning what is said about Christ. The circumcision of the Jews is very different from that which Christians receive.
Chapter CXV.—Prediction about the Christians in Zechariah. The malignant way which the Jews have in disputations.
Chapter CXVI.—It is shown how this prophecy suits the Christians.
Chapter CXVII.—Malachi’s prophecy concerning the sacrifices of the Christians. It cannot be taken as referring to the prayers of Jews of the dispersion.
Chapter CXVIII.—He exhorts to repentance before Christ comes; in whom Christians, since they believe, are far more religious than Jews.
Chapter CXIX.—Christians are the holy people promised to Abraham. They have been called like Abraham.
Chapter CXX.—Christians were promised to Isaac, Jacob, and Judah.
Chapter CXXI.—From the fact that the Gentiles believe in Jesus, it is evident that He is Christ.
Chapter CXXII.—The Jews understand this of the proselytes without reason.
Chapter CXXIII.—Ridiculous interpretations of the Jews. Christians are the true Israel.
Chapter CXXIV.—Christians are the sons of God.
Chapter CXXV.—He explains what force the word Israel has, and how it suits Christ.
Chapter CXXVI.—The various names of Christ according to both natures. It is shown that He is God, and appeared to the patriarchs.
Chapter CXXVII.—These passages of Scripture do not apply to the Father, but to the Word.
Chapter CXXVIII.—The Word is sent not as an inanimate power, but as a person begotten of the Father’s substance.
Chapter CXXIX.—That is confirmed from other passages of Scripture.
Chapter CXXX.—He returns to the conversion of the Gentiles, and shows that it was foretold.
Chapter CXXXI.—How much more faithful to God the Gentiles are who are converted to Christ than the Jews.
Chapter CXXXII.—How great the power was of the name of Jesus in the Old Testament.
Chapter CXXXIII.—The hard-heartedness of the Jews, for whom the Christians pray.
Chapter CXXXIV.—The marriages of Jacob are a figure of the Church.
Chapter CXXXV.—Christ is king of Israel, and Christians are the Israelitic race.
Chapter CXXXVI.—The Jews, in rejecting Christ, rejected God who sent him.
Chapter CXXXVII.—He exhorts the Jews to be converted.
Chapter CXXXVIII.—Noah is a figure of Christ, who has regenerated us by water, and faith, and wood: [i.e., the cross.]
Chapter CXXXIX.—The blessings, and also the curse, pronounced by Noah were prophecies of the future.
Chapter CXL.—In Christ all are free. The Jews hope for salvation in vain because they are sons of Abraham.
Chapter CXLI.—Free-will in men and angels.
Chapter CXLII.—The Jews return thanks, and leave Justin.
Originally posted by Nellinator
He seemed to know about Pontius Pilate, which makes sense. I'd gander that he had access to reports of crucifixions, but I'm not sure if the Romans kept track of that. I would think they would have in domestic cases, but definitely not in war.Really what it boils down to for me is that the whole idea of Jesus never existing originated in the 19th century. If Jesus had never existed the Jews would have simply said: "Umm... he never existed". And there would have been ridicule from the Romans from that angle because they certainly didn't like Christians for those first few centuries. But no one questions his existence. That's kind of an argument from silence, but I think it is still pretty valid. I mean Justin Martyr debated with Trypho the Jew and it never came up. The only issue was the divinity.
Needless Roman numerals aside, I don't think anyone questions the existence of Jesus. But even Justin Martyr, whom you mentioned, questioned his divinity on the grounds that his stories bore a striking resemblance to other myths circulating the area.
Originally posted by DigiMark007Sadly some few do. Those similarities are very tame when compared the to the falsehoods conjured up nowadays. Generally, I'd merely say that religions tend to have similar themes. Though, perhaps he questioned similarities in rituals. I'm not entirely sure, I haven't read anything about his doubts as of yet.
Needless Roman numerals aside, I don't think anyone questions the existence of Jesus. But even Justin Martyr, whom you mentioned, questioned his divinity on the grounds that his stories bore a striking resemblance to other myths circulating the area.