Are humans special?

Started by stickman6189 pages

Originally posted by Alfheim
At any rate genetic engineering and going to the moon can be applied to the vaules of other animals and insects. Humans as well as other creatures on this planet want to survive, if I can survive better than anybody else then im superior.

An asteroid threatens to wipe out life on earth we escape and everything else dies im superior. If I can take the DNA of other animals and take their attributes and others im superior. If I can even use my science to make them better at what they do im superior.

don't forget

if i can kill more i'm superior

Originally posted by stickman618
don't forget

if i can kill more i'm superior

Well animals and insects kill to survive. *shrug*

Originally posted by ragesRemorse
Instinctual nature is special, but the ability to disobey instinctual nature is even more special...,thank you conscious thought.

Yes, humans are special. More so than the fuzzy bunny, laughing hyena, slithering snake, soaring bird and marching elephant circus.

Have you ever heard the wolf cry to the blue corn moon?

For shame. Pocahontas scorns you. For shame. uhuh

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Have you ever heard the wolf cry to the blue corn moon?

Is that what the lyrics are!? No shit. Kind of insulting now that I know what she's really singing.

Well, that's only because you can't paint with all the colors of the wind, obviously.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Well, that's only because you can't paint with all the colors of the wind, obviously.

That's kind of an unfair assumption! I've been told it's possible I'm 1/18 Indian. Which seems to be true, because I'm not allergic to Poison Ivy.

I'm only, what, 14 fractions away from owning a casino?

Originally posted by Devil King
That's kind of an unfair assumption! I've been told it's possible I'm 1/18 Indian. Which seems to be true, because I'm not allergic to Poison Ivy.

I'm only, what, 14 fractions away from owning a casino?

Nah, it just takes a lot of lies, a bit of money and no conscience whatsoever to get an Indian Casino. You are 14 fractions away from getting your house taken away getting a piece of worthless land with 1000 other people and some blankets with smallpox. Damn, must feel good to be a white homo in the US.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: YES!

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
This is pretty special:

Yup. Damned ugly though.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Is the point you that youare trying to make is that eventhough humans can create artifical life and travel to the moon its irrelevant because there are still things that other creatures can do that we obvoulsy cant do, such as survive in extreme cold without assistance.

Yes . . . because they're special, just like us.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Your other point is simply saying that I am using a human criteria for what is special or superior.

Exactly. That's dumb. The question is "are humans special" not "are humans special from our point of view" you lack objectivity.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: YES!

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Yup. Damned ugly though.

Yes . . . because they're special, just like us.

Exactly. That's dumb. The question is "are humans special" not "are humans special from our point of view" you lack objectivity.

Then in other word I didnt miss the point you did.

Originally posted by Alfheim

Come to think of it though alot of creatures when it come down to it have similar values to that of humans. An ant has a sense of community etc, so to an extent we can compare human values to that of other creatures.

Just that your "we can compare human values to them" is your idea, no one says we can apply that objectively but you.

even if we are comparable, thats the operative term, COMPARE.

To compare two things, you must use a variable that each can be measured on. So, if I have two cups of liquid, a comparison could be made about the relative heat of the liquids to each other or to the room, etc. The important part of this is that in any comparison, there are variables and there are the things that these variables are being compared too.

"Superiority" and "specialness" are not comparative variables. Superiority deals with rank, where imho, specialness deals with relative frequency (less frequency, more special). By definition or even just by the definition of the words, something cannot have general "superiority" or "specialness" when compared to another thing (I guess special is somewhat applicable, since it would be dealing the the frequency of the thing, which is a valid measure).

Ok, so, the most important thing then, are to define what variables are being compared with each other. Herein lies the problem. The variables that humans commonly use to distinguish themselves from one another may only be relevant to humans. Further, the value of certain qualities is dependent on both culture and species.

This isn't really a problem in any normal sense. The community aspect of ants is comparable to the community aspect of humans. Variables within the title "community" (gender roles, work habits, etc) can be compared. Of course, one must be sure not to assume human type distinctions (we tend to anthropomorphize animal behaviour to explain it as if it were a human in an animal's body), but there are still comparative studies that could be ran.

The problem is with the introduction of the word "superior". What does it mean for an animal to be superior to a human, or vice versa? The answer is that it is a meaningless question. Tigers and bears have superior claws and teeth to ours, when compared in regard to sharpness, however we would have far superior teeth to tigers and bears, when compared in regard to cleanliness.

As far as I am concerned, that is the best we can do. As soon as we say that hygiene is "superior" to sharpness, or whatever combination of factors, we are taking the subjective need that each species has for their physical characteristics and putting them into the context of another species' experience.

So, with regard to the common examples of genetic engineering and space flight, these are things that are inherently human. One way of expressing this is to say that humans are superior because we can make things that other animals cannot, or we can put in goal posts and say "when humans reach X degree of technology or X degrees of independence from nature we are superior", but every single variable that we are superior to animals in is a variable that is culturally specific to the human context. The entire concept of independence from the natural world is a human concept, thus, the fact that any other animal has not achieved it does not show any general degree of human superiority, rather it shows that the human condition has created a situation where humans value this type of autonomy.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Just that your "we can compare human values to them" is your idea, no one says we can apply that objectively but you.

Obvously thats up to you to decide what you think, my beef was that in my post quoted I was not saying humans are special from our point of view, I was saying that humans are special because things that we consider as attributes for superiority can be applied to other creatures. ie humans are not superior to animals because they cant build cars but were superior because we can achieve the same objectives more easily.

Originally posted by inimalist

As far as I am concerned, that is the best we can do. As soon as we say that hygiene is "superior" to sharpness, or whatever combination of factors, we are taking the subjective need that each species has for their physical characteristics and putting them into the context of another species' experience.

Ok but im not doing that am I? Im not saying that we are superior because we can fly to the moon and they cant, im saying were superior because we both have the same objectives but because im human I can do it better, and im not using the human defintion for "better" im using the universal one.....better = not dead.

Originally posted by inimalist

So, with regard to the common examples of genetic engineering and space flight, these are things that are inherently human. One way of expressing this is to say that humans are superior because we can make things that other animals cannot, or we can put in goal posts and say "when humans reach X degree of technology or X degrees of independence from nature we are superior", but every single variable that we are superior to animals in is a variable that is culturally specific to the human context. The entire concept of independence from the natural world is a human concept, thus, the fact that any other animal has not achieved it does not show any general degree of human superiority, rather it shows that the human condition has created a situation where humans value this type of autonomy.

Animals and insects dont fly in space but they do use the environment to make life easier and hence these things can be used in comparison with insects and animals. They dont make what we do but they do create things or use things for the same pupose, survival. Start a forest fire and every creature will try to escape as would a human being if we both have the same gaols but I can reach these goals more easily then im superior.

Independence from nature is a human concept as well but this can still be applied to survival. Any creature that faces danger wil want to "independent" from it. You set fire to an ant hill and the ants will try to escape the difference is that as a human I have more options.

Originally posted by Devil King
That's kind of an unfair assumption! I've been told it's possible I'm 1/18 Indian. Which seems to be true, because I'm not allergic to Poison Ivy.

I'm only, what, 14 fractions away from owning a casino?

Poison Ivy is hot, you know you'd do her even though she's fictional and you're gay.

Originally posted by Alfheim
I was not saying humans are special from our point of view, I was saying that humans are special because things that we consider as attributes for superiority can be applied to other creatures.

I wasn't saying humans are special from our point of view.
I was saying humans are special because of things we consider make us special.

How is that not a logical inconsistency? The underlined clauses are relatively synonymous.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
I wasn't saying humans are special from our point of view.
I was saying humans are special because of things we consider make us special.

How is that not a logical inconsistency? The underlined clauses are relatively synonymous.

Maybe because you didnt read the underlined
bit. *shrug*

Originally posted by Alfheim
Obvously thats up to you to decide what you think, my beef was that in my post quoted I was not saying humans are special from our point of view, I was saying that humans are special because things that we consider as attributes for superiority can be applied to other creatures. ie humans are not superior to animals because they cant build cars but were superior because we can achieve the same objectives more easily.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Maybe because you didnt read the underlined
bit. *shrug*
So when humans use attributes (defined subjectively) they consider are superior (subjective) and apply them to animals under the assumption (subjective) that they're applicable to animals, they're not taking it from a subjective human point of view. OK... ermmhappy

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
So when humans use attributes (defined subjectively) they consider are superior (subjective) and apply them to animals under the assumption (subjective) that they're applicable to animals, they're not taking it from a subjective human point of view. OK... ermmhappy

Everything can be defined as subjective but what I was saying wasnt logically inconsistent as you stated. Feel free to disagree just dont be saying things I never said.

I paraphrased what you said. Paraphrasing the latter part was superfluous when the former already established the criterion as being subjectively human making the sentence essentially synonymous. The latter part of the sentence only furthers subjectivity. But at least you're now accepting that your criterion is from a subjectively human point of view. doped

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
I paraphrased what you said. Paraphrasing the latter part was superfluous when the former already established the criterion as being subjectively human making the sentence essentially synonymous. The latter part of the sentence only furthers subjectivity. But at least you're now accepting that your criterion is from a subjectively human point of view. doped

Subjectvity can be applied to everything. Hell it could even be argued theres no such thing as being objective. 😐

Originally posted by Alfheim
Subjectvity can be applied to everything.
Yes I saw that the first time. I mostly agree. So then why deny that you're criterion is from a subjectively human point of view or as written earlier "our point of view"? 😬