time and space stopped for all OTHERS, Surfer and LT speak and then Surfer sets off on LT's errand I think.
what's stupid about that scene is Surfer even attempting to lecture LT about personal safety... if Surfer hadn't swerved and reacted instantly, he'd have been a stain on LT's breast plate. that's all.
Originally posted by Avlon
Actually it's not. In the same scan 1st it says that LI appears in the DISTANT starscape. The living Tribunal then adds that speed and distance don't have any relevance since time has stopped.
But anyway...
Originally posted by darthgoober
You know Avy, I just realized why the two of us always end up trapped in the same circles. See I'm always trying to defend Surfer ability to respond to an unquantified blitz and that's just not possible. We need to know what level of speed Surfer's going to HAVE to react to before we can properly determine whether or not it's possible.So what's the fastest confirmed blitzing speed Supes has used in combat? Once I know that, then I'll know what to shoot for in terms of reflex feats for Surfer.
Originally posted by Avlon
Did Drax and Pip move FTL while stealing the board as Surfer lay on the ground?
Superman stands no chance against Surfer, so no sensible arguments made by proponents of the "superman speedblitz" line 😐.
Originally posted by darthgoober
You know Avy, I just realized why the two of us always end up trapped in the same circles. See I'm always trying to defend Surfer ability to respond to an unquantified blitz and that's just not possible. We need to know what level of speed Surfer's going to HAVE to react to before we can properly determine whether or not it's possible.So what's the fastest confirmed blitzing speed Supes has used in combat? Once I know that, then I'll know what to shoot for in terms of reflex feats for Surfer.
Quantifiable is a pretty open ended term Darth. What exactly would you expect in a scan or example? What could you do to provide proof on your end?
The examples I've listed earlier are great examples and stand on their own as physical/battle reflexes.
Originally posted by Avlon
Quantifiable is a pretty open ended term Darth. What exactly would you expect in a scan or example? What could you do to provide proof on your end?
You have to prove the extent of Supes blitzing capabilities before we can determine whether or not they're beyond Surfer's ability to react to.
Originally posted by Avlon
The examples I've listed earlier are great examples and stand on their own as physical/battle reflexes.
Originally posted by Soljerqft
Am I the only one that feels it's pretty inane to think that either Superman OR the Surfer could speedblitz the other?
both of these guys are mega fast but they are both reactive fighters. both are pacifists at heart that for the most part need to get riled up first, then appropriately dispatch their opponent.
and they both hold back a lot, the only thing is that norrin has the tools to play on the weaknesses of a kryptonian.
Originally posted by darthgooberI believe all his reaction feats were brought into play because they his reaction time was questioned by the Superman side. I think its been proven that no one has a decisive speed advantage here though.
Nope. Though I don't really remember anyone making a serious claim that Surfer would blitz Supes(I may have just overlooked it though).
Originally posted by darthgoober
By quantifiable I mean an unquestionable indication of speed during a blitz. Something with a solid indication that can in no way be questioned or reasoned away. I mean that's what your wanting from Surfer right? If there needs to be a direct and definate statement of speed to prove Surfer's other than his own words than I expect the same from Supes.
I haven't seen anything provided on the Surfer side regarding battle speed of any kind though. It's all still travel. In your opinion, could Surfer run with Quicksilver?
I know Supes can run with the Flash (at least until the Speedforce comes in.)
Originally posted by darthgoober
You have to prove the extent of Supes blitzing capabilities before we can determine whether or not they're beyond Surfer's ability to react to.
Fair enough. Only thing is that we know Superman can do just about anything at Superspeed when he wants to. We haven't seen that from Surfer yet. He mostly uses it for travel. When he's off the board, he hasn't even been seen past Spidey speed.
Originally posted by darthgoober
Yes they are, but few are quantifiable and not all of them are combat feats.
They don't all have to be. I named those because of their diverse nature. Lobo travels the universe on his bike at speeds comparable to surfer and yet Superman has blitzed him when pissed.
With all that the power cosmic can do, it would make no sense that the Surfer could not have top-tier combat speed when so much else can be (or is already) amped. Why would reflexes be the exception? But then, SS should be able to fly (or at least, not tumble like a girlyman) when knocked off his board. But we rarely if ever see that too. Why?
For the same reason Wonder Woman still uses bracelets to deflect bullets even though she can take punches from Superman (the "demoralize enemies" and pounds psi reasons really don't hold up).
Characters become trapped by convention, by reader expectation. If the Surfer became an expert martial artist (or flew w/o his board), these would seem very out-of-character, like eg Superman doing aerial acrobatics like Spiderman. We rarely (if ever) see Superman doing that, yet would we say because of this Spiderman is more agile than Superman (doubtful, since Big Blue already has superspeed and should have superbalance, supercoordination, etc)? Certainly it would seem Spidey > Supes in agility, based on on-panel feats (and IIRC, there have been times were superagility would've come in handy).
Each character has their own on-panel "skill territory," so to speak. Boundaries are not crossed. But if we examine powersets closely, independent of on-panel deployment, we find that almost any given character should be able to do a lot more than typically depicted.
Avlon, I don't know if you decided to "un-ignore" me, but I personally won't respond unless you tell me that I am un-ignored. I'll wait until you were clear on the matter. I'd rather not prefer to engage in an ignore-unignore dance.
Originally posted by fangirl101You don't have to be faster than Superman in order to tag him. Just as often as Surfer has been tagged by slower opponents, Superman has twice as many instances where he gets tagged by slower opponents.
Of course amazo had to use the flashes speed. using Super's speed wouldn't have been enough. He needed someone faster. I dont' think Superman nor Surfer are as Durable as DS. Becuz Superman could not stan up to his own assault of that calibre. As noted when he and zod where beating the hell out of each other. Zod's strength is comparible to Superman's. DS took Superman's best to no effect. I'm saying Surfer would have to use some combination of high durability and faster than superman speed to be able to pull of a victory. can surfer do that. Sure. Not more than 5/10 IMO. If surfer were that fast, he wouldn't get blasted like a silly every time slow thanos threw a blast at him. he'd evade or shield himself. Just my two cents.
Originally posted by RaoulNo. But it's obvious that you don't approve of the simplistic and infantile lowballing I did right there. And rightly so, because neither do I. But that's exactly what happens when other peope start throwing BPvSS PIS or other low feats into the mix, whilst ignoring that character's established average speed and high-end feats. I consider it perfectly acceptable to engage in a lowballing contest as long as those same people are ready to apply that same scrutiny to their own position. And frankly, for this particular debate here, I assure you, for every single instance where Surfer gets tagged embarassingly, I can show you two instances where Superman gets tagged even more embarassingly.
hey, dude, what the- wait, you're not quan...
Oops. Guess Batman's fast enough to dodge Atomic Skull, but he's too fast for Superman:
Oops. Sometimes being faster than a speeding bullet ain't enough. Shame that. I'm sure these people would have liked living:
I'd prefer not to debate this way, but hey, it's not like my position is weakened in any way. Superman's got tons more appearances and by simple virtue of that, tons more low feats. I don't mind at all.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0Interesting. Wow Supes was nowhere near fast enough to stop all those bullets. Ill keep the scans.
Avlon, I don't know if you decided to "un-ignore" me, but I personally won't respond unless you tell me that I am un-ignored. I'll wait until you were clear on the matter. I'd rather not prefer to engage in an ignore-unignore dance.
You don't have to be faster than Superman in order to tag him. Just as often as Surfer has been tagged by slower opponents, Superman has twice as many instances where he gets tagged by slower opponents.
No. But it's obvious that you don't approve of the simplistic and infantile lowballing I did right there. And rightly so, because neither do I. But that's exactly what happens when other peope start throwing BPvSS PIS or other low feats into the mix, whilst ignoring that character's established average speed and high-end feats. I consider it perfectly acceptable to engage in a lowballing contest as long as those same people are ready to apply that same scrutiny to their own position. And frankly, for this particular debate here, I assure you, for every single instance where Surfer gets tagged embarassingly, I can show you two instances where Superman gets tagged even more embarassingly.Oops. Guess Batman's fast enough to dodge Atomic Skull, but he's too fast for Superman:
Oops. Sometimes being faster than a speeding bullet ain't enough. Shame that. I'm sure these people would have liked living:
I'd prefer not to debate this way, but hey, it's not like my position is weakened in any way. Superman's got tons more appearances and by simple virtue of that, tons more low feats. I don't mind at all.
