Originally posted by leonheartmm
marchello, lose your virginity for HEAVEN'S sake!!!!!!!!!!!!
***Leon:
I am a VERY HAPPY man who has been married for a number of years. Also, I have two beautiful daughters and the Lord has blessed me with health, peace, and eternal life through Jesus His son. I wish He will bless you and your family as well.
Marchello
*["IF you look under Macabees in t he bible it clearly says there is infact a purgatory.If you don't believe me go read the bible if you don't have one then go online.
It wil be there all you have to do is check."]
***And, of course, you are in ERROR. The Catholic Church bases the doctrine of purgatory on a passage in [2 Maccabees 12:39-45] which is a Jewish book written after the close of the Old Testament. It is an apocryphal book and is NOT acknowledged by Christians as having ANY authority.
The verses in the cited reference in 2 Maccabees do NOT teach the doctrine at all. NOWHERE in this passage is there ANY mention of FIRE in which souls are TORMENTED. All that is mentioned is prayers for the DEAD, from which the Roman Catholic theologians INFER, first, that such prayers are PROPER, and secondly, that such prayers can be EFFECTIVE for the SALVATION of the DEAD. FURTHERMORE, from the Roman Catholic viewpoint, these verses prove TOO MUCH...for they teach the POSSIBLE salvation of soldiers who had DIED in MORTAL SIN...that of IDOLATRY. And that CONTRADICTS Roman Catholic doctrine, which is that those DYING in MORTAL SIN go STRAIGHT to HELL and are PERMANENTLY LOST. They DO NOT go to purgatory where they can be aided by the prayers of people still on earth. Without a doubt, anyone who had never heard of purgatory would learn of it from these passages. The word purgatory is NOT FOUND there and is a MYTH of EPIC PROPORTIONS. [Loraine Boettner]
Marchello
Originally posted by Marchello
[B]*["Well, if one is a Christian, it's not mentioned in the Bible."]***Yes, it is...Acts 11:26;26:28;1 Peter 4:16
Marchello [/B]
***ooops! I thought Debbiejo meant that the word "Christian" was not mentioned in the Bible. It is the word "purgatory" that is NOT mentioned in the Bible. Sorry about that.
Marchello
*["...I'm not that self righteous (unlike some)."]
***Au Contrare...you ARE self-righteous...listen to your words: "I swear all these religious nuts on here must be fake. There surely cannot be this many dick heads, on one site."
You are NOT unlike the Pharisees of Jesus' day...who stood in the rear of the synagogue and beat their breasts and proclaimed that they were NOT like the "sinners" up-front who begged God to forgive their sins. These HYPOCRITES were too SELF-RIGHTEOUS to admit that they were "sinners" in need of forgiveness...so they stood in the rear of the synagogue and passed JUDGMENT on the "poor sinners" up-front. You, like they, have judged me and other Christians and proclaimed that we are religious fakes (even though you have never met any of us...nor can counter what we say on these boards from Scripture). Too, you have resorted to profanity in describing us because of our beliefs because they conflict with yours. Who is the self-righteous one here?
NOTE: I called you a teenager with a head full of "mush" because your words reveal what you ARE:
(1)One who is barely mature enough to SHAVE
(2)One who only a short time ago reached PUBERTY
(3)One who has NOT lived long enough to acquire any meaningful life experience...thus being unable to make any meaningful pronouncements predicated on maturity
(4)One who has NEVER...but NEVER read the Bible
(5)One who is the product of the corrupt SECULAR society into which we have evolved
(6)One who owes allegiance to NO God except the "God of this world"
(7)A teenager who is in need of a Saviour
************************************************
*["Thanks for checking out my age though."]
***You're welcome.
Marchello
Originally posted by Marchello
[B]*["...I'm not that self righteous (unlike some)."]***Au Contrare...you ARE self-righteous...listen to your words: "I swear all these religious nuts on here must be fake. There surely cannot be this many dick heads, on one site."
You are NOT unlike the Pharisees of Jesus' day...who stood in the rear of the synagogue and beat their breasts and proclaimed that they were NOT like the "sinners" up-front who begged God to forgive their sins. These HYPOCRITES were too SELF-RIGHTEOUS to admit that they were "sinners" in need of forgiveness...so they stood in the rear of the synagogue and passed JUDGMENT on the "poor sinners" up-front. You, like they, have judged me and other Christians and proclaimed that we are religious fakes (even though you have never met any of us...nor can counter what we say on these boards from Scripture). Too, you have resorted to profanity in describing us because of our beliefs because they conflict with yours. Who is the self-righteous one here?
NOTE: I called you a teenager with a head full of "mush" because your words reveal what you ARE:
(1)One who is barely mature enough to SHAVE
(2)One who only a short time ago reached PUBERTY
(3)One who has NOT lived long enough to acquire any meaningful life experience...thus being unable to make any meaningful pronouncements predicated on maturity
(4)One who has NEVER...but NEVER read the Bible
(5)One who is the product of the corrupt SECULAR society into which we have evolved
(6)One who owes allegiance to NO God except the "God of this world"
(7)A teenager who is in need of a Saviour************************************************
*["Thanks for checking out my age though."]
***You're welcome.
Marchello [/B]
I've read the bible from cover to cover, knob.
My heads full of mush, why? Because I actually have my own opinions, instead of ones I'm told to have by a book? I'm agnostic, but to be honest, hell seems like a better option than having to knock about in heaven, with people like you and JIA.
Originally posted by Marchello
[B]*["...I'm not that self righteous (unlike some)."]***Au Contrare...you ARE self-righteous...listen to your words: "I swear all these religious nuts on here must be fake. There surely cannot be this many dick heads, on one site."
You are NOT unlike the Pharisees of Jesus' day...who stood in the rear of the synagogue and beat their breasts and proclaimed that they were NOT like the "sinners" up-front who begged God to forgive their sins. These HYPOCRITES were too SELF-RIGHTEOUS to admit that they were "sinners" in need of forgiveness...so they stood in the rear of the synagogue and passed JUDGMENT on the "poor sinners" up-front. You, like they, have judged me and other Christians and proclaimed that we are religious fakes (even though you have never met any of us...nor can counter what we say on these boards from Scripture). Too, you have resorted to profanity in describing us because of our beliefs because they conflict with yours. Who is the self-righteous one here?
NOTE: I called you a teenager with a head full of "mush" because your words reveal what you ARE:
(1)One who is barely mature enough to SHAVE
(2)One who only a short time ago reached PUBERTY
(3)One who has NOT lived long enough to acquire any meaningful life experience...thus being unable to make any meaningful pronouncements predicated on maturity
(4)One who has NEVER...but NEVER read the Bible
(5)One who is the product of the corrupt SECULAR society into which we have evolved
(6)One who owes allegiance to NO God except the "God of this world"
(7)A teenager who is in need of a Saviour************************************************
*["Thanks for checking out my age though."]
***You're welcome.
Marchello [/B]
It takes one to know one. To me, you are more like a Pharisee.
all
Originally posted by MarchelloYou err. I don't agree with the paying thing at all, but salvation is not bought. According to Roman Catholic doctrine one must be saved from original sin through baptism and saved from mortal sin by faith in Christ. Therefore, according to Catholic doctrine one cannot buy another's way from damnation to salvation, only one that is already saved can have their temporal (not eternal) punishment shortened. That is the reality of their doctrine which has been horribly, horribly corrupted in practice.
[B]*["See, your thinking that you can buy your way into Heaven, that's not what its about..."]***You are in error. The doctrine of purgatory is referred to as "the gold mine of the priesthood" since it is the SOURCE of such LUCRATIVE income.
In general it is held that the period of suffering in purgatory can be shortened by GIFTS of MONEY, PRAYERS by a priest, and MASSES, which gifts, prayers, and masses can be provided by the person BEFORE death or by relatives and friends AFTER death. The MORE SATISFACTION one makes while living, the LESS remains to be ATONED for in purgatory.
At the time of death the priest is summoned to the bed of the dying person. He administers EXTREME UNCTION, and solemnly pronounces absolution. Yet AFTER death occurs money is EXTRACTED from the mourning relatives and friends to PAY for MASSES to be said in order to SHORTEN the PERIOD of TORMENT in purgatory. The result...particularly among the IGNORANT and UNEDUCATED people, has been that the Catholic Church SELLS salvation for MONEY, not outwardly and directly, but nevertheless in REALITY. ALL understand that the service of the church in SECURING the SALVATION of a soul in purgatory is to be REWARDED with APPROPRIATE gifts or services.
***********************************************
*["Its about you SACRIFICING something to show faith, to take on a small portion of their burden."]
***The Scriptures do NOT support the Papist doctrine of Purgatory. The Bible tells us "For the wages of sin is death, but the GIFT of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord" [Romans 6:23]. When you die you go to one of two places...Heaven or Hell!!! Too, Jesus Christ PAID the PENALTY for ALL sinners who trust HIM ALONE for salvation and He does NOT have to DIE on any man made altar again...to wit: "By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ ONCE FOR ALL. And every priest standeth DAILY ministering and OFFERING oftentimes THE SAME SACRIFICES, which can NEVER TAKE AWAY SINS: but this man, after He had offered ONE SACRIFICE for sins FOR EVER sat down on the right hand of God" [Hebrews 10:10-12].
Marchello [/B]
Originally posted by Marchello
(1)One who is barely mature enough to SHAVE
(3)One who has NOT lived long enough to acquire any meaningful life experience...thus being unable to make any meaningful pronouncements predicated on maturity
(4)One who has NEVER...but NEVER read the Bible
3) And outright falsehood. Maturity is not the product of age and that is indeed anti-Biblical.
"Do not let anyone despise you for your youth, but set the believers an example in speech, in conduct, in love, in faith, in purity." - 1 Timothy 4:12.
Youth has nothing to do with anything it is conduct and faith that marks maturity. And there are many young children whose life experiences qualify themselves over many others, especially those of Western societies. Also, one is quite able to advance to high moral levels and principles by the age of 11. Your assertion is horribly ignorant.
4) And you lie.
Originally posted by MarchelloExcept that it was included in the Septuagint that Jesus quoted from. You fail miserably here. Jesus obviously used the Septuagint as an authoritative book and hence 2 Maccabees is canon. It is sad that you take the opinion of the Jews in 90AD that rejected your own Lord and Saviour as superior to that of Christ Himself.
***And, of course, you are in ERROR. The Catholic Church bases the doctrine of purgatory on a passage in [2 Maccabees 12:39-45] which is a Jewish book written after the close of the Old Testament. It is an apocryphal book and is NOT acknowledged by Christians as having ANY authority.
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*["Except that it was included in the Septuagint that Jesus quoted from. You fail miserably here. Jesus obviously used the Septuagint as an authoritative book and hence 2 Maccabees is canon...."]
***The Apocrypha is NOT scripture. The Apocrypha consists of a set of books written between approximately 400 B.C. and the time of Christ. The word "apocrypha" (ap鈥rufa) means "Hidden." These books consist of and 2 Esdras, Tobit, Judith, the Rest of Esther, the Wisdom of Solomon, Sirach, (also titled Ecclesiasticus), Baruch, The Letter of Jeremiah, Song of the Three Young Men, Susanna, Bel and the Dragon, The Additions to Daniel, The Prayer of Manasseh, and 1 and 2 Maccabees.
The Protestant Church rejects the Apocrypha as being inspired, as do the Jews, but in 1546 the Roman Catholic Church officially declared some of the apocryphal books to belong to the canon of Scripture. These are Tobit, Judith, 1 and 2 Maccabees, Wisdom of Solomon, Sirach (also known as Ecclesiasticus), and Baruch. The apocryphal books are
written in Greek, NOT Hebrew (except for Ecclesiasticus, 1 Maccabees, a part of Judith, and Tobit), and contain some useful historical information.
Is the Apocrypha Scripture? Protestants deny its inspiration, but the Roman Catholic Church affirms it. In order to ascertain whether it is or isn't, we need to look within its pages.
(A)Not quoted in the New Testament
First of all, neither Jesus nor the apostles EVER QUOTED from the Apocrypha. There are over 260 quotations of the Old Testament in the New Testament, and NOT ONE of them is from these books. Nevertheless, a Roman Catholic might respond by saying that there are several Old Testament books that are not quoted in the New Testament, i.e., Joshua, Judges, Esther, etc. Does this mean that they aren't inspired either? But, these books had already been accepted into the canon by the Jews, whereas the Apocrypha had not. The Jews recognized the Old Testament canon and they did not include the Apocrypha in it. This is significant because of what Paul says..."then what advantage has the Jew? Or what is the benefit of circumcision? Great in every respect. First of all, that they were entrusted with the oracles of God," (Rom. 3:1-2. ).
Paul tells us that the Jews were entrusted with the oracles of God. This means that THEY are the ones who UNDERSTOOD what inspired Scriptures WERE, and they NEVER ACCEPTED the Apocrypha.
(B)Jesus references the Old Testament: from Abel to Zechariah
Jesus referenced the Jewish Old Testament canon from the beginning to the end and did NOT include the apocryphal in his reference..."From the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who perished between the altar and the house of God; yes, I tell you, it shall be charged against this generation" (Luke 11:51).
(Continued)
PAGE 2:
"The traditional Jewish canon was divided into three sections (Law, Prophets, Writings), and an unusual feature of the last section was the listing of Chronicles out of historical order, placing it after Ezra-Nehemiah and making it the last book of the canon. In light of this, the words of Jesus in Luke 11:50-51 reflect the settled character of the Jewish canon (with its peculiar order) already in his day. Christ uses the expression "from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah," which appears troublesome since Zechariah was not chronologically the last martyr mentioned in the Bible (cf. Jer. 26:20-23). However, Zechariah is the last martyr we read of in the Old Testament according to Jewish canonical order (cf. II Chron. 24:20-22), which was apparently recognized by Jesus and his hearers."
This means that the same Old Testament canon, according to the Jewish tradition, is arranged differently than how we have it in the Protestant Bible today. This was the arrangement that Jesus was referring to when he referenced Abel and Zechariah, the first and last people to have their blood shed -- as listed in the Old Testament Jewish canon. Obviously, Jesus KNEW of the Apocrypha and was NOT including it in his reference.
(C) Jesus references the Old Testament: The Law, the Prophets, and the Psalms
Catholics sometimes respond by saying that the Old Testament is referred to in three parts, the Law, the Prophets, and the Writings. It is these writings that are sometimes said to include the Apocrypha. But THIS designation is NOT found in the Bible. On the contrary, Jesus referenced the Old Testament and designated its three parts as the Law,
the Prophets, and the Psalms, NOT as the Law, the Prophets, and the Writings..."Now He said to them, "These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled" (Luke 24:44).
So we see that the designation offered by the Roman Catholics is NOT the SAME designation found in the Bible and their argument is INVALID if their argument is INCORRECT. Nevertheless, even if it did say "writings," it would NOT include the Apocrypha for the above mentioned reasons.
(D) Church Fathers
Did the Church Fathers recognize the Apocrypha as being Scripture? Roman Catholics strongly appeal to Church history, but we DON'T find a UNANIMOUS consensus on the Apocrypha. Jerome (340-420), who translated the Latin Vulgate which is used by the RC church, REJECTED the Apocrypha since he believed that the Jews recognized and established the proper canon of the Old Testament. Remember, the Christian Church built upon that recognition. Also, Josephus, the famous Jewish historian of the first century, NEVER MENTIONED the Apocrypha as being part of the canon either. In addition, "Early church fathers like Origen, Cyril of Jerusalem, Athanasius, and the great Roman Catholic
translator Jerome spoke out AGAINST the Apocrypha." So, we should NOT conclude that the Church Fathers unanimously AFFIRMED the Apocrypha. They DIDN'T!!! [Carm].
Marchello