Originally posted by Sado22
dude, there is no claims that are facts. i said SF4 looks fugly, and i never pretended it was a fact. it was my opinion. i said SF4 was boring. lots of people here agree with me on that. I said SF4 isn't offering anything new and that too has people agreeing with me (to the point that people are defending it saying that its nostalgia). these are all my opinions and things i've noticed about the game. the day SF4 offers good graphics, good new characters, a new fighting system (SF3 for instance), I will be happy. as of now though, SF4 sucks. just like you think its the best game there out today.
its subjective. the only person acting like what they are saying is a fact...is you.
Honestly, name me any fighting game series that long and subjective that's new? Give one from your precious Tekken series? Name me something new from it that makes the game completely unique from the rest of the other Tekken games from Tekken 6? Btw, Bound isn't anything jaw dropping for the game engine either, consider it made things worse, then better.
The last time, Tekken felt different was Tekken 4, and look where that wen real fast. SFIII was terrible period, the Parry System alone devalued the entire game of SFIII to a high/low mixup with throws thrown in. Answer to your question is, you can't make it "entirely" new, I'm sorry to say, graphics can be very opinionated (although SF:IV went for an anime/cartoony look on purpose where as others such as Virtua Fighter went for a realistic look for their characters, which are two totally different artwork approaches). The fact is, SF:IV plays unique enough that it doesn't even feel like SFII or SFIII, seemingly having both those into one, yet being something totally different, so I don't see how this isn't a different game, when in fact it is.
Good new characters??? Viper is an absolute beast here, she's one of the strongest competitors in the entire game of SF:IV, she's aggressive, has crazy mixups, and some of the craziest cross ups in the game along with a solid setup for Ultras. Abel may not be in the same league, however he is unique in itself, and where as characters like Gief as a grappler may struggle against fireball characters such as Ryu, Abel actually fights quite solidly up against them due to his grab set ups.
How about Seth, a great new boss who's actually not broken and is a viable competitive character. Subjective or not, the fact is, your opinion on the game being "trash" is mute because you only have basic knowledge of the game, and thus making your statements shallow and poorly represented.
Didn't I say it's okay to dislike a game, if you can make thorough statements to a well established opinion? Since when have you done so within your last 5+ pots?
Originally posted by Sado22
to be honest, i don't know what your issue is. someone shows up here and says tekken is a better game and all of a sudden two guys start taking it personally. why is that? i asked you that straight up last time and you didn't answer. you just made a claim about SF4 being the best game there is. but you're missing the thing here:
its your OPINION and it aint a fact. its all subjective. only two people going around having a problem with opinion here: you and trickster.
Please, don't point the finger here, firstly you say Tekken is better...yet you can't even make a remotely good reason why you think it's better. The fact is, you don't even know enough about both games to even make a plausible opinion. This is why Trickster and I are going "Hmm...this guy is just talking rubbish". Simply because in the end, you are, firstly, if you know some solid depth for both games and gave out credible reasons, then I would be able to respect your opinion, however with what you've stated thus far, it's just scrub talk I'm sorry to say.
Again, it's not like I've come across people who didn't like Street Fighter IV...however those who didn't gave more thorough statements besides "It plays the same...Seth is broken...Tiger is cheap!" They go beyond that notion.
Originally posted by Sado22
nothing sad about not going to arcades to play a game (that i played several times before) that [b]I don't want to play because it bored me. its like me asking you to watch a movie that you didn't like or a series you're not interested in. do you see?
i think you have selective amnesia honestly. i just said, very clearly, that i played SF4 on the arcades (many times) and with friends...and i didn't like it. there's nothing sad about it. at all. the only thing sad is that you're panties are all in a bundle because i don't like the game you like. pucker up, son. 'tis how the world is.[/B]
Dude, if you play now...and don't take it serious anymore...how in the world do you make the claim you play in Tournies all the time? Seriously, you are again lying to everyone on this thread, because you say you did one thing but now all of a sudden you just don't even care all of a sudden.
Really, so your saying you played tournies all the time, but out of the blue, you just don't care anymore? I mean, seriously, make up your mind, you went from "I hate the game" to "I play in tournies all the time" to "I just don't care anymore". Which one is it?
Originally posted by Sado22
its not an argument. i said i don't like console and all of a sudden you guys are calling me sad and whatnot. i'm not a console person. doesn't make me less of a player. I've practically wiped the floor with cats who own SF and KoF on 3 consoles. it aint about consoles. get real.
and again, its all subjective. i can talk about any game as long as its on arcasdes and choose to like it or hate it on my own personal free will.
you are no one to decide that.
Then your not reading it right if this is what you are thinking because, we call you out, because you say you don't play at arcades anymore, and then don't own it on console. Yet, you make blatant comments saying this and that about Street Fighter IV like as though you know how the game plays like (which in reality, you do not).
Originally posted by Sado22
its not a fact. its an opinion. get real.
Some opinions have far greater stability which gives them greater volume and more depth, while other opinions were 3-minutes of experience and believing that this is good enough to make a subjective thought upon the said subject. You sound like the second latter.
Originally posted by Sado22
i found the repackaged characters boring
i found the stale graphics shit
i found the character design to be fugly
Clearly opinion.
Originally posted by Sado22
i found the fact that the characters still don't have new moves annoying
Not all, but some characters do have new moves in fact.
Originally posted by Sado22
i found the alternate outfits unimaginative and dull
i found the anime openings dull and badly drawn.i found the new characters to be shit
Opinion, however I actually agree with you on one thing, the anime intros are garbage.
Originally posted by Sado22
i found Seth a lame boss and pretty broken. beatable. but broken
This makes absolutely no sense whatsoever, have I not already explained to you why Seth is not broken? Did you just not bother to read or what, seriously, it's surely an opinion on if you think he's lame, however it's clear cut fact he's not broken, get over this already.
Originally posted by Sado22
i found the fact that most of the characters only have 2 specials to be a stepbackwards in time
How is this a step back, considering in the True SF Series, II, and III, to now IV, SF:IV is the only one in which you can use Two different Supers within the same round. Please don't equate SFIII's options of selecting 1 out of the 3 supers as being a step forward, when in fact, you are still using only one in the end.
Originally posted by Sado22
i found the game to be nothing new (my main complaint)
you see? its all subjective. also, all the things you've said about the gameplay apply to the previous SF's too (except maybe SF3). besides saving and revenge and all that jazz, this game is offering nothing new. that's my complaint. and no parry system...which made SF3 the game it was.
Explain to me what new and improved thing was shown in VF:5 that made it vastly different from VF:4 for the better? Tell me something from Tekken 5 to Tekken 6 that somehow made Tekken 6 better? Explain these new things that are not shown to be just as good, if not better in SF:IV. Other fighting games game engines overall derive from the previous versions which has been ongoing since the days of fighting games, and SF:IV isn't the only current fighting game that is following this suite, and to make it sound like it's the only one doing so is laughable.
Parry is the worse thing that ever happened to the SF series, you don't believe me? Go and talk to Top 3S Players from around the world of what they truly think of the Parry System and what it did for the III Series. In fact, the only 10% out of the 100% from the community who would worship the Parry System are people who only played 3S competitively or started out with that game out first.
This made SFIII the least strategical out of all the SF games, in fact, SF:IV is a vastly superior game in terms of strategy vs strategy in contrast to SFIII. I will not go more into this since I have done so 10x already within this thread alone, so play the games more thoroughly before you make an accusation my friend.
Originally posted by Sado22
and as for the fireballs, i've said before that i find it cheap. now unless you're a moron, i suggest you stop making me repeat myself.
Why name call? Have you simply not read up about why you think it would be cheap? Please, refrain from acting like you "know what it's like" when you don't even know how to properly defend yourself up against it.
Originally posted by Sado22
and when you accumilate all the stuff i said above, you can see why people might feel like agreeing with me. look at this thread. there are enough people going around agreeing with me. you just don't seem to ge the idea of subjectivity. wiki it. it'll help.
How many people here are agreeing with you??? Like what, one or two people, in contrast to my statements, and how many of them are posting up viable statements to agreeing with you hmm? I know someone like Konton may disagree with me, however his notions hold far more credibility then yours.
Originally posted by Sado22
I'm pretending I'm actually good and well knowledge in this game"
Where's your supposed "good" knowledge of SF:IV then? Where is your supposed "Tournie experience" then? Again, what have you said in defense to your opinion, that just isn't broad basic knowledge that a newbie SF player simply couldn't find on a general comment of the game of SF:IV on the net?
Originally posted by Sado22
listed everything on top, boy. the tiger bit wasn't a complaint about SF4 but about Sagat in general, something Nemebro started btw. obviously you don't get simple english 😂
He also didn't post a pointless troll comment with 10,000 Tiger comments about how supposedly cheap it is either now did he? Oh, btw, who as a good Sagat player shoots "High Tigers" and very few "Low Tigers"? Go back and read your Post on Sagat on page 78 again, full of Lol.
Originally posted by Sado22
~sado's ending comments made short~
It's not so much I don't mind their opinion, because loving or hating a game for some references may and are opinion. However, nothing removes the fact that some opinions have better credibility then others. Not only that, if you had said...
"Well, I don't like SF:IV because I'm more into art, design, yadi yada, however I'm not a realy competitive player therefore that's my taste." Then yes, that makes absolute sense, however this is what you stated...
"Seth is broken, Tiger's are cheap, and yeah, , and know, Tekken is better then SF, because SF:IV sucks, and what are you saying I do play in Tournies All The Time." Two very distinct remarks, one is obviously an opinion of a general player with a general comment that goes no more beyond that, one is that of someone who tries to say that I know what I'm talking about, and I have experience, so therefore what I say is credible, and yet, when in fact, they don't. Sado ='s 2nd part, and like I said, you don't even know about the very games you somehow claim are better (Tekken, 3S for examples...which I can already tell, you know absolutely nothing deeper about those fighting games other then the off shore basics of the game, which is why your opinion on either of them still holds no real grain of salt).
As always, I'm done listening to your trolling, and your lies, and your so called SF:IV experience. In fact, I guarantee you don't even have any real Tekken experience either to be quite frank. Continue to play at the level that you are at, because your like those guys that I will meet at the arcades, in which I'll simply throw a few basic moves, and own you all for free, then have you guys walking away grumping "What a cheater, always doing cheap moves to win!".
I'll ignore you from now on, and will only give the pm to play on Mame, since you have nothing remotely well knowledge to give to the KMC community concerning SF:IV other then your scrubby baseless claims of the game.
Now to remove myself for good from Sado his lack of real SF:IV knowledge and continue with giving people some well placed thoughts on the game of Street Fighter IV, here's some new heads that's being discussed...
E. Honda in this current time is considered to be moving up the tier list, as seen by the one that I recently posted from Arcadia Magazine. The thought to this, and I've had first hand experience when I was actually there in Japan, playing Honda is that, he hits hard as heck, actually has good combo options and setups, and does great damages without having to rely upon a whole load of mixups or guesses, it's just really solid credible damage.
He's kind of "similar" to ST. Honda in a way, that once he gets you down, he's got the real advantage and initiative, however again, as like all new tier list, I take this with great care, because what can one day be considered solid, may turn out to be just a month fluke. El Fuerte is another character whom on paper isn't overall good, yet has won I believe two or three tournaments with, again, this could mean two things, either the players aren't experienced enough vs a good Fuerte player, or else, he's simply an underrated character.
Blanka was as expected, relying way too much upon mixups, and the fact that people weren't used to his options. In 2008, you could exploit this very role and Blanka players were very dominant, however some very good Blanka players at the time stated "It's mainly because people don't know how to defend or counter the shenanigans yet, however once people do, he'll drop down the tier list."
That day has come, and Blanka is no longer a character considered within the Top-5 any longer, and has drop to the lower end of Middle-Tier, still solid, and up against players who don't know how to counter or defend against his mixups, they will outright die, yes, even if you pick Sagat.
Overall, I would like to see a USA Tier Listing of the cast, considering I feel that things would be shifted in alot of ways...like for instance, Zangief would not be in A-Tier (which he shouldn't be in), but B-Tier, and Rufus would most likely move up to A-Tier, in which I feel the japanese are not giving enough credit for.
I agree about Honda. He is definitely good, but IMO he struggles against fireballs. He does dish a lot of dmg, and his normals are great. His command throw comes in handy as well.
PS - I was not aware that Ryu's close sHK stuffs his headbutt if he is in the corner. Happened to this Honda I fought in a championship finals. Poor guy must have been pissed...I was literally raping him in the corner. c.HP still owns it anyways, just 1 of those "ok didn't know this beat that" moments.
Now Now I never said to ignore you or anything. Just to not take the "Yeah Ken is a lame-o who stalks schoolgirls while Ryu is even worse than Michael Jackson having no life what-so-ever" comments too serious.
get where you are coming from. From firsthand knowledge I can tell you I understand that a Cammy matchup against Ryu is tons different from another shota (Sakura for example). But I think the way Street Fighter ended out was lazy and stupid. It just feels like they didn't go the extra mile and make big differences.
@JustFrame: admit it! you're hideo kojima aren't you? 😂
~Sado
aright alright alright.....
Honestly, name me any fighting game series that long and subjective that's new?
Give one from your precious Tekken series? Name me something new from it that makes the game completely unique from the rest of the other Tekken games from Tekken 6? Btw, Bound isn't anything jaw dropping for the game engine either, consider it made things worse, then better.
The last time, Tekken felt different was Tekken 4, and look where that wen real fast.
SFIII was terrible period, the Parry System alone devalued the entire game of SFIII to a high/low mixup with throws thrown in.
Answer to your question is, you can't make it "entirely" new
The fact is, SF:IV plays unique enough that it doesn't even feel like SFII or SFIII, seemingly having both those into one, yet being something totally different, so I don't see how this isn't a different game, when in fact it is.
Good new characters??? Viper is an absolute beast here, she's one of the strongest competitors in the entire game of SF:IV, she's aggressive, has crazy mixups, and some of the craziest cross ups in the game along with a solid setup for Ultras.
Abel may not be in the same league, however he is unique in itself, and where as characters like Gief as a grappler may struggle against fireball characters such as Ryu, Abel actually fights quite solidly up against them due to his grab set ups.
How about Seth, a great new boss who's actually not broken and is a viable competitive character. Subjective or not, the fact is, your opinion on the game being "trash" is mute because you only have basic knowledge of the game, and thus making your statements shallow and poorly represented.
Didn't I say it's okay to dislike a game, if you can make thorough statements to a well established opinion? Since when have you done so within your last 5+ pots?
to be continued....
Please, don't point the finger here, firstly you say Tekken is better...yet you can't even make a remotely good reason why you think it's better. The fact is, you don't even know enough about both games to even make a plausible opinion. This is why Trickster and I are going "Hmm...this guy is just talking rubbish". Simply because in the end, you are, firstly, if you know some solid depth for both games and gave out credible reasons, then I would be able to respect your opinion, however with what you've stated thus far, it's just scrub talk I'm sorry to say.
Again, it's not like I've come across people who didn't like Street Fighter IV...however those who didn't gave more thorough statements besides "It plays the same...Seth is broken...Tiger is cheap!" They go beyond that notion.
Dude, if you play now...and don't take it serious anymore...how in the world do you make the claim you play in Tournies all the time? Seriously, you are again lying to everyone on this thread, because you say you did one thing but now all of a sudden you just don't even care all of a sudden.
Really, so your saying you played tournies all the time, but out of the blue, you just don't care anymore? I mean, seriously, make up your mind, you went from "I hate the game" to "I play in tournies all the time" to "I just don't care anymore". Which one is it?
*looks at the rest of the post*
okay, you know what, i really don't have time for this so i'll just get to the part where you're offering "rebuttals" to my reasons for not liking SF4.
Clearly opinion.
Not all, but some characters do have new moves in fact.
Opinion, however I actually agree with you on one thing, the anime intros are garbage.
This makes absolutely no sense whatsoever, have I not already explained to you why Seth is not broken? Did you just not bother to read or what, seriously, it's surely an opinion on if you think he's lame, however it's clear cut fact he's not broken, get over this already.
How is this a step back, considering in the True SF Series, II, and III, to now IV, SF:IV is the only one in which you can use Two different Supers within the same round. Please don't equate SFIII's options of selecting 1 out of the 3 supers as being a step forward, when in fact, you are still using only one in the end.
Explain to me what new and improved thing was shown in VF:5 that made it vastly different from VF:4 for the better?
Tell me something from Tekken 5 to Tekken 6 that somehow made Tekken 6 better?
but the main thing is that since every character in tekken has atleast 50 moves there is much more variety in the game and even a little tweak to the moves can actually change the feel of the character when you play with them. SF4 can't make this claim because the characters mostly have same moves from before and since its only 3 or 4 per character it gets stale faster. I...M...O.
think about it..the number of followups to Kazuya's EGWF move alone is practically around 5 that i know of and i'm not even a kazuya vet.
Explain these new things that are not shown to be just as good, if not better in SF:IV. Other fighting games game engines overall derive from the previous versions which has been ongoing since the days of fighting games, and SF:IV isn't the only current fighting game that is following this suite, and to make it sound like it's the only one doing so is laughable.
Parry is the worse thing that ever happened to the SF series, you don't believe me? Go and talk to Top 3S Players from around the world of what they truly think of the Parry System and what it did for the III Series.
In fact, the only 10% out of the 100% from the community who would worship the Parry System are people who only played 3S competitively or started out with that game out first
This made SFIII the least strategical out of all the SF games, in fact, SF:IV is a vastly superior game in terms of strategy vs strategy in contrast to SFIII. I will not go more into this since I have done so 10x already within this thread alone, so play the games more thoroughly before you make an accusation my friend.
~Sado
Originally posted by Sado22
to be honest, you still haven't given a good reason why SF is better either...and that's where subjectivity comes in. you've tried to explain that SF is superior but you've failed to convince anyone here about it. me on the other hand, i just mentioned 3 main reasons why [b]I like tekken better. so yeah i'll point fingers. as for "solid knowledge blah blah" with all your apparent solid knowledge you've managed to convince or changed no one's mind. all you've done is annoy people with your insanely long "pots". look at the replies to your posts. aside from trickster, lotta guys don't agrees with you.
so again, what you're saying is not a "Fact".[/B]
Actually, alot of people have agreed, you either aren't listening, or you don't know anything. I've already displayed valuable reasons why SF is a great fighting game, and reasons why SF:IV is far better then the current Tekken game you seemingly defend.
Originally posted by Sado22
tiger is cheap all the way. not just in SF4. stop being a dumbass.
I've listed all the reasons why i didn't like it. shut up already.
I'm sick of the trashtalking here, you either keep it clean, or a mod has to come here and throw the hammer down on you again. You see here, your reasons are newbie level reasons...again, what "good" player of SF can't give a reasonable explanation. Obviously you haven't, we won't need to go anywhere with this anymore, simply put, you don't know how to avoid fireballs, period.
Originally posted by Sado22
play[b]ed is a past tense of play. past tense is used to describe events that took place in the past and not in the present.[/B]
Oh, you finally admit that you haven't been playing tournies all the time, as you once stated. You in fact, have never played tournies at all. Right, I gotcha, good, now we know how far your knowledge for this game goes too.
Originally posted by Sado22
*looks at the rest of the post*
okay, you know what, i really don't have time for this so i'll just get to the part where you're offering "rebuttals" to my reasons for not liking SF4.
Originally posted by Sado22
no shit. what part of that wasn't obvious 5 posts before?
One, you never stated those in your past 5+ post, you spammed about how Broken Seth was, about how much "better" Tekken was (yet you gave no credible plausible reasons why), you talked about Tiger's being cheap, and you talked about how you used to play in tournies, and you hating console....umm, what? Yeah.
Originally posted by Sado22
well, when you make a new game, putting atleast ONE new move for a character would be something nice. especially for the vets like shotoclons etc.
Which does "what" to most characters, you do know that the 1-2 new moves most characters got in other fg's like Tekken aren't even "used" right at high level of play? Seriously, you think adding "new" moves are going to make things better all the time. Look at the history of fighting games and see if this drastically improves character diversity, and you'll realize the truth.
Originally posted by Sado22
yes, its all opinion. none of what you said was facts either...if they were facts, people won't disagree with you. but look around you: people are disagreeing with it and thus what you said is not facts.
Character diversity in Street Fighter is incredibly high...Fact. (Look at the magnitude of differentials between characters that play different from one another)
There is alot of strategy vs strategy in SF...Fact. (footsies, zoning, spacing, finding true counters to these, not being super dependent upon the universal options, but the tools which are given to the characters)
The game is incredibly balanced for a First installment...Fact. (More then half the cast are viable at the Top-Levels, something your Tekken 6 couldn't achieve for it's #6 installment)
Oh...what part did I say "wasn't" fact?
Originally posted by Sado22
well, i don't remember why he's not broken. care to summarize (please summarize)
Because you don't bother to Read.
- Worse Life bar in the game ='s Takes the most damage out of anyone
- Worse Stun Bar in the game ='s Easiest to stun out of any character in the game.
- Great specials, however none of them high crazy priority, even Sonic Boom projectile works nothing like Guile's.
- Due to having the worse lifebar and stun bar, Seth can lose anywhere from more then a quarter, of over half his life on one simple mistake.
- He has to be played with the mentality of not getting hit, which even for the most elite players are incredibly hard to do.
Put all them together, and you'll understand, that you don't know anything about Seth as a character and realize that he's not broken. End of comment.
Originally posted by Sado22
step back in the times when fighters only had 1-2 specials moves. not talking being back in time in SF2 but in fighting games in general.
Are you serious, your equating this to making fighting games better. When has this devalued a game such as SF:IV strategically, or made it "less" in-depth then other fighting games?
Originally posted by Sado22
never played VF beyond VF3.
Obviously not.
Originally posted by Sado22
haven't played tekken6 yet.
Thus why you believe it's the "better" game, when you play it on my level, it's the absolute trashiest Tekken to date, and doesn't compare in contrast to SF:IV, the two most current compared to one another.
Originally posted by Sado22
1. removal of the terrain hieght was a good idea in ways but i thought that it was a good edition to the series that they should've tweaked instead of remove
I actually agree with you on this.
Originally posted by Sado22
2. the new characters are all great (minus jinpachi...no more mishimas pls)
Considering I'm sure you don't know this, but 90% of the Tekken community hated, Asuka, Raven, and only Feng got love. Because one was technically not even a new character considering most of her attack's/strings were taken directly from Jun, while the other looked like a Blade wannabe. It took time for those to grow on the community, exactly like in contrast to the SF:IV new members.
Originally posted by Sado22
3. the sound effects, hit system and "ouch factor" of 5 is much better.
There worse actually, the fluidity of Tekken 4 was vastly superior in contrast to Tekken 5, which was made back to be clunky again.
Originally posted by Sado22
4. the game feels more "solid" in terms of gameplay....can't really explain this any better...
Crushes beating out plus frame jabs being better? Explain? nearly 80% of all hopkicks leading to over 60-70% life loss being better? Explain? The game was made easier on purpose you can easily accessed juggle carries making the game nothing more then a sheer juggle fest being better? Explain? Due to the dominance of juggles, regardless of whom you pick, this was the mentality you played with being better? Explain?
Originally posted by Sado22
5. more characters
True.
However to give a mention, more characters doesn't always mean "more" diversity mind you. Game engine plays into that part, and the balance of the characters as well. However, at your level, to where you are obviously only doing casual play and not serious play, then yes, it would work more for you.
Originally posted by Sado22
6. the new moves for characters are great and they fit together
Actually...No, you are wrong, most of the new modifications and new moves for characters were trashy, and were either barely used or not even used at all in a solid level competition. How many people used Jin's Cd+1 even 2-3 times in a real match up? His new LS was garbage, and the new modification on his Cd+4 was terrible.
You have a few "small" exceptions, but you go back to Steve and his great options are still those that he used from his Tekken 4 version. So again, you are clearly wrong here, having more "moves" does not make the game deeper.
Virtua Fighter is another great example of this, they add a few new moves, however what MAKES Virtua Fighter superior to Tekken in the 3-D fighting game world is due to the fact that because of it's game engine, not it's move-list. Game Engine>>>>>Move List and the real forte to what makes a fighting game tick.
Originally posted by Sado22
7. the game is fast paced and the graphics are much, much better and the music is awesome.
etc etc etc
SF:IV took a more cartoony approach as stated by the creators, because SF:IV is supposed to have this more super natural feel to it. Tekken's models were made to be more realistic because that's the artwork approach they took.
Obviously opinion, however this has little to do with the quality of how the game plays like anyhow.
Originally posted by Sado22
but the main thing is that since every character in tekken has atleast 50 moves there is much more variety in the game and even a little tweak to the moves can actually change the feel of the character when you play with them. SF4 can't make this claim because the characters mostly have same moves from before and since its only 3 or 4 per character it gets stale faster. I...M...O.
think about it..the number of followups to Kazuya's EGWF move alone is practically around 5 that i know of and i'm not even a kazuya vet.
Your above statement is why you need to seriously play both games before you make your comparisons. Firstly, I said like 5 pages or so ago, that even with such a huge list, nearly 75-80% of it doesn't even get used.
Ask someone like Slips who plays Eddy/Christie, even with 5 pages of movelist, only close to 25-30% of it is used. For someone such as Jin, or Kazuya as you mentioned, the movelist selection of what's effective and good, is the same ratio as well, and in some cases, even smaller, due to the fact that Jin's entire move list won't even fill up a page.
Example: Devil Jin in Tekken 5...
- Ewgf, 112, Hellsweep, Ws+2, Ws+4, B+1, d/f+1,2, d+4...this is what is used nearly 80% of the time in DJ's matches.
So that out of how many in his arsenal? Things like d+3+4 aren't even used unless off of a low parry, or juggle ender, however his real spacing pokes as stated above is the real bread and butter of his gameplan.
Having 50 moves means absolutely nothing, if only 15-20 of them you'll ever be using in a real lifetime play here. However you never bothered to realize that due to the fact SF:IV you can be attacked from long, mid, close, high/low, cross ups, etc, etc, it actually adds more to the options you can deal damage other then having to be forced up close. Honestly, learn more about the game of Tekken before you make these "bold" statements.
Originally posted by Sado22
aside from the change in graphics what else is SF4 offering that actually made the game better than SF2 series? revenge system?
Other then graphics what made Tekken 5, or Tekken 6 better then the older Tekken games, especially Tekken Tag which is regarded as the Greatest Tekken game ever? More Juggles? Bound to prolong juggles? Making the game more scrub friendly?
Originally posted by Sado22
everyone i know loves the parry system. and how do you know the cats you talk to are "top 3S players"?
Ed Ma, Nuki, Watson, Valle, Wong, just to name a few. I'm sure you've seen these guys up in the Top-8 before right? Have you ever bothered to read up the threads talking about Parry at shroyuken.com where top lvl players post?
They've even openly admitted themselves that due to Parry, you are sitting there doing nothing but tons of Parry Option Selects, fearful of doing your best options because it can be parried by a right guess of forward or down, AA's being junk due to parry so you have tons of dry jumping and fearful of truly punishing them for it, projectiles being junk due to parry, and forcing every character to play out of what they were intentionally made to play like. Necro is not entirely great, however he is made even more trashy because since he can't poke zone with his limbs...he has to rush in due to Parry. Imagine if Remy could actually remotely use his projectiles with some sort of reasonable spacing success? In fact, you remove the Parry System, and the Remy would shoot up the charts, along with Ryu, and Gouki, even Necro would move up just slightly.
Again, I don't need to get into this anymore. The above is self-explanatory.
Originally posted by Sado22
i doubt that's a fact. stop throwing the word "fact" around like that. if what you're saying is a fact then prove it.
Nearly all the top 3S players who played 3S have stated this, you do know who Ed Ma is right, and I'm 100% sure you don't, so I'll educate you because he is a top USA 3S player and has frequent talks, competition against all other top global players. However speaking with other well established top players of 3S from not just the US but from around the world, almost all of them agreed it gets incredibly random at the high levels because of Parry being the Universal Option.
The only Top Players who don't say anything, are the ones who started with SFIII as their very first SF game in which they started to play competitively on. If you played SF before SFIII, and compared it to the 3S, the III series strategy vs strategy is pathetically horrible due to the overpowered option of Parry. This is what most people don't like, Top Players included.
You think I'm lying? Go and watch any 3S level of play, and see how many times you'll notice that they'll option-select parry nearly all the time...heck, check the Daigo Umehara vs Alex Valle video from 3S as being just one such example.
Lastly you don't need to be Top Level to see how stupid Parry was for the game of SF mind you. I'm not even on Ed Ma's or Valle's level, yet I can tell feverishly how downgraded the game is. Yes, it is fact, it's been shown, even at the highest levels of play, vividly within the match ups. That's Facts for you, because even at the elite, it's still happening.
I hate to say this again...but I know more about the game that you "think" is better, then you do.
Originally posted by Sado22
and yet, in this thread alone, lotta people are saying that SF4 is vastly inferior to it. see how your "facts" go?~Sado
How many of them on here played Street Fighter seriously and really understood the game engines of both to compare them to Street Fighter III? It's not even my "facts" mind you, it's what has been proven, shown at the competitive level of the Street Fighter community. Lol, you give me too much credit by saying it's all mine.
Here's some SBO Qualifiers Videos from our Top USA Players trying to earn a spot to head over to Japan.
Alex Valle/Combofiend (Ryu, Viper) vs Edma/Sextaro (Gouki, Rufus)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z63w4G3WvlU
Alex Valle/Combofiend vs Sabin/LongIslandJoe (Sim, Sagat)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ZKGt91qLjg&feature=related
There's alot more, however just look it up at youtube.com and you'll find more 🤣 .
Alex Valle and Combofiend defeated Edma and Sextaro to become the USA representatives for SF:IV to compete at SBO in Japan. Ed Ma was actually going to team up with Combofiend, however he was afraid that two characters with low health bars would be a handicap more then an advantage, which is why he chose Sextaro with Rufus instead. Combofiend was actually tearing up everyone at this tournament with his Viper, which is why Alex Valle didn't get a whole lot of fighting rounds against the competition.
The thing is, you cannot switch your characters, and since Valle and Combofiend won with Ryu/Viper, those are the two whom must be used at SBO (it's a rule). However, it's not a problem, since Valle at the heart, has always been a Shoto Player (He was the best player in the world in Street Fighter : Alpha 2 with Ryu, considering he went to Japan during that time, and destroyed all the Top-Japanese Players there at the height of Alpha2, and obviously has been a top player in many other SF games as well). Combofiend is a Viper player, and reason and testimony to why he literally knocked out everyone during this competition with Viper.
I'm expecting some great stuff from Valle/Combofiend, so here goes, SBO will be up, however Evolution 2009 is getting near the corner, I can't wait to see Poongko return and see how much better his Ryu has gotten, plus I want to see the US take Evo2k9 in SF:IV from Japan, this should be interesting indeed.
Actually, alot of people have agreed, you either aren't listening, or you don't know anything. I've already displayed valuable reasons why SF is a great fighting game, and reasons why SF:IV is far better then the current Tekken game you seemingly defend
I'm sick of the trashtalking here, you either keep it clean, or a mod has to come here and throw the hammer down on you again.
Oh, you finally admit that you haven't been playing tournies all the time, as you once stated. You in fact, have never played tournies at all. Right, I gotcha, good, now we know how far your knowledge for this game goes too.
One, you never stated those in your past 5+ post, you spammed about how Broken Seth was, about how much "better" Tekken was (yet you gave no credible plausible reasons why), you talked about Tiger's being cheap, and you talked about how you used to play in tournies, and you hating console....umm, what? Yeah.
Seriously, you think adding "new" moves are going to make things better all the time. Look at the history of fighting games and see if this drastically improves character diversity, and you'll realize the truth.
Character diversity in Street Fighter is incredibly high...Fact
There is alot of strategy vs strategy in SF...Fact. (footsies, zoning, spacing, finding true counters to these, not being super dependent upon the universal options, but the tools which are given to the characters)
The game is incredibly balanced for a First installment...Fact. (More then half the cast are viable at the Top-Levels, something your Tekken 6 couldn't achieve for it's #6 installment)
Oh...what part did I say "wasn't" fact?
Because you don't bother to Read.
- Worse Life bar in the game ='s Takes the most damage out of anyone
- Worse Stun Bar in the game ='s Easiest to stun out of any character in the game.
- Great specials, however none of them high crazy priority, even Sonic Boom projectile works nothing like Guile's.
- Due to having the worse lifebar and stun bar, Seth can lose anywhere from more then a quarter, of over half his life on one simple mistake.
- He has to be played with the mentality of not getting hit, which even for the most elite players are incredibly hard to do.
Are you serious, your equating this to making fighting games better. When has this devalued a game such as SF:IV strategically, or made it "less" in-depth then other fighting games?
Considering I'm sure you don't know this, but 90% of the Tekken community hated, Asuka, Raven, and only Feng got love. Because one was technically not even a new character considering most of her attack's/strings were taken directly from Jun, while the other looked like a Blade wannabe. It took time for those to grow on the community, exactly like in contrast to the SF:IV new members.
There worse actually, the fluidity of Tekken 4 was vastly superior in contrast to Tekken 5, which was made back to be clunky again.
Crushes beating out plus frame jabs being better? Explain? nearly 80% of all hopkicks leading to over 60-70% life loss being better? Explain? The game was made easier on purpose you can easily accessed juggle carries making the game nothing more then a sheer juggle fest being better? Explain? Due to the dominance of juggles, regardless of whom you pick, this was the mentality you played with being better? Explain?
if there are juggles, there also ways to escape them and the fact that you wouldnt' be getting caught in juggles if you're good. that's the idea. i play a very grounded game with kazuya (barely even do rising sun) and i never juggled. i've fought all kinds of jugglers and beaten them. i'm not amazing with kazuya but there are so many ways to avoid juggles that its a shame people actually leave it. sidestep is your best friend! when a game offers you infinite juggles and you can still beat it without having to resort to cheapness...you know its a good game.
Actually...No, you are wrong, most of the new modifications and new moves for characters were trashy, and were either barely used or not even used at all in a solid level competition. How many people used Jin's Cd+1 even 2-3 times in a real match up? His new LS was garbage, and the new modification on his Cd+4 was terrible.
You have a few "small" exceptions, but you go back to Steve and his great options are still those that he used from his Tekken 4 version. So again, you are clearly wrong here, having more "moves" does not make the game deeper.
Your above statement is why you need to seriously play both games before you make your comparisons. Firstly, I said like 5 pages or so ago, that even with such a huge list, nearly 75-80% of it doesn't even get used.
good tekken players use all moves in variety and that's what makes the game uber. there obviously some moves that are your bread and butter moves but others are viable and usable to mix things up and really intensify the game.
well, there are some moves you don't use. with ryu, i don't use joudansakutogeri AT ALL. with ken...i barely use the hadouken. with akuma i never use tenmakuuginkyaku.
Example: Devil Jin in Tekken 5...
- Ewgf, 112, Hellsweep, Ws+2, Ws+4, B+1, d/f+1,2, d+4...this is what is used nearly 80% of the time in DJ's matches.
i use these regularly, and i'm not even a pro with DJ. that's a big part of his moves. now if i put in the moves i do every now and then, how many moves do you think that becomes?
Ed Ma, Nuki, Watson, Valle, Wong, just to name a few. I'm sure you've seen these guys up in the Top-8 before right? Have you ever bothered to read up the threads talking about Parry at shroyuken.com where top lvl players post?
They've even openly admitted themselves that due to Parry, you are sitting there doing nothing but tons of Parry Option Selects, fearful of doing your best options because it can be parried by a right guess of forward or down, AA's being junk due to parry so you have tons of dry jumping and fearful of truly punishing them for it, projectiles being junk due to parry, and forcing every character to play out of what they were intentionally made to play like. Necro is not entirely great, however he is made even more trashy because since he can't poke zone with his limbs...he has to rush in due to Parry. Imagine if Remy could actually remotely use his projectiles with some sort of reasonable spacing success? In fact, you remove the Parry System, and the Remy would shoot up the charts, along with Ryu, and Gouki, even Necro would move up just slightly.
Nearly all the top 3S players who played 3S have stated this, you do know who Ed Ma is right, and I'm 100% sure you don't, so I'll educate you because he is a top USA 3S player and has frequent talks, competition against all other top global players. However speaking with other well established top players of 3S from not just the US but from around the world, almost all of them agreed it gets incredibly random at the high levels because of Parry being the Universal Option.
You think I'm lying? Go and watch any 3S level of play, and see how many times you'll notice that they'll option-select parry nearly all the time...heck, check the Daigo Umehara vs Alex Valle video from 3S as being just one such example.
Lastly you don't need to be Top Level to see how stupid Parry was for the game of SF mind you. I'm not even on Ed Ma's or Valle's level, yet I can tell feverishly how downgraded the game is. Yes, it is fact, it's been shown, even at the highest levels of play, vividly within the match ups. That's Facts for you, because even at the elite, it's still happening.
I hate to say this again...
but I know more about the game that you "think" is better, then you do.
How many of them on here played Street Fighter seriously and really understood the game engines of both to compare them to Street Fighter III?
It's not even my "facts" mind you, it's what has been proven, shown at the competitive level of the Street Fighter community. Lol, you give me too much credit by saying it's all mine.
~Sado
Not gonna quote all of your stuff, since half of it is the same flop mess...
Originally posted by Sado22
my tekken? hahaha....dude i'm not the whining to the other guy that i need to take games seriously or shitting myself because someone disagrees with my opinions (which in my delusional little world i consider facts). its not my tekken as much as its "your precious SF"
as for balanced, if you have trouble beating someone in tekken and if you think the certain characters have a vast advantage over other characters then you're a scrub. its that simple. you can pwn ANY character with the other as long as you know how to play. so yeah, tekken is balanced. its not the game's fault that you can't play it.
This quote right here is why you definitely do not have Tournament Experience. Tell me the last time a KUMA Player won a High Level Tournament? Please do? The Best Kuma Players in the world can't even do this, and your notion is that it's balanced because it's up to the player? ROFL.
First off, Kuma has terrible frame advantages, terrible setups to land damage, his attacks can leave him wide open to punishment and he struggles to do any real damage off of anything. Let's compare that to Jin in T6 shall we? Who has great pokes, Ewhf, Great Mids, good sweep, a monster hop kick, and great wall setups as well as stupidly good juggle+bound+juggle capability. This is why there is things such as a Tier Listing.
Your telling me, that Tekken 4 was balanced when 98% of the tournaments were won by Jin Kazama? So Tekken 5 5.0 must've been balanced when the only two characters winning 80% of the tournies were Steve and Nina. Let's go to SF:3S as well, when was the last time you saw a Hugo player, or Necro player take a high level tournament? Look at Evolution for the past 4 straight years, more then 5 out of the 8 top place finishers were Chunli alone. Rofl.
Yes, it must be "my fault" that the game of Tekken isn't balanced, lol.
My goodness, this quote is so full of win, I'm going to keep it as a sig, because it's so full of scrubtacular notions.
Originally posted by Sado22
fact? oh my god... 🙄
Refute the below statements as not being facts then (From my original post that you quoted from).
Character diversity in Street Fighter is incredibly high...Fact. (Look at the magnitude of differentials between characters that play different from one another)
There is alot of strategy vs strategy in SF...Fact. (footsies, zoning, spacing, finding true counters to these, not being super dependent upon the universal options, but the tools which are given to the characters)
The game is incredibly balanced for a First installment...Fact. (More then half the cast are viable at the Top-Levels, something your Tekken 6 couldn't achieve for it's #6 installment, for Tekken 5, only DR was as balance as SF:IV and it took TWO Upgrades to do that)
Oh...what part did I say "wasn't" fact?
Originally posted by Sado22
CPU Seth
Seth as a boss is more of a joke, then he is controlled by a good player. Seriously, if you are losing out to a CPU controlled character, who's not even broken to begin with, then where does that tell of your relative "SF level of play"? Honestly man, pucker, up, Seth's a joke as AI controlled boss, did you not remember me stating that I did nothing but Jump in fierce and sweep the entire time and was capable of beating him at the highest level. CPU Seth ='s Fail.
Originally posted by Sado22
Sado saying that I can't handle juggles in Tekken and that I must think they are cheap
Juggle's aren't cheap, they devalue the way you play Tekken that's what is the problem here, however, you've never comprehended this the entire time I've stated this to you.
You play Jin...your looking to juggle...you play Kuma...your looking to juggle...you play Ling...your looking to juggle. Every single match up has come down to juggles/bound/wallsplat mentality. Where's the character individualism? Why is it that playing with Paul to Jin, I'm still playing with the main mentality of "I need to fish for the launcher to juggle." Even though their movelist are not the same? That's because the game engine of Tekken 6 is so geared towards juggling, that it forces characters who aren't good at it to go into that element, simply because it's the Best Way To Do Damage. It isn't like how it was back in the old days, where Ogre's damages derived mostly off of OKI's, Mishima's were the only real juggling powerhouses, and the Chang's relied upon countering for their raw damage.
Now you see where I'm going at? Cheap? Not even. Scrubby and more Newbie Friendly game engine that has deflated the once strategical aspects of Tekken? Yes indeed.
Originally posted by Sado22
I dont use Ryu joudan kick, I don't use Ken's hadouken, I dont use Gouki Dive Kick
Ryu's Joudan gives him great juggling and damage pay off, considering the ex-version sends them to the wall, allowing you to do nice setups, for Ryu, especially if your playing SAI Ryu, so I don't see why you would "not" use this move, considering no good Ryu player never ever uses this.
I've never seen a Ken player who "barely" uses his Hadouken...that's just terrible play for Ken, even if it's not as good as Ryu's, it's still effective and forces opponents to having to come to you (try not using that Fireball up against Zangief, Honda, etc, etc and see what happens). However if your talking about 3S...projectiles are fail due to Parry, so yes, I can agree to that.
Gouki's Dive Kick is one of his greatest assets in the game, my goodness, yes, it's not crazy good like his 2I version, however his 3S version is very effective, who in the world would leave this out of their arsenal considering this is one of Gouki's best offensive moves for an offensive oriented character. Clearly you don't know how to use any of them very effectively.
Originally posted by Sado22
Sado Showcasing some of DJ's movelist that he uses and telling me how much it is in contrast to the actual list
This out of the 73+ moves he's got, and btw, that's 73 not even including his 25+ other moves he's still got (Not including String, Unblockable, and Grappling Arts). You equate that into a percentage, and you'll see exactly why I stated more does not equal better. Also, how many Jin's seriously use "Ultimate Tackle" alot? Three Ring Circus? Only on a juggle off of a HS, nobody does that out of the blue, your asking to get crushed. Low Devil Beam is full of LOL, nobody ever uses that, DJ's got much better oki's, heck, even a HS on oki is 100x better then Low Devil Beam.
The last one you speak of is only good for juggles, nobody uses that out of the blue again. So in short, DJ's entire move list, still only roughly 25-30% of it is used in most of the realistic scenarios.
In fact, watch this video of Qudans vs MainstreetRyu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oka1EA3fiiI
Count how many "moves" they do out of the entire List of both Devil Jin and Heihachi, and see if you can even get around 40%, lol. Exactly what I was referring too.
Originally posted by Sado22
honestly, no. i don't.
The more reason why you don't know what in the world you are talking about concerning Parry.
Originally posted by Sado22
Sado saying tournament players I compete and talk with are nothing more then critics who don't know about the very game they are competing in.
Again, you don't ever bother to read my statement truly. When I said the SF community, I said, within the matches themselves. What I said about Parry is proven in ALL the tournament matches being played at the competitive level. Even at the moderate Levels this is shown with the case of Parry. This isn't some "Top Player" talk or what not, this is evidence proven and shown, through SFIII's entire lifespan that because of Parry, we are forced to having to play within a phone booth. There is alot of guess in matches, because all of our attacks can be negated by a simple forward or down, only throws exclude this fact.
Heck even as broken as the alpha series was, there was 50x more strategy vs strategy going on in there then in SFIII.
Originally posted by Sado22
something about critics and how everything stated is supposedly opinion only
I laid down the examples, why from a strategy vs strategy look of both current fighting games, Street Fighter IV is doing it way better. I compared how the two play in contrast to one another, the comparison of the character diversity in their individualism, the overall balance factor (although balance is overrated in my bit, it's still a factor regardless). When you do all of that, and compare the two, SF:IV is better then either Tekken 6 or Tekken 5 in all those regards, which are the most important aspects of what makes a fighting game tick "not it's graphics" or it's "well I can add a purse to my character" cosmetics. So what your saying is the worst hog wash excuses I've seen from you. It's not an opinion, SF:IV is a more strategically sound fighting game then either Tekken 5 or 6. You made the comparisons first, yet now you can't handle what I'm telling you? Lol.
The problem with you Sado, is that when someone more well knowledge then you comes along and tells you that you are incorrect on some of your statements, you simply can't take that.
Read this: Your so called "opinion" doesn't hold any real credibility due to the fact that this entire time, I have been telling you more of how these two fighting games play like, then you have been telling it to me.
Anyway, here's Jin as he would appear in SFIV 😛
http://fc01.deviantart.com/fs25/f/2008/169/b/4/Jin_Kazama_by_hideki.jpg
This quote right here is why you definitely do not have Tournament Experience. Tell me the last time a KUMA Player won a High Level Tournament? Please do? The Best Kuma Players in the world can't even do this, and your notion is that it's balanced because it's up to the player? ROFL.
Your telling me, that Tekken 4 was balanced...blah blah blah blah blah blah blah
Juggle's aren't cheap, they devalue the way you play Tekken that's what is the problem here, however, you've never comprehended this the entire time I've stated this to you.
You play Jin...your looking to juggle...you play Kuma...your looking to juggle...you play Ling...your looking to juggle. Every single match up has come down to juggles/bound/wallsplat mentality. Where's the character individualism? Why is it that playing with Paul to Jin, I'm still playing with the main mentality of "I need to fish for the launcher to juggle."
Ryu's Joudan gives him great juggling and damage pay off, considering the ex-version sends them to the wall, allowing you to do nice setups, for Ryu, especially if your playing SAI Ryu, so I don't see why you would "not" use this move, considering no good Ryu player never ever uses this.
I've never seen a Ken player who "barely" uses his Hadouken...that's just terrible play for Ken, even if it's not as good as Ryu's, it's still effective and forces opponents to having to come to you (try not using that Fireball up against Zangief, Honda, etc, etc and see what happens)
Gouki's Dive Kick is one of his greatest assets.........blah blah blah blah blah
You equate that into a percentage, and you'll see exactly why I stated more does not equal better. Also, how many Jin's seriously use "Ultimate Tackle" alot? Three Ring Circus? Only on a juggle off of a HS, nobody does that out of the blue, your asking to get crushed. Low Devil Beam is full of LOL, nobody ever uses that, DJ's got much better oki's, heck, even a HS on oki is 100x better then Low Devil Beam
now everyone should stop using 3ringcircus cuz scrub boy here can't use it to his advantage even if his life depended on it. seriously, man, you need to grow up 😆
Again, you don't ever bother to read my statement truly.
When I said the SF community, I said....blah blah blah blah blah blah.
The problem with you Sado, is that when someone more well knowledge then you comes along and tells you that you are incorrect on some of your statements, you simply can't take that.
the problems with you, JF, are:
-you take yourseflt too seriously
-you can't understand simple english and grammar when people tell you that they [b]used to play in tournaments in their community (friends in uni, but mostly videogame club events at uni) and at arcades
-you don't understand when people say they've moved on from videogames and still decide to PM them asking them to play with you
-you don't understand subjectivity
-you expect everyone to care about games you care about
-you expect everyoen to play games you play (i don't play VF and somehow that's an affront to you)
-your posts are too long and you seem to getoff on hearing yourself talk
-you PM people and ask them to play with you when they don't have consoles, don't want to buy consoles, don't want to know you or want to come across you besdes these unfortunate VG threads and don't play games seriously any more (because they have a life and have other things to do)
-oh, and when you come across people who can actually pull off moves you can't, your panties bunch up 😱
somehow after 3 pages on circular arguments, you still don't seem to get all this. please, just shut up.
~Sado
