Greatest fictional villain of all time?

Originally posted by S_D_J
for someone who says someone will come at you with a dodge question, you yourself seem to be dodging every question addressed to you

i never dodged a single question. if i perhaps accidentally missed one then you can repost it. i would be happy to answer.

Originally posted by S_D_J
NOT ONCE in my posts I have said Vader was the biggest EVIL SOB that was ever created, not once. I have never contradicted myself and If I have, someone else (besides you) PLEASE POINT THAT OUT

the contradiction was:

"Vader isnt that evil, he was just confused"

how can the greatest villain of all time not be 'that evil'? the sole property of any villain in a story is evil. must i stoop to quoting the definition of 'villain' or could we just agree there?

Originally posted by S_D_J
there's something I forgot to write: I say that Vader isn't "all" that evil, that was directed to Vathu's post
I wrote that because Palpy get's pick because he was more evil than Vader, and that's true... but it doesnt make palpy the greatest, just the most evil...

you have trouble clarifying and organising your thoughts, i can see.
the issues of 'greatest villain' and 'most evil villain' are indeed seperate. however a villain is one which appears to be irredeamable. the antagonist. scum. the one you want to see stopped, jailed, beaten, killed, etc. throughout ep6 the audience is never inspired to hate vader. rather he intrigues us with his own conflict.

as the story goes on we are filled with more and more of a hope that he will redeem himself, as we clearly see from that palpatine is the true antagonist. it starts when we see vader resign his power and rage to the emperor "i hope so for your sake. the emporer is not as forgiving as i am". through luke's compassion expressed to ben "there is still good in him", to vader's obvious conflict with the emporer "i wonder if your feelings on this matter are clear lord vader", george lucas turns our hatred for him into sympathy and hope long before vader throws palps into the reactor core.

the point i was attempting to express to RJ was that the seeds for this conflict of feelings among the audience were planted at the end of ep5. we learn that vader is lukes father. we see that he clearly does not want him killed, even after he refuses to turn. we even feel shocked and betrayed that ben would not tell luke the truth about his father. it ends in confusion and despair and many many unanswered questions, right down to the very concept of who is the villain. we know palps is for sure. but what about vader? as i said to RJ from the beginning, its arguable. never did i say its provable. then he declared victory since i could not prove an interpetation of a subjective fable with finality, when i never claimed to be able to. but whatever. moving along...

Originally posted by S_D_J
It started with the topic at hand, greatest fictional villain. You said:

1 -"you disagree when people call Vader a villain"
I ask: WHY? why do you disagree? IS he not a villain anymore?

you say because he wasn't evil enough, bad enough, he was confused and had conflicting feelings within himself... all of those are good points, but it still doesn't rule him out as villain, not in any way it erases his actions

you are misquoting me. for someone who kicks and cries about being misquoted (when you were not) this is quite hypocritical and immature. really doesnt fair well for one who wishes to instruct me on how to post.

i stated that the status of 'villain' depends on how the character is presented by the screenplay. in fact i stated this many times and you have chosen to ignore it. at no point in ep6 is vader presented in the same light as eps 4&5. he is a weak, pathetic, sad figure. he isnt a threat. we WANT to see luke try to talk sense into him. if he was a villain at that point we would only want to see his evil reign be put to an abrupt end.

Originally posted by S_D_J
you say he wasn't because Palpatine was there being the greatest evil, and following his every command, NOT KILLING A FAILING OFFICER, and rather threatening him with the emperor's wrath

again, i never said that. you clearly need to put words in my mouth to feel validated in your opinion which you seem to think is indisputable fact. again, for the fifth time, vader's evil reign had come to an end. he was no longer a direct threat. even palpatine told him to wait on the command ship (in other words he was telling him to sit tight and shut up since he was then useless)

Originally posted by S_D_J
well in that case: you sir are again WRONG.
why? let me answer you with your own post

well he was the villain in ep5, and what about ep4... he was the villain too.....
but aren't you forgetting about someone else?

what about TARKIN? was he not a villain too?, was he not even more villainous than Vader? wasn't Tarkin "holding Vader's leash"?
Vader was the villain, but was under Tarkin orders, he was to do what Tarkin tell him to do (kinda like with the emperor wouldn't you agree?)
Tarkin tells Vader to release the officer he was choking, and Vader does so while saying "As you wish". how is that any different than threatening and officer instead of killing him.

again you are being misleading and deceptive/dodgy by misquoting me. for the sixth time, vader's power was resigned. he was no longer a threat. a chill did not go up our spine at the site of him. we didnt think "MY GOD SOMEBODY KILL HIM!". we were conflicted as to what his fate would be, and what we wanted it to be.

and what ABOUT tarkin? when did i ever say there had tbut one villain? you are clearly arguing your own set of imaginary points. a straw man debate. perhaps i should just leave and you can parade around with your victory flag of ignorance like RJ?

Originally posted by S_D_J
You could say, without making a mistake that Tarkin was the true villain in ep4, he was after all, who send Vader to fetch the plans from the Tantive, he was the one to told Vader to squeeze a confession out of Leia, he was who used the Death Star to destroy Alderaan... it wasn't Vader who make all those decisions, but that doesnt mean Vader wouldn't have done the same thing as well, were he all alone, and not under the command of Tarkin... but all that doesnt affect Vader Status as a Villain

Palpatine presence doesnt affect Vader status as a villain, it just lessens it..

for the last frikin time: i stated that since palpatine was entered in ep6 as the chief antagonist, the story was ripe to evolve vader's character. the story NEEDS a chief antagonist. in ep 6 vader was replaced by palpatine. PALPATINE put the chill in our spines and commanded our utter contempt. HE was the scum of the universe (and his many minions, of course). vader was presented, intentionally by mr. lucas, and being conflicted and worthy of sympathy and hope for redemption. never did i try to say that palpatine somehow cancelled out vader. simply that his presense enabled vader's status as villain to fade, while still having a structure of good-evil. without palps it would have been good and not-so-good. in other words, a boring conclusion.

the rest will have to wait for another time. i suspect its all redundant, but ill give it the benefit of the doubt. however its 2:30 a.m. and im spent.

Originally posted by S_D_J

and now, I DON'T know if you an RJ have a history, but calling him a clown the moment he addresses you its totally uncalled for, not to mention that it makes you look immature and troll-like...

Blub blub...blub blub....blub blub....your ship is sinking....

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
[B]Blub blub...blub blub....blub blub....your ship is sinking....
*stupid page-filling troll picture*

what an intelligent addition to your argument.
im sure your friend will overlook this trolling as he has previously done.
pathetic

Originally posted by Schecter
what an intelligent addition to your argument.
im sure your friend will overlook this trolling as he has previously done.
pathetic

greatest? probably THE JOKER. from the batman comics.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
greatest? probably THE JOKER. from the batman comics.

Originally posted by Schecter
i never dodged a single question. if i perhaps accidentally missed one then you can repost it. i would be happy to answer.

Good, but it seems you are responding to the one I ask, even though we still dont agree

the Question it's simple: do you think Vader's action in one of the movies will change the fact that he was a Villain????

that was the question, just as simple, but...

Originally posted by Schecter
NOT ONCE in my posts I have said that you said that Vader was the biggest EVIL SOB that was ever created, not once

the contradiction was:

"Vader isnt that evil, he was just confused"

how can the greatest villain of all time not be 'that evil'? the sole property of any villain in a story is evil. must i stoop to quoting the definition of 'villain' or could we just agree there?

you said I contradicted myself, when saying after all I wrote, I supposedly followed with a Contradiction: ""Vader isnt that evil, he was just confused"

Vader's Evilness what's never in question, neither did I ever say he was the biggest evil villain that ever existed. its the fact that he was a Villain, even though Palpatine was much worse than Vader could be...
Read the bit about Obiwan and Yoda

even though he was twisted and evil, his not as evil as he's make out to be, and not nearly as evil as Palpatine. He had a reason behind his doing, it was not pure wickedness that drove him to do what he did. What he resort to do to get what he wanted is what makes him evil.
now about the movies (I'm talking about the OT, not the PT): he does not do things that are more evil than what Palpatine or even Tarkin did, would you not agree on that?.

even though he was not as evil as other evil/villainous characters in the movie, he is still a Villain. you seem to agree on that, but completely ruled him out because of what happens at THE END of the last movie

I kinda address the same topic when talking about Tarkin, but we'll get to that later

Originally posted by Schecter
you have trouble clarifying and organising your thoughts, i can see.

I dont... YOU, however, DO ....just continue reading and I'll prove it

Originally posted by Schecter

the issues of 'greatest villain' and 'most evil villain' are indeed seperate.

something else we can agree on

Originally posted by Schecter

however a villain is one which appears to be irredeemable. the antagonist. scum. the one you want to see stopped, jailed, beaten, killed, etc. throughout ep6 the audience is never inspired to hate vader. rather he intrigues us with his own conflict.

as the story goes on we are filled with more and more of a hope that he will redeem himself, as we clearly see from that palpatine is the true antagonist. it starts when we see vader resign his power and rage to the emperor "i hope so for your sake. the emporer is not as forgiving as i am". through luke's compassion expressed to ben "there is still good in him", to vader's obvious conflict with the emporer "i wonder if your feelings on this matter are clear lord vader", george lucas turns our hatred for him into sympathy and hope long before vader throws palps into the reactor core.

A villain IS NOT someone who appears to be irredeemable. There are lots of villain, who at the end turn tables (they do, and sometimes it appears like they do) and end up helping in some way.... they get redemption. but that doesn't erased their actions, they just get.. redemption is just as simple.... and most of the time they're acting, only to get the upper hand...

just like THERE ARE HEROES who end up going the wrong way.

You can feel sympathetic towards a Villain, its not as rare as you make it look (or as you want it to look). most of the time you know the villain back story, you know what drives them to do what they do, you understand them (although you dont agree with them)... most of the time you pity a villain or may feel sympathy towards them, because sometimes it's not entirely they fault.

as you make it out it's you are supposed to blindly hate the villain, not have the slightest pity, compassion or sympathy towards them, and that's where and why, you get it wrong

Originally posted by Schecter

the point i was attempting to express to RJ was that the seeds for this conflict of feelings among the audience were planted at the end of ep5. we learn that vader is lukes father. we see that he clearly does not want him killed, even after he refuses to turn. we even feel shocked and betrayed that ben would not tell luke the truth about his father. it ends in confusion and despair and many many unanswered questions, right down to the very concept of who is the villain. we know palps is for sure. but what about vader? as i said to RJ from the beginning, its arguable. never did i say its provable. then he declared victory since i could not prove an interpetation of a subjective fable with finality, when i never claimed to be able to. but whatever. moving along...

that's one fine and valid point you make. And you make it very well, without resorting to insult

but, to my opinion, you contradict yourself, not with what you're saying right there, but also with what you wrote afterwards

that's what I was talking about earlier: you finally know Vader's motivation, a bit of his story, you could not help but to feel somewhat of sympathy towards him. But, are you supposed to forgive all of vader's doings?, rule him out as a villain, even though he still resorts to bad actions in the next movie. It's true Palpatine was the greatest evil, the greatest villain, but it still doesn't make Vader a Non-Villain, like i said, it lessens his evil, just that

about RJ: he never addressed or implied anything about Vader's Villainy or Evilness, he asked you to prove how Vader let Luke escape. You however try to explain why he did such thing by saying he wasn't a villain and care for his son. As i see it: it was you who brought the subject to your discussion (yours and RJ's), not him.
And you are saying :

"as i said to RJ from the beginning, its arguable. never did i say its provable. then he declared victory since i could not prove an interpetation of a subjective fable with finality, when i never claimed to be able to..."

so, by this your saying you cant prove it???
you can't prove Vader let Luke escape, and also, you can prove Vader isnt a Villain?

Well, for someone who still argues back, you just made a huge mistake.
You lost the discussion right there

but..

Originally posted by Schecter

... whatever. moving along...

Originally posted by Schecter

you are misquoting me. for someone who kicks and cries about being misquoted (when you were not) this is quite hypocritical and immature. really doesn't fair well for one who wishes to instruct me on how to post.
[/QU[/B]

I was misquoted by you... You are the one who throws a rant later on about being misquoted (we'll get to that later)

I'm not in any way teaching you on how to post. I'm simply saying that there's no need to resort to name calling when you don't want to talk to someone. You're starting a fight, rather than defend your thoughts.
of course, you are not obliged in any way to defend your opinion, you can simply choose to ignore it. You call him a clown twice, you are starting the fight right there, like a troll, when there's no need for it.
what it does do however, it's lower the respect and credibility people may have towards you. Again, you are not obliged to comply with my, or anyone else's, opinion. But you're obliged to respect fellow poster by not insulting them.

Originally posted by Schecter

i stated that the status of 'villain' depends on how the character is presented by the screenplay. in fact i stated this many times and you have chosen to ignore it. at no point in ep6 is vader presented in the same light as eps 4&5. he is a weak, pathetic, sad figure. he isnt a threat. we WANT to see luke try to talk sense into him. if he was a villain at that point we would only want to see his evil reign be put to an abrupt end.

you have chosen to ignore it. He's not supposed to be presented in the same light as he was in previous films, that much it's clear. It just shades some light in Vader character. Like many villains, that info it's supposed to make you pity, and understand the Villain, even more so, it its done so you can see how the hero it's the better person, his compassion, that he still has hope and convince himself (and yourself)that, despite the villain's action, he can forgive him. You like the hero even more. we want the good guy to win, and in someway save the bad guy as well (it happens many times)...or does it really bother you that villain may understand how wrong his actions were, and ask for forgiveness.

do you have no faith in people? do you think that no one deserves a second chance? I'm just asking

I'm going to continue with my Reply by double posting, since I'm unable to do so now, because I exceeded the post maximum length...

...continuing previous post

now here's the rant about being misquoted...

Originally posted by Schecter

again, i never said that. you clearly need to put words in my mouth to feel validated in your opinion which you seem to think is indisputable fact. again, for the fifth time, vader's evil reign had come to an end. he was no longer a direct threat. even palpatine told him to wait on the command ship (in other words he was telling him to sit tight and shut up since he was then useless)

do you even read the posts you wrote, and the post you are writing, before making a rebuttal?

look at these:

Originally posted by Schecter

for the entire length of RotJ vader was not a villain, but an impotent, exhausted and pathetic character. right from the get go his power is resigned as he takes no disciplinary action on a failing commander, but rather warns him of the emporer's wrath. [I] in RotJ it is palpatine who is the villain and antagonist. NOT vader. its blatantly obvious

that's what I meant when I wrote:

" you say he wasn't because Palpatine was there being the greatest evil, and following his every command, NOT KILLING A FAILING OFFICER, and rather threatening him with the emperor's wrath"

should I continue...well... you did that for me when you, again, wrote this (in the same post when you said I put words in your mouth):

Originally posted by Schecter
as the story goes on we are filled with more and more of a hope that he will redeem himself, as we clearly see from that palpatine is the true antagonist. it starts when we see vader resign his power and rage to the emperor "i hope so for your sake. the emporer is not as forgiving as i am".

Can you deny that? I don't think so

and he was Useless?... how can you say that?... Palpatine needed Vader to turn Luke to the dark side. without him, Palpy hold no advantage whatsoever over Luke....*sighs*

moving along...

Originally posted by Schecter

again you are being misleading and deceptive/dodgy by misquoting me. for the sixth time, vader's power was resigned. he was no longer a threat. a chill did not go up our spine at the site of him. we didnt think "MY GOD SOMEBODY KILL HIM!". we were conflicted as to what his fate would be, and what we wanted it to be.

and what ABOUT tarkin? when did i ever say there had tbut one villain? you are clearly arguing your own set of imaginary points. a straw man debate. perhaps i should just leave and you can parade around with your victory flag of ignorance like RJ?

Ohh! this one takes the cake:

not only are you blatantly ignoring proof that you are mistaken, but you chose to ignore it altogether, and again resort to insults than to make a sound rebuttal... way to go!

you're saying that Vader status as villain gets undermined because of Palpatine presence... and now you say there can be more than one villain... you completely miss the point.
Tarkin was more villainous than Vader in the first movie, Vader what's no different then a pet when it comes to his unquestionable allegiance to Tarkin, doing what he is told, without ever questioned it... and yet he was a Villain, more important in the story than Tarkin, but both of them were villain nonetheless.
what's different in the first movie, however, it's the fact that you don't' know anything about Vader's past (other than he killed Luke's father, giving reason enough for luke to go against him, besides the Empire). that's why you don't feel sympathy towards him, you're not supposed to yet

You choose facts that suits your opinions, but chose not to acknowledge something that jeopardizes your posts... way to go, man, way to go

like with what's next...

Originally posted by Schecter

for the last frikin time: i stated that since palpatine was entered in ep6 as the chief antagonist, the story was ripe to evolve vader's character. the story NEEDS a chief antagonist. in ep 6 vader was replaced by palpatine. PALPATINE put the chill in our spines and commanded our utter contempt. HE was the scum of the universe (and his many minions, of course). vader was presented, intentionally by mr. lucas, and being conflicted and worthy of sympathy and hope for redemption. never did i try to say that palpatine somehow cancelled out vader. simply that his presense enabled vader's status as villain to fade, while still having a structure of good-evil. without palps it would have been good and not-so-good. in other words, a boring conclusion.

Palpatine its there because he was the Empire, the one to whom Vader responded to... if Vader were to be killed, it would have been a great loss to Palpatine, but he still could resort to other things to get his goal, like he did when he rise to power.

Palpatine was the main, chief antagonist of Star Wars, no argument there, he was more evil than Vader could have been, no argument there.

...but it still doesn't change the fact that Vader was A Villain (the greatest villain IMO). Indeed vader status as villain faded when he killed the Emperor, but NOT a moment earlier.
Even-more so, It was Anakin who both destroyed Vader and The Emperor.
Vader was all that was bad and wrong within Anakin, and he finally gets redemption when he kills the Emperor, it was in that moment when Darth Vader ceases to exist, and Anakin comes back

Originally posted by Schecter

the rest will have to wait for another time. i suspect its all redundant, but ill give it the benefit of the doubt. however its 2:30 a.m. and im spent.

I'm eagerly awaiting for a sound rebuttal... and please, stop insults like these:

Originally posted by Schecter

as for your rightous appraisal of my posting, save it since i don't care. if you choose to overlook the insults hurled by your friend and at the same time damn me, i could care less. so put a sock in it and lets discuss the topic isntead of playing schoolyard politics. its really ghey and nobody but you and your buddy over there really gives a shit.

I don't intend for you to care for what I say, but I ask you to stop being rude.

I'm not choosing to overlook anyone's insults. Rogue_Jedi HAS NOT INSULT YOU IN THIS THREAD, NOT EVEN ONCE, you however call him a ****tard and a clown, and you tell him to STFU.
he hasnt said anything insulting to you in the entire thread, all he's said it's "your battleship is sinking", that's it.

like I say I don't know what your problem with RJ is, but you shouldn't carry discussion from threads to threads, that's what a troll does... and I don't think your a troll.

and it's gay, ha? well, now you're insulting more people by being intolerable and narrow minded ... you go man,

now, if you were joking, at least post a smiley to let people know you're playing around, so it wont be taken seriously... but that's clearly not the case

....and to anyone who read all of this, I’M SORRY for clogging the thread like this... I just needed to get it out.... boy am I tired... *sighs*

The Force is strong in this thread. newjak_yodafist

Originally posted by =Tired Hiker=
The Force is strong in this thread. newjak_yodafist

a Dur-Yoda 😱

newjak_yodafist

Your mom is strong in this thread. Ganon>Vader in villainy.

Originally posted by Diamond Kisses
Who do think is the greatest or most interesting villain of all time in the world of fiction? 😄

I myself would give that title to Scar or possibly Abis Mal 😄

Agreed. 131

Your mom is strong.

Originally posted by Violent2Dope
Your mom is strong in this thread. Ganon>Vader in villainy.

😆

boy, you always make me crack up

and No, Ganon doesnt 😛

😄

Originally posted by S_D_J
😆

boy, you always make me crack up

and No, Ganon doesnt 😛

😄

And I think you forget that Vader is the one who killed a bunch of kiddies to save his wife, then strangle his wife, then have his legs cut off, and have his whole body burned, which also made him lose his only remaining arm, now he has to wear a heavy ass suit that weakens his power greatly, and after ALL that, his wife still dies. A real intelligent and effective villain indeed. 🙄

Originally posted by Violent2Dope
Was it really THAT funny? 🤨

And I think you forget that Vader is the one who killed a bunch of kiddies to save his wife, then strangle his wife, then have his legs cut off, and have his whole body burned, which also made him lose his only remaining arm, now he has to wear a heavy ass suit that weakens his power greatly, and after ALL that, his wife still dies. A real intelligent and effective villain indeed. 🙄

I never really thought about all that. Man, Vader was stupid. 😆

Originally posted by S_D_J
Good, but it seems you are responding to the one I ask, even though we still dont agree

the Question it's simple: do you think Vader's action in one of the movies will change the fact that he was a Villain????

that was the question, just as simple, but...

i answered it. many times. vader was a villain in the story from the middle of ep3 to the end of ep5. i presented my case that its arguable that his role of villain began to diminish at the end of ep5, but thats an interpretation. interpretations on subjective matters cannot be proven with finallity, but i will address this later. (disappointing that i must)

Originally posted by S_D_J
you said I contradicted myself, when saying after all I wrote, I supposedly followed with a Contradiction: ""Vader isnt that evil, he was just confused"

vader was consumed by the darkside. he was taken over by evil, and as such had no remorse for his actions. he had a glimmer of compassion in his lamentation upon learning that he aided in killed his wife, but after that he was a remorseless killing machine with no compassion. this began to change when he gained a sense of pride and caring for his son. while his motives were still rooted in evil, he still never sought to kill luke. regardless of his plans he grew attached to luke.

Originally posted by S_D_J
Vader's Evilness what's never in question, neither did I ever say he was the biggest evil villain that ever existed. its the fact that he was a Villain, even though Palpatine was much worse than Vader could be...

i addressed this and you simply repeated the point. i have no idea why im continuing this. i guess im a glutton for punishment. since you only have to read my last post, in which i quote and respond to this statement, ill leave it to you...

Originally posted by S_D_J
even though he was twisted and evil, his not as evil as he's make out to be, and not nearly as evil as Palpatine. He had a reason behind his doing, it was not pure wickedness that drove him to do what he did. What he resort to do to get what he wanted is what makes him evil.
now about the movies (I'm talking about the OT, not the PT): he does not do things that are more evil than what Palpatine or even Tarkin did, would you not agree on that?.

no, i dont agree. vader condoned and supported their actions in eps 4 and 5. your implication seems to be that he was oblivious and obtuse to their actions and intentions. he clearly was not. if you are simply asking who's directly committed acts were more evil, i would say palpatine's. tarkin was likely following direct orders from palpatine, though that doesnt absolve him at all. im just saying that palpatine was pulling all the strings, so he was in essense the committer of said acts imho, much like hitler in WW2. this is beside the point though. the point i was simply making was that vader was not a villain in the absolute sense in ep6. he was *this is important* the 'wild card'. lucas keeps us in suspense throughout the film, keeping us guessing. will he follow through with these apparent breakthroughs? is luke correct? is ben correct?

ep6 is the inner struggle between anakin and vader. when we see vader conflicted, it is because anakin is struggling to make sense of things...sort of stirring from a long slumber before he finally wakes up. even at the end the character of vader seems to resign entirely as he informs luke "the emperor will show you the true nature of the force. HE is your master now". this of course after we see one of a few flickers of hope as vader (rather anakin) pauses and reflects upon his son's achievements, and is obviously tempted my lukes plea to join him...to join the side of good. it seems that it is no longer evil which
compells him to enable the emporer, but sheer hopelessness and despair. he has essentially given up on his own ambitions to be sith master at this point. the twisted and evil side of anakin is now rendered completely impotent and pathetic.

Originally posted by S_D_J
even though he was not as evil as other evil/villainous characters in the movie, he is still a Villain. you seem to agree on that, but completely ruled him out because of what happens at THE END of the last movie

no, for about the 12th time, i rule him out as villain throughout the entire film. he is the wild card, considering his multiple personallity disorder and struggle between said personallities. an internal battleground of both good and evil.

Originally posted by S_D_J

A villain IS NOT someone who appears to be irredeemable. There are lots of villain, who at the end turn tables (they do, and sometimes it appears like they do) and end up helping in some way.... they get redemption. but that doesn't erased their actions, they just get.. redemption is just as simple.... and most of the time they're acting, only to get the upper hand...

just like THERE ARE HEROES who end up going the wrong way.

You can feel sympathetic towards a Villain, its not as rare as you make it look (or as you want it to look). most of the time you know the villain back story, you know what drives them to do what they do, you understand them (although you dont agree with them)... most of the time you pity a villain or may feel sympathy towards them, because sometimes it's not entirely they fault.

as you make it out it's you are supposed to blindly hate the villain, not have the slightest pity, compassion or sympathy towards them, and [B]that's where and why, you get it wrong[/B]

i think i see the problem in our communication. remember that a story is ever evolving and organic. roles change. anakin was a hero, then conflicted (wild card), then a villain, then once again conflicted (wild card), then a hero. there was an intentional process which lucas emplyed in his story telling to illustrate this. (sorry to include PT, but even without the concept stays the same, but is then rather a linear transition from evil to wild card to hero. i just wanted to express the concept of an evolving character since you're implying an absolute role.

since like myself, im sure you also experienced the story for the first time from eps 4 through 6, i only suggest this to ask you this: did you honestly feel a shred of sympathy for vader in ep 4? be honest.

Originally posted by S_D_J

but, to my opinion, you contradict yourself, not with what you're saying right there, but also with what you wrote afterwards

that's what I was talking about earlier: you finally know Vader's motivation, a bit of his story, you could not help but to feel somewhat of sympathy towards him. But, are you supposed to forgive all of vader's doings?, rule him out as a villain, even though he still resorts to bad actions in the next movie. It's true Palpatine was the greatest evil, the greatest villain, but it still doesn't make Vader a Non-Villain, like i said, it lessens his evil, just that

it does neither, imho. palpatine's presense does not affect his status as villain. this is another communication gap which needs resolution.

i never implied that one cause the other. i only stated that by introducing palpatine as chief antagonist in ep6, lucas is able to alter vader's role without affecting the integrity of the good-evil structure in his method of story telling. this way, there is still an iredeemable character for us to boo and hiss at, a role which vader filled nicely in eps 4 and 5.

the rest is you trying to avoid blatant reality and defend your friend. i will not address it. stick to the debate or i will simply ignore you.

as far as not being able to prove something which subjective, one must be delusional to believe they could accomplish this. i am amazed at your implication that i 'lost' because i submit that my interpretation is disputable.

you need to grasp an understanding of the reality of a debate on subjective topics. it cannot be won. it could perhaps be lost due to lack of validity in evidence, but never EVER won.

your next reply will determine whether or not i respond. i will place faith in you to not continue placing words in my mouth and implications which were never made. (these actions are time-wasting and insulting) a debate of this nature is an exchange of ideas. you are attempting to prove me wrong and win. this is why you are failing. all the silly pictures and parroting about battleships from your friend will not change this. i await with hopeful anticipation.

Originally posted by =Tired Hiker=
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I never really thought about all that. Man, Vader was stupid. 😆

Originally posted by Violent2Dope
Was it really THAT funny? 🤨

And I think you forget that Vader is the one who killed a bunch of kiddies to save his wife, then strangle his wife, then have his legs cut off, and have his whole body burned, which also made him lose his only remaining arm, now he has to wear a heavy ass suit that weakens his power greatly, and after ALL that, his wife still dies. A real intelligent and effective villain indeed. 🙄

remember to send a check to wrathful dwarf for stealing his point. also i feel i deserve a small cut for the strangling bit.

Originally posted by Schecter
remember to send a check to wrathful dwarf for stealing his point. also i feel i deserve a small cut for the strangling bit.