Superman vs Silver surfer

Originally posted by Mindship
With all that the power cosmic can do, it would make no sense that the Surfer could not have top-tier combat speed when so much else can be (or is already) amped. Why would reflexes be the exception? But then, SS should be able to fly (or at least, not tumble like a girlyman) when knocked off his board. But we rarely if ever see that too. Why?

For the same reason Wonder Woman still uses bracelets to deflect bullets even though she can take punches from Superman (the "demoralize enemies" and pounds psi reasons really don't hold up).

Characters become trapped by convention, by reader expectation. If the Surfer became an expert martial artist (or flew w/o his board), these would seem very out-of-character, like eg Superman doing aerial acrobatics like Spiderman. We rarely (if ever) see Superman doing that, yet would we say because of this Spiderman is more agile than Superman (doubtful, since Big Blue already has superspeed and should have superbalance, supercoordination, etc)? Certainly it would seem Spidey > Supes in agility, based on on-panel feats (and IIRC, there have been times were superagility would've come in handy).

Each character has their own on-panel "skill territory," so to speak. Boundaries are not crossed. But if we examine powersets closely, independent of on-panel deployment, we find that almost any given character should be able to do a lot more than typically depicted.

Yeah we all know about CIS/PIS and characters whom act for the purposes of the story, but when something happens on a consistent basis maybe its fair to assume it isnt within that characters powerset. Technically, Supes should have KO'ed Diana in the sacrifice fight given his past feats yet it would be lame to have Diana out in 2 panels plus she needed to kill maxwell for story purposes.

In this case, Norin has never demonstrated H2H combat speed but I dont think its because of anything relating to CIS....maybe its just because he isnt able to move that quick and doesnt have the skill to do so.

Originally posted by Avlon
I haven't seen anything provided on the Surfer side regarding battle speed of any kind though. It's all still travel. In your opinion, could Surfer run with Quicksilver?

I know Supes can run with the Flash (at least until the Speedforce comes in.)

Originally posted by Avlon
Fair enough. Only thing is that we know Superman can do just about anything at Superspeed when he wants to. We haven't seen that from Surfer yet. He mostly uses it for travel. When he's off the board, he hasn't even been seen past Spidey speed.

http://img516.imageshack.us/img516/...01combatwa4.jpg LMAO, Hulk....who doesnt speedblitz him. Show me a scan of SS blitzing quick silver or gladiator H2H then we will talk.

Originally posted by The Great Galen
http://img516.imageshack.us/img516/...01combatwa4.jpg LMAO, Hulk....who doesnt speedblitz him. Show me a scan of SS blitzing quick silver or gladiator H2H then we will talk.

Originally posted by The Great Galen
In this case, Norin has never demonstrated H2H combat speed but I dont think its because of anything relating to CIS....maybe its just because he isnt able to move that quick and doesnt have the skill to do so.

I understand what you're saying about CIS, and it's a debate path I really don't like going down because it can be a very subjective path. And I would even grant you this: if we don't see much top-tier h2h speed from SS it's largely because he usually doesn't have to use it, just like Supes doesn't have to twirl, dodge and flip through the air like Spider-man to deal with an oncoming assault.

I would also say this: will I do think the Surfer is very much capable of top-tier h2h speed, martial-art skill is another matter. The latter has to be learned, and because the Surfer is not a martial artist, or even an experienced, proficient brawler, in a direct h2h confrontation (nothing else), Supes would beat the Surfer.

Originally posted by Mindship
Accordingly, Spider-Man must trump Superman in agility because Supes (afaik) has never demonstrated super-agility (anyone have a scan--or preferably, several--to the contrary?).

I understand what you're saying about CIS, and it's a debate path I really don't like going down because it can be a very subjective path. And I would even grant you this: if we don't see much top-tier h2h speed from SS it's largely because he usually doesn't have to use it, just like Supes doesn't have to twirl, dodge and flip through the air like Spider-man to deal with an oncoming assault.

I would also say this: will I do think the Surfer is very much capable of top-tier h2h speed, martial-art skill is another matter. The latter has to be learned, and because the Surfer is not a martial artist, or even an experienced, proficient brawler, in a direct h2h confrontation (nothing else), Supes would beat the Surfer.

Every now and then, he'll pull out some acrobatic stunts. Seems to happen more when he's depowered though.

Even without MA, Supes has shown the ability to blitz other characters that have Superspeed or even tag them at such speed himself.

Originally posted by Avlon
Every now and then, he'll pull out some acrobatic stunts. Seems to happen more when he's depowered though.

It's like if he took a whizz. We've never seen him do it, but I'm sure he could take out low-flying aircraft from ground level.

Well at any rate, the only way SS is winning this is at a distance with red sun bolts. I dont really know if k-nite is even possible since I dont know if SS is capable of duplicating it much like thanos-cide. A h2h confrontation would be what ruins Supes.

Well kryptonite is just a mineral, nothing like Thanos-cide, it would be way easier to replicate.

Originally posted by Mindset
Well kryptonite is just a mineral, nothing like Thanos-cide, it would be way easier to replicate.

Originally posted by The Great Galen
Well at any rate, the only way SS is winning this is at a distance with red sun bolts. I dont really know if k-nite is even possible since I dont know if SS is capable of duplicating it much like thanos-cide. A h2h confrontation would be what ruins Supes.

he could form a large energy-prism to encase them both, keeping solar energies of the frequency that Superman's cells metabolise out.

Superman would then have a limited amount of time within which to both defend against Surfer's attacks as well as counter-attack himself, before his store of power runs to nought.

Surfer could give Superman's dna a rewrite or give the actual cells an overdose, giving Superman the equivalent of an aggressive skin cancer.

Surfer could absorb all Superman's HV into himself, by tricking Superman into attacking multiple illusory "Surfers", that he casts around the battlezone (Surfer's illusions are both massive enough to surround a planet and realistic enough to fool even Galactus).

I can't think of a reasonable way for Surfer to lose to Superman, unless Surfer just stands there and lets Superman keep hitting him with his best shots for a considerable length of time...

Originally posted by Mindship
Regardless, I had a feeling he could do it. 😉 It would make no sense if he couldn't, since it is consistent with his powerset.

Yup, and seeing it's on panel multiple times and confirmed, it seals the deal on that case. 😉

Originally posted by Mindship
It's like if he took a whizz. We've never seen him do it, but I'm sure he could take out low-flying aircraft from ground level.

That's one I don't want to see on panel. 😉

Originally posted by janus77
there's no reason for Surfer to resort to Kryptonite or Red Sun energy (though both are very easy for him to muster), when he can easily mess with Superman's access to Yellow Sun energy.

he could form a large energy-prism to encase them both, keeping solar energies of the frequency that Superman's cells metabolise out.

Superman would then have a limited amount of time within which to both defend against Surfer's attacks as well as counter-attack himself, before his store of power runs to nought.

Surfer could give Superman's dna a rewrite or give the actual cells an overdose, giving Superman the equivalent of an aggressive skin cancer.

Surfer could absorb all Superman's HV into himself, by tricking Superman into attacking multiple illusory "Surfers", that he casts around the battlezone (Surfer's illusions are both massive enough to surround a planet and realistic enough to fool even Galactus).

I can't think of a reasonable way for Surfer to lose to Superman, unless Surfer just stands there and lets Superman keep hitting him with his best shots for a considerable length of time...

Highly speculative considering SS is dealing with someone who has greater physical strength and faster combat speed....plus better h2h skills. SS wins come from Supes k-nite weakness and thats about it.....no make up powers k.

Originally posted by The Great Galen
Highly speculative considering SS is dealing with someone who has greater physical strength and faster combat speed....plus better h2h skills. SS wins come from Supes k-nite weakness and thats about it.....no make up powers k.

Surfer is to all intents and purposes much much faster than Superman.
combat skills might not be his forte, but dodging and blasting would easily dispatch Superman, so Surfer needs little in the way of h2h skill.

as for physical strength, Surfer has no need to rely upon it but given that he can amp indefinitely, that assertion of Superman's superiority doesn't really stand up either.

as I say, there's nothing Superman can actually do, if Surfer doesn't job to Superman, to get a win here.

Originally posted by janus77
you're supposed to prove your assertions, not build conclusions upon them as if they were fact.

It would be nice if you followed your own advice.

Originally posted by Avlon

It would be nice if you followed your own advice.

anyway, how do you see Superman beating Surfer?

Originally posted by janus77
if you actually stopped ignoring evidence, you might realise that I - and others - do.

What evidence have you provided outside of wildly (hilarious) and exaggerated claims?

Originally posted by janus77
you're supposed to prove your assertions, not build conclusions upon them as if they were fact.

Surfer is to all intents and purposes much much faster than Superman.
combat skills might not be his forte, but dodging and blasting would easily dispatch Superman, so Surfer needs little in the way of h2h skill.

as for physical strength, Surfer has no need to rely upon it but given that he can amp indefinitely, that assertion of Superman's superiority doesn't really stand up either.

as I say, there's nothing Superman can actually do, if Surfer doesn't job to Superman, to get a win here.

Right, because Supes wont be able to dodge SS blast since Norin is some kind of expert marksman that can fire bolts 100 times faster then light right. The dodging comment is funny...in a h2h assult SS will be doing no dodging.Physcially speeaking ur just talking out of ur ask, SS can amp himself but is there anything to indicate it can be to Supes levels. Show me a strength feat that is comparable otherwise its pure speculative BS..if anything the asserition that SS strength is even comparable to supes doesnt stand up since there is no strength feats to indicate this. Supes wins this if the fight narrows to a h2h assult..otherwise I agree norin takes it.

Originally posted by janus77
there's no reason for Surfer to resort to Kryptonite or Red Sun energy (though both are very easy for him to muster), when he can easily mess with Superman's access to Yellow Sun energy.

he could form a large energy-prism to encase them both, keeping solar energies of the frequency that Superman's cells metabolise out.

Superman would then have a limited amount of time within which to both defend against Surfer's attacks as well as counter-attack himself, before his store of power runs to nought.

Surfer could give Superman's dna a rewrite or give the actual cells an overdose, giving Superman the equivalent of an aggressive skin cancer.

Surfer could absorb all Superman's HV into himself, by tricking Superman into attacking multiple illusory "Surfers", that he casts around the battlezone (Surfer's illusions are both massive enough to surround a planet and realistic enough to fool even Galactus).

I can't think of a reasonable way for Surfer to lose to Superman, unless Surfer just stands there and lets Superman keep hitting him with his best shots for a considerable length of time...

And with his cosmic awareness...there are more that a few other ways to take Superman out and fairly fast.

Anyone with half a brain knows Superman is never taking a majority versus Norrin.

😗