we do seem to get somewhere now... and I thank you for addressing it with respect, I appreciate that 🙂
let's get in on with it then
Originally posted by Schecter
i answered it. many times. vader was a villain in the story from the middle of ep3 to the end of ep5. i presented my case that its arguable that his role of villain began to diminish at the end of ep5, but thats an interpretation. interpretations on subjective matters cannot be proven with finallity, but i will address this later. (disappointing that i must)
yes you have said from the get go that he was a villain in ep4 and ep5, and yes, it is subject to interpretation, but you said he's not a villain in ep6, and that's where I began the discussion. it was this post rite here:
Originally posted by Schecter
in story-telling, yes. the villain is not the one with whom you should feel any sympathy toward or have any connection with. that is why i disagree with people calling vader a villain. while he certainly was in eps4 and 5, his character took a sympathetic turn in rotj, imho eliminating that title even before he turned. it all depends on how the writer/directer presents the character. the villain is to be booed and hissed at, while the anti hero is meant to have a limited emotional connection to the audience.
you are saying his tittle as villain it's eliminated because he took a sympathetic turn in ROTJ. and that's where I disagree. both in account to the story, and as people's perception of the character in general, i'll get back to that later.
this is also a contradicting point you make later on in your future posts ... but more on that later..
Originally posted by Schecter
vader was consumed by the darkside. he was taken over by evil, and as such had no remorse for his actions. he had a glimmer of compassion in his lamentation upon learning that he aided in killed his wife, but after that he was a remorseless killing machine with no compassion. this began to change when he gained a sense of pride and caring for his son. while his motives were still rooted in evil, he still never sought to kill luke. regardless of his plans he grew attached to luke.
if we're going to the PT, then I'll tell you this: he was indeed consumed by the dark side, and consumed by evil (let's not argue about how much evil, just evil), but he was a killing machine BEFORE Padme died, not afterwards. he did killed all those children, he felt somewhat of a remorse for killing them,he was crying, but he still killed them (and some more older jedis apparently, though he's only seen confronting 3 in the hologram 😬 ) but he does so for a purpose, a reason, a reason still present after Padme's death. He did so because the jedi were a threath to "his" new empire.... and even before Padme died he began showing traits typical of the sith when he proposed padme to join him and overthrow the emperor. He aided in killing his wife, because he felt betrayed by her when he saw Obiwan. he reacted by choking her, that will be the equivalent of hitting her (domestic violence), enhanced with force powers.
I didnt want to bring the PT into discussion, but it will be relevant to the point i'm trying to make: he didnt killed luke because he wanted him to join him, be in charge of the empire, overthrow the emperor. he could not do those things on his own, because he could not confront Palpatine head on without losing... the emperor needed Luke because he was younger, he was anakin in his prime (talking about age). Vader was render weak after battling obiwan, his full potential as a sith could not be reached because of these limitations, Luke however could. It was this way of thinking that stopped Vader from killing luke early on, not care for him as a loving father... it is obvious that if luke would not be turned, he will be killed, Vader himself says so.
The father-son connection was pivotal for Anakin's redemption, and Vader's ultimate undoing, he was a reason for his inner confrontation, but until the moment Palpatine tries to kill Luke, Vader would still have killed luke if luke hadnt beaten him in battle. were Luke to be dead, he would have sought to turn Leia instead... Luke almost turned to the dark side, but stopped and made the right decision, the decision Anakin couldnt make.
Originally posted by Schecter
i addressed this and you simply repeated the point. i have no idea why im continuing this. i guess im a glutton for punishment. since you only have to read my last post, in which i quote and respond to this statement, ill leave it to you...
I addressed this point yet again because you denied saying that I contradicted myself.
you quote what I wrote, and then say I made a contradiction, when in fact I never did...
let's forget about evilness, and tell me: why did you said I contradicted myself?... better put: why did you think I made a contradiction?
you however, have contradicted yourself, and I have proved it without writing anything more than quoting your posts...
prove why I contradicted myself...
Originally posted by Schecter
no, i dont agree. vader condoned and supported their actions in eps 4 and 5. your implication seems to be that he was oblivious and obtuse to their actions and intentions. he clearly was not. if you are simply asking who's directly committed acts were more evil, i would say palpatine's. tarkin was likely following direct orders from palpatine, though that doesnt absolve him at all. im just saying that palpatine was pulling all the strings, so he was in essense the committer of said acts imho, much like hitler in WW2. this is beside the point though. the point i was simply making was that vader was not a villain in the absolute sense in ep6. he was *this is important* the 'wild card'. lucas keeps us in suspense throughout the film, keeping us guessing. will he follow through with these apparent breakthroughs? is luke correct? is ben correct?
I never implied he was oblivious or obtuse to their doings. I even said that the fact that he didnt do those things, doesnt mean, that were he alone and on on top of all things, he would not do the same actions. My point is that you seem to judge a villain buy his evilness, and yet confirm that Vader was a Villain in ep4 and ep5, when in fact there were characters doing worst things that what he did.
even more so you say that vader wasnt a villain in the absolute sense in ep6.... now with that I could say that you are implying that he was still a villain in ep6... I said I could, and for what you'll write later, you will say I'm wrong to assumed you imply that, so I just let that one go
Originally posted by Schecter
ep6 is the inner struggle between anakin and vader. when we see vader conflicted, it is because anakin is struggling to make sense of things...sort of stirring from a long slumber before he finally wakes up. even at the end the character of vader seems to resign entirely as he informs luke "the emperor will show you the true nature of the force. HE is your master now". this of course after we see one of a few flickers of hope as vader (rather anakin) pauses and reflects upon his son's achievements, and is obviously tempted my lukes plea to join him...to join the side of good. it seems that it is no longer evil which
compells him to enable the emporer, but sheer hopelessness and despair. he has essentially given up on his own ambitions to be sith master at this point. the twisted and evil side of anakin is now rendered completely impotent and pathetic.
I can agree with you on that, but I dont understand when you say this happens. I, like i said earlier, say this happens when Palpatine it's killing Luke ( I mean anakin's triumph over Vader), not a moment earlier, he still had every intention of killing luke if he was not turn. But he hoped Luke will join him, he hoped luke will turn to the dark side, that's why he compelled luke to allow the dark side in him. He lost hope for his redemption, that's why "he says its too late for him".
Originally posted by Schecter
no, for about the 12th time, i rule him out as villain throughout the entire film. he is the wild card, considering his multiple personallity disorder and struggle between said personallities. an internal battleground of both good and evil.i think i see the problem in our communication. remember that a story is ever evolving and organic. roles change. anakin was a hero, then conflicted (wild card), then a villain, then once again conflicted (wild card), then a hero. there was an intentional process which lucas emplyed in his story telling to illustrate this. (sorry to include PT, but even without the concept stays the same, but is then rather a linear transition from evil to wild card to hero. i just wanted to express the concept of an evolving character since you're implying an absolute role.
I'm not implying an absolute role. I'm simply saying that a villain can still be a villain when we feel somewhat of a conection towards them. we can have sympathy towards them, most of the time whe pity them. It is not mandatory to blindly hate them. You say his status as a villain gets eliminated when he takes a sympathetic turn in ROTJ, and you say this happens for the entire film, you even say that' its debatable that this happens at the end of ep5. yes we feel sympathetic towards him at the end of ESB, but that doesnt erased or diminished his Villain status.
and yes, this is where we have a problem. a story is always evolving, but vader's entire presence is that of a villain, it only gets eliminated once anakin is able to defeat him.
Vader actions are the worst in ESB, but:
Do you think his behaviour would have been different if we knew Vader was luke's father before he himself tells him?
would we have ruled him out as a villain because we have sympathy towards him?
... he kills more people ruthlessly than he ever did before (in the OT), but that doesnt change the fact that he was Luke's father, the same can apply to ep4. we dont feel any kind of sympathy towards him in ep4 (in ep 5 as well, not until the truth comes out) because we dont know that yet, not until he reveals it. he's connection with luke however does deepens once he tells luke that he is father, but that doesnt change his actions.
he let Luke go from Cloud City, but he didnt do so because of love for his son. he made a mistake, He thought Luke couldnt escape, because The Falcon wasnt able to make the jump to hyperspace. he made sure of that. he thought that he would be able to catch them once he was aboard the Executor, but he underestimated luke's friends and they were able to escape...
Originally posted by Schecter
since like myself, im sure you also experienced the story for the first time from eps 4 through 6, i only suggest this to ask you this: did you honestly feel a shred of sympathy for vader in ep 4? be honest.
I did experience the OT before the PT,I didnt felt sympathy towards vader in ep4, but I already explained why that is. we dont know the true, and we are not supposed to, that would killed one of the biggest moment in film history. like I asked you, would knowing the true, and have sympathy towards him, ruled him out as a villain?
Originally posted by Schecter
it does neither, imho. palpatine's presense does not affect his status as villain. this is another communication gap which needs resolution.i never implied that one cause the other. i only stated that by introducing palpatine as chief antagonist in ep6, lucas is able to alter vader's role without affecting the integrity of the good-evil structure in his method of story telling. this way, there is still an iredeemable character for us to boo and hiss at, a role which vader filled nicely in eps 4 and 5.
here you are saying that his presence doesnt affect him as villain, huh?
again: are you implying that he is still a villain?
it's true palpatine its the chief antagonist, but it's vader still a villain or not?
that's where we differ, and that's why we argue.
I know you are going to say that Im putting words in your mouth, or maybe that's not what you mean. And I can go with that. Im just asking to clarify that last bit.
Originally posted by Schecter
the rest is you trying to avoid blatant reality and defend your friend. i will not address it. stick to the debate or i will simply ignore you.
not it isnt. and I'm certainly not avoiding reality. I'm proving why I didnt put words in your mouth, just by quoting your own posts...I know I'm redundant here.. but if you are choosing to ignore that, so be it.
and I also ask you to consider to stop being rude, and like I said, thank you for that
Originally posted by Schecter
as far as not being able to prove something which subjective, one must be delusional to believe they could accomplish this. i am amazed at your implication that i 'lost' because i submit that my interpretation is disputable.you need to grasp an understanding of the reality of a debate on subjective topics. it cannot be won. it could perhaps be lost due to lack of validity in evidence, but never EVER won.
both you and I wont reached a conclusion to this feud, however I was simply stating that:
you're saying that his not longer the villain, but then followed with this:
"it ends in confusion and despair and many many unanswered questions, right down to the very concept of who is the villain. we know palps is for sure. but what about vader? as i said to RJ from the beginning, its arguable. never did i say its provable"
ok... again is it arguable that Vader is the villain?
"then he declared victory since i could not prove an interpretation of a subjective fable with finality, when i never claimed to be able to. but whatever. moving along..."
i wont comment on that anymore, but it is pretty obvious to anyone who read post what actually happened in your argument.
Originally posted by Schecter
i will place faith in you to not continue placing words in my mouth and implications which were never made. (these actions are time-wasting and insulting) a debate of this nature is an exchange of ideas. you are attempting to prove me wrong and win. this is why you are failing.
once again: I never put words in your mouth, and I proved that.
I know that a debate can never be won, but a conclusion can be reached.
I could continue with this, as I know you also could, and i know there will be people who agrees with you, just as there will be people who agrees with me. even if we drop this, that wont change those peoples opinions, and thus the debate would never be truly won.
*sighs*
tell you what, let me ask you one final question... better yet, forget anything I asked you before and tell me this:
I know you disagree with me when saying Vader wasnt a villain in Ep6. but does that erases or cancel the fact that he was a villain in the story?
better yet: does that mean he's no longer a villain for what happens in one movie?
yes, you said he was the villain in ep4 and ep5, but I mean this as a whole... do you not consider him a villain at all? or not?
I do. I do because, like I said before, many people consider him the greatest villain ever, not just me. he's an iconic figure, that's something that just can be taken away, or ignored. he is and will still be remembered as Luke's villain father. and everytime anything it's taken into a Star Wars context (TV or movies, or any other media), he will be seen as the villain. the bad guy will be Darth Vader... it always happens, and it will continue to do so 😬
and to not further clogged thi thread... and if you decide to make a rebuttal to my replies (I mean the question i made before the *sigh* ...let's do so by PM
Re: Greatest fictional villain of all time?
Originally posted by JacopeXTo prove my case: He is the Creator of evil with God like Powers. He once killed the Elder God with his bare hands, and was defeated by 8 Ultimate heroes.....IT TOOK 8! 😂
Fire.Hands down! 😉
Fire up against any of these villains? Don't make me laugh! 😉