Originally posted by Schecter
followed by the contradiction:*sigh* the entire ep6 illustrated the process of his redemption, from the start. in fact one could argue that he ceased his status as chief antagonist by allowing luke to escape at the end of ep5, even after he had refused his offer to become a sith.
vader WAS evil, as was stated over and over in the films. he ceased to be anakin skywalker and became darth vader....twisted and evil...etc etc. ep6 was the story of the return of anakin.
"my son is with them"
"are you sure"
"i have felt him, my master"
"strange that i have not. i wonder if your feelings on this matter are clear lord vader?"
clearly anakin is in the process of retaking his soul and destroying darth vader. the conduit for which being his caring for his son. if his intentions were evil at that point, palpatine would have sensed it, as he senses the dark side in all beings. "i can feel your anger"
his character in the film is far too confused, sympathetic, and conflicted to be a villain. eps 4 and 5, yes. ep6, no.
no EU nonesense here. just strictly canon and by the screenplay
for someone who says someone will come at you with a dodge question, you yourself seem to be dodging every question addressed to you
NOT ONCE in my posts I have said Vader was the biggest EVIL SOB that was ever created, not once. I have never contradicted myself and If I have, someone else (besides you) PLEASE POINT THAT OUT
there's something I forgot to write: I say that Vader isn't "all" that evil, that was directed to Vathu's post
I wrote that because Palpy get's pick because he was more evil than Vader, and that's true... but it doesnt make palpy the greatest, just the most evil...
It started with the topic at hand, greatest fictional villain. You said:
1 -"you disagree when people call Vader a villain"
I ask: WHY? why do you disagree? IS he not a villain anymore?
you say because he wasn't evil enough, bad enough, he was confused and had conflicting feelings within himself... all of those are good points, but it still doesn't rule him out as villain, not in any way it erases his actions
you say he wasn't because Palpatine was there being the greatest evil, and following his every command, NOT KILLING A FAILING OFFICER, and rather threatening him with the emperor's wrath
well in that case: you sir are again WRONG.
why? let me answer you with your own post
Originally posted by Schecter
i said he was a villain in eps 4 and 5. reading is fundamental
well he was the villain in ep5, and what about ep4... he was the villain too.....
but aren't you forgetting about someone else?
what about TARKIN? was he not a villain too?, was he not even more villainous than Vader? wasn't Tarkin "holding Vader's leash"?
Vader was the villain, but was under Tarkin orders, he was to do what Tarkin tell him to do (kinda like with the emperor wouldn't you agree?)
Tarkin tells Vader to release the officer he was choking, and Vader does so while saying "As you wish". how is that any different than threatening and officer instead of killing him.
You could say, without making a mistake that Tarkin was the true villain in ep4, he was after all, who send Vader to fetch the plans from the Tantive, he was the one to told Vader to squeeze a confession out of Leia, he was who used the Death Star to destroy Alderaan... it wasn't Vader who make all those decisions, but that doesnt mean Vader wouldn't have done the same thing as well, were he all alone, and not under the command of Tarkin... but all that doesnt affect Vader Status as a Villain
Palpatine presence doesnt affect Vader status as a villain, it just lessens it.
Ep6 was the story of Anakins return... hell, Star Wars was the story of the Chosen one, who, despite Vader existence, always was Anakin... not Luke.. Vader WASN'T Anakin... he was someone else, the villain, the bad one, the evil one... but he wasn't all that evil.
ObiWan says "he's twisted and evil" and that's true, but he's not as evil as he's make out to be, it was Obiwan take on it, his point of view.
Both him and Yoda forgot about Anakin, didn't believe in the prophecy anymore, they thought it had to be someone else (like Luke) who would confront and destroy both Palpatine and Vader... but it turns out Anakin it's the one who destroys Vader and the Emperor after all, with Luke's help.
Vader wasn't all that evil, because he wasn't evil for the pure joy of being evil. He had a purpose, a reason to justify his action, he wanted Peace for his empire, and both Luke and the rebellion stand against that. he wanted control over politicians, so someone powerful would decide was best for the entire galaxy, he thought that person was Palpatine, and that's why he join him, and that's why he wanted to overthrow him, because he felt he could do better than Palpatine could ever had... that and also he was a fully fledged Sith now, so envy was in there too
So it is Anakin who gets redemption, who comes back and destroy evil, who's sympathetic... not Vader
Vader was the villain...and he's always been.
2.- Now with the "Vader let Luke escape" thing:
even though I DO agree with you saying he let him escape, I DON'T agree with your intended explanation
Vader didn't let him escape (when he didn't order the Falcon to be destroy) out of compassion for his son, not in the slightest
He let him escape at that moment because he wasn't through with him, he still needed to try to convince him to turn to the dark side and join Palpatine (or that's what Palpatine needed to believe), or better yet, join him so they both could destroy Palapatine.
It wasn't because he felt sorry for him, He felt their connection, but Vader's twisted intentions is what permitted him to escape.
there was no use for him dead, and that's pretty obvious, he needed to be turn or he will be killed, but there certainly wasn't time enough to fully convince Luke to join him. He couldn't just kill him in that precise moment.
He needed Luke, he could not possible over power Palpatine on his own, that's pretty obvious. He never broke his promise to turn Luke to the dark side, or kill him
furthermore proof that Vader was still a Villain, he use everything on his disposal to turn Luke, use his friends a bate, tell him that he will make Leia turn to the dark side (something that he would have done if Luke were to have died), he need to anger Luke so he will be turn... and that's something Anakin wouldn't have done. And even after Luke so adamantly said he wont be turned, he had every intention of killing him, because "if he wont be turned, he will be killed"
what triggered Anakin's decision (not Vader's) to help Luke and destroy Palpy, was Luke's compassion towards him, and seeing his son in pain and danger, not something else.
Vader sensing his son doesnt mean he cares for him as a loving father, he felt him, because after all they had a connection. His feelings in the matter weren't clear just because of a Father-Son bond, but also because he wanted Luke to help him defeat Palpatine
and now, I DON'T know if you an RJ have a history, but calling him a clown the moment he addresses you its totally uncalled for, not to mention that it makes you look immature and troll-like...
there's no need for name calling....
and I hope you don't end up insulting me as well
Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
oh...Victor Von Doom...right. 😕😆 Not my area of expertise, sorry.
Who killed superman then? 😕
Originally posted by S_D_J
😆
I'm sorry, but how bad as Doom is or could be, people (outside of fanboys and comic geeks) would only remember him by Pretty Boy McMahon, "the dumb dude who couldn't get the hot chick, even though he had money, and wanted even more money"
I know Doom, I now he's evil, but when talking mainstream, Vader kicks his shiny butt
and it was Doomsday who killed Superman... as Violent2Dope said it