Superman vs Silver surfer

Started by Avlon387 pages
Avlon Godot Brew#107
Originally posted by Mindship
Gotta disagree here. I like to set up fights as if I were writing the actual comic. And one scenario I envision (similar to what you've suggested) is a very specific SS/S confrontation: the Surfer is double-arm continuous-beam blasting (a typical SS manuever) at an on-coming Superman who's taking the blast squarely in the chest (typical for Big Blue).

This does sound like a proper scenario and one that I can envision.

Originally posted by Mindship
The question becomes: who is out-right more powerful? Does the Surfer force Superman back (or at least hold him at bay), or does Superman advance, and if so, how quickly? This is probably the one scenario where I'd have to go with a stalemate. But even if I were to say Superman advances, it would be slowly and painfully.

This I will have to disagree with considering Superman has flown through disintegration beams with ease or can even vibrate through them. In a sense, cosmic energy blasts may actually empower Superman similar to the evilstar fight.

Originally posted by Mindship
From either case, I'd follow up with something like this: Superman realizes this is not his best attack strategy and superspeeds out of the line of fire. Simultaneously, the Surfer realizes here's an opponent who's going to require more than brute force and nanospeed analyzes what attack might work best.

There is the part that I'm having trouble with as nothing has shown Surfer to react to that type of speed in battle.

Originally posted by Mindship
I won't go past this point as I believe most follow-up scenarios have been discussed, generally with the Surfer exploiting Superman's weaknesses or using some other exotic power, while Superman seeks to close the distance for h2h. All this then brings us back to the speed factor, at which point I'd like to reiterate a point I think darth mentioned: the Surfer doesn't have to necessarily have comparable h2h speed (which would appear to favor Supes). He need only be fast enough to respond, even defensively, like setting up a forcefield, and Surfer has been shown to be fast enough to do that even against energy beams already in transit (this is also ignoring for the moment the Surfer's "natural" durability, and whether Superman could one-shot him).

The laser dodging feats are relatively weaksauce because it's something we see human level characters do all the time. Additionally if something so ambiguous can be used then Supes far ftl with WW to the sun and back is fair game.

Originally posted by Mindship
This is a tough battle for me, because it's pitting my favorite against my second favorite.

I totally understand bro. It's like me pitting Dark Schneider vs Supes.

ultimatethor Senior Member

Really this debate should have been over a long time ago. evn the superman fans readily admit that his only way of beating SS is physical combat. Yet they choose to blatantly ignore the fact that SS has very high level defeneses against such attacks which are his already ultra high durability and his forcfeields. And it is is very obvious that SS can beat supes a numerous amount of other ways. I evn posted a scan of supes himself saying how dangerous draining the enrgy from his cells would be. This is something SS can easily accomplish. Now ive noticed a nice bit of manipulation of the "in character rule " by some. These people believe that SS creating a forcefield or using his exotic powers would be outof character but that superman attacking him at light speed isnt. This is utter nonsense. The fact is that SS is more likely to use his exotic powers to end the match quickly do to his personality than supes is to hit SS with millions of punches at light speed plus. This is assumption is made without anyone even establishing the fact that supes can and has attacked anyone at such speeds in the first place!

Personally i believe the in character rule should be applied fairly to both sides. SS using tactics he has actually been shown to use in comics is in no way out of character. In the same vein superman using his speed in this fight is not out of character either because he has been shown to use it in comics. Howver there has to be a blance superman attacking SS with millions of punches in a micro second is as out of character as SS creating a blackhole in supes retina. Supes has never evn come close to performing this and so i have no idea why its evn being referenced.

With that being said SS combat speed and skills wont evn come into play in this fight. In this area supes is undoubtedly superior but it really does not matter as SS truckload of other powers will easily negate this advantage of supes. As for the question of who is more powerful that keeps coming up. It is certainly SS. Indeed being more versatile does not make u more powerful, but being among the top dogs in almost evry single aspect of ur powers coupled with having alot more useful powers than ur counter part( versatility) makes u undoubtedly more powerful.

If this happened in a comic SS could because of the way the fight would be writtten out. However i think that equating the way it is written in a comic with the in character rule as some are doing is wrong. This creates scenarios of SS simply blasting supes and not doing anything else. This directly contradicts the PIS rule. As i said the in character rule creates a balance between a character fighting smartly and a character doing things that r outrageous. When u take evrything into consideration, SS is still the clear winner.

Ambient MAJIN_OVERLORD

Originally posted by Philosophía
Magneto knew where the opponent arrived by sensing the disruptions along the magnetic lines of force, thus sensing where he would arrive after Nightcrawler teleported, while Surfer saw and calculated his trajectory, both of them doing essentially the same thing, only through different methods. They both reacted after the opponent teleported. They both, through different means, knew where the opponent would arrive. They both attacked the opponent once he got there. What can be argued is that, due to the different methods used by each one of them, Silver Surfer might have done more than Magneto did between the opponent teleporting from where he was to the point he wanted to go, which I can agree with, but the difference is so small that the feats still remain similar.

And you misunderstood me, I'm not trying to show that Magneto has reaction time on par with Surfer, or that he is able to keep up with Supes, it's to show that using that feat to prove that Surfer is on par with Supes when it comes to speed is meaningless.

Anyway, we're running in circles, and I think you see my point.


I got yah.. lets stop dissecting that scan..lol

Here's the thing dough, the scan being debated is just among the few of Surfer w/ ftl reflex/reaction feat and not everything is based on this lone scan to prove its in him to parry/avoid instant ftl blitziz. I think pared that w/ high durability and shield manipulation he can go toe to toe with Supes for a time .. Win, highly unlikely less he plays the weakness.

When it comes to battle speed Supes >>>Surfer and i don't think anybody is disputing that..

Mindship Snap out of it.

Originally posted by Avlon
This I will have to disagree with considering Superman has flown through disintegration beams with ease or can even vibrate through them. In a sense, cosmic energy blasts may actually empower Superman similar to the evilstar fight.
This sounds like something which could be more writer-determined than anything else.

There is the part that I'm having trouble with as nothing has shown Surfer to react to that type of speed in battle.
As an example to the contrary: that "infamous" scan showing Surfer breaking from his bonds before another nanosecond can pass implies he's thinking (as well as acting) at nanospeeds. Also, when he's analyzing the teleportation trajectory (another example). It may not be h2h, but again, h2h is generally not Surfer's typical response.

The laser dodging feats are relatively weaksauce because it's something we see human level characters do all the time.
Does Batman (eg) really dodge the beam already in flight, or has he just anticipated his attacker's aim? Personally, I scoff at pretty much anyone dodging a light beam (even if they have FTL reflexes) for this simple reason: how can one see the beam coming if the "warning light" is traveling no faster than the laser beam itself? For a character to be able to do this implies some sort of FTL perception (psychic? tachyons?) as well as FTL reflexes.

I totally understand bro. It's like me pitting Dark Schneider vs Supes.
Dark Schneider. Definitely one of the best monikers around.

ultimatethor Senior Member

Originally posted by h1a8
Please read this entire post before responding as I most like might concede to SS winning in the end.

Two times makes numerous times doesn't it? What about three times? SS using a forcefield is one of the rarest things in all of comics. Just look at all the SS comics and you will see what I'm talking about. Superman has used speed in battle at least 10x more times than SS has used a forcefield. How do you think everyone and their mama know that Supes is fast?

Of the very few times SS has used a shield how many times did he do so in battle against another being? What is the percentage of times he used a shield in battle vs. all the battles he has been in? The same logic that applies to Supes should apply to SS. Fair is fair!

I personally don't use statistics heavily when arguing fights. If a character has performed something at least a few times then it is acceptable that they can do it in the forum fight. Thus I give SS his shields and Supes his speed.

If SS can get shields all around him then he wins and I gladly concede. If he can't then Supes has a good chance to tag him. And know that I prefer SS over Supes any day of the week. This is because he has far the better powers. It's just that SS has disappointed me with his fighting many many times and it's very hard for me to see him stopping Supes from hitting him without fighting out of character.

Really i dont know where u r getting that SS has only using forcefields rarely. I showed like ten examples of SS using forcefields of different shapes,sizes and compositions and creating them at extremely high speeds.. U say that i should check SS comics and i will see its true but frankly most of the comics i have are SS comics ( quite a lot actually) and the occurrence is not as rare as u claim it is. I even have more scans of SS using forcefields and i can post them if u like. Further supes has certainly not used his speed in battle evn close to 10 times more than SS has used forcefields. The reasons that people who dont even read comics know that supes has superspeed are that it is in his bio and evry description of superman and also that he is the most popular superhero in existence and hence his powers such as "superspeed
superstrength and superhearing etc.( emphasis on the super) are common knowledge. Him using it in battle has absolutely nothing to do with it.

Now regarding ur question of SS using his fields in battle, indeed he has not used it as frequently as some of his other powers such as cosmic blasts. Howver this is mostly due to his being able to rely on his personal durability and PIS. Further i dont dispute supes ability to blitz SS or use his speed in battle. What i am challeneging is his ability to use it to the degree which will cause a danger to SS. that is the claims of him being able to hurt SS badly before SS can create a forcefield considering the speed at which ss can create forcefields.

LAstly evn in the unlikely event that supes hits him first what makes u think that the fight is over for SS? One superman punch no matter how hard is NEVER going to put down SS and im sorry 2 say it but anyone that thinks it will is loony. Supes wont be able to get enough hits on SS for to considerably damage him b4 his forcefield comes up that is if he can evn get in any hit. Further using forcfields is not out of SS character just like supes using his speed( to a reasonable degree) is not out of his character either. This forum is PIS free so both are valid tactics.

darthgoober Senior Member

Originally posted by fangirl101
In Superman Batman 25 Superman got in and let go. But DS was really just too tough. A lessor opponent would have fallen. And since we know how fast DS reaction times are, it's fair to say, Superman can catch pretty much anyone but the flash or WW( those bracers) off guard.

Yeah... that never happened. I just checked the book and DS and Supes never even came to blows.

TricksterPriest Renegade Timelord

Darkseid backhanded Supes when he tried a blitz. After that, DS was dominating, until Wondy reflected the OE back at his face. After that, sun-amp, and 'boom-tube' to the source.

You're lucky we're not using that for a speed feat. 😉

Avlon: Wouldn't most incarnations of Darsh be spite against Supes?

fangirl101 Restricted

Originally posted by darthgoober
Yeah... that never happened. I just checked the book and DS and Supes never even came to blows.

Um, Superman blitzed DS after which DS retaliated with a pimp hand. Superman did catch DS off guard with the first strike.

darthgoober Senior Member

Originally posted by Avlon
I've addressed that enough. Now if you want to believe it was done with malicious intent (it wasn't) unlike others who did post with the sole intention of spite then that is fine.

I never suggested that it was done with malicious intent. I never said that you and quan did the same thing for the same reason, I was comparing the effect(basing an argument on a low showing) not the cause.

Originally posted by Avlon
I had a VERY LONG post with MULTIPLE scans that summed up a lot. Basically, it showed that Supes can do practically anything using Superspeed and it is in character. Outside of Surfers traveling, his speed is fairly negligible in battle in comparison to Supes whether in or out of character.

Nonsense...

Surfer tracking and reacting to someone TELEPORTING behind him…
http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/6231/silversurfer198902312rp5.jpg

Surfer blocking an energy blast after it's fired…
http://img60.imageshack.us/img60/4254/silversurferannual0124re5.jpg

Surfer dodging energy blast after they’re fired while on his board…
http://img524.imageshack.us/img524/6328/silversurferannual0624rx0.jpg
http://img505.imageshack.us/img505/37/silversurferannual0625rl2.jpg

Surfer ducking beneath an energy blast after it's fired while OFF his board…
http://img60.imageshack.us/img60/8656/silversurferv306409hn2.jpg

Originally posted by Avlon
Now the scan with SS catching DD and Spidey (even though they did jump right at him) is not a bad one, but still pales to Superman's higher battle showings.

That scan had nothing to do with a comparison between between Supes and Surfer's speed, it was brought up as a specific contradiction of the BP/Surfer encounter. That's why I specifically said...
Originally posted by darthgoober
If he can simultaneously grab both DD and Spiderman by the throat when they go swinging in on him…
http://img244.imageshack.us/img244/9884/silversurferv3128p14pa4.jpg
http://img524.imageshack.us/img524/8136/silversurferv3128p17tx7.jpg

…then he should be able to do the same to BP.

Now I know you're going to say something to the effect of...

Originally posted by Avlon
The laser dodging feats are relatively weaksauce because it's something we see human level characters do all the time.

...but may I ask who? Dodging a bullet after it's fired is considered a major feat for a street level character and an impressive feat for a low meta character, so who are all these regular humans that have scans of their dodging/reacting to energy blast and lasers after they're fired floating around?

Originally posted by Avlon
Thanks. Not that I broke any rules nor was I posting my debate with malicious intent at the time. Nor did I catch any attitude with people trying to lowball, since with Supes it's fairly easy to find scans to overturn just about any low showing.

Even as I said long ago, if kept in character, they will fly at each other with SS blasting and Supes punching... and that scenario favors Superman greatly.


If kept in character the way you're speaking of(which happens to be incorrect by forum standards), speed's not going to be a factor at all because Supes isn't going to use any. And since Surfer's blast have more impressive showings of power output(like a single blast creating a blackhole), I'd say that the scenario favors him since the two have comparable durability and Surfer's blast will let him keep distance between the two.

Originally posted by Avlon
Once semantics start coming out, then it becomes a long drawn out game of ti- for-tat. T-Vo can negate Surfers arsenal but of course since it seems out of character for Supes, people don't really like to debate it much.

People don't debate T-Vo because it's too ill-defined to do so effectively. It would be like bringing up She-Hulk's 4th wall combat options in a serious debate. Besides, I think that if Supes pulls himself and someone else onto the astral plane he's committed technically a self BFR because he voluntarily left the battlefield.

Originally posted by Avlon
It's a circular debate in which after a few days gets pretty boring. I don't know about you, but I find it best to debate when I'm having a good time and have a huge interest in the topic. Since this comes up every couple of months anyway, I'm sure we'll be doing this dance again soon enough.

Meh...

fangirl101 Restricted

Wait. one freaking minute? How in the hell someone can compare surfer reacting, blocking, and etc to superman doing shit like building stuff, attacking, running at superspeed is just like wow. NOT EVEN CLOSE to being comparible. A human being can dodge a lightning bolt. and surfer has energy powers. he should be able to figure out where a bolt of energy is comign from and defend himself from it. it after all cannot change course or alter it's tactics.

darthgoober Senior Member

Originally posted by fangirl101
Wait. one freaking minute? How in the hell someone can compare surfer reacting, blocking, and etc to superman doing shit like building stuff, attacking, running at superspeed is just like wow. NOT EVEN CLOSE to being comparible. A human being can dodge a lightning bolt. and surfer has energy powers. he should be able to figure out where a bolt of energy is comign from and defend himself from it. it after all cannot change course or alter it's tactics.

What humans can you think of that have instances of dodging/blocking energy blast and lasers after they're fired to their credit?

And the scans don't aren't meant to prove that Surfer fights at super speed like Supes, they're meant to prove that he can RESPOND to Supes's speed.

TricksterPriest Renegade Timelord

I''m not going to believe Surfer has anywhere near the reaction speed that Supes does when Superman can build a city with his bare hands in two panels. Surfer has no coordination feats on that level.

darthgoober Senior Member

Originally posted by fangirl101
Um, Superman blitzed DS after which DS retaliated with a pimp hand. Superman did catch DS off guard with the first strike.

Really? Well here's the whole book, so am I just overlooking it or something...
http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/9661/00qy7.jpg
http://img359.imageshack.us/img359/3935/01gf3.jpg
http://img165.imageshack.us/img165/5830/0203qo2.jpg
http://img181.imageshack.us/img181/8782/04bj5.jpg
http://img300.imageshack.us/img300/4408/05hu5.jpg
http://img295.imageshack.us/img295/9227/06tw4.jpg
http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/2635/07ly8.jpg
http://img295.imageshack.us/img295/5182/0809tw4.jpg
http://img93.imageshack.us/img93/9558/10gy5.jpg
http://img165.imageshack.us/img165/2323/11nq5.jpg
http://img181.imageshack.us/img181/294/1213uk7.jpg
http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/2666/1415dr4.jpg
http://img181.imageshack.us/img181/3058/16jn7.jpg
http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/1672/17ju9.jpg
http://img181.imageshack.us/img181/2856/18qu7.jpg
http://img166.imageshack.us/img166/7067/19xg0.jpg
http://img165.imageshack.us/img165/7332/2021bh3.jpg
http://img295.imageshack.us/img295/2709/22xk7.jpg

darthgoober Senior Member

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
I''m not going to believe Surfer has anywhere near the reaction speed that Supes does when Superman can build a city with his bare hands in two panels. Surfer has no coordination feats on that level.

Surfer searched the surface of the entire planet in one panel...

fangirl101 Restricted

Originally posted by darthgoober
What humans can you think of that have instances of dodging/blocking energy blast and lasers after they're fired to their credit?

And the scans don't aren't meant to prove that Surfer fights at super speed like Supes, they're meant to prove that he can RESPOND to Supes's speed.


What the hell? a laser is a one time thing? a being fighting and moving at superspeed and changing tactics is just much different than a blast fired.

fangirl101 Restricted

Originally posted by darthgoober
Really? Well here's the whole book, so am I just overlooking it or something...
http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/9661/00qy7.jpg
http://img359.imageshack.us/img359/3935/01gf3.jpg
http://img165.imageshack.us/img165/5830/0203qo2.jpg
http://img181.imageshack.us/img181/8782/04bj5.jpg
http://img300.imageshack.us/img300/4408/05hu5.jpg
http://img295.imageshack.us/img295/9227/06tw4.jpg
http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/2635/07ly8.jpg
http://img295.imageshack.us/img295/5182/0809tw4.jpg
http://img93.imageshack.us/img93/9558/10gy5.jpg
http://img165.imageshack.us/img165/2323/11nq5.jpg
http://img181.imageshack.us/img181/294/1213uk7.jpg
http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/2666/1415dr4.jpg
http://img181.imageshack.us/img181/3058/16jn7.jpg
http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/1672/17ju9.jpg
http://img181.imageshack.us/img181/2856/18qu7.jpg
http://img166.imageshack.us/img166/7067/19xg0.jpg
http://img165.imageshack.us/img165/7332/2021bh3.jpg
http://img295.imageshack.us/img295/2709/22xk7.jpg

Wrong book. My bad. Supergirl arc.

ultimatethor Senior Member
Originally posted by TricksterPriest
I''m not going to believe Surfer has anywhere near the reaction speed that Supes does when Superman can build a city with his bare hands in two panels. Surfer has no coordination feats on that level.

In marvel holiday special 96, surfer searches the entire 616 universe in at worst a few hours. We cant really determine the time but there was a party going on and SS left and came back while the party was still going on so....

darthgoober Senior Member

Originally posted by fangirl101
What the hell? a laser is a one time thing? a being fighting and moving at superspeed and changing tactics is just much different than a blast fired.

A one time thing? Well then it's a good thing that we have plenty of instances of Surfer dodging LOTS of blast simultaneously...

And anyway, Supes doesn't have that many tactics to use. His only real shot at winning comes from bring the fight up close and personal and the scans I showed proved that Surfer can react to Supes before it gets in close. If nothing else all he has to do is raise a force field or get in the first shot with a bullrush(since the CA scan concretely showed Surfer charging into combat in less than a microsecond and Surfer's bullrushing speed trumps Supes's).

Originally posted by fangirl101
Wrong book. My bad. Supergirl arc.

From what Trick just said there was no blitz...

fangirl101 Restricted

Originally posted by darthgoober
A one time thing? Well then it's a good thing that we have plenty of instances of Surfer dodging LOTS of blast simultaneously...

And anyway, Supes doesn't have that many tactics to use. His only real shot at winning comes from bring the fight up close and personal and the scans I showed proved that Surfer can react to Supes before it gets in close. If nothing else all he has to do is raise a force field or get in the first shot with a bullrush(since the CA scan concretely showed Surfer charging into combat in less than a microsecond and Surfer's bullrushing speed trumps Supes's).

From what Trick just said there was no blitz...


Yeah. Superman did blitz DS. Whom we all know has uber reaction times. The only thing was DS was really just too tuff for the blitz to mean anything. And lasers aren't a being. as I said, Surfer is an energy caster and wielder. He can sense lasers. he doesn't have to "react" to them. he can easily navigate thru a field of lasers. Superman on the other hand is faster than lasers and can think. A laser won't go around a shield or pummel it with thousands of planet cruching punches. A laser won't vibrate to bypass an energy barrier. All things superman can do at super speed. I've never seen surfer scan a being from another cosmos for a weakness in such a small time. Surfer only begins to beat superman with certainty after a few rounds with supers.

ultimatethor Senior Member

When has it evr even been mentioned that SS somehow uses his ability to " sense enrgy" to dodge light speed lasers? What kind of laughable statement is this. Nonsense. Also going round a shield? A few pages back i posted SS creating forcfields entirely around objects and beings. including himself. that is more nonsense. Further saying that superman can use thousands of planet crunching punches wont in no way helps his argument because there is no way in hell dat supes will get that many hits in before SS can attack himself. Further superman vibrating his molecules would hardly be a bother for SS who has complete control pof his molecules and can do d exact same thing. Really supes has got nothing.