Superman vs Silver surfer

Originally posted by Naija boy
Proof that red sunlight is useless in daylight? The Ruin feat certainly doesnt prove that. Eradicator being amazed at DOS superman holding alot of energy really doesnt tell me much about how his energy cant be drained (especially when i can point to a statement by triumph which indicates otherwise). Surfers forcefields have kept out a mindless hulk and blocked attacks from Skrier (who is skyfather+) among other things. They arent gonna simply go down in one or two hits...and provide a very good added defense avenue.

Originally posted by Mindship
I think if we let loose with our imaginations, we can conjure up all kinds of scenarios which benefit either character. As I've posted many a time, a let-loose Surfer is beyond my imagination: he really would (or should) be the closest thing to a genuine Godlike hero. On the other hand, Superman really is unique among heroes: it is the essence of his character that he invariable defeat any opponent. IMO, that's the whole point of Superman: the modern, original incarnation of the Hero archetype.

So to simplify matters, to make for maximum excitement, and to be most fair (I hope), I approach these fights as if I were going to write the comic.

Case in point: the original 1981 fight between Superman and the Hulk (my 3rd favorite character). I thought it was handled beautifully: it is still may favorite crossover battle. After back-and-forth blows, Supes plants his feet, says he can't be moved if he don't wanna be moved, and the Hulk wails away against an unflinching Superman's chest. This wonderfully highlights the power of Big Blue. But then the narration says Hulk is getting stronger and stronger with every passing moment, to where Superman (pre-crisis!) has to block a punch. The "outcome of the strange duel is in doubt." This beautifully highlights the power of the Hulk.

This is how I'd approach a fight between Surfer and Superman. I'd want to do both of them justice.

That's why Surfer and Hulk are so interesting, Surfer for the sheer freedom with which you can assemble 'battle strategies' using his huge variety of feats and Hulk for the simple - bafflingly widely resented - ability to be "always stronger" and for his illogical 'talent's (indestructible purple pants included).

To me this 'fight' is about Surfer bringing a creative but legitimate set of 'tools' to the job and Superman trying to compete against them.

I think both approaches are legitimate, yours the less contentious and more welcoming of engagement, mine more annoying and somewhat disruptive, but (and here is the annoying part) quite reasonably arguable too.

In terms of the red sun radiation working in daylight, Surfer could actually turn the Sun Red.. Although that could be considered self BFR..

Originally posted by janus77
Your approach is a good one, and one that is realistic to comic sensibilities but, the way I see these conflicts on the Vs board is that they are free from market/respect considerations. They're less opportunities for us to imagine what the writers might do and more what these characters could do.

That's why Surfer and Hulk are so interesting, Surfer for the sheer freedom with which you can assemble 'battle strategies' using his huge variety of feats and Hulk for the simple - bafflingly widely resented - ability to be "always stronger" and for his illogical 'talent's (indestructible purple pants included).

To me this 'fight' is about Surfer bringing a creative but legitimate set of 'tools' to the job and Superman trying to compete against them.

I think both approaches are legitimate, yours the less contentious and more welcoming of engagement, mine more annoying and somewhat disruptive, but (and here is the annoying part) quite reasonably arguable too.

Originally posted by Mindship
Well said.

Originally posted by abhilegend
When superman went to 31st century sun boy was forced to turn earth's sun red turning superman powerless but as soon as sun was turned yellow, he was back at full power and koed a guy with the power of entire LOSH with one punch. Ruin used it inside as well, heck eradicator turned earth's sun red, beat superman to a pulp and tossed him in that red sun twice, result: zilch. Really, are we talking about the same guy who turned earth's sun red by his energy manipulation and superman was so weak that he would've died completely in a few hours by the lack of power and even in that state his body had enough power for eradicator to make a fully powered kryptonian body from stone. Triumph was given powers by an imp, superman is vulnerable to imp created powers and constructs as shown in Man of steel 75 when mxy created a magical version of doomsday and superman blue (who had manipulated magic before IIRC) was stated as highly vulnerable to his blows. GLs have the best shields in herald category maybe bar quasar and superman has koed an elite gl john stewart with one punch and as I said previously killed a class 100 character able to go toe to tod with black adam and superman both with one all out punch and oneshotted darkseid's shielding in FC. That's good and all but thor has broken through them before and I don't see it faring any better against superman.

Superman has had mixed history with red sun radiation. Off the top of my head ever since the eradicator incident, it has proved quite detrimental to him on at least 3 occasions that i can remember, Twice with Faust, (the one during Crisis of Consscience happened to be outside and in the day time), and once with Amazo in a JLA issue. He also was heavily affected when under a red sun in War of the Supermen. Consequently to present superman as being virtually immune to red sun radiation is entirely disengenuous.

Furthermore you still have provided no cogent reason for the ineffectiveness of direct energy draining. I cant remember it being mentioned that Triumphs attack would only work because he was 5-d powered. In order for such an inference to be even close to tenable you would have to demonstrate that Supes is immune to such draining in the first place which you have failed to do so. Then Dr Polaris did similar albeit in a slower manner. Additionally Superman having alot of energy in his body in no way negates the possibility of draining as Surfer has drained both Hulk ( who has loads of energy as well) and even Scar of the Old power (an energy source that could satiate Galactus for a 100,000 years) nigh instantly.

Gls have good shields yes but so does Surfer and quite frankly i am not sure of the incident you are talking about but i suspect the incident involved one of those latent shields that serve as outlines around their bodies as opposed to a high level shield with lots of willpower backing it. Superman im sure has extremely good striking power feats like you have mentioned but Surfer also has great displays of his shield strength such as against Skrier,Mindless Hulk, Blood and Thunder Thor with the power Gem, etc. The Shield that Thor broke through was not one of personal protection and was merely encasing mjolnir and was from Surfers depowered earth period.(when he was also written considerably weaker).It is thus not at all typical of Surfers shield strength. This isnt to say that they are unbreakable but that all things considered they certainly provide a potent and added defensive avenue in addition to his range and own personal durability.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Superman wins 10/10. Superman at the best of his powers would ktfo surfer, kal just sings and removes surfer from existence!ermm

surfer is built to take down superman, to say supes can take a few is alright but to say he wins all is flat out fanboyism.

Originally posted by zeel
surfer is built to take down superman, to say supes can take a few is alright but to say he wins all is flat out fanboyism.

He was joking and messing around with someone who said Surfer wins 10/10. He admitted countless times that Surfer wins a majority.

Originally posted by janus77
Your approach is a good one, and one that is realistic to comic sensibilities but, the way I see these conflicts on the Vs board is that they are free from market/respect considerations. They're less opportunities for us to imagine what the writers might do and more what these characters could do.

That's why Surfer and Hulk are so interesting, Surfer for the sheer freedom with which you can assemble 'battle strategies' using his huge variety of feats and Hulk for the simple - bafflingly widely resented - ability to be "always stronger" and for his illogical 'talent's (indestructible purple pants included).

To me this 'fight' is about Surfer bringing a creative but legitimate set of 'tools' to the job and Superman trying to compete against them.

I think both approaches are legitimate, yours the less contentious and more welcoming of engagement, mine more annoying and somewhat disruptive, but (and here is the annoying part) quite reasonably arguable too.

Not seeing the energy drain trick being that effective

Originally posted by janus77
Your approach is a good one, and one that is realistic to comic sensibilities but, the way I see these conflicts on the Vs board is that they are free from market/respect considerations. They're less opportunities for us to imagine what the writers might do and more what these characters could do.

That's why Surfer and Hulk are so interesting, Surfer for the sheer freedom with which you can assemble 'battle strategies' using his huge variety of feats and Hulk for the simple - bafflingly widely resented - ability to be "always stronger" and for his illogical 'talent's (indestructible purple pants included).

To me this 'fight' is about Surfer bringing a creative but legitimate set of 'tools' to the job and Superman trying to compete against them.

I think both approaches are legitimate, yours the less contentious and more welcoming of engagement, mine more annoying and somewhat disruptive, but (and here is the annoying part) quite reasonably arguable too.

...What you just described is what we use tourneys for, not the VS forum.

Originally posted by Naija boy
Superman has had mixed history with red sun radiation. Off the top of my head ever since the eradicator incident, it has proved quite detrimental to him on at least 3 occasions that i can remember, Twice with Faust, (the one during Crisis of Consscience happened to be outside and in the day time), and once with Amazo in a JLA issue. He also was heavily affected when under a red sun in War of the Supermen. Consequently to present superman as being virtually immune to red sun radiation is entirely disengenuous.

Both of incidents with faust happened indoor like here

http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/Superman/jlaannual0229.jpg

and here

http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/Superman/Untitled-Scanned-21.jpg

Amazo incident happened indoor too. You forgot when he took the red sun light from a sun-eater and took the blast equivalent to 52 supernovas.

This is what happens when red sun light attack happens in broad daylight

http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/Superman/AC863-006.jpg
http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/Superman/AC863-007.jpg
http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/Superman/AC863-008.jpg
http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/Superman/AC863-009.jpg

I doubt that surfer can or would produce a red sun to fight someone.

Furthermore you still have provided no cogent reason for the ineffectiveness of direct energy draining. I cant remember it being mentioned that Triumphs attack would only work because he was 5-d powered. In order for such an inference to be even close to tenable you would have to demonstrate that Supes is immune to such draining in the first place which you have failed to do so. Then Dr Polaris did similar albeit in a slower manner. Additionally Superman having alot of energy in his body in no way negates the possibility of draining as Surfer has drained both Hulk ( who has loads of energy as well) and even Scar of the Old power (an energy source that could satiate Galactus for a 100,000 years) nigh instantly.

Perhaps you didn't understand my point, superman's soulless, dying body resisted a top tier energy manipulator so much that he was unable to directly siphon the energy from his body again and had to resort to machines for doing that

http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/Superman/Return-of-Superman-025.jpg

Major force and blackstarr tried to do the same and failed to do that. That's nice and all but superman singed out a multiversal entity and provided energy for a machine that rewrote multiverse. He just absorbs the energy back as soon as he gains daylight.

Gls have good shields yes but so does Surfer and quite frankly i am not sure of the incident you are talking about but i suspect the incident involved one of those latent shields that serve as outlines around their bodies as opposed to a high level shield with lots of willpower backing it. Superman im sure has extremely good striking power feats like you have mentioned but Surfer also has great displays of his shield strength such as against Skrier,Mindless Hulk, Blood and Thunder Thor with the power Gem, etc. The Shield that Thor broke through was not one of personal protection and was merely encasing mjolnir and was from Surfers depowered earth period.(when he was also written considerably weaker).It is thus not at all typical of Surfers shield strength. This isnt to say that they are unbreakable but that all things considered they certainly provide a potent and added defensive avenue in addition to his range and own personal durability.

You should read on gls. John stewart's autoshields have protected him from a supernova while he was unconscious. Kal has also braek through Epoch the time lord's force fields which was described as unbreakable by a black hole and contained superman 1 million IIRC. I don't see surfer's force-fields faring much better than anyone else.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Both of incidents with faust happened indoor like here

http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/Superman/jlaannual0229.jpg

and here

http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/Superman/Untitled-Scanned-21.jpg

Amazo incident happened indoor too. You forgot when he took the red sun light from a sun-eater and took the blast equivalent to 52 supernovas.

This is what happens when red sun light attack happens in broad daylight

http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/Superman/AC863-006.jpg
http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/Superman/AC863-007.jpg
http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/Superman/AC863-008.jpg
http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/Superman/AC863-009.jpg

I doubt that surfer can or would produce a red sun to fight someone.

The second incident with Faust started outside outside as Faust blasted him while they were both outside through a wall which is what initially downed him. Furthermore i know he will reabsorb sunlight and be able to repower himself but im not claiming its going to be a one shot kill. It is however clear that red sun radiation is more effective than conventional attacks against superman seeing as it bypasses his durability. Hence a prolonged red sun radiation attack would be highly useful as it would constantly put him on the defensive as all things considered red sun attacks do hurt him greatly (even though he has good recovery time).

Perhaps you didn't understand my point, superman's soulless, dying body resisted a top tier energy manipulator so much that he was unable to directly siphon the energy from his body again and had to resort to machines for doing that

Please show the following scan of what was going on there because all that is shown there is eradicator being overwhelmed by the volume of power within Supermans body and it seems with his body being unable to handle it.That in and of itself means that he was able to access the energy and is more detrimental than beneficial to your case. It does not display anything contrary to the Dr light and Triumph incidents nor show any kind of immunity to energy drainage. So post complete scene which will give a clear portrayal of what exactly happened in that incident. From what i remember that was from the Reign of superman arc where eradicator was immaterial and looking to draw the Solar energy into himself (which isnt what surfer will be doing) but failed as his body couldnt handle it. Not at all analogous to this situation.

Furthermore please post the Major force and Black Star incidents because i quite frankly do not trust your characterization of these occurrences. Additionally superman singing out a multiversal entity is highly irrelevant as is his providing energy for the miracle machine unless you can show a proportional relationship with the amount of energy provided and the amount of work done by the machine. Conversely the reason i mentioned the Skaar and Hulk incidents were to display Surfers skill in draining and manipulating large amounts of energy...not to just mention feats for the sake of it

You should read on gls. John stewart's autoshields have protected him from a supernova while he was unconscious. Kal has also braek through Epoch the time lord's force fields which was described as unbreakable by a black hole and contained superman 1 million IIRC. I don't see surfer's force-fields faring much better than anyone else.

Once again please post the scene you are referring to as if it is indeed the residual shielding then my point stands. I have followed post crisis Gl comics quite extensively and GLs residual shielding which surrounds them is certainly not at the same level as those which they put considerable will power into formulating. Their residual shielding has been broken through numerous times and when taking into account consistent portryals is not the all be end all shielding you are attempting to portray it as. Taking the average of surfers shield strength, they have been shown to reasonably resist damage output on the level of superman and thus they will not be oneshotted or simply torn through easily at all. For that matter i am quite sure that you would not argue in a forum battle that superman would simply one shot or tear apart a purposefully erected GL shield from a top tier GL. When taking the feats of both parties into account therefore it is reasonable to assume that Surfers shields will hold temporarilly (and obviously go down if supes is just allowed to wail on them). Temporarily however is all Surfer needs for them to be a good added avenue of defence.

Silver Surfer just drains Superman. The End.

IMO I don't think it would be easy draining Superman since Superman isn't just going to let him (assuming he even can drain Superman).

Also, Surfer rarely fights that way.

Again, Superman will win at least 3 of these fights due the the way Surfer usually fights.

Superman's resistant to draining. But Surfer can definitely drain him. How effectively and efficiently is what should be debated, not whether or not he can't.

Originally posted by lilshogun
Silver Surfer just drains Superman. The End.

Originally posted by Naija boy
The second incident with Faust started outside outside as Faust blasted him while they were both outside through a wall which is what initially downed him. Furthermore i know he will reabsorb sunlight and be able to repower himself but im not claiming its going to be a one shot kill. It is however clear that red sun radiation is more effective than conventional attacks against superman seeing as it bypasses his durability. Hence a prolonged red sun radiation attack would be highly useful as it would constantly put him on the defensive as all things considered red sun attacks do hurt him greatly (even though he has good recovery time).

Yeah, he cheapshotted him from behind with red sun light which immediately sent him inside the building. Last time I checked indoor means inside of a building or something like that. Its not going to be the match decider as this fight isn't going to be fought inside a building or is it? It was also unclear how much energy faust was using on superman and superman was taken by surprise. He also has some great showings against red sun-light and its not like surfer's going to just start the fight by shooting red sun light at kal, that's not in his character.

Please show the following scan of what was going on there because all that is shown there is eradicator being overwhelmed by the volume of power within Supermans body and it seems with his body being unable to handle it.That in and of itself means that he was able to access the energy and is more detrimental than beneficial to your case. It does not display anything contrary to the Dr light and Triumph incidents nor show any kind of immunity to energy drainage. So post complete scene which will give a clear portrayal of what exactly happened in that incident. From what i remember that was from the Reign of superman arc where eradicator was immaterial and looking to draw the Solar energy into himself (which isnt what surfer will be doing) but failed as his body couldnt handle it. Not at all analogous to this situation.

You are not understanding my point, at that time superman's body was buried for a long time and his soul was captured by blaze. It was said that he would've died if his body hadn't been taken to the fortress by eradicator. That was the complete scene of him trying to drain superman's body and failing to do that, the next we see him is in the FOS where he states that he couldn't directly siphon his energies and had to absorb it through machines. Oh that wasn't my point at all, my point was that a soulless, dying body can't be fully drained by a top-tier energy manipulator, it's just speculation that surfer could drain him while he is actively resisting. As for triumph, as I said superman has been very weak to IMP created powers and constructs throughout his post-crisis history and in an arc where it was specifically stated that he is weak to magic, its not up to me to prove that IMP magic didn't play a part . I don't have to prove a negative. As for polaris, he didn't drain superman he just bent light away from him making him blind

http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/Superman/AC827SUPERMANVSMAGNETICDRAIN2.jpg
http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/Superman/AC827SUPERMANVSMAGNETICDRAIN4.jpg

When his alternate personality said attacked him again saying "no more solar vitamin shakes for you" it was again him bending light away from superman not draining him as superman confirms it

http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/Superman/AC827SUPERMANVSMAGNETICDRAIN4.jpg
http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/Superman/ActionComics828page04.jpg

Has surfer done something like that, bending light away from someone?

Furthermore please post the Major force and Black Star incidents because i quite frankly do not trust your characterization of these occurrences.

With major force

http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/Superman/Supermanv2185VSMAJORFORCE3.jpg
http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/Superman/Supermanv2185VSMAJORFORCE4.jpg
http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/Superman/Supermanv2185VSMAJORFORCE5.jpg
http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/Superman/Supermanv2185VSMAJORFORCE6.jpg
http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/Superman/Supermanv2185VSMAJORFORCE7.jpg

With blackstarr
http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/Superman/AC850VSBLACKSTAR.jpg
http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/Superman/AC850VSBLACKSTAR2.jpg
http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/Superman/AC850VSBLACKSTAR3.jpg

Notice how she had to attack his brain neurons after trying to siphon his solar energy.

Additionally superman singing out a multiversal entity is highly irrelevant as is his providing energy for the miracle machine unless you can show a proportional relationship with the amount of energy provided and the amount of work done by the machine. Conversely the reason i mentioned the Skaar and Hulk incidents were to display Surfers skill in draining and manipulating large amounts of energy...not to just mention feats for the sake of it

Not really, its common physics that to cancel out a energy wave you have to create an exact equal of that wave at the opposite frequency of it otherwise the stronger wave would just override the weaker wave. In this case superman produced a harmonic wave so powerful that he canceled out a physical being so big that it was dragging entire multiverse with it. The last time miracle machine was used, it had to be powered by entire suns against time-trapper IIRC. You weren't implying about his skills at energy manipulation, otherwise you wouldn't emphasis upon old-power enough to satiate galactus for 1000 years. Hulk has been drained by other characters like titannus and his gamma energies are not comparable to superman's stored bio-energy.

Once again please post the scene you are referring to as if it is indeed the residual shielding then my point stands. I have followed post crisis Gl comics quite extensively and GLs residual shielding which surrounds them is certainly not at the same level as those which they put considerable will power into formulating. Their residual shielding has been broken through numerous times and when taking into account consistent portryals is not the all be end all shielding you are attempting to portray it as. Taking the average of surfers shield strength, they have been shown to reasonably resist damage output on the level of superman and thus they will not be oneshotted or simply torn through easily at all. For that matter i am quite sure that you would not argue in a forum battle that superman would simply one shot or tear apart a purposefully erected GL shield from a top tier GL. When taking the feats of both parties into account therefore it is reasonable to assume that Surfers shields will hold temporarilly (and obviously go down if supes is just allowed to wail on them). Temporarily however is all Surfer needs for them to be a good added avenue of defence.

You are assuming that their auto-shields are much weaker than their other shields, when that's not the case. Anyway I wasn't arguing that point

http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/Superman/supesjohnshield2.jpg

Breaks through Uncle Sam's constructs and kills him with one shot

http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/Superman/012-SupermanBatman015Rembrandt-DCP.jpg
http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/Superman/014-SupermanBatman015Rembrandt-DCP.jpg

He breaks through epoch's force-field by his HV

http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/Superman/SupermanBatman008.jpg
http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/Superman/SupermanBatman015.jpg
http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/Superman/SupermanBatman014.jpg

How powerful john's shields are

http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/Superman/mmstewardowning.jpg

http://img19.photobucket.com/albums/v58/Desaad/Hal%20Jordan/Cosmic_Odyssey_TPB_097.jpg
http://img19.photobucket.com/albums/v58/Desaad/Hal%20Jordan/Cosmic_Odyssey_TPB_098.jpg

Cite some low feats fot gl shields, while you are at it. Personally I don't see surfer's shields taking more than one or two all out superman punches.srug

Remember though what gives Surfer a decent chance here is not only can he attempt to drain Supes, but (once he realises the Yellow Sun being the source of Supes powers) he can transmute the Sun into a Red Star, making his draining of Supes much more deadly.

But just not sure if that counts as Prep time, or Self BFR.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Remember though what gives Surfer a decent chance here is not only can he attempt to drain Supes, but (once he realises the Yellow Sun being the source of Supes powers) he can transmute the Sun into a Red Star, making his draining of Supes much more deadly.

But just not sure if that counts as Prep time, or Self BFR.

^ Not sure he's ever needed to do that, but its certainly within his transmutation power set to do so.