Are humans special?

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Yes I saw that the first time. I mostly agree. So then why deny that you're criterion is from a subjectively human point of view or as written earlier "our point of view"? 😬

Again you are just taking one part of my quote. Maybe this will make my point clearer

Originally posted by Alfheim

Ok but im not doing that am I? Im not saying that we are superior because we can fly to the moon and they cant, im saying were superior because we both have the same objectives but because im human I can do it better, and im not using the human defintion for "better" im using the universal one.....better = not dead.

Why would an ant consider human attributes as superior with regard to ant survival? The human still can't lay ant eggs. Obviously you've never walked the footsteps of a stranger, you'll learn things you never knew you never knew. 🙂

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Why would an ant consider human attributes as superior with regard to ant survival? The human still can't lay ant eggs. Obviously you've never walked the footsteps of a stranger, you'll learn things you never knew you never knew. 🙂

Originally posted by Alfheim

Animals and insects dont fly in space but they do use the environment to make life easier and hence these things can be used in comparison with insects and animals. They dont make what we do but they do create things or use things for the same pupose, survival.
Start a forest fire and every creature will try to escape as would a human being if we both have the same gaols but I can reach these goals more easily then im superior.

Special and superior (in a positive manner) aren't necessarily synonyms. Equating them is a very subjective human thing to do.

Getting zero on a math test is pretty special. As is singing with all the voices of the mountain.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Special and superior (in a positive manner) aren't necessarily synonyms. Equating them is a very subjective human thing to do.

Thats good because I wanst doing that. I was talking about superioty and I defined what I meant by that. 😐

Originally posted by inimalist
lol

superior isn't defined by the human condition. For instance, from a bacteria-eye-view, the fact you cannot reproduce through division, steal DNA from other organisms, or motor around with a flagellum far outweigh the petty buildings and whatever that humans needed to build to survive, or their abstract, yet truly meaningless, art and philosophy which they only produce to compensate for their depressing existance (intelligence as a curse).

bacteria, as far as well adapted and survival is concerned, outshine us. Unless you define superiority in terms of being human, you can't really say you are superior to them. The fact that your life is dependent upon harmonious symbiotic living between you and numerious species of bacteria. Soil is dependant on bacteria. Human civilization and everything we take to be monuments of human invention, are dependent on bacteria.

OK, You seem to say that "special" shouldn't be defined from the human point of view- and yet you then go on to define "special" from the bacteria point of view... not a very consistent argument. If having a flagellum is the proof of being "special" then yes, bacteria have it all over human beings. I prefer to look at things like achievement, intellect, conscious awareness, evolutionary advancement... these are things which are not dependent upon have either a flagellum OR having opposable thumbs- I think they are a species-neutural way of grading higher forms of life versus lower forms of life.

Bacterial are a lower form of life, human-beings are a higher form. Any honest and objective comparison will acknowledge this- in fact, humans EVOLVED from bacteria-like single cell organisms. A billion years ago, these primitive lifeforms crawled out of the primordial soup, beginning their long march up the ladder. We are the most recent rung of that ladder. We can argue all day about the existential meaning of "special" but no one (barring insanity) would trade places with a bacteria. I agree that art and philosophy are abstract. Bacteria could never comprehend such abstractions (in fact, they can't comprehend at all), so that is another special quality of humanity. But to call art and philosophy meaningless is just silly. You are obviously very intelligent and well spoken- but do you mean to say that you don't appreciate art? You don't go to movies, enjoy music, or beautiful paintings? I think these things are all preferable to having a flagellum and motoring around in a petri dish. I think ALL forms of life are special... but on this planet, human beings sit atop the evolutionary ladder. This is a scientific reality that makes one look foolish trying to argue.

Originally posted by Cap'n Happy
OK, You seem to say that "special" shouldn't be defined from the human point of view- and yet you then go on to define "special" from the bacteria point of view... not a very consistent argument. If having a flagellum is the proof of being "special" then yes, bacteria have it all over human beings. I prefer to look at things like achievement, intellect, conscious awareness, evolutionary advancement... these are things which are not dependent upon have either a flagellum OR having opposable thumbs- I think they are a species-neutural way of grading higher forms of life versus lower forms of life.

Bacterial are a lower form of life, human-beings are a higher form. Any honest and objective comparison will acknowledge this- in fact, humans EVOLVED from bacteria-like single cell organisms. A billion years ago, these primitive lifeforms crawled out of the primordial soup, beginning their long march up the ladder. We are the most recent rung of that ladder. We can argue all day about the existential meaning of "special" but no one (barring insanity) would trade places with a bacteria. I agree that art and philosophy are abstract. Bacteria could never comprehend such abstractions (in fact, they can't comprehend at all), so that is another special quality of humanity. But to call art and philosophy meaningless is just silly. You are obviously very intelligent and well spoken- but do you mean to say that you don't appreciate art? You don't go to movies, enjoy music, or beautiful paintings? I think these things are all preferable to having a flagellum and motoring around in a petri dish. I think ALL forms of life are special... but on this planet, human beings sit atop the evolutionary ladder. This is a scientific reality that makes one look foolish trying to argue.

LOL

what was the last thing you read about bacterial evolution?

Can I save myself the time and just say: "Read a book"

[QUOTE=10146876]Originally posted by inimalist
LOL

what was the last thing you read about bacterial evolution?

Can I save myself the time and just say: "Read a book" [/QUOTE

Yes, by all mean, tell me which book you have in mind. I would love to read a book that makes the case that human beings are below bacteria in any true, meaningful way. Please note, I recognize that bacteria are capable of many amazing things which humans can not do. I just don't rate these things higher than the many hallmarks of human achievement-conscious thought, creativity, ect.
Read a book? I DO read books- yet another thing a bacteria can not do (or are you now going to call reading and writing another meaningless human achievement?) The topic here is "are humans special?" I believe that being the most advanced life-form on the planet makes us special. You seem to be saying that bacteria are some how superior to humans. I would bet that something like 99% of scientists and philosophers and theologians would back me up on this. I am quite serious though, please tell me which books you have in mind. I'd love to read them, and don't mind having my opinions challenged.

Originally posted by Cap'n Happy
[QUOTE=10146876]Originally posted by inimalist
[B]LOL

what was the last thing you read about bacterial evolution?

Can I save myself the time and just say: "Read a book" [/QUOTE

Yes, by all mean, tell me which book you have in mind. I would love to read a book that makes the case that human beings are below bacteria in any true, meaningful way. Please note, I recognize that bacteria are capable of many amazing things which humans can not do. I just don't rate these things higher than the many hallmarks of human achievement-conscious thought, creativity, ect.
Read a book? I DO read books- yet another thing a bacteria can not do (or are you now going to call reading and writing another meaningless human achievement?) The topic here is "are humans special?" I believe that being the most advanced life-form on the planet makes us special. You seem to be saying that bacteria are some how superior to humans. I would bet that something like 99% of scientists and philosophers and theologians would back me up on this. I am quite serious though, please tell me which books you have in mind. I'd love to read them, and don't mind having my opinions challenged. [/B]

What about the type of bacteria that evolve into Eukaryotes and cooperate with other bacteria to form humans? What about the type that can survive and win a tangle with the human metabolism?

Originally posted by Quark_666
What about the type of bacteria that evolve into Eukaryotes and cooperate with other bacteria to form humans? What about the type that can survive and win a tangle with the human metabolism?

Well, you're kind of making my point. Bacteria/single cell organisms EVOLVED (over many millions of years) into higher (that is, more complex) forms of life... hence, humans are a superior form of life.
A eukaryote is a classification of life, meaning any organism whose cell structure has a nucleus (I think that's it- I'm not a scientist).
As for bacteria that are harmful to human beings... well, what about the many bacteria we can easily wipe out? None of this proves the special-ness or superiority of one over the other... you have to take the whole picture of each organisims abilities and attributes in consideration.

Originally posted by Cap'n Happy
[QUOTE=10146876]Originally posted by inimalist
[B]LOL

what was the last thing you read about bacterial evolution?

Can I save myself the time and just say: "Read a book" [/QUOTE

Yes, by all mean, tell me which book you have in mind. I would love to read a book that makes the case that human beings are below bacteria in any true, meaningful way. Please note, I recognize that bacteria are capable of many amazing things which humans can not do. I just don't rate these things higher than the many hallmarks of human achievement-conscious thought, creativity, ect.
Read a book? I DO read books- yet another thing a bacteria can not do (or are you now going to call reading and writing another meaningless human achievement?) The topic here is "are humans special?" I believe that being the most advanced life-form on the planet makes us special. You seem to be saying that bacteria are some how superior to humans. I would bet that something like 99% of scientists and philosophers and theologians would back me up on this. I am quite serious though, please tell me which books you have in mind. I'd love to read them, and don't mind having my opinions challenged. [/B]

will you read what I post?

the argument in this thread has gotten VERY circular, most of my explanation you can probably find from reading the previous pages, and it will be a rather long reply to explain all this to you.

1) The Ancestor's Tale - Richard Dawkins
2) I'm not actually making the point you think I am making. hint: Deconstruction.

Originally posted by inimalist
will you read what I post?

the argument in this thread has gotten VERY circular, most of my explanation you can probably find from reading the previous pages, and it will be a rather long reply to explain all this to you.

1) The Ancestor's Tale - Richard Dawkins
2) I'm not actually making the point you think I am making. hint: Deconstruction.

I just went back and read all of your posts (by the way, do you mean to say you always do like wise? Come on). To paraphrase your first post:

"Human beings are both unique and special- they are the most important life-form on the planet."

It seems that we agreee- so why are you being so contrarian with me? I reread your responses to me and could honestly not tell the difference in your rhetoric or in your 'tone' from the people claiming that bears and tigers (and yes, bacteria) are all superior to man. I admitted that you write intelligently, but you wont grant me the same. Rather, you speak dismissively and talk down. I haven't read The Ancestors tale (just got The God Delusion) but I can't believe that Dawkins believes that humans aren't superior (in the main) to bacteria- of course you don't think this either, so we hardly have an argument here. If I missed your point in your responses to me, I think I can be excused- I was just going by your words.

Originally posted by Cap'n Happy
I just went back and read all of your posts (by the way, do you mean to say you always do like wise? Come on). To paraphrase your first post:

"Human beings are both unique and special- they are the most important life-form on the planet."

It seems that we agreee- so why are you being so contrarian with me? I reread your responses to me and could honestly not tell the difference in your rhetoric or in your 'tone' from the people claiming that bears and tigers (and yes, bacteria) are all superior to man. I admitted that you write intelligently, but you wont grant me the same. Rather, you speak dismissively and talk down. I haven't read The Ancestors tale (just got The God Delusion) but I can't believe that Dawkins believes that humans aren't superior (in the main) to bacteria- of course you don't think this either, so we hardly have an argument here. If I missed your point in your responses to me, I think I can be excused- I was just going by your words.

the thing is, never did i claim that bacteria are "superior" to humans, except when compared along variables where specific skills that bacteria have evolved to use are measured. A bacteria is superior to a human at using a flagellum, humans superior at using a prefrontal cortex to create tools.

Tool use, and all the wonderful things that spawn from it, are simply us using the thing that nature selected for our ancestors to have. The major thing here is that qualities which are specific to human existence are being used and applied to other species to give a generic "superior". I agree that humans are superior to all other species at being human. Notice that the argument is one of language and not of value. I do not believe that the term superior is being used correctly, nor do I believe superior and special are synonyms, as earlier dictionary quotations show.

Originally posted by Cap'n Happy
Well, you're kind of making my point. Bacteria/single cell organisms EVOLVED (over many millions of years) into higher (that is, more complex) forms of life... hence, humans are a superior form of life.
A eukaryote is a classification of life, meaning any organism whose cell structure has a nucleus (I think that's it- I'm not a scientist).
As for bacteria that are harmful to human beings... well, what about the many bacteria we can easily wipe out? None of this proves the special-ness or superiority of one over the other... you have to take the whole picture of each organisims abilities and attributes in consideration.

So complexity is an indication of superiority?

Originally posted by Cap'n Happy
in fact, humans EVOLVED from bacteria-like single cell organisms.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
And the single-celled HeLa line evolved from a human. doped They're pretty special and technically a rung further along on the evolutionary "ladder."

Human beings did not evolve into a bacteria. Sorry but that has never happened (for one thing, that would be DE-volving).

Originally posted by Quark_666
So complexity is an indication of superiority?

It CAN be... in the case of the human organism, I certainly say yes, the complexity of human beings, the intellectual capacity, and the many and varied achievements of humanity mark us as the planet's highest lifeform.

The very fact that with a push of a button we can destroy most of the life and system of this planet in a matter of hours, yes we're special.

The ability to destroy things on a massive scale makes us special.

Originally posted by Cap'n Happy
Human beings did not evolve into a bacteria. Sorry but that has never happened (for one thing, that would be DE-volving).

The HeLa line cells are essentially single-celled organisms, derived from a human precursor (Henrietta Lacks). Their genome is no longer compatible with H. sapiens so a relatively valid case can be made for them being a distinct species, and as such they would be considered further along the evolutionary "ladder" such that

There's really no such thing as "devolving" from a evolutionary biology perspective and such a term implies a misunderstanding of evolution. If humans were to lose their sense of sight over a grand scale of time due to a pitch dark environs it would still be evolution.

Originally posted by Cap'n Happy
It CAN be... in the case of the human organism, I certainly say yes, the complexity of human beings, the intellectual capacity, and the many and varied achievements of humanity mark us as the planet's highest lifeform.

chimps have greater genetic complexity than humans, and in layman's terms, could be considered to be "more evolved" than humans.