Originally posted by Bransolute
So... unless you made it for the upcoming tourney...
I was actually going to challenge someone using Machine Man and not have my respect thread done so they would have had no idea what to expect. However, I doubt I will have much time for another battle any time soon so that's why I finished it.
I'm not reading through all of this and I really don't have the interest in this stuff that I used to but here's my two cents:
1. Darkseid in Superman Confidential is clearly shown to be way more powerful. Superman stated he would be CRAZY to fight DS.
2. Darkseid does regard Superman as a physical equal in DOTNG#2, but Orion and Superman are also stated as equals. It's obvious that the Superman Confidential writer simply has a different opinion. You can't reconcile the two showings. Even BEFORE the powerup, when Superman fought Orion under Byrne, they were fairly evenly matched. Orion hasn't had a powerup since then. So in Superman Confidential #8, that is Darkseid treating an Orion-level powerhouse like an insect.
It's obvious that the two writers are simply portraying Darkseid at different levels. The Superman Confidential level writer feels that DS can smack top tiers around like babies, while Starlin is portraying him on the same level as top tiers physically. Also note that Darkseid recently one-shotted Orion and Firestorm at the same time, and here we have Orion stalemating Superman again.
3. If you look at recent fights, Darkseid pretty much handled Superman in S/B#12-13 before WW interfered. From WW's reaction it looks like she thought there was a good chance DS would have killed Superman if she hadn't interfered. Superman does get the win after he's amped and DS is hit by his blast in the face, so I won't suggest that Darkseid was WAY above Superman in this showing, but he clearly had Superman well in hand before the interference IMO.
Later in S/B, Supergirl states that she and Bizarro combined wouldn't be able to handle Darkseid unless they had more help. Also once he's freed, Darkseid one-shots Superman to imprison him on the Wall. And Darkseid takes Supergirl's punch to no effect, then precedes to ignore her as he strolls away.
I think what we have here is a mixed bag. In Firestorm and Superman Confidential, Darkseid treats Superman and Orion like bugs. In DOTNG, apparently he's on the same level as they are physically although he may have the edge in power. Comic power levels are subject to the whim of writers. There's really no reason to try to make these different portrayals compatible.
IMO between Superman Confidential, Firestorm, and his encounter with Eclipso, Darkseid's had enough recent portrayals as WAY above top tier to balance out the comment he made in DOTNG.
Originally posted by Jimmy-ChanUhm in superman confidential that was their first meeting. Superman didnt know who the hell he was. No one is disputing that Darkseid USED to be above superman here. But times have changed. I mean look at the fights they have had in the past five years or so. Much closer and superman doesnt go down as he did in their first encounter to a mere ***** slap anymore.
I'm not reading through all of this and I really don't have the interest in this stuff that I used to but here's my two cents:1. Darkseid in Superman Confidential is clearly shown to be way more powerful. Superman stated he would be CRAZY to fight DS.
2. Darkseid does regard Superman as a physical equal in DOTNG#2, but Orion and Superman are also stated as equals. It's obvious that the Superman Confidential writer simply has a different opinion. You can't reconcile the two showings. Even BEFORE the powerup, when Superman fought Orion under Byrne, they were fairly evenly matched. Orion hasn't had a powerup since then. So in Superman Confidential #8, that is Darkseid treating an Orion-level powerhouse like an insect.
It's obvious that the two writers are simply portraying Darkseid at different levels. The Superman Confidential level writer feels that DS can smack top tiers around like babies, while Starlin is portraying him on the same level as top tiers physically. Also note that Darkseid recently one-shotted Orion and Firestorm at the same time, and here we have Orion stalemating Superman again.
3. If you look at recent fights, Darkseid pretty much handled Superman in S/B#12-13 before WW interfered. From WW's reaction it looks like she thought there was a good chance DS would have killed Superman if she hadn't interfered. Superman does get the win after he's amped and DS is hit by his blast in the face, so I won't suggest that Darkseid was WAY above Superman in this showing, but he clearly had Superman well in hand before the interference IMO.
Later in S/B, Supergirl states that she and Bizarro combined wouldn't be able to handle Darkseid unless they had more help. Also once he's freed, Darkseid one-shots Superman to imprison him on the Wall. And Darkseid takes Supergirl's punch to no effect, then precedes to ignore her as he strolls away.
I think what we have here is a mixed bag. In Firestorm and Superman Confidential, Darkseid treats Superman and Orion like bugs. In DOTNG, apparently he's on the same level as they are physically although he may have the edge in power. Comic power levels are subject to the whim of writers. There's really no reason to try to make these different portrayals compatible.
IMO between Superman Confidential, Firestorm, and his encounter with Eclipso, Darkseid's had enough recent portrayals as WAY above top tier to balance out the comment he made in DOTNG.
Darkseid has always handled Orion much more easily than his bouts with the man of steel. Orion has never had him cry out for mercy has he now? He has always manipulated and toyed with his son. He doesnt toy with superman anymore thats for sure.
In batman/superman12-13 darkseid wasnt handling superman as you describe. The fight was even steven. Darkseid started off the fight with a cheapshot from the barn. He was hiding there waiting for his moment to strike.
When Darkseid sent superman into the sourcewall first thing was superman saved his ass from the wall. Second thing is that in the middle of a conversation darkseid cheapshotted him into the sourcewall. If they were anywhere else superman would have recovered and the fight would have been on but he happened to be right next to the source wall.
Just wanted to clear a few things up.
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Originally posted by Barbarian ShamsWell I read the comics and he leaves stuff out and interprets things differently than me. I mean Darkseid has tried to omega superman how many times but he keeps getting it shot right back into his face. He does try to kill supes but fails over and over again.
I disagree with anyone who dismisses Jimmy-Chan that easily. He obviously is a real expert on the New Gods and DS in particular. Honestly, if DS didn't hold back and use all of his powers, then Supes would've been dead years ago, but DS has his reasons for not killing him right on the spot.
Originally posted by quanchi112
Uhm in superman confidential that was their first meeting. Superman didnt know who the hell he was. No one is disputing that Darkseid USED to be above superman here. But times have changed. I mean look at the fights they have had in the past five years or so. Much closer and superman doesnt go down as he did in their first encounter to a mere ***** slap anymore.
None of what you said really has anything to do with the points I made. Superman back then was ABOVE Wonder Woman and on the SAME level as Orion. He is STILL presented as an even match for Orion and a level above WW to this day. He hasn't gotten massively more powerful. He's gottten maybe 10% more powerful since then.
Point blank, Superman at the time was a high end class 100 and Darkseid smacked him down like a nuisance. That's really not far off from the way Darkseid treated him in Superman/Batman#13 until WW interfered.
Darkseid has always handled Orion much more easily than his bouts with the man of steel. Orion has never had him cry out for mercy has he now? He has always manipulated and toyed with his son.
Orion did pretty well against Darkseid in Orion#5. Darkseid handled Superman easily in Adv.#495, OWAW in the first and second encounters, and in S/B before WW's interference.
He doesnt toy with superman anymore thats for sure.
In batman/superman12-13 darkseid wasnt handling superman as you describe. The fight was even steven. Darkseid started off the fight with a cheapshot from the barn. He was hiding there waiting for his moment to strike.
How was it even?
Darkseid sucker-punches Superman and Supes is at his mercy, then Supergirl risks her life to save him.
Superman sucker-punches Darkseid AND follows it up with a super-speed bullrush. Notice Darkseid is NOT at Superman's mercy like Superman was at his. In fact, Darkseid is able to recover in what appears to be less than a second judging by the distance they covered. He then stops Superman in mid-air with a nonchalant backhad. He barely appears to be putting any effort into the strike. Then he announces he's going to kill Superman and Wonder Woman risks her life to protect Kal from the blast, yelling "NO!"
I don't see how it's even. Darkseid suckers Superman ... Superman is at his mercy. Superman suckers Darkseid ... A few seconds later he's at Darkseid's mercy again. Looking at all the context clues and using Reading Comprehension 101, I think the message was clearly that Superman was screwed if he fought a 100% Darkseid on Earth.
When Darkseid sent superman into the sourcewall first thing was superman saved his ass from the wall. Second thing is that in the middle of a conversation darkseid cheapshotted him into the sourcewall. If they were anywhere else superman would have recovered and the fight would have been on but he happened to be right next to the source wall.
I don't consider it a sucker-punch. Darkseid announced that he was about to "repay" Superman right before he did it. Not only that, but Superman responded to this comment by saying that DS was wasting his time thinking of ways to repay him. I guess you could claim Superman thought he was talking about giving him a prize or something instead of attacking him, but that's not consistent with the way Darkseid is reaching his right hand towards Superman as he says it.
As for what you said, Superman was stated to have been unconscious while he was on the Source Wall. By constrast, Darkseid stated that he was consciously plotting revenge while on the Source Wall. So either the Source Wall renders people unconscious and Darkseid was immune while Superman wasn't or Darkseid's punch itself KOed Superman. Either interpretation is a plus for Darkseid's case.
Originally posted by Jimmy-ChanSo Orion doing well against darkseid in orion five is all you have. Superman stalemted him once,defeated him with ww help, and outright crushed him in apokolips now. But yet orion had an ok showing in orion 5.
None of what you said really has anything to do with the points I made. Superman back then was ABOVE Wonder Woman and on the SAME level as Orion. He is STILL presented as an even match for Orion and a level above WW to this day. He hasn't gotten massively more powerful. He's gottten maybe 10% more powerful since then.Point blank, Superman at the time was a high end class 100 and Darkseid smacked him down like a nuisance. That's really not far off from the way Darkseid treated him in Superman/Batman#13 until WW interfered.
Orion did pretty well against Darkseid in Orion#5. Darkseid handled Superman easily in Adv.#495, OWAW in the first and second encounters, and in S/B before WW's interference.
How was it even?
Darkseid sucker-punches Superman and Supes is at his mercy, then Supergirl risks her life to save him.
Superman sucker-punches Darkseid AND follows it up with a super-speed bullrush. Notice Darkseid is NOT at Superman's mercy like Superman was at his. In fact, Darkseid is able to recover in what appears to be less than a second judging by the distance they covered. He then stops Superman in mid-air with a nonchalant backhad. He barely appears to be putting any effort into the strike. Then he announces he's going to kill Superman and Wonder Woman risks her life to protect Kal from the blast, yelling "NO!"
I don't see how it's even. Darkseid suckers Superman ... Superman is at his mercy. Superman suckers Darkseid ... A few seconds later he's at Darkseid's mercy again. Looking at all the context clues and using Reading Comprehension 101, I think the message was clearly that Superman was screwed if he fought a 100% Darkseid on Earth.
I don't consider it a sucker-punch. Darkseid announced that he was about to "repay" Superman right before he did it. Not only that, but Superman [B]responded
to this comment by saying that DS was wasting his time thinking of ways to repay him. I guess you could claim Superman thought he was talking about giving him a prize or something instead of attacking him, but that's not consistent with the way Darkseid is reaching his right hand towards Superman as he says it.As for what you said, Superman was stated to have been unconscious while he was on the Source Wall. By constrast, Darkseid stated that he was consciously plotting revenge while on the Source Wall. So either the Source Wall renders people unconscious and Darkseid was immune while Superman wasn't or Darkseid's punch itself KOed Superman. Either interpretation is a plus for Darkseid's case. [/B]
Ok lets go over some elements of the superman/batman darkseid battle. Ok for one supergirl didnt die so the omega really did nothing now did it? For two darkseid is just leaving even though he came to kill superman but since it missed his target hes decided to call it a day. Superman again begins to fight him to which out of nowhere ww comes to deflect Darkseids only chance to win this fight the omega effect. Superman throws ww out and then takes darkseid to the sun. Darkseid was powerless to resist him. Superman then beat the utter shit out of him and then dispathced of him after the battle.
The reason Darkseid in the superman confidential issue doesnt cut it anymore is all it took was a backhand to dismiss supes when we know it takes a helluva lot more for darkseid to defeat superman. Read apkolips now if you want a one on one encounter with no one interfering and then get back to me after you see darkseid beg for quarter.
I cant believe you dont see that darkseid punch after SUPERMAN FREES HIM FROM THE SOURCEWALL. I mean superman wasnt fighting him was he he just rescued him.
Originally posted by quanchi112
So Orion doing well against darkseid in orion five is all you have. Superman stalemted him once,defeated him with ww help, and outright crushed him in apokolips now. But yet orion had an ok showing in orion 5.
Orion gained the advantage against Darkseid in pure HTH in Orion 5 without Darkseid being hit by his own beams beforehand.
As for Superman's "stalemate" with Darkseid, it was a brief interrupted fight. The only thing extraordinary was that Darkseid's energy blasts were jobbed in that fight ... Not just against Superman, but they also bounced off of Grayven of all people. I think that's because he'd spent them in the Imperiex blast. The actual HTH portion of that fight was very brief ... They lock up, Darkseid overpowers Superman and takes control, choking him, Superman gives a speech about not letting people like Darkseid rule others and frees himself with an uppercut that knocks Darkseid's head back.
As far as I know, Orion's never been physically throttled as badly by Darkseid as Superman was in the first OWAW fight. He was kind of handled in Legion: Foundations, but he wasn't beaten into submission like Superman was.
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Ok lets go over some elements of the superman/batman darkseid battle. Ok for one supergirl didnt die so the omega really did nothing now did it?
She was teleported away to prevent her from dying, so I don't see how that's relevent. She stated she was scared to death. No one in the issue thought it was strange that a Kryptonian could be killed by the beams. In fact WW risked her life to prevent them from hitting Superman.
[For two darkseid is just leaving even though he came to kill superman but since it missed his target hes decided to call it a day. Superman again begins to fight him
You mean Superman sucker punches him ....
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to which out of nowhere ww comes to deflect Darkseids only chance to win this fight the omega effect. Superman throws ww out and then takes darkseid to the sun. Darkseid was powerless to resist him. Superman then beat the utter shit out of him and then dispathced of him after the battle.
Um, what do you mean Darkseid's only chance to win? The reason WW had to jump in was because Superman was too stunned to move out of the way. He was stunned by a nonchalant backhand by Darkseid. If a blow that casual left Superman too stunned to defend himself for the time being, common sense says that a few shots with correct form (putting effort into the punches) could KO Superman.
I think Darkseid used the Omegas not because they were his "only chance to win" but because he wanted to KILL Superman, not KO him.
I don't deny that Darkseid looked like crap AFTER he got hit with a blast intended to kill Superman and after Kal was amped. I'm talking about beforehand. I've conceded before that Darkseid wasn't that far above top tiers physically here. It was a significant difference though. Not only was Superman clearly putting a lot more effort into his attack than Darkseid, but Darkseid's counter attack did more damage.
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The reason Darkseid in the superman confidential issue doesnt cut it anymore is all it took was a backhand to dismiss supes when we know it takes a helluva lot more for darkseid to defeat superman. Read apkolips now if you want a one on one encounter with no one interfering and then get back to me after you see darkseid beg for quarter.
It's two different writers with two different stories. You can't say one doesn't count because of the other. Otherwise I could say Apokolips Now doesn't count since Darkseid was just portrayed as dwarfing Orion in power while Superman was portrayed as his equal.
Superman at his original power level was stated to be stronger than Wonder Woman by her own admission. He was portrayed as a peer to Orion back then, just like he is now. Superman is only marginally more powerful now than he was back then. You try to make it sound like Superman was class 50 or something back then. He was easily a class 100 powerhouse at the time and Darkseid treated him like a baby.
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I cant believe you dont see that darkseid punch after SUPERMAN FREES HIM FROM THE SOURCEWALL. I mean superman wasnt fighting him was he he just rescued him. [/B]
Yes, he just rescued him ... Then they talked for several panels, Darkseid threatens Superman, Superman responds to the threat, and Superman gets punched into the Source Wall.
Seriously, I've seen people use Action Comics#814 as evidence for Superman's case. If that is used as evidence there's no reason S/B#24 can't be used for Darkseid.
Originally posted by Jimmy-ChanBottom line is this we could argue all day over the issues in question. You cant argue with this and it has been stated recently. Superman is Darkseids physical rival whereas he didnt used to be as superman confidential shows us. So things have changed.
Orion gained the advantage against Darkseid in pure HTH in Orion 5 without Darkseid being hit by his own beams beforehand.As for Superman's "stalemate" with Darkseid, it was a brief interrupted fight. The only thing extraordinary was that Darkseid's energy blasts were jobbed in that fight ... Not just against Superman, but they also bounced off of Grayven of all people. I think that's because he'd spent them in the Imperiex blast. The actual HTH portion of that fight was very brief ... They lock up, Darkseid overpowers Superman and takes control, choking him, Superman gives a speech about not letting people like Darkseid rule others and frees himself with an uppercut that knocks Darkseid's head back.
As far as I know, Orion's never been physically throttled as badly by Darkseid as Superman was in the first OWAW fight. He was kind of handled in Legion: Foundations, but he wasn't beaten into submission like Superman was.
She was teleported away to prevent her from dying, so I don't see how that's relevent. She stated she was scared to death. No one in the issue thought it was strange that a Kryptonian could be killed by the beams. In fact WW risked her life to prevent them from hitting Superman.
You mean Superman sucker punches him ....
Um, what do you mean Darkseid's only chance to win? The reason WW had to jump in was because Superman was too stunned to move out of the way. He was stunned by a nonchalant backhand by Darkseid. If a blow that casual left Superman too stunned to defend himself for the time being, common sense says that a few shots with correct form (putting effort into the punches) could KO Superman.
I think Darkseid used the Omegas not because they were his "only chance to win" but because he wanted to KILL Superman, not KO him.
I don't deny that Darkseid looked like crap AFTER he got hit with a blast intended to kill Superman and after Kal was amped. I'm talking about beforehand. I've conceded before that Darkseid wasn't that far above top tiers physically here. It was a significant difference though. Not only was Superman clearly putting a lot more effort into his attack than Darkseid, but Darkseid's counter attack did more damage.
It's two different writers with two different stories. You can't say one doesn't count because of the other. Otherwise I could say Apokolips Now doesn't count since Darkseid was just portrayed as dwarding Orion in power while Superman was portrayed as his equal.
Superman at his original power level was stated to be stronger than Wonder Woman by her own admission. He was portrayed as a peer to Orion back then, just like he is now. Superman is only marginally more powerful now than he was back then. You try to make it sound like Superman was class 50 or something back then. He was easily a class 100 powerhouse at the time and Darkseid treated him like a baby.
Yes, he just rescured him ... Then they talked for several panels, Darkseid threatens Superman, Superman responds to the threat, and Superman gets punched into the Source Wall.
Seriously, I've seen people use Action Comics#814 as evidence for Superman's case. If that is used as evidence there's no reason S/B#24 can't be used for Darkseid.
Also: why are you arguing that Superman's done better against Darkseid than Orion has? What does that have to do with anything, really? If anything it shows that comics are inconsistent, since Orion has consistently been a match for Superman. If anything, the way Orion matched an amped Superman in KOTW could give him the nod. It's not like Orion is the only being who Superman has consistently struggled with, yet who Darkseid has destroyed.
Do you just not respect New Gods in general?
Originally posted by Jimmy-ChanHey Jimmy, can you explain this bullshit? I thought I ask you, since your around.
Also: why are you arguing that Superman's done better against Darkseid than Orion has? What does that have to do with anything, really? If anything it shows that comics are inconsistent, since Orion has consistently been a match for Superman. If anything, the way Orion matched an amped Superman in KOTW could give him the nod. It's not like Orion is the only being who Superman has consistently struggled with, yet who Darkseid has destroyed.Do you just not respect New Gods in general?
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t469408.html
Was he depowered in that instance? That's what it looked like.
Originally posted by quanchi112
Bottom line is this we could argue all day over the issues in question. You cant argue with this and it has been stated recently. Superman is Darkseids physical rival whereas he didnt used to be as superman confidential shows us. So things have changed.
You would have a point if the comics were written by the same guy, but they weren't. In the comic where Darkseid considers Superman a rival, Superman is both shown and stated to be rivalled by Orion. If the two issues were consistent, that should mean that Orion is on par with Darkseid in physical power and he should be able to own Superman at his original power level just like Darkseid did. But we see that this is NOT the case, as Orion and Superman had a fairly even scuffle BEFORE Superman's powerup and Darkseid has repeatedly been portrayed as by far Orion's superior.
I could also point out other contradictory statements by Darkseid, for instance that his blast in S/B that only momentarily stunned him would have reduced Superman to less than ash. Or Supergirl's statement that her and Bizarro COMBINED aren't enough to take Darkseid on. Or Superman's statement in H/P, after the powerup, that he never thought it was possible to hurt Darkseid.
The statement in DOTNG puts Superman, Darkseid, and Orion all on the same level. Superman has always been on Orion's level, even before the powerup. Orion hasn't had any powerups. The statement in DOTNG doesn't show any upgrade in Superman's level -- he's still a peer to Orion. All it implies is that Starlin doesn't have a very high opinion of Darkseid's strength level compared to other writers.
Originally posted by Hazsekswthurmom
Hey Jimmy, can you explain this bullshit? I thought I ask you, since your around.http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t469408.html
Was he depowered in that instance? That's what it looked like.
Yes he was. And it's out of continuity I think. In the same story, Mr. Freeze empowered with a fraction of Darkseid's power is a threat to the JLA. Darkseid comes back, not at full power as "Janus" and one-shots Hercules, who was overpowering Wonder Woman. WW marvels at the depowered Darkseid's strength, saying something like it's almost "regal."
Darkseid was portrayed as a major powerhouse in that story, but he was also portrayed as incompetent. Kind of like Hunter/Prey in that regard.
Originally posted by Jimmy-ChanUhm no it doesnt. With regards to starlin hes the writer who is writing the death of the new gods which a pretty significant event for the new gods wouldnt you say? You keep saying and using different writers as an excuse. Starlin didnt write apokolips now did he? That writer felt that superman could just beat darkseids head in which he did. All these writers collectively decide whats canon and more than one writer has written superman defeating Darkseid while no writer has had Orion defeating Darkseid.
You would have a point if the comics were written by the same guy, but they weren't. In the comic where Darkseid considers Superman a rival, Superman is both shown and stated to be rivalled by Orion. If the two issues were consistent, that should mean that Orion is on par with Darkseid in physical power and he should be able to own Superman at his original power level just like Darkseid did. But we see that this is NOT the case, as Orion and Superman had a fairly even scuffle BEFORE Superman's powerup and Darkseid has repeatedly been portrayed as by far Orion's superior.I could also point out other contradictory statements by Darkseid, for instance that his blast in S/B that only momentarily stunned him would have reduced Superman to less than ash. Or Supergirl's statement that her and Bizarro COMBINED aren't enough to take Darkseid on. Or Superman's statement in H/P, after the powerup, that he never thought it was possible to hurt Darkseid.
The statement in DOTNG puts Superman, Darkseid, and Orion all on the same level. Superman has always been on Orion's level, even before the powerup. Orion hasn't had any powerups. The statement in DOTNG doesn't show any upgrade in Superman's level -- he's still a peer to Orion. All it implies is that Starlin doesn't have a very high opinion of Darkseid's strength level compared to other writers.
Originally posted by quanchi112
Uhm no it doesnt. With regards to starlin hes the writer who is writing the death of the new gods which a pretty significant event for the new gods wouldnt you say?
What's you point? He's not considered one of the definitive New Gods writers. I fail to see how a comment in his story overrules what actually went down elsewhere.
You keep saying and using different writers as an excuse. Starlin didnt write apokolips now did he? That writer felt that superman could just beat darkseids head in which he did.
I didn't say that Starlin is the only writer who has portrayed Darkseid as a physical top tier. Although so far Starlin himself has not portrayed such a thing. In fact in Cosmic Odyssey Darkseid easily knocked away a charging Superman and barely unfolded his arms to do so. He could think that Superman's speed makes up for a strength advantage on Darkseid's part. Or he could have just meant that Superman is in Darkseid's ballpark, similar to the comments of Wonder Woman rivalling Superman. We don't even know how Starlin sees them matching up until he has a drawn out fight between them.
The point is that you can't claim one feat doesn't count because you like another story better.
All these writers collectively decide whats canon and more than one writer has written superman defeating Darkseid while no writer has had Orion defeating Darkseid.
Superman has beaten Darkseid once without help. He's been owned by Darkseid a number of times. Judging by their direct encounters, Darkseid would beat Superman about 70% of the time. If we look at how they match up against common opponents, it becomes much different because almost all comparisons point to Darkseid dwarfing Superman (like in Hunter/Prey).
But again, Superman was matched by Orion and stated to be rivalled by him in the exact comic you're referencing. You're constradicting yourself. How can DOTNG#2 support your idea of Superman > Darkseid > Orion when Superman is both stated and shown to be virtually equalled by Orion in the same comic?