Gamestop's already listing Super Street Fighter 4 for sale in ('10) on it's website.
http://www.gamestop.com/Catalog/ProductDetails.aspx?product_id=76129
You know, watching all of the current top Street Fighter IV gameplay, it makes me happy, yet also very sad and depressed at the same time.
As a person who has seen SF since it began to the current SFIV now, I can say without a shadow of a doubt, that certain key fundamentals of Street Fighter have been devalued over the years, due to the constant importance of the Universal Options that are now showing up everywhere in SF games (this can also be applied to many other fighting games currently as well).
Case and point here, in both occassions of the match up of Daigo vs Wong, where Wong obviously lost both times to Daigo. However, if you actually watch both series, Wong overall had the better SF Fundamentals (spacing and footsies). Daigo as the beast that he is however capitalizes on a huge factor in SFIV...the Universal Options and advantages of having Supers/Ultras now a days.
In fact, if you even go as far back as 1998 when Valle took on Daigo in Alpha 3, you would have notice that even Alex Valle's footsie game was 10x better then Daigo...however VC Gouki is too much of a monster and their are heavy gimps within Ryu's VC that can be exploited by Gouki in this manner. More over to the fact, it has been shown time and time again, through out SF history, that the USA players are fact, superior to Japanese players when it comes to spacing and footsies.
No, I'm not saying Daigo isn't deserving of these wins, because he definitely is and is one of the best players to show up within the present day era of competitive gaming. However through out his tenure as a Ryu player, I can say this without hesitation, his Ryu footsie game in contrast to other great Ryu players, is actually really not that good.
That's what annoys me the most about current SF games, or SF games with "Supers". You can win much of the match...however one mistake, a super/ultra lands and there goes 50-60% of your life...just because you threw out one fireball, or whiffed a poke...WOW. Not the same in Pre-SF games w/out supers, because winning by a sweeps worth of damage was gigantic, which made matches far more methodical and demanding by the player.
This is why someone like Daigo, can compensate his relative decent footsie game when playing as Ryu in current SF games, and this does not pertain to just Daigo, but ALL current Top SF players. What am I getting at...it's the loss of SF fundamentals which is what I'm saying. If you took all of the solid to great SFII players in today's generation and pit them against the OG SFII players of the early-mid 90's generation.
The OG SFII players would mop most of the current SFII players with relative ease. Reason behind this? SF fundamentals was far more dominant and prominent to the average player then then it is now. Take Top ST players for example, like Gian, Kurahashi, Daigo, John Choi, Wolfe brothers etc, etc. Then you put them into a "dream" match up against the OG SFII players of old...and you would see a level of rape that would even amaze you.
Players like Daigo, whom is amazing today in ST, however if he were to play a in his prime Mike Watson, Daigo would get absolutely demolished in SFII. In fact, the Top SFII players of today would be Upper-Tier level at best in contrast to the Best players of old.
Like I said, it's mainly due to the change up of the mentality of play, and the lack of fundamentals due to how SF games are played today. Why try to sit there for months on end to master your footsie game which will only benefit in minimal damage when you can learn how to FADCxxUltra which can net in 50%+ damage and is 100x easier to learn. This is why players today can compensate lack of fundamentals due to easier access to obtaining damage because of such Universal Options. This was exceedingly apparent when Daigo took on Jeff back in 2004. Daigo due to lack of footsies, and zoning, in some matches got absolutely and utterly destroyed by Jeff, and in some matches...perfected. Even when Daigo threw out his best characters like ST. Ryu, ST. Rog.
Jeff just methodically picked him apart with CE. Guile, and to make it even more unbelievable, Jeff was 10+ years retired, wasn't used to the speed of the game at all, and didn't even play his Main characters against Daigo (CE. Dhalsim, Sagat, and although he played HF. Blanka for one set, he couldn't get his spacing and timing down and lost out, however "had" he'd of gotten the Blanka Train going....Daigo would not have won a single round).
Even when it was all said and done, Jeff stated very clearly, that although Daigo was a phenomenal player (2004 Daigo was a Prime Daigo mind you)...he's leagues away from being as good as Tomo was in his prime.
You see, this is what annoys me, although I love Street Fighter IV, and I think it is a strategical fighting game (much more so then SFIII...I mean, you can't do worse then that). However with so much dependency upon Universal Options such as Ultras and what not...it waters down, what made Street Fighter unique and great within the first place..
Reasons why, whenever you ask me "Who was the Greatest Street Fighter Player ever?". I'll always say Tomo Ohira, simply because he had the greatest SF fundamentals of all time, along with the most skill and ridiculous reaction time ever. If OG SFII players like him, Jeff, Watson, were all in their prime playing ST today...even the Japanese would be watching youtube videos of figuring out how to be as good as they were.
SFIV...a double edge sword, it helped to revive the SF gaming community, however with so much dependency upon Universal Options, it decipates the fundamentals of what made it such a great series I can help but taste a sweet and sour notion in my mouth.
Not hating on SFIV, I still enjoy the game, however with this post, I hope people will have an understanding on what has changed through the tenure of Street Fighter's life as a fighting game.
Ps: I didn't bother to go back and read everything to edit, so any terrible sentencing or miss-spelled words would be due because of that.
Originally posted by ArtificialGlory
You mean Jeff Schaeffer?
Yep.
Didn't I post his videos here already?
Of him speaking about the scene of SFII back in the Golden Era? If I did, okay, however if not, you guys should go check it out, it's an incredible detail of how competitive the scene was back then, and how strong players were then.
You guys should see it, great wealth of knowledge pertaining to that era, from one of the best OG SFII players ever.
Originally posted by JustFrame
That's what annoys me the most about current SF games, or SF games with "Supers". You can win much of the match...however one mistake, a super/ultra lands and there goes 50-60% of your life...just because you threw out one fireball, or whiffed a poke...WOW. Not the same in Pre-SF games w/out supers, because winning by a sweeps worth of damage was gigantic, which made matches far more methodical and demanding by the player.
yep.. that shits been pissin me off for ages.. and it doesnt seem to be only the current sf games.. its like each and every single newer fighting game has some retarded comeback system, or supers that are all about flash and retarded damage..
I would personally rather watch a 10 minute 1 round fight with insane mindgames, than sit there and watch a 3 minute 5 round bout with a bunch of bullshit super / ultra and revenge systems (i.e. Ultra, Critical Counter, "Rage Mode" (lol)) deciding the match
I mean honestly.. when did any fighter need that shit?.. we've seen GREAT comebacks all the friggin time, and they didnt need some retarded free damage gimmick to get that comeback
Originally posted by ArtificialGlory
Didn't he lose the majority of matches to Daigo, though?
He won out either 7-4 or 7-3.
I can't remember for sure, however Jeff was clearly the better player then Daigo in SFII.
Jeff made a statement in his interview himself stating that Daigo was a phenomenal player, however he was leagues beyond Tomo Ohira. On another note as well, Jeff couldn't play his best character correctly due to the speed, and the fact that he couldn't get the range and timing down, which would of been Hyper Fighting Blanka.
Believe me when I say this...if you get mauled by what is dubbed the "Blanka Train" which was developed by Jeff years ago in HF, there is almost no way, any character can win effectively, besides a few characters who have the tools to counter it at certain points (ex: Ryu).
The overall basics of why OG players would win the overall match ups if not by a landslide in SFII, if they were in their primes is simple. They have better overall zoning, and footsie games that would give them a tremendous advantage over current Top SFII players. Like I said, if someone like Daigo, Kurahashi, Choi, Gian, Valle, Wolfe Bros were playing the OG SFII players in their prime...their skills would only be equivalent to an Upper-Tier player at the time. There is no way they would be in the top elite with the likes of Tomo, Jeff, Watson, Kuni etc, etc.
There's a vide of Norm vs Valle from I forgot when, however it was Chunli vs Ryu, Norm's Chunli is actually OG, because Norm is an OG player...obviously it was like either 2006 or 2007. However, Norm is long, long, long, long past his prime years of the early-mid 90's. However if you watch that match up on youtube, Norm just absolutely out footsies, out paces, and dominates the match up against Valle. Again, better zoning, footsies is the key in SFII, something that has been heavily watered down with current top SFII players. Just imagine if it was like...1993 Norm, their would have been a feast.
That's why to me it's frustrating to see...you watch a ton of SF:IV match ups...and you'll see tons of FADCxxUltra, or insert movexxUltra to turn the tide or win a match up.
Back when there wasn't supers or 50%+ draining one shot moves. If Blanka was winning by 3 pokes worth of damage...that was significant and huge, and more importantly, the reason so, is that with the overall player being vastly better at zoning and footsies...this meant, trying to gain the advantage over that was far harder to do.
In those days...jumping in was praying, and hoping you didn't get killed for it...in today's age..so many people jump seemingly with no fear...lack of overall footsies and zoning has allowed this sadly. However, Street Fighter isn't the only one to have followed within this trend...many other fighting games have (look at Tekken 6...one poke could mean you lose 60% life...that's absolute fail, and in this case, Tekken 6 is 10x worse then SF:IV at doing this which is even more sad).
To me, this is a trend that seemingly will not stop anytime soon, current players of today "need" special looking supers to get their attention and go "Wow, that's awesome, and crazy strategy!". However, it's doing the exact opposite, devaluing the strategical aspects of what was once there.
Playing fighting games, or in this case, SF is like playing with an auto-comeback button. You just don't know when that person will hit it, and it shows. It's 100% obvious in even my own experience and match ups playing Ryu from Super Turbo onward to SF:IV.
I am no longer the footsie monster I once was (obviously not in my prime anymore no doubt) because I can compensate my poor footsie game, for things like supers/ultras. Someday, I need to record my match ups and post on here to show you why, because playing as Ryu, I can literally...lose half the time in the round, however I'll land SrkxFadcxUltra...and turn the match up easily with this.
Same case as in SSF2T, or HD:Remix, even online, I'll lose much of the match up...but land Shinkuu-Hadouken, and bam, I'm back in the game, even when playing, my mentality has changed, because I'm saying to myself "No need for super crazy footsies when I've got a 50%+ draining super".
I'll guarantee this...if Capcom made another Street Fighter game, where there was no Universal garbage, supers, ultra's, or what not. The mentality would change dramatically, and you'll a huge shift in how the strategy would be played, not only that, it would turn to more of the OG mentality, which is the more strategy sound one. No joke, no lie, footsie games and zoning would improve greatly, however with the current trend...you most likely won't ever see that kind of domination again, ever.
To me, when someone currently today says "Daigo's the best" or "Mago's the best" or "Kurahashi has the best Guile of all time"....I seriously just *chuckle* and move on about my business, because they really have no idea what they are talking about.
Originally posted by JustFrame
He won out either 7-4 or 7-3.I can't remember for sure, however Jeff was clearly the better player then Daigo in SFII.
Jeff made a statement in his interview himself stating that Daigo was a phenomenal player, however he was leagues beyond Tomo Ohira. On another note as well, Jeff couldn't play his best character correctly due to the speed, and the fact that he couldn't get the range and timing down, which would of been Hyper Fighting Blanka.
Believe me when I say this...if you get mauled by what is dubbed the "Blanka Train" which was developed by Jeff years ago in HF, there is almost no way, any character can win effectively, besides a few characters who have the tools to counter it at certain points (ex: Ryu).
The overall basics of why OG players would win the overall match ups if not by a landslide in SFII, if they were in their primes is simple. They have better overall zoning, and footsie games that would give them a tremendous advantage over current Top SFII players. Like I said, if someone like Daigo, Kurahashi, Choi, Gian, Valle, Wolfe Bros were playing the OG SFII players in their prime...their skills would only be equivalent to an Upper-Tier player at the time. There is no way they would be in the top elite with the likes of Tomo, Jeff, Watson, Kuni etc, etc.
There's a vide of Norm vs Valle from I forgot when, however it was Chunli vs Ryu, Norm's Chunli is actually OG, because Norm is an OG player...obviously it was like either 2006 or 2007. However, Norm is long, long, long, long past his prime years of the early-mid 90's. However if you watch that match up on youtube, Norm just absolutely out footsies, out paces, and dominates the match up against Valle. Again, better zoning, footsies is the key in SFII, something that has been heavily watered down with current top SFII players. Just imagine if it was like...1993 Norm, their would have been a feast.
That's why to me it's frustrating to see...you watch a ton of SF:IV match ups...and you'll see tons of FADCxxUltra, or insert movexxUltra to turn the tide or win a match up.
Back when there wasn't supers or 50%+ draining one shot moves. If Blanka was winning by 3 pokes worth of damage...that was significant and huge, and more importantly, the reason so, is that with the overall player being vastly better at zoning and footsies...this meant, trying to gain the advantage over that was far harder to do.
In those days...jumping in was praying, and hoping you didn't get killed for it...in today's age..so many people jump seemingly with no fear...lack of overall footsies and zoning has allowed this sadly. However, Street Fighter isn't the only one to have followed within this trend...many other fighting games have (look at Tekken 6...one poke could mean you lose 60% life...that's absolute fail, and in this case, Tekken 6 is 10x worse then SF:IV at doing this which is even more sad).
To me, this is a trend that seemingly will not stop anytime soon, current players of today "need" special looking supers to get their attention and go "Wow, that's awesome, and crazy strategy!". However, it's doing the exact opposite, devaluing the strategical aspects of what was once there.
Playing fighting games, or in this case, SF is like playing with an auto-comeback button. You just don't know when that person will hit it, and it shows. It's 100% obvious in even my own experience and match ups playing Ryu from Super Turbo onward to SF:IV.
I am no longer the footsie monster I once was (obviously not in my prime anymore no doubt) because I can compensate my poor footsie game, for things like supers/ultras. Someday, I need to record my match ups and post on here to show you why, because playing as Ryu, I can literally...lose half the time in the round, however I'll land SrkxFadcxUltra...and turn the match up easily with this.
Same case as in SSF2T, or HD:Remix, even online, I'll lose much of the match up...but land Shinkuu-Hadouken, and bam, I'm back in the game, even when playing, my mentality has changed, because I'm saying to myself "No need for super crazy footsies when I've got a 50%+ draining super".
I'll guarantee this...if Capcom made another Street Fighter game, where there was no Universal garbage, supers, ultra's, or what not. The mentality would change dramatically, and you'll a huge shift in how the strategy would be played, not only that, it would turn to more of the OG mentality, which is the more strategy sound one. No joke, no lie, footsie games and zoning would improve greatly, however with the current trend...you most likely won't ever see that kind of domination again, ever.
To me, when someone currently today says "Daigo's the best" or "Mago's the best" or "Kurahashi has the best Guile of all time"....I seriously just *chuckle* and move on about my business, because they really have no idea what they are talking about.
lol does a long comment make you sound smarter? 😬
(im not trying to be a jerk)
Originally posted by pgdarth95
lol does a long comment make you sound smarter? 😬
(im not trying to be a jerk)
Not trying to sound "smarter" or more "intelligent" then anyone else, however I'm just showcasing what the differential and mentality was with current "top" SF players to OG SF players.
So, unless you can find a better way to explain something in less then 500 words, be my guest, and yes, I'm not trying to be a jerk either, I'm just stating that it's hard to compare two era's, with little to not saying without leaving people going "Wah?".
Anyhow, it's my way of venting frustration with some Current SF:IV players that I meet, who say things like "Daigo and Japan are the greatest SF players of all time, even in SFII!". <--- Notice the Bolded part. Case and point, only true today, because our level of competition has dropped by ten folds, and also false because Japan's current Top SFII best would get Ocved, mopped up, owned, nuked, murdered, butchered, genocide w/e you want to call it by the US OG SFII players.
However, I've always posted huge articles of encyclopedia's anyhow, I'd of thought most would've gotten used to it by now, lol. Anyhow, maybe next time, I'll talk about the Street Fighter II : Champion Edition Era (1992) from my own experience back in the day next time.
Originally posted by Overdose
Guy and Cody are up in this b1tch! IT'S ON LIKE A POT OF NECK BONES!!!Now if this game adds Alex, Sean, or Ibuki, SFIV would be 90 phuckin' % of what I wanted it to be.
I'm mostly excited for Adon's announcement, but with all the ultra / super overdose, lord knows whats gonna happen