Street Fighter IV

Sagat has always been one of those characters who was very, very powerful on the look out, however once you figure out his ways and learn to really play footises and bait him to get punishes in, things start to drastically change.

In SFII:CE, his Tiger Shots were ridiculously good, and gave him tremendous priority over so many characters, however once you learned how to get around him, he isn't as intimidating as he once was. Samething in HF, Super and yes, even ST.

The problem is that, alot of people today no longer can achieve this level of positioning and footsies, and more importantly it's a lost art that has been watered down through out the years.

You go back, and you'll see tons of Ryu's, and good Guile's giving Sagat one hell of a problem. The notion in SF:IV with Sagat is pretty much the samething, the guy is very dominating however some characters can fight him very well, Gouki and Ryu come to mind.

Ryu can fight Sagat very well, the only thing Sagat does better then Ryu at is zoning with projectiles and raw damage. However Ryu beats him out at everything else. Sagat also has alot of problems with Gouki as well, due to his zoning capabilities and the fact that Gouki can really capitalize on Sagat's slow speed and size, the same with Ryu as well.

When you look deeper into it all, and if you simply just "compare" the Top-3, this meaning Sagat, Ryu, and Gouki. Sagat actually doesn't do as well, he goes "even" with Ryu, and arguably loses "slightly" to Gouki. While Ryu goes even with Sagat and Gouki, and for Gouki he wins slightly against Sagat and is even with Ryu.

So at the highest levels of play, Ryu and Gouki actually become better characters then Sagat, because up against the best, they don't lose out at all. Ryu when played correctly has almost no weaknesses to his strategical set up, it's been shown time and time again, and noting the fact that he has the most retarded brain dead easy Ultra Set Up just makes it all the more to his advantage, even against those so called "5-5" match ups which imo are more in Ryu's favor.

Gouki is like Ryu, however he does have a disadvantage in that his Ultra is more difficult to land, and if he eats an Ultra set up he's in for a world of hurt, however that doesn't negate his dominant zoning and offensive prowess whatsoever.

So for me, personally, when played right, I believe Ryu and Gouki are the best characters in the game of SF:IV. However, Sagat just really beats the pants out of much of the cast which is why he gets the "nod". I feel Sagat is much like his older SFII counterparts, like in CE, HF, etc, etc. In some of those matches in those games, he beats out characters badly, in contrast to say Ryu, however when played at their potential, Ryu becomes a much better and more effective character due to his lack of weaknesses and how he dominates to win.

On other news, I heard that in Super Street Fighter IV, they gave Ryu a Two-Hit Shoryuken now, and he still has all of his Ultra Setups...which again, makes me laugh at Capcom. Honestly, as the way "things" are looking, Ryu actually looks to becoming the #1 best overall character in Super Street Fighter IV, obviously all theory talk at this point. However he looks to me at least, to be the character with the least significant nerfs while all the other characters whom were good got some pretty beefy ones, Sagat and Gouki for example.

At this point, if the new characters don't turn out to be too overpowered, Ryu's looking to be in the Top-3 again, if not, #1 spot.

What about ryu's 2nd ultra?

I see the 2 hit SRK for Ryu as total nerf...

.

Originally posted by No End N Site
I see the 2 hit SRK for Ryu as total nerf...

Lol, exactly, however they gave this to Ryu because in SFII he has a 2-hit shoryuken (which occasionally comes out from time to time) and they wanted this for him. The thing that was stated, or least what I've found out is that, you won't do as much damage on the SrkxxFADCxxUltra setup if you only hit with the first hit of the Shoryuken, but you'll do damage more equal to the original SF:IV Ultra setup if you land both Shoryuken hits...which won't be difficult at all, and players will have mastered this within a few days if not a few hours.

Again, the only stated note on Ryu was doing less damage with his Ultra setups, which I thought was stupid. Being a Ryu player, he deserves no nerfs on any other aspect, however his Ultra setup was to me, the most stupid thing about SF:IV, and it really gives him a "get out of jail" free card when you've been playing badly.

In contrast to someone say Sagat, who got damage and stamina reduction, two huge factors in my opinion, because those were two reasons why he was even better then Ryu in the first place. I don't know other details because it's kinda difficult to find sources atm.

So from what I "do know" Ryu is arguably again going to stay Top-Tier, which I don't mind him being that good, just that I'll never give respect to the Ultra setup that he has, or the Ultra system in general, damn, Street Fighter IV would be 100x more epic without that dumb system.

I was told that you couldn't do SrkxxFADCxxUltra setup with the 2nd hit of the SRK. You HAVE to do it after the 1st hit. Although, I do think Ryu deserves that nerf. It aint really fair that he is the only shoto that can hit with the FULL damage of his SRK, then cancel it into somthin' else. But if he can really cancel after the 2nd hit, then I guess the nerf isn't that bad.

Sagat on the other hand disappoints me and fills my Rage Gauge towards Capcom. I think they listened to too many butthertz when tweakin' Sagat. Like s-Kill said, "he's a 7ft kick boxer." He supposed to be the strongest and have the highest stamina (other than Zangief and Rufus). He's the 3rd hugest guy in the game.

I think this is what makes Sagat OP...

-juggle with non-EX fireballs
-juggle with his st.HK
-juggle after his st.HK
-juggle with non-EX tatsu (Sagat can juggle non-EX tiger knee)
-juggle ultra after DP->FADC(backdash) to make the DP EXTRA safe.
- EX fireball->regular fireball
- have a jump in MP that stuffs most anti-airs
- kara cancel all his specials
-juggle ultra after an EX DP without having to FADC
-have a spammable move like LK tiger knee that is safe on block and armor breaks

I would hope they mess with that stuff rather than screwin' around with his basic stats.

I understand what you mean, and on the notion of Ryu, I'm just reading whats being posted on the Ryu thread at srk.com, so yeah, I don't even know if it's 100% accurate, however there's alot of talk going on in there about it. What I read was what I stated above, that it won't do the full damage if you don't hit with both hits on the Shoryuken during the FADC, and I also heard that you have to land the Ultra later in the fall to also receive the full damage. However regardless, it's not like it was "tough" to do it that way anyways, because in SF:IV you had to land it late anyhow to obtain the full damage of it anyways.

However considering I don't have access to SSF:IV I wouldn't know what to say on that matter, however regardless, the fact that he still has it intact, and there is no other confirmed nerfs for him, he's going to be automatically in the bid for top-tier contention unless the "new" characters are just that much better then Ryu is.

On Sagat, I agree with you 100%, he's supposed to be strong, he's supposed to have high stamina. This was never a problem with Sagat at all, the biggest problem with IV Sagat was too many people who didn't know the Sagat match up. To me, he being hyped up way too much by random people who simply don't know how to fight him, aren't that good in this game and simply are on the bandwagon to wanting to see him nerfed.

Believe me, Sagat is always hated by alot of players, simply because of how he dominates. You even have people crying about him getting his Tiger Shots nerfed, which is laughable considering in a game like IV to where there is multiple ways to get around projectiles now. This isn't like SFII where you really have to know your stuff in positioning or Sagat will annihilate you with his Low Tigers.

Never the less his s.fk into Ultra was pretty stupid though, but I will go on record right now and say this, that I am more afraid of fighting a Super solid Ryu or Gouki then Sagat. Because those two character's level of zoning, positioning and footsies is nearly unmatched when played right, and more importantly trying to find problems within their gameplan is very difficult, especially Ryu who is without a doubt the #1 character when it comes to having almost no weaknesses in this game.

You'll find people cry and whine in every new fighting game though, it's expected and Street Fighter IV is no exception. I've seen outrageous comments like "Sagat's Ultra is the most OP thing ever! I'm going back to playing 3S where it's not as stupid!".

Yes, like that almost makes sense to me, considering that in 3rdStrike, Yun's Genei-Jin is 100,000,000,000x worse then Sagat and Ryu's Ultra combined.

To me, yes, I'm no longer competitive, yes, I usually just casual once in awhile with my brothers or friends now, however I'm just really frustrated and annoyed at Capcom. Too much bs on the Ultra System really pisses me off about the game of SF:IV. SSF:IV doesn't look to even "improve" on that, in fact, with the lower damage, Ultra's could potentially become even more vital in the game of play.

So you'll be seeing alot more of these "one tide" turning notions that's becoming a trend in nearly all current fighting games. Overall, the game is making money, and it's drawing in new players either for just enjoyment or competition which is great news. However as far as the strategical aspect goes, that was way back in SFII, and it hasn't improved post that which is absolutely sad and many ways pathetic.

As always, I'll always rant and "*****" about the same things, however when you love a series this much, and to me, SF is arguably my most beloved video game series of all time. I would like them to stop using such stupid universal options and simply be more creative on moves for the characters, like they used too back in the SFII series. Not "Hey, let's add this system so that you can do a combo if they make a mistake" garbage, gah.

I would be more likely to crap out gold then to see Capcom go back to their more strategical ways in their SF games. However, I'll still most likely get SSF:IV, so Capcom would have "won" in the end, the reason being is that, I've always been a big fan of Guy, and would really like to try him.

Originally posted by JustFrame
I understand what you mean, and on the notion of Ryu, I'm just reading whats being posted on the Ryu thread at srk.com, so yeah, I don't even know if it's 100% accurate, however there's alot of talk going on in there about it. What I read was what I stated above, that it won't do the full damage if you don't hit with both hits on the Shoryuken during the FADC, and I also heard that you have to land the Ultra later in the fall to also receive the full damage. However regardless, it's not like it was "tough" to do it that way anyways, because in SF:IV you had to land it late anyhow to obtain the full damage of it anyways.

However considering I don't have access to SSF:IV I wouldn't know what to say on that matter, however regardless, the fact that he still has it intact, and there is no other confirmed nerfs for him, he's going to be automatically in the bid for top-tier contention unless the "new" characters are just that much better then Ryu is.

On Sagat, I agree with you 100%, he's supposed to be strong, he's supposed to have high stamina. This was never a problem with Sagat at all, the biggest problem with IV Sagat was [B]too many people who didn't know the Sagat match up. To me, he being hyped up way too much by random people who simply don't know how to fight him, aren't that good in this game and simply are on the bandwagon to wanting to see him nerfed.

Believe me, Sagat is always hated by alot of players, simply because of how he dominates. You even have people crying about him getting his Tiger Shots nerfed, which is laughable considering in a game like IV to where there is multiple ways to get around projectiles now. This isn't like SFII where you really have to know your stuff in positioning or Sagat will annihilate you with his Low Tigers.

Never the less his s.fk into Ultra was pretty stupid though, but I will go on record right now and say this, that I am more afraid of fighting a Super solid Ryu or Gouki then Sagat. Because those two character's level of zoning, positioning and footsies is nearly unmatched when played right, and more importantly trying to find problems within their gameplan is very difficult, especially Ryu who is without a doubt the #1 character when it comes to having almost no weaknesses in this game.

You'll find people cry and whine in every new fighting game though, it's expected and Street Fighter IV is no exception. I've seen outrageous comments like "Sagat's Ultra is the most OP thing ever! I'm going back to playing 3S where it's not as stupid!".

Yes, like that almost makes sense to me, considering that in 3rdStrike, Yun's Genei-Jin is 100,000,000,000x worse then Sagat and Ryu's Ultra combined.

To me, yes, I'm no longer competitive, yes, I usually just casual once in awhile with my brothers or friends now, however I'm just really frustrated and annoyed at Capcom. Too much bs on the Ultra System really pisses me off about the game of SF:IV. SSF:IV doesn't look to even "improve" on that, in fact, with the lower damage, Ultra's could potentially become even more vital in the game of play.

So you'll be seeing alot more of these "one tide" turning notions that's becoming a trend in nearly all current fighting games. Overall, the game is making money, and it's drawing in new players either for just enjoyment or competition which is great news. However as far as the strategical aspect goes, that was way back in SFII, and it hasn't improved post that which is absolutely sad and many ways pathetic.

As always, I'll always rant and "*****" about the same things, however when you love a series this much, and to me, SF is arguably my most beloved video game series of all time. I would like them to stop using such stupid universal options and simply be more creative on moves for the characters, like they used too back in the SFII series. Not "Hey, let's add this system so that you can do a combo if they make a mistake" garbage, gah.

I would be more likely to crap out gold then to see Capcom go back to their more strategical ways in their SF games. However, I'll still most likely get SSF:IV, so Capcom would have "won" in the end, the reason being is that, I've always been a big fan of Guy, and would really like to try him. [/B]

I use to say the same things about Sagat that you're sayin' now and I got ridiculed beyond belief. Especially since peeps knew I mained Sagat. They thought I was just some fanboi who was defendin'im. You could look at the fact that Sagat isn't even in the top 5 places in most American tourneys. Then they would rave on and on about how that wasn't the case in Japan which is true except that, despite the fact that the tourneys are saturated wit Sagat's, Sagat still rarely wins 1st place. But guys like Daigo (1 of the top SFIV players in Japan) mains Ryu over Sagat and Daigo lost to some American dude wit Dhalsim in a money match. People just refuse to take the time and effort to learn how to beat a character. Instead, they just wanna go on to the internets and steal everyone's strategy and hop on bandwagons.

I must say tho, I like Ultras and Supers and I've said why already. At the end of the day it's all preference, but I don't see them ever leavin' the SF series or any other 2D fighter. If you don't want super universal options than I guess Tekken and Virtua Fighter are your games. Like I say to people all the time, "Yes, Ultras and Supers can lead to table turners for the undeserved, but for the truly skilled, Ultras can also put the nail in the coffin for the chump who never stood a chance or the worthy foe who phucked up at a crucial moment." If you're good, you can avoid Ultracides consistently and pull out Ultra setups of your own. They exist to turn the tide, that's why you have to get beat up to do them. It's just new mechanic that you'll have to cope wit and exploit if you wanna play seriously. If you don't wanna take the time to do that, then SFIV is not for you, that's if you play just to win rather than play for fun, like me. I have seen whole first to 4 matches with no one usin' an Ultra, because the opportunity never arose and only noobs bust out random Ultra. And if an Ultra isn't bein used as a counter measure or in a combo, it's bein' used for chip damage to win a match or not give an opponent a Perfect. I personally don't think SFIV focuses too much on Ultras.

well isnt it safe to say that its easier to get good results from sagat, than ryu or gouki?.. at least thats how I see it.. granted I'm not even that good at the game at all.. I'd 'like' to be.. but I dont really play too long before the game starts to annoy the crap out of me with how everything I got used to in SF2 got thrown out the damn window

Things I miss are shoryu's being invulnerable on startup.. tatsu's having projectile immunity / not sucking.. projectiles actually causing damage

I mean like.. you know those videos where some dude lands right in front of a damn tiger shot and then shoryus through it.. then another one comes and he tatsu's over it.. I love that shit

in this respect.. I find it amazing that these top players manage to adapt to every new fighter that comes out..and still seem to enjoy the games

My biggest problem with Supers/Ultra's is that they can shift the tide to your advantage far too easily. That is my absolutely biggest beef with them, if say, they only took off damage to say equivelant to a FP, then yes, I wouldn't mind them being in.

Some may say "what only a fp damage equivelant" however think of this, they would have invulnerability and they would beat out normals. That way, you don't win on landing Supers and Ultras but on zoning, spacing and footsies, the foundation of what made SF great.

Also, VF and Tekken don't play in the sameway as SF does, the strategical aspects are very different due to one game being only a 2-D and the other two being 3-D. Lastly, Tekken as of late has been absolute garbage in standards of strategy, and much, much worse on that level in contrast to SF:IV.

So yeah, I hate supers and ultra's...they dictate the match far too much, where as the real main strategy of SF should be the deciding factor. Just look to watch those "high level" matches and see how many times an Ultra bails out a player for playing like absolute garbage that round. In OG SF, that losing player would have had to sweat and played near to perfection to come back and win, which is what it should be.

Yes, people have preferences, but to me, Supers and Ultra's are something that devalues the fundamental aspects of this game, its inherently visible when current top players today in their fundamentals are vastly inferior to the top SF players of old.

To Satsu, I can agree with you, Sagat can bring easier success to a player due to the nature of how he plays. If your a player that really doesn't know how to deal with projectiles, Sagat can flat out destroy you, however I just wanted people to realize that Sagat has more handicaps and flaws then either Ryu or Gouki. Not only that, but these flaws can be capitalized upon when playing against Sagat.

I also agree with you on projectiles, they do terrible damage, and Shoryuken should have full invincibility, however if you added that in again, watch the trail of people who'll weep and cry over how they have "become too cheap". Believe me, it will happen, to me, raising the damage on them would definitely make them more effective, however they will never be SFII effective anymore. Simply because characters now have ways to get around projectiles.

For me, I personally hate all of that "rushing down" crap, which is why I feel projectiles need to be more beefy, that way characters like Ryu can truly make you come to them, forcing you to play to his advantage. It is without question, that characters who can zone will develop players to become better at the fundamentals of SF, because it will force you the player to really having to deal with the situation, thus making you find ways to get around them strategically and in some cases to make it to your advantage.

Fundamentals for SF are still there in SF:IV, just nowhere to the level it once was after all of these Universal Grades. I will note that in contrast to SFIII, SF:IV is leaps and bounds a much better game.

However, I'm probably a walking contradiction, because as soon as SSF:IV comes out...I'll probably buy the game anyhow, rofl...😆

I get exactly what your sayin'. I just don't think the Ultras are THAT easy to use against people who know what they're doin'.

For instance, a guy made some serious mistakes through out the match and his opponent is too skilled to be caught by a random Ultra. It takes thought, time, and strategy to find an opening to use this Ultra to turn the tide. When he finally does make a mistake, he pounces and hits with his Ultra to win the match.

1. The guy who got the beat down in the beginning still has enough sense and skill to know when to use the Ultra and how to use the Ultra to make it count for him. It's not easy to land those suckers on people who aint noobs.

2. The guy who was handin' out the beat down at 1st had the basics skills down, zonin', footsies etc, but failed to take advantage of the new Ultra system. He didn't know how to avoid it so he could counter wit his own and end the fight once and for all wit a blazing spectacular finish.

3. The basics in SFII are obviously present cuz you gotta go to blows for the Ultra gauge to even fill in the 1st place.

4. There are only a few characters whose Ultras do glaringly more than 60% damage to the life bar and those characters who have high damaging Ultras have noticeable flaws somewhere else. This means that in order to die by an Ultra, you have to have at least 30 to 40% of your life gone already. That also means you most likely have a nearly full to full Ultra gauge yourself. Not only are you winning, you have an Ultra to use. How he lands his Ultra to take you out and you fail to use your Ultra to finish him up is clearly a blow to your skill, not to the mechanics of the game. The guy with the clear upper hand in basic skills lacks balance and only uses what he knows from previous SF games. He has what it takes to run the race, he just aint got enough skill to finish.

That's just how I see it, tho.

Btw, I also think that Ultras doin' FP damage (maybe a lil' more} and have the ability to rape normals would be a MUCH better idea. But I also think the way it's done now isn't terribly wrong. Maybe I just don't have as much of a feel for SFII. I wasn't old enough to really care about VGs until SFA2.

Example of some of the crazy stuff I love to see in fighting games

you can feel the frustration of the players trying to overcome the tiger wall.. but I love their determination via using their immunes and baiting

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Originally posted by No End N Site
1. The guy who got the beat down in the beginning still has enough sense and skill to know when to use the Ultra and how to use the Ultra to make it count for him. It's not easy to land those suckers on people who aint noobs.

2. The guy who was handin' out the beat down at 1st had the basics skills down, zonin', footsies etc, but failed to take advantage of the new Ultra system. He didn't know how to avoid it so he could counter wit his own and end the fight once and for all wit a blazing spectacular finish.

3. The basics in SFII are obviously present cuz you gotta go to blows for the Ultra gauge to even fill in the 1st place

That doesn't remove the fact that the player who was losing can shift the tide to either only be losing by a margin now, or even the score, or better yet, be winning the round off of one mistake. The problems with Ultra's is that it's too effective to turn the battle into your favor for losing the entire round. It's not about playing up against noobs, because in the end, they are noobs. However up against someone of equal footing, if you are winning the battle, and your opponent is losing. It should be difficult for them to come back, it should require them to fundamentally outclass you. Not wait for a poke, and they throw SrkxxFadcxxUltra and bam, there you go.

That isn't high level skill at all, because it allows players to compensate for their lack of play within that round. You look into older SF games, winning by a sliver of life was absolutely advantageous, let alone a FP damage, however in SF games where Supers are present, winning by 60% is not a significant advantage at all, because a small mistake can make you lose nearly almost all of that, if not potentially the round.

It doesn't bring deeper strategy at all, which in turn it's doing the exact opposite affect. Because obtaining big damage is far easier to do with this Universal System. This is why current SF players today whom are considered the Best in contrast fundamentally are nowhere near up to par with old SF players, because of things such as this.

Someone like Daigo Umehara may be one of the best SF players today, however if you compare his zoning, spacing and footsies game in contrast to other Great Ryu players of their time, Daigo would not even be considered a Top Player by that standard anymore. Just for example, removing from SF:IV for a moment, and watch Daigo with his ST. Ryu, yes, an absolutely phenomenal Ryu.

However his SFII Ryu up against the best SFII Ryu's of all time, Daigo would not even be a Top-Tier Ryu player anymore, and would be Upper-Tier at best. No way he's up to par with the OG japanese Ryu players of old, and absolutely without a doubt does he even touch the breath of Tomo's Ryu.

Why? It's not even because Daigo is a terrible player at that, it's because fundamentally, due to the nature of how SF now has so many ways to land big damage, Daigo has relied less upon mastering his total fundamentals and capitalizing upon the Universal Options which are found within the SF games. So basically put, he's compensating his lack of Ryu's footsies, zoning by utilizing things such as Supers/Ultra's.

I am a great example of this concept, in SF:IV due to the nature of how it's played, I compensate my lack of footsies with Ryu because of the Ultra. Meaning, I don't have to be as good with my footsie game, because I can cover this weakness up because of my potential to land his Ultra. I adamantly admit that clearly in the game of SF:IV, and there was plenty of rounds to where I "should have" lost, however because I can easily capitalize upon small mistakes to land my Ultra, I don't need to master footsies or zoning to the same degree.

My days back in SFII: Hyper Fighting if I played with this mentality I would flat out get destroyed on a whim. Yes, fundamentally I was far, far better, because if you weren't you would not win at all. In current SF games, I can get away with such things due to easier access to big damage. So I disagree, Supers and Ultra's haven't improved the strategical aspects of SF, and they've actually hurt the fundamental aspects of what SF deep within the first place.

Ultra's play a tremendous role in the game of Street Fighter IV, considering the best characters coincidentally are the ones who utilize Ultra's the most effectively. Isn't it also coincidence that the worse characters also cannot use their Ultra's effectively either. Also note that Gouki is the only one in the Top-Tier who doesn't have a very effective linkable Ultra in contrast to Ryu or Sagat.

Originally posted by No End N Site
Btw, I also think that Ultras doin' FP damage (maybe a lil' more} and have the ability to rape normals would be a MUCH better idea. But I also think the way it's done now isn't terribly wrong. Maybe I just don't have as much of a feel for SFII. I wasn't old enough to really care about VGs until SFA2.

Ultra's "are" better per say then what we witnessed in Super Turbo, and SFIII to name a few, however it's still very lame because of what it does to the mentality of the players and the potential behind it. Also, yes, if you played SFII and saw the fundamentals of it, you would understand more of where I'm coming from.

No hate towards you No End, I'm always a debating person and you seem to know your stuff as well, much respect to that.

Satsujin, if you want a REAL notion of OG vs NG, check out this video...

Jeff (Ce. Guile) vs Daigo (CE. Sagat)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Al_A9Hp-NgY

Jeff (Ce. Guile) vs Daigo (ST. Ryu)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u9YyLKWbiXk&feature=related

I LOVE the zoning and spacing that Jeff applies in these matches, especially when his Guile vs Daigo's Ryu.

Originally posted by JustFrame
That doesn't remove the fact that the player who was losing can shift the tide to either only be losing by a margin now, or even the score, or better yet, be winning the round off of one mistake. The problems with Ultra's is that it's too effective to turn the battle into your favor for losing the entire round. It's not about playing up against noobs, because in the end, they are noobs. However up against someone of equal footing, if you are winning the battle, and your opponent is losing. It should be difficult for them to come back, it should require them to fundamentally outclass you. Not wait for a poke, and they throw SrkxxFadcxxUltra and bam, there you go.

That isn't high level skill at all, because it allows players to compensate for their lack of play within that round. You look into older SF games, winning by a sliver of life was absolutely advantageous, let alone a FP damage, however in SF games where Supers are present, winning by 60% is not a significant advantage at all, because a small mistake can make you lose nearly almost all of that, if not potentially the round.

It doesn't bring deeper strategy at all, which in turn it's doing the exact opposite affect. Because obtaining big damage is far easier to do with this Universal System. This is why current SF players today whom are considered the Best in contrast fundamentally are nowhere near up to par with old SF players, because of things such as this.

Someone like Daigo Umehara may be one of the best SF players today, however if you compare his zoning, spacing and footsies game in contrast to other Great Ryu players of their time, Daigo would not even be considered a Top Player by that standard anymore. Just for example, removing from SF:IV for a moment, and watch Daigo with his ST. Ryu, yes, an absolutely phenomenal Ryu.

However his SFII Ryu up against the best SFII Ryu's of all time, Daigo would not even be a Top-Tier Ryu player anymore, and would be Upper-Tier at best. No way he's up to par with the OG japanese Ryu players of old, and absolutely without a doubt does he even touch the breath of Tomo's Ryu.

Why? It's not even because Daigo is a terrible player at that, it's because fundamentally, due to the nature of how SF now has so many ways to land big damage, Daigo has relied less upon mastering his total fundamentals and capitalizing upon the Universal Options which are found within the SF games. So basically put, he's compensating his lack of Ryu's footsies, zoning by utilizing things such as Supers/Ultra's.

I am a great example of this concept, in SF:IV due to the nature of how it's played, I compensate my lack of footsies with Ryu because of the Ultra. Meaning, I don't have to be as good with my footsie game, because I can cover this weakness up because of my potential to land his Ultra. I adamantly admit that clearly in the game of SF:IV, and there was plenty of rounds to where I "should have" lost, however because I can easily capitalize upon small mistakes to land my Ultra, I don't need to master footsies or zoning to the same degree.

My days back in SFII: Hyper Fighting if I played with this mentality I would flat out get destroyed on a whim. Yes, fundamentally I was far, far better, because if you weren't you would not win at all. In current SF games, I can get away with such things due to easier access to big damage. So I disagree, Supers and Ultra's haven't improved the strategical aspects of SF, and they've actually hurt the fundamental aspects of what SF deep within the first place.

Ultra's play a tremendous role in the game of Street Fighter IV, considering the best characters coincidentally are the ones who utilize Ultra's the most effectively. Isn't it also coincidence that the worse characters also cannot use their Ultra's effectively either. Also note that Gouki is the only one in the Top-Tier who doesn't have a very effective linkable Ultra in contrast to Ryu or Sagat.

Ultra's "are" better per say then what we witnessed in Super Turbo, and SFIII to name a few, however it's still very lame because of what it does to the mentality of the players and the potential behind it. Also, yes, if you played SFII and saw the fundamentals of it, you would understand more of where I'm coming from.

No hate towards you No End, I'm always a debating person and you seem to know your stuff as well, much respect to that.

Satsujin, if you want a REAL notion of OG vs NG, check out this video...

Jeff (Ce. Guile) vs Daigo (CE. Sagat)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Al_A9Hp-NgY

Jeff (Ce. Guile) vs Daigo (ST. Ryu)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u9YyLKWbiXk&feature=related

I [B]LOVE the zoning and spacing that Jeff applies in these matches, especially when his Guile vs Daigo's Ryu. [/B]

Originally posted by Superherovandal
I don't know about you but that looks like a lot of spamming to me...not very skillful to me.

Do you truly know the fundamentals of Street Fighter to make an opinion? Probably not.

It's amazing to see someone make Street Fighter out to be this intricately unique fighting game.

It's about whoever's the fastest, that's it.

You can over-complicate it all you want, but that's what it comes down to. There are people who dedicate insane amounts of time to being as good as they can be, but they aren't doing anything that can't be taught. It's not a legitimate talent, at all.

The fact is, there's only so much you can do. Street Fighter will never be as varied as Tekken, it'll never have the learning curve of Tekken.

This is provable by the fact that even hardcore Street Fighter players say that there are elements of the game that can just turn it in your opponent's favour, irrespective of skill. If it was such an intricate game where skill reigned supreme, or even existed, that wouldn't be possible.

That's why S.F. players complain about people using techniques that are there to be used; it confronts them with the fact that their skill is ultimately worth nothing.

-AC

lol.. its nice to see someone who has no idea about fighting games, talk about fighting games.. let's see.. where to start..

Tekken 6 "learning curve", is basically learning your main dial-a-juggle to punish any mistake (which can even amount to a wiffed jab).. this "gameplay" that parades around as funfactor.. gets really really old after the first match

mind you, basic tekken is very fun.. I can still overcome people who fish for dial-a-juggles, but tekken has lost the elements that made it fun a very long time ago... I would say it possesses half (give or take) of the strategy it takes for a street fighter match

The "turn it out in your opponents favor" is simply referring to street fighter 4's ultra system exclusively (which is probably the only street fighter to include something that causes such a hefty amount of damage).. it has nothing to do with the street fighters of old

Also.. if its not a legitimate talent, then why isn't everyone just randomly good at fighting games?

your "skill is worth nothing" only holds true if you're not making money off of your ability.. as there is a vast variation of fighting gamers out there..

casual...semi-casual...hardcore...pro...etc

I would probably even compare this to quake 3.. some people just dont have what it takes to be at the top.. you can sit there and raise / lower your sensitivity and time the armor pickups all you want

if it simply boiled down to who's fastest.. there would be alooooot more top players out there.. its simply not the case.. but nice try at over-simplification

Example of "Omg this is soooo simple and only requires speed"
YouTube video

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
It's amazing to see someone make Street Fighter out to be this intricately unique fighting game.

It's about whoever's the fastest, that's it.

You can over-complicate it all you want, but that's what it comes down to. There are people who dedicate insane amounts of time to being as good as they can be, but they aren't doing anything that can't be taught. It's not a legitimate talent, at all.

The fact is, there's only so much you can do. Street Fighter will never be as varied as Tekken, it'll never have the learning curve of Tekken.

This is provable by the fact that even hardcore Street Fighter players say that there are elements of the game that can just turn it in your opponent's favour, irrespective of skill. If it was such an intricate game where skill reigned supreme, or even existed, that wouldn't be possible.

That's why S.F. players complain about people using techniques that are there to be used; it confronts them with the fact that their skill is ultimately worth nothing.

-AC

Someone sounds like a Tekken fanboi. Why else would you come out of no where and say things like this? You've been wantin' to say that for a while now, haven't you?

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
It's amazing to see someone make Street Fighter out to be this intricately unique fighting game.

It's about whoever's the fastest, that's it.

You're wrong. You sound like someone who regularly gets asshandled and therefore doesn't credit the game with it's due. Which is a shame because you sound like a smart guy, who has an ignorant stance.

Tekken has not been highly strategical since Post-Tekken 4, anything starting with 5 onward is a joke to the franchise and the series in the strategy aspects. I've explained these notions quite enough already within the Tekken thread and do not need to do the same thing here.

Fact is, although SF:IV may not be the most strategical SF game of all time, it is however still 25x more strategical then the current Tekken 6 out there. As much as I hate Universal Options in SF:IV, they are indeed much, much worse in Tekken.

Btw, the most strategical SF game is more advanced then even the most strategical Tekken game.

Being the "fastest" is beneficial without a doubt, especially in a game of fighting games. However if you don't have skill, knowledge and execution with that, you are as good as dead. Tomo Ohira had the fastest reaction time in the SFII Era, however you honestly believe with just "being fast" that he would have ruled WW, CE, HF and Super with it?

Nobody who is a top player can simply rely upon being fast to win only, it's an accumulation of everything. If you are Ryu vs Sagat and you are fast, but you don't have the knowledge of the match up, how do you expect to win? If you are fast, and they throw out a whiffed attack and you don't know what to do in order to punish it according how do you win?

I find it obnoxious that you would say such a thing, because "Had" Street Fighter not have any depth to it's play, we should have shoved this series to the pavement years ago. However it's over 20+ yrs old (judging by your post the game's been alive longer then you have) and this game is still one of the most most popular and heavily competed fighting games of all time. So yes, I'm pretty positive that SF as a FG series has brought some good strategy vs strategy to the table.