Originally posted by JustFrame
http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/8982/1211420799731ou1.jpgThere try that again, hopefully that does work 😄
Thanks for the link.
That game looks great, so you should make a separate thread for it. 👆
Originally posted by JustFrame
A shoryuken has a high risk, high reward factor, a Shoryuken is Nowhere near as good as Parry, and let me explain to you why.A Shoryuken is invincible yes, however, once you up in the air and on your way down, you've got a "hit me for free" sign labeled on you.
Not only that, but a Shoryuken can be Baited and Punished on reaction.
A Parry Has Absolutely No Whiff Animations, but most importantly, you the opponent cannot Punish a Parry on Reaction, but only Anticipation (a.k.a. Guessing).
A Parry is very low risk and extremely high reward, just watch the match up of Daigo vs Valle at Evo and you'll see it as plain as day.
Daigo and Valle where throwing out Option-Select Parries like 209348092389024384 times, and where not getting punished it for it at all.
Yet these guys are arguably two of the Best 3S players in the world.
So No, A Shoryuken is absolutely nowhere near as useful or as powerful as a Parry.
You tell me what's more dangerous, a Move you can punish on reaction, or a move you have to punish on anticipation?
Pretty easy answer.
A Shoryuken is nothing but an AA, a Parry is useful in ALL aspects and can potentially stop every move in the game besides Throws.
I would go on into more detail, however I shouldn't need too, Parry was a horrible idea, however SFIII itself was fun, just not as deep or as strategic as the SFII series.
You know, there is this thing called throwing that negates all that random stuff.
Did you even play that game much?
I have played lots and lots of SF III: Thrid Strike. It is not random and makes you actually have to set up rather than just repeat the same tactics over and over. And the revenge meter in SFIV is dumb. Now if I outsmart a guy that has more skill than me, I'm right back at square one if he gets that one move off.
Originally posted by chithappens
You know, there is this thing called throwing that negates all that random stuff.Did you even play that game much?
I have played lots and lots of SF III: Thrid Strike. It is not random and makes you actually have to set up rather than just repeat the same tactics over and over. And the revenge meter in SFIV is dumb. Now if I outsmart a guy that has more skill than me, I'm right back at square one if he gets that one move off.
I'll explain it to you really, really simply...
In SFIII, even at the highest lvls, have you ever noticed that everyone plays with the Rushdown+high/low mixup+semi-grappling mentality?
Why? You ask?
Because with the addition of Parry, it has removed alot of the character individuality and many of the lvl of strategies that was once thriving in the SF Series.
The whole notion of "same tactics" I'm quite sure is usually interpreted with the notion of the "firball" am I correct?
However, if anyone has ever played Pre-SFIII, one would know that Fireballs are great because they provide a threat from all corners of the stage.
This makes it so that you not just sitting there throwing whiffed attacks to build up meter, or that your always resorting to having to come in close.
This provides an obstacle to a character who doesn't have a projectile, forcing them to come to you. Adding a whole other lvl of mindgames and strategies that are involved.
None of these are almost ever seen in SFIII...Why? Parry is the biggest and prime example.
It has removed so much of the qualities of the projectile that it's only real uses are out of Ex-Options, which is atrocious.
Let me set an example down...
Ryu vs Guile in SF:II.
Say I'm Ryu and I pin Guile to the corner, standing outside of sweep range, yet close enough for jump in range. I start to pummel Guile with Hadouken's.
At this range, Guile is extremely limited on the options that he has, because...
1. He did not play well enough, and thus was put in a bad situation...which was at the end of the stage.
2. Any of the options that he does to try and get out of the strategical advantage that Ryu now has, will be a risk for himself.
Guile at this point can resort to jumping upward to avoid blocking Hadouken's, otherwise, he can shoot a SB to stop a Hadouken advancing forward with either a Knee-Bazooka or a walk forward c.mk.
He could always try to take the risk of jumping forward.
However, me being Ryu, I am at a huge advantage, for putting the Guile player in such a bad situation.
I now have different strategical options that I can dish out on Guile...
1. If Guile throws out a SB at this range, even if he tries to move forward with a knee bazooka, I'll still be safe.
2. If Guile walks forward to throw out a c.mk, he'll still be too far away to land it, thus, I could punish it with my own c.fk.
3. If Guile plans to jump forward, I an able to recover fast enough to land a punishing AA or Shoryuken on him, sending him back to square one.
So if you notice, on both sides of the courts, the Ryu player has the distinct advantage, because he's pinned Guile into a bad situation and one of the most important factors...Both players are trying guess on which strategy the other will be utilizing next.
However, let's just say that Guile was "in fact" in SFIII and Ryu had Guile within the same situation at the corner.
Well then, you can completely throw away 99.9% of what I said above away, simply because Guile being pinned at the corner can potentially negate practically everything I've stated above away, but a simple tap forward or down.
Guile does not need to projectiles, because if I throw out a Hadouken, Guile could ParryXXXPunish me without hesitation.
Guile can also jump in on me with no real fear, simply because if I try to take the gamble of throwing a Shoryuken. He could easily parry me, thus setting me into a horrible situation.
In fact, in situations like these, you'll have noticed that every 3S players, yes, even Top 3S players will resort to coming in, throwing out whiffed attacks, and going for throws, or throwing out attacks least likely to get parried. It isn't even a guess of strategy, but a guessing of just simply guessing as to "I thought you where going to do this, but you did that and I was surprised".
Parry removed so much of the character individuality of the characters. Just simply look at Remy for example...mind explaining to me why Remy has to rushdown????
He was obviously built with Guile like properties, that means he was meant to be able to space/zone with his LoV's (projectiles)....yet he just cannot do it even remotely consistently due to parry.
How about a character like Necro...he can't even zone with his limbs like what Dhalsim could do in SFII, simple answer...Parry. With his long limbs being slow, it's easily parried and easily punished, resulting in Necro again, having to rushdown.
You look at SFII and you'll see a whole range of character variety.
Sagat pummels you to death with Low Tiger Shots forcing you the player to having to come in.
Guile plays with a dominant spacing/zoning game with his SB's that he can follow up after, poking you to submission or rushing down after the SB.
Balrog is a powerhouse rushdown character, with his attacks, that make it so that he's always in your face, with his powerful throw mixups and pokes.
Yet if you look at SFIII...almost everyone plays the same, regardless of who you are.
Do you ever see a Ryu player trying to zone somebody from full range with projectiles? NO.
Do you see Necro players trying to zone poke with his limbs? NO.
Do you see Remy utilizing his LoV's with any power strategical advantage? NO.
Again, the strength of Parry is atrocious, it has resorted to nothing but making it that you are doing moves least likely to get parried. It forces you the player to having to rush down with high/low mixups and doing tons of throws.
Just look at the Top 3 out of the Top 4 characters, they all play with this mentality. Only Yun gets away from this category slightly is because Genei-Jin can be built by him sitting back 24/7 throwing whiffed attacks to activate it.
However, Chunli, Ken, Makoto all play with this mentality, in fact, everyone else plays with this mentality. There is absolutely no strategical advantage to putting someone into the corner, simply because they can get out of it so easily.
Your Best Defensive and Most Powerful Offensive Tool which if you've noticed by now is Parry, will always be there. It can potentially negate everything besides throws.
That's why even at the highest lvls, there are tons of option select Parries, that happen. Just watch the video of Valle and Daigo, there's tons in there, in which they are doing option selects off the wall.
It goes to show you, just how safe parry is, and just how powerful it really is. Because so much of the strategy revolves around avoiding to get parried.
The fact that even the person who has the advantage has to second guess even his best options, simply because the opponent knows the best options and can potentially swing the match in his/her favor on a right guess is garbage.
That is simply not a highly strategical fighting game, in fact, even Top SFIII players, just to name one, Ed Ma has simply stated that SFIII is very Random due to Parry.
Trying to debate this is pointless, because it's been shown that Pre-SFIII games such as SFII where far more strategical and had far more character individuality.
Obviously it's opinion on what you like and prefer, however this absolutely no arguement on which SF game provided you with more strategical value.
SFIII Series was no where even close to what SFII brought if your talking from a strategy vs strategy base.
As for Revenge Meter with the Ultra's, I'd rather have that then Parry, the mere fact that Ultra's can only really happen once within a round, and the notion that you have to actually come in, and take the risk of trying to land it makes it 100X better then Parry.
Parry is useable all the time, everytime, every round, every second, although I do not particularly like the Revenge Meter and Ultra's if I had to pick and choose, they are the lesser evil over Parry.
As for Capcom vs Tatsunoko...here are some more images from this game...
http://www.famitsu.com/game/news/1215298_1124.html
This game looks awesome, I'm hoping that they put Dante in there to represent Capcom as well. My gosh, I cannot wait to play it, this game looks to be alot like a Marvel vs Capcom type game.
If so, it'll most likely be good, so here's to hoping. I cannot wait to see actual videos of it in movement in the near future!
Frame, if you're referring to strategy as continuous projectile spamming (which, from most SFII competitions is what I've seen) then that's not really much of a strategy. The other player has pretty much no chance, and it's not much of a match then. 3rd Strike is more intensive and interesting, IMO.
Originally posted by SaTsuJiN
ok, but at the same time, do you feel that its right that ryu can overpower guile that way simply because his fireball is easier to perform?
Should we argue that Guile has arguably one of the BEST projectiles in the game? Should we argue that Zangief can get in on a character and destroy you even without the use of a powerful projectile?
Should we argue that Balrog is a Top Tier character in ST even though he doesn't even have a projectile and has been one of the best Anti-Ryu characters in the game since he first was playable in SFII?
Or how about Claw? He fights incredibly well up against Ryu, and he has no projectile to show for it.
Ryu overpowers Guile, is because Guile relys heavily upon Sonic Booms, they are a necessity to his strategy.
One also has to remember, that the match up of Ryu vs Guile, although slightly in Ryu's favor is not a landslide win.
If you don't know how to space with your Hadouken's, Ryu can easily get killed by Guile, how so?
Guile has a nearly instant recovery on his projectiles, let's just say this. If Guile shoots a SB and Ryu shoots a Hadouken from outside sweep range, Guile recovers instantly.
Allowing him to come in on Ryu, either landing a c.mk, or a s.fp. These knock Ryu back, putting Guile into a spacing position once again.
From here on, if Ryu does the mistake of throwing a Hadouken, Guile can jump forward and land an attack on Ryu. Either that, if Ryu just simply stands there, Guile's at a position to launch another SB.
At this range, Ryu either has to anticipate a SB and do a Hurricane Kick to stuff Guile out, however if he does it too late. A Guile can recover and AA him for free.
Either that, a Ryu does a Hurricane Kick, while Guile anticipates this and does an AA to stuff him out. The only true advantage that Ryu has, is either from full screen, or when Ryu pins a Guile to the corner.
My situation that I had set up, was simply Ryu already putting Guile into a horrible situation. Meaning, a situation in which Ryu as a character, has a clear distinct advantage over Guile.
Something that is clearly missing in SF games that have the Parry System in it.
Originally posted by DarkC
Frame, if you're referring to strategy as continuous projectile spamming (which, from most SFII competitions is what I've seen) then that's not really much of a strategy. The other player has pretty much no chance, and it's not much of a match then. 3rd Strike is more intensive and interesting, IMO.
Your absolutely wrong on so many lvls, nobody who takes SFII seriously from before would ever state Firballs as just simply spamming.
I guarantee you, go out to a tournament, pick someone like Sagat and see if you can just simply Low Tiger someone to death without proper knowledge of how to space with them before hand.
You will outright get destroyed by players for free with that mentality. I am myself since SFII first began, have been a Ryu player, and I'll tell you this straight out, it simply is not easy to space someone with Hadouken's.
Simply because characters have ways around projectiles, some obviously better then others. The only real character in SFII who gets killed by Ryu's Hadouken is E. Honda, everyone else either just has a small disadvantage or else can get around it very well, or extremely well.
Take for example SFII:HF, where Ryu is clearly the #1 best character in the game.
Yet if you look at his match ups...3 of his most difficult matchups are characters who have No Fireballs within their arsenal.
Blanka, Claw (Vega), and Balrog, why?
Blanka has an extremely fast in jump, allowing him to rush in on Ryu and with the fast jump in, gives him a distinct advantage in punishing Ryu before he can recover from the Hadouken. Most importantly, Blanka has the vertical Roll, and his long range outranges all of Ryu's best pokes, making Blanka a difficult character for Ryu to contend with.
Vega is the samething as Blanka, arguably maybe even better due to effective pokes, and he has his sliding attack. Even if it trades hits with Ryu on the Hadouken, although Claw will get hit, Ryu will be knocked down, giving Claw the huge advantage.
Not only that, Claw's jump is even better then Blanka's, due to it having a lower jump, but just as fast. This allowed Claw a powerful and deadly jump in on Ryu, which halted his projectile useage greatly.
Balrog is arguably the most powerful character to counter Ryu in HF, due to him having the Inv. Turn punch, this can actually almost completely shut down Ryu's projectile gaming.
Resulting Ryu into having to utilize tick throws, and knockdowns to score an advantage, removing Ryu completely from his game.
So no, your wrong, projectile spamming is not even the case. Only Sagat, Ryu can use it to strong advantages, Ken to a much lesser extent, Guile's is powerful, but it's not utilized in the same fashion.
Projectiles are far from being just called spamming.
I understand everything you are saying, I just disagree with your points concerning parrying.
I have played an extensive amount of SFIII: Third Strike. Part of parrying is dealing with player style. People tend to play very similar ways with certain players and that's what makes it seem so off key (examples of moves you "know are coming because this is all everyone does" include Ken's MP, HP, Shoryu, Shoryu). When a person actually changes some of the things they do, it's very, very dangerous to attempt a parry. I guess you are suggesting a whiff animation but it's just a chess match. It's not clear if they parry up or down but your job is to use overheads, throws, EXs, and combos to screw it up. Hell, I can beat most of the top ranked players on XBOX LIVE (tag is "drowning fishs"😉 and they are not scrubs. They just take playing with some patience, like any game once you learn the mechanics.
SF II is a different sort of game that's really hard to compare. Game speed and EX moves alone create a completely different feel. For example, in SF III, you can try to attack someone as you wake up (low or high) you can roll-counter off the ground (making you back up), or you can throw. The latter two options are not there in SF II.
Originally posted by chithappens
I understand everything you are saying, I just disagree with your points concerning parrying.I have played an extensive amount of SFIII: Third Strike. Part of parrying is dealing with player style. People tend to play very similar ways with certain players and that's what makes it seem so off key (examples of moves you "know are coming because this is all everyone does" include Ken's MP, HP, Shoryu, Shoryu). When a person actually changes some of the things they do, it's very, very dangerous to attempt a parry.
Read my post again, and watch Daigo vs Valle match up, they are arguably two of the best 3S players from their country, yet they are option select parrying like there's no tomorrow.
You don't realize this, something like a Shoryuken can be punished on reaction. A Parry can only be Punished on Anticipation.
There is absolutely no way of punishing a Parry on reaction, because you can't see it happen. Your statement above is exactly why Parry completely blows.
Because what your signifying above is basically "guessing what the opponent will be doing". Just think for a minute here...Ken's waiting to do an AA with Shoryuken right.
However, he ends up getting parried and punished for it, then he resorts to guessing to himself "Should I do Shoryuken, or not?" Then when the opponent jumps at you, you end up not doing anything and instead go for a throw.
The next time your opponent instead throws out an attack and you end up parrying and punishing him for it. The next time, he'll decide to just jump in without throwing out anything at all.
ALL of these are nothing but guessing, because both of the players are basically guessing themselves "What should I be doing next now?"
That's not strategy at all, because you aren't even relying upon an effective offense or defense, your simply guessing even at what you yourself are doing due to parry.
Originally posted by chithappens
I guess you are suggesting a whiff animation but it's just a chess match. It's not clear if they parry up or down but your job is to use overheads, throws, EXs, and combos to screw it up. Hell, I can beat most of the top ranked players on XBOX LIVE (tag is "drowning fishs"😉 and they are not scrubs. They just take playing with some patience, like any game once you learn the mechanics.
SFIII is nowhere near that of a Chess game, SFII is the Chess game of SF games without a doubt.
Chess revolves in you setting up your opponent into the worst position and limiting them on their attacks and what they can do, with a distinct strategy.
Then you proceed to punish them accordingly to your set plan.
3S is nothing like this, because it's like playing Chess with a Random Chance Factor. Getting Parried when you attack and having it completely negated is like if your playing Chess, you set to attack an opponent. You Take out his Queen, then all of a sudden, that attack didn't work, and the Queen is still alive.
That's nothing and nowhere near like Chess, SFII has set strategies, into which you can think 3-5 stages ahead of what your already doing.
3S is nothing like that, because your best strategy isn't always your best strategy, simply because your opponent knows it and can negate all of it's strengths.
Let's Compare...
Hugo compared to Zangief....
Hugo when he scores a knockdown gains an advantage, however he does not gain nowhere near the same advantage as someone like Zangief within the same situation, because of Parry.
Most of Hugo's best strengths are not always chosen by the player, simply because the opponent knows it and can negate it with a tap. Thus Hugo has to rely upon whiff attacks, and baits into throws, all of these again are still with the Hugo, even though he has the clear advantage guessing even his own strategy, even though he has the advantage.
However, Zangief within the same situation has an even bigger advantage then Hugo, simply because to counter Zangief, you the opponent will actually have to find a way to truly counter Zangief's advantages.
On a knockdown, Zangief can go into a c.mk on block into SPD, or a cross up into his high low jabs into SPD, or a jump in that looks like a cross up but isn't and instead connects in front of the opponent.
The player with Zangief can utilize his best strategies, maximizing Zangief's chances of keeping the advantage.
The power of parry is so effective, if you've seen, played at high lvl 3S, you'll have noticed that many players will Tap forward, then quickly go d/b, or tap down then quickly go d/b.
That kind of option select parry is some of the most atrocious things that happens, even at the highest lvls of 3S play. Which is the notion of You can only punish parry on anticipation.
The fact that the only way to punish a Parry is to Guess that it will be happening. So how would that be equivalent to say a Shoryuken, in which you can see happen, in which you can bait and in which you can punish on reaction.
If you noticed, in 3S, matches turn on a dime, simply because of one corrected guess. That is the reason why even Top 3S Players are resorted to utilizing whiffed attacks, high/low mixups and semi-grappling throughout matches within 3S.
Why? Because all other options are almost rendered obsolete with Parry. There is almost no character individuality and no long/mid range strategies that are involved.
Obviously there is some strategy in 3S, however compared to SFII, it's like on a toddler's lvl.
Simply because the players always have to guess even their own advantage strategies, this is simply no where near strategical gameplay of what was present in the Pre-SFIII games, and sorry to say, but what really, really made SF an excellent game in the past.
You talk to Any of the Top Players of 3S and they'll tell you it's even random at the highest lvls due to the power of the Parry System.
Originally posted by chithappens
SF II is a different sort of game that's really hard to compare. Game speed and EX moves alone create a completely different feel. For example, in SF III, you can try to attack someone as you wake up (low or high) you can roll-counter off the ground (making you back up), or you can throw. The latter two options are not there in SF II.
EX-Options do not create anything awesome "new" out of SFIII, the only thing that it's done is make crappy specials actually effective. Like the Hadouken for example...seriously, name a good 3S Ryu Player who actually "tries" to space with Hadoukens?
Using it outside of sweep range, or on confirm strings is not a form of a spacing either. In fact, look at how garbage projectiles are in 3S...you might as well play 3S in a phone booth, simply because all forms of fights are close quarters.
Parry has done all of these, and rolling is nothing new, and does not add a whole new lvl of gameplay to SFIII. In fact, it's uses are rare, due to the fact that rolling can outright get you killed.
SFII and SFIII indeed are two very different games, however there is a fine distinction between which SF game was the far more strategical one, and that is definetly SFII, not SFIII.
Obviously, preference on what you like more is clearly opinion, however there is no opinion, but a clear cut fact as to which game brought more depth.
In case people have been wondering, Ryu no longer looks like a damn neaderthal in SF:IV anymore.
Just look at the vastly huge improvements with this link with a picture of Ryu previously to the Ryu now (Ryu previously is on top, while Ryu present is on the bottom)
This is a huge change, because now Ryu actually actually looks like Ryu, which brings a jump of joy to my eyes...I really hated how he looked previously in SF:IV, however this one is a vast improvement from the old version.
Thumbs Up To Capcom!!!
http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh306/tuanlesoleil/different.jpg
Honestly, its the same geometry as before.. its just painted up even worse now, IMO
old ryu looked much better... he's old age-wise, and that should reflect on his physical appearance.. he looks like friggin 20 years old there.. ridiculous.. and his arms look like crap, and his face is flat-shaded as all hell.. that prolly took the modeler like 3 hours for that repaint, lmao
This Ryu looks alot like SFIII Ryu, also, why shouldn't Ryu look like he's in his 20's? That doesn't make any sense, considering in SFIII, Ryu is only 32 Years old.
This takes place after SFII, so Ryu is at least 28 or 29 yrs old, which makes absolute and perfect sense to why he looks young. I do agree, that Ryu is buff in here, however Ryu is also very buff in SFIII.
Hasn't anyone seen his artwork, Ryu is buff, but I will admit, I don't like how Ryu's body looks overall in SF:IV, however this face is a vast improvement over his neaderthal one from the previous SF:IV. That goes to show, that Capcom is actually listening to us, for better or for worse.
Originally posted by JustFrameI dont know.. but the way I see things.. if you're fighting for a living.. you shouldnt look like you stepped out of a L'oreal commercial, or a GQ magazine.. your body should have injuries, and wear-n-tear... this ryu looks too bishi for me.. he needs just a touch of age.. however slight that may be
This Ryu looks alot like SFIII Ryu, also, why shouldn't Ryu look like he's in his 20's? That doesn't make any sense, considering in SFIII, Ryu is only 32 Years old.This takes place after SFII, so Ryu is at least 28 or 29 yrs old, which makes absolute and perfect sense to why he looks young. I do agree, that Ryu is buff in here, however Ryu is also very buff in SFIII.
Hasn't anyone seen his artwork, Ryu is buff, but I will admit, I don't like how Ryu's body looks overall in SF:IV, however this face is a vast improvement over his neaderthal one from the previous SF:IV. That goes to show, that Capcom is actually listening to us, for better or for worse.
28 or 29 may look young for the ordinary person, but I think for a person who fights as much as he does, it should change things just a bit
Originally posted by SaTsuJiN
I dont know.. but the way I see things.. if you're fighting for a living.. you shouldnt look like you stepped out of a L'oreal commercial, or a GQ magazine.. your body should have injuries, and wear-n-tear... this ryu looks too bishi for me.. he needs just a touch of age.. however slight that may be28 or 29 may look young for the ordinary person, but I think for a person who fights as much as he does, it should change things just a bit
He looks nowhere near Bishi, if you want the Bishi look, you should go and look at a character like Vega (Claw). Now he's got the Bishi look, this version of Ryu the newly modified one looks alot in close resemblance to the way that Ryu was drawn for Super Street Fighter II onward.
With the frowning face and fierce look always, which fits more into relation to how Ryu should look instead of his first SF:IV incarnation. There is no way this Ryu looks Bishi, because when I think of Bishi, I'm thinking of characters like Kyo Kusanagi, or hell 80% of the KoF Cast...Now That's Bishi.
Lastly, Ryu doesn't have any significant tears, scars, etc on him. Considering SFIII Ryu had no tell tale signs of any significant scars, and this takes place before SFIII.
In fact, even looking at Gouki, someone who without a doubt has far more fighting experience over Ryu also himself has no huge distinct scar or wear and tear for that matter.
This is a good fit for Ryu, and a far greater upgrade from his older SF:IV version.
All doubts I had about this game are out the window, I just got confirmation from my cousin who went to the AOU and he says the game was great he also said that people were lined up for hours to play the game and that they attempted to stay at the cabinets for as long as possible. "All that for an incomplete SF game he says?" He obviously doesn't understand how awesome SF is.
Although the graphics are no doubt "different" from what most SF fans are use to, the game looks awesome with great detail and awesome looking supers and what seems to be "Ultras". The facial expressions, scars and bruises on the characters look damn good, as well, IMO.
I can't wait for this game to come out. AND I know a tiny little secret about every bodies favorite red haired, gi wearing, island sinking, "karate dude".
