Akuma vs Leopold Goenitz

Started by Innominate__110 pages

Again with strength feats i suppose akuma's got more... Does it mean he'll win the fight? Being that goenitz can basically dematerialize and materialize somewhere else it wouldn't be too illogical to say his range is limited to a stage withing the game (no, there's no screenshots or vids of him doing it outside the game) and to say these are just assumptions still doesn't and or speculation that don't show any proof is just ignoring the fact that this character is powerful, stated in the story that he's the strongest of the 4th heavenly kings (yes a title to you) and also that he defeated rugal (a very strong and established fighter/drug trafficer who collected trophies of other strong fighters he already beat) in ONE blow (eye-gouging).. If that's not a feat at least it's a victory over a very young goenitz... Then later defeated kyo with ease... Again, why don't these merit as demonstrations of his power? It's similar to what akuma did in SF except i doubt he defeated ryu with ease, but if it's not in a screen shot or an ending that's canon (according to you), then you just dismiss it? when some of the ''on screen evidence'' you provided is faulty? Please... As far as the in game moves, i was explaining how they're more versatile.. And depending how they're used can counter pretty much any other move in game, but i don't like using gameplay to prove this im simply going by story and character bios and observation.. You just resort to in game moves which may or may not do much in this theoretical fight between (what i think are) to similar characters... And haha.. Facepalm..!! I apologized for that on the other thread... So, chill... Are u always this upset when debating akuma?? 😄

Originally posted by Innominate__1
Again with strength feats i suppose akuma's got more... Does it mean he'll win the fight?

It's not just that he has more, it's that he has BETTER feats, which I think is more important. the fact that Akuma has MULTIPLE better feats should tell you something.

Originally posted by Innominate__1
Being that goenitz can basically dematerialize and materialize somewhere else it wouldn't be too illogical to say his range is limited to a stage withing the game (no, there's no screenshots or vids of him doing it outside the game) and to say these are just assumptions still doesn't and or speculation that don't show any proof is just ignoring the fact that this character is powerful, stated in the story that he's the strongest of the 4th heavenly kings (yes a title to you) and also that he defeated rugal (a very strong and established fighter/drug trafficer who collected trophies of other strong fighters he already beat) in ONE blow (eye-gouging)..

You don't understand.... You have no lower OR upper limits of what the teleport's range is, so you baselessly claiming "unlimited" range is useless. What you think is true is not what is true in this instance. Here, let me shed another debating rule with you. "Without evidence, don't claim it".

The character may be defined as powerful, that does not justify the claims your making, and it certainly doesn't prove Goenitz wins against Akuma, and until you provide at least something concrete, that won't change. Being that Rugal cannot canonically defeat Akuma either, this is another example of A>B>C failing.

These are the facts as they have been established:

Fact #1: Akuma is physically stronger than Goenitz by several thousand times over. Evidence: Akuma crushing Gokentou, splitting Uluru, and leaping from the ocean floor to the ocean surface carrying a sunken cruise ship in a matter of seconds. Goenitz has no attack in his arsenal that comes anywhere near this level of destruction, even when relying on his aeromancy.

Fact #2: Akuma is more durable than Goenitz by several thousand times over. Evidence: Akuma being able to survive the force of his own attacks described above. Compounded by the fact that he resisted deep sea pressures that would crush most organic matter in an instant. Goenitz has not demonstrated any such durability.

Fact #3: Akuma has superior internal control of his body. Evidence: Anyone rising that fast through that much water would have exploded due to pressure change due to the benz. Akuma did not, and was unafected by rapidly changing external pressures, thus attacks like Goenitz vaccuming out his opponents blood and internal organs with his aeromancy would be utterly useless.

Fact #4: Akuma has greater energy generation and control than Goenitz does. Evidence: The Sekia Kuretsu Ha cratered a forest with a force near nuclear detonation with nothing but the recoil of this energy attack. This one move places Akuma's energy generation into low tier Darkstalkers/late Dragonball type area scale of energy manip.

Fact 5: Akuma has far superior martial skill compared to Goenitz, who has almost none to speak of. Akuma is well trained and experienced in the ansatsuken arts.

Originally posted by Innominate__1
If that's not a feat at least it's a victory over a very young goenitz... Then later defeated kyo with ease... Again, why don't these merit as demonstrations of his power? It's similar to what akuma did in SF except i doubt he defeated ryu with ease, but if it's not in a screen shot or an ending that's canon (according to you), then you just dismiss it? when some of the ''on screen evidence'' you provided is faulty?

Because the characters your listing, Akuma would defeat easily as well. That and character>character feats are wonky if you cannot explain how the fights happened. The one time Akuma fought Ryu canonically, he didn't fight seriously, since he was testing Ryu and not going for the kill like he normally does. He says this in Ryu's alpha 2 ending, where he then crushed the island... And no, it's not according to me... where you come up with your accusations I don't know, but stop it right now. I dismiss them, yes, because they are vague and open to interpretation... There is nothing definitive in your rebuttals.

Originally posted by Innominate__1
Please... As far as the in game moves, i was explaining how they're more versatile.. And depending how they're used can counter pretty much any other move in game, but i don't like using gameplay to prove this im simply going by story and character bios and observation.. You just resort to in game moves which may or may not do much in this theoretical fight between (what i think are) to similar characters... And haha.. Facepalm..!! I apologized for that on the other thread... So, chill... Are u always this upset when debating akuma?? 😄

you created a powerset for Goenitz based on theory and oppinion - a pwoerset that he does not posess, and thats all I have to prove. Goenitz has not once summoned F5 tornadoes, has not generated or withstood the amount of damage Akuma is going to be using, and lastly his greatest feat pales in comparison to the 4 that akuma has at least solidly demonstrated.

Now, instead of trying to divert attenion away from your failings by trying to provoke me, and making asenine claims about me, (upset? no, just frustrated that I have to provide the same proof about the same guy more than three times over now... Wouldn't you be?) why don't you get about to the buisness of proving your case?

Goenitz has no means whatsoever of winning this match, that simple. He can't even hurt Akuma going by feats.

As i keep saying yes.. Featwise akuma has more... And i would concede he'd win if it were more of a ''let's stand still and hit each other with our strongest attacks and see who wins'' type of fight but i somehow doubt either of these guys would stand still and let themselves get hit by the other... And when did i create this powerset? In terms of story goenitz is pretty much the 2nd strongest boss (under orochi)... The fact that he beat someone like rugal at a very young age in one hit should say something... (even if rugal isn't able to beat akuma i doubt akuma was that strong at said age) i state this to somehow get an idea of the difference in power these characters started off with... Like i said, i use story, context, logic... So logically he'd get stronger by the time kof'96 rolled around... (Which is the last we see of him) and going by his profile it states all of which ive posted previously (except when i use ''unknown ranges'' like in his translocating for example) and you're correct in that he's never created a f5 tornado before... But do you honestly have to see it before you believe someone with the power and control of wind currents can actually do it? It's in his profile btw, as well as in game the wind flowing about and the sky having that hole there... So like i said i see your point, if this were a physical fight akuma'd take it via he's more durable, martial prowess, blah blah, but powerful? Against wind? A hurricane(in his profile as well as that glimpse of his power in game)? Then im not so sure, even in his pro. it's stated he uses his powers to fight, same as orochi... @DSZ Aside from that, how am i diliberately provoking you? Is it cause i oppose you or don't see it your way? 🙂

Originally posted by Innominate__1
As i keep saying yes.. Featwise akuma has more... And i would concede he'd win if it were more of a ''let's stand still and hit each other with our strongest attacks and see who wins'' type of fight but i somehow doubt either of these guys would stand still and let themselves get hit by the other...

Who said they stand still? It doesnt matter one bit... Goenitz has no way of even slowing Akuma down, how is he going to prevent getting hit?

Originally posted by Innominate__1
And when did i create this powerset? In terms of story goenitz is pretty much the 2nd strongest boss (under orochi)... The fact that he beat someone like rugal at a very young age in one hit should say something... (even if rugal isn't able to beat akuma i doubt akuma was that strong at said age) i state this to somehow get an idea of the difference in power these characters started off with...

So, Goenitz is stronger than Igniz? Or Mukai? Or Saiki? No, I don't think so...

and your appeal to use younger versions instead of current is invalid. That was not stated in the OP, so bringing up that Goenitz might once have been more powerful than akuma at a specific age is not relevant to current Goenitz and current Akuma.

Originally posted by Innominate__1
Like i said, i use story, context, logic... So logically he'd get stronger by the time kof'96 rolled around... (Which is the last we see of him) and going by his profile it states all of which ive posted previously (except when i use ''unknown ranges'' like in his translocating for example) and you're correct in that he's never created a f5 tornado before... But do you honestly have to see it before you believe someone with the power and control of wind currents can actually do it? It's in his profile btw, as well as in game the wind flowing about and the sky having that hole there...

There is no actual logic in suppositions.

Your assuming he'd suddenly break out with a never before seen power to fight Akuma, simply because he can control air currents? We've seen the upper limits of his aeromancy in the Stadium collapse. To claim higher levels of power requires evidence dude, not assumptions. Besides, it's pointless. I've already proved that even if Goenitz throws 50 F5 tornadoes simultaneously at Akuma, Akuma can simply shrug them off due to his unbeleivably high durability and ability to remain firmly planted on the ground when he wants to. Your bawwing about Goenitz's capabilities simply cannot match that. Even Jupiter's "great Red Spot" super hurricane that is 3 times the size of Earth would not budge him, seeing that it's windspeeds are only at around 270 MPH...

Originally posted by Innominate__1
So like i said i see your point, if this were a physical fight akuma'd take it via he's more durable, martial prowess, blah blah, but powerful? Against wind? A hurricane(in his profile as well as that glimpse of his power in game)? Then im not so sure, even in his pro. it's stated he uses his powers to fight, same as orochi... @DSZ Aside from that, how am i diliberately provoking you? Is it cause i oppose you or don't see it your way? 🙂

He generated no Hrricane, and even if he did, whats the windspeed? can it match the 25 MTs he withstood with the island sinker? No hurricane on Earth has come within a fraction of that much power, we're talking near mile deep craters level of force here, and the Stadium was still upright in parts.

Your provoking with snide remarks. That is uncalled for. it has nothing to do with your opposition to me, if the snide remarks where gone, I would not have a thing wrong with this debate (Besides the circular logicyour using)

Originally posted by Innominate__1
As i keep saying yes.. Featwise akuma has more... And i would concede he'd win if it were more of a ''let's stand still and hit each other with our strongest attacks and see who wins'' type of fight but i somehow doubt either of these guys would stand still and let themselves get hit by the other...
We've already discussed that issue, Akuma doesn't need to touch a single finger on the guy in order to kill him when he can do it via energy projection. Besides, if he uses his forest buster attack he wouldn't even need a direct hit, the resultant shock waves of its recoil will do the job for him.
Originally posted by Innominate__1
So like i said i see your point, if this were a physical fight akuma'd take it via he's more durable, martial prowess, blah blah,
Riiiiight, keep ignoring the forest buster...
Originally posted by Innominate__1
but powerful? Against wind? A hurricane(in his profile as well as that glimpse of his power in game)?
Wind gusts... a hurricane... against a freaking hypersonic forest nuking ki blast?🤨

Like I said before, this thread has become ridiculous, the character you're trying to defend here just don't have what it takes to put Akuma down, he CANNOT KILL Akuma. Goenitz at best would be considered an annoyance to him never a threat, Akuma would pulverise this dude.

some guy one Gamefaqs is claming that Akuma doesn't have high durablity when his SF3 Third Strike ending suggest other wise. he also claimming that Akuma's feats are mostly energy channling, which is bongus cause he has no idea how Street Fighter works.

Akuma claims another victory.

@unrealman

I think that the Gamefaqs's dude claiming os from a gameplay-wise prospective, and it's true that Gouki has low defence to balance his power, speed and large array of special moves.

But canonwise I think that everyone with at least 2 working brain cells would understand that Gouki has impressive durability.

I think that Goenitz's wind powers can dry Gouki's hair and gi after his 3rd strike ending quite well, but defeat Gouki?! Never!

Haha... Im gone for a couple of days and everyone gangs up on goenitz huh? Haha... Ok firstly what snide remarks? @DSZ you treat every post i make as a snide remark.. Honestly im not even trying to upset you (is it the emmoticons? 🙂 ) anyway, as for the forest-buster feat... If you're implying that the side-effect explosion won't be blocked or somehow averted by goenitz (and he'd just stand there waiting for it to hit him) then, he'd deserve to get ko'd by it... I don't see that happening for some reason... I don't see any respectable video game fighter let itself take on an explosion with their face... Im not ignoring it just with such an attack.. Why waste time taking it on directly? (Most if not all) video game characters block for said reasons... Moving on @DSZ you bring up a good point,(about whether goenitz is stronger than ''those from the past'' though not fully explored yet) i brought that topic up to put in prespective how powerful orochi was/is whatever, seeing as beings are still trying to ''tap'' into it's power (since the only way you'll believe someone is strong is by feats i used the story) and so it is why i stated that (whether goenitz is in fact stronger than them...? As of now, i am not certain... But good question) and as for akuma being able to just casually stroll through jupiter's big red spot? Wow... I won't even touch that... So ok the 25 megatonne thing.. i keep seeing the ending and I argue this was more of a focused attack instead of a regular one akuma can do at anytime during a fight (mostly because when it jumps from one pannel to the other the attack is already in progress) and even if it's not he'd still have to hit him with it.. And we know akuma's fast but if this is in fact a focused attack he'd have to preform both at once (based on goenitz's translocation speed), that'd be difficult to pull off, even for akuma... also, if he channeled said energy (25 MT) how is he surviving it, he didn't get hit by it? Therefore, the only implication i see on akuma's great durability, is the submarine feat.. So maybe, he is prone to some damage.. Moving on, as i said in his profile (goenitz's) it's clearly stated he can fly, create hurricanes, (and you didn't consider those as hurricane winds in the game?) as well was, create blades of air (could be that's why his cyclone attack cuts and has that weird claw slash attack).. So with all THAT he's but a mere fly to akuma? (Who he could've stomped at 18 would they both be the same age.. Haha!! Jk i won't use that as an edge he posseses i was trying to point out how poewerful goenitz already was) Again... Wow... I like feats, don't get me wrong, but clearly goenitz seems powerful as well,(is maybe why he's a dam BOSS in the game) and yes, it's a shame he wasn't explored further, he is still CLEARLY powerful... Reminds me of oro(from sf you may have heard of him 😄) no said feats to speak of, (besides beating ryu) not much is known about him(though somehow he uses TK) but somehow fought akuma to a draw.. Hm.. And it was Canon-wise too was it not? If not he is stated as equal in power with akuma 🙂 (but how he has NO FEATS!?!?) how's THAT for a snide remark? 😛 (did it cause you kept accusing me of it)

Originally posted by Innominate__1
Haha... anyway, as for the forest-buster feat... If you're implying that the side-effect explosion won't be blocked or somehow averted by goenitz (and he'd just stand there waiting for it to hit him) then, he'd deserve to get ko'd by it... I don't see that happening for some reason... I don't see any respectable video game fighter let itself take on an explosion with their face... Im not ignoring it just with such an attack.. Why waste time taking it on directly? (Most if not all) video game characters block for said reasons...
If I'm implying the attack won't be blocked? Goenitz doesn't have anything under his belt shown so far capable of fending off anything with a power output comparable to that of a small nuclear dispositive, and much less the durability to say he can withstand that. Also the area of effect of said attack is far too great for Goenitz to get away of it. And you're again appealing to game mechanics when you say ''video game characters block for some reason''.

Moreover... knocked out you say? I'm afraid it would be a bit worst than that...

And I don't want to be rude but your personal beliefs are of little importance in a debate like this unless you can back them up with a valid reason. Saying Goenitz will by some miracle acquire the durability to withstand an attack as powerful as the Sekia Kuretsuha or the speed required to escape its area of effect just because otherwise he wouldn't be a respectable fighting game character in your book is hardly a valid reason.

So ok the 25 megatonne thing.. i keep seeing the ending and I argue this was more of a focused attack instead of a regular one akuma can do at anytime during a fight (mostly because when it jumps from one pannel to the other the attack is already in progress) and even if it's not he'd still have to hit him with it.. And we know akuma's fast but if this is in fact a focused attack he'd have to preform both at once (based on goenitz's translocation speed), that'd be difficult to pull off, even for akuma...
Lol he can't use it in a fight? There's nothing actually stoping him from just rush towards his opponent to try and hit him with such a move. Now if he could or not manage to do that on Goenitz will just depend on who's faster than the other. And Akuma don't really need to hit the guy with island sinking or mountain spliting force, these feats are often brought into debates only as a benchmark of Akuma's striking power.
also, if he channeled said energy (25 MT) how is he surviving it, he didn't get hit by it?
Third law of Newton.

The fact Akuma sank an island with a physical blow without suffering any lethal injury on his body as immediate responce is already a good indicator as to what level of force he can withstand.

Therefore, the only implication i see on akuma's great durability, is the submarine feat.. So maybe, he is prone to some damage..
Which in any case would still far too much for his opponent to overcome.

For example, If you pick up a car and drive it at full speed towards a truck you'll be able cause some damage on it, but the car will definitively get the worst of the collision... as for it is far less durable the truck. That's what Akuma basically did in his 3rd Strike ending, he went towards a large vessel at high speed and managed to shatter it like glass while he was laughing at the situation. Guess which is more durable, Akuma or the ship?

Rhetorical question obviously. Goenitz would still have to muster greater force than what is required to shatter a large vessel in order to cause minimal damage on Akuma.

I like feats, don't get me wrong, but clearly goenitz seems powerful as well,(is maybe why he's a dam BOSS in the game) and yes, it's a shame he wasn't explored further, he is still CLEARLY powerful... Reminds me of oro(from sf you may have heard of him) no said feats to speak of, (besides beating ryu) not much is known about him(though somehow he uses TK) but somehow fought akuma to a draw.. Hm.. And it was Canon-wise too was it not? If not he is stated as equal in power with akuma (but how he has NO FEATS!?!?)
Actually neither Akuma nor Oro fought at full strenght for all we know. Otherwise if Oro was indeed able to match Akuma at full power like Gouken almost did prior to the Alpha series, then that would be just an indication of how powerful he is, and in this case we could even use Akuma's feats to gauge Oro's powers through a method called ''powerscaling'', which is also known as A > B > C logic ( if you ever watched or read Dragon Ball you will understand what this mean ), though this method is very imprecise and feats of course are always welcome to the table. But honestly I don't know how it would help Goenitz here since he never fought against anyone with the feats to even beggin to compare with Akuma, same goes for Orochi in this case. To sum it up, no one in the entire KOF series has acomplished any feats that would put him / her on par with Akuma.

Originally posted by Innominate__1
Haha... Im gone for a couple of days and everyone gangs up on goenitz huh? Haha...

So? If you are right, popular oppinion shouldn't matter if you have actual facts.

Originally posted by Innominate__1
Ok firstly what snide remarks? @DSZ you treat every post i make as a snide remark.. Honestly im not even trying to upset you (is it the emmoticons? 🙂 )

No, the fact that you have to add in little jab remarks on every other sentence.

Originally posted by Innominate__1
anyway, as for the forest-buster feat... If you're implying that the side-effect explosion won't be blocked or somehow averted by goenitz (and he'd just stand there waiting for it to hit him) then, he'd deserve to get ko'd by it... I don't see that happening for some reason... I don't see any respectable video game fighter let itself take on an explosion with their face... Im not ignoring it just with such an attack.. Why waste time taking it on directly? (Most if not all) video game characters block for said reasons...

Again, nobody said Goenitz would smply be waiting to be destroyed, but the fact that you think he can mount some sort of defence against the attack is pretty damning to your case.

Explain how the bloody hell he's going to block or *snicker* avert it? He's only chance is to...

Originally posted by Innominate__1
Moving on @DSZ you bring up a good point,(about whether goenitz is stronger than ''those from the past'' though not fully explored yet) i brought that topic up to put in prespective how powerful orochi was/is whatever, seeing as beings are still trying to ''tap'' into it's power (since the only way you'll believe someone is strong is by feats i used the story) and so it is why i stated that (whether goenitz is in fact stronger than them...? As of now, i am not certain... But good question)

Doesn't matter. Goenitz has not proven to BE stronger than either. In fact, I think Chin actually claimed that Igniz was more difficult to defeat than Orochi was. How true that clam is, I'll leave to you.

Originally posted by Innominate__1
and as for akuma being able to just casually stroll through jupiter's big red spot? Wow... I won't even touch that... So ok the 25 megatonne thing.. i keep seeing the ending and I argue this was more of a focused attack instead of a regular one akuma can do at anytime during a fight (mostly because when it jumps from one pannel to the other the attack is already in progress) and even if it's not he'd still have to hit him with it..

Which certainly won't be hard, considering he was hit repeatedly by less skilled opponents before.

Originally posted by Innominate__1
And we know akuma's fast but if this is in fact a focused attack he'd have to preform both at once (based on goenitz's translocation speed), that'd be difficult to pull off, even for akuma... also, if he channeled said energy (25 MT) how is he surviving it, he didn't get hit by it? Therefore, the only implication i see on akuma's great durability, is the submarine feat.. So maybe, he is prone to some damage..

Prove it was a focused technique, and even of it was, he pulled it off at less than half power. He survived it by executing it, he was right at ground zero. In order to physically perform a feat, your body needs to be able to survive the forces it generates.

Oh, and lava baths, don't forget those.

Originally posted by Innominate__1
Moving on, as i said in his profile (goenitz's) it's clearly stated he can fly, create hurricanes, (and you didn't consider those as hurricane winds in the game?) as well was, create blades of air (could be that's why his cyclone attack cuts and has that weird claw slash attack).. So with all THAT he's but a mere fly to akuma? (Who he could've stomped at 18 would they both be the same age.. Haha!! Jk i won't use that as an edge he posseses i was trying to point out how poewerful goenitz already was)

His profile? You mean the one you pulled from the Wiki? Err.... No... wikis have always been questionable as to canon authenticity, simply because anyone and everyone can edit it.

Ingame info is more solid, but as I said the Yonokaze is nowhere near even F1 tornado sizes... How the ever living hell are you pulling hurricanes?

Like I said, current Akuma and current Goenitz is who we are debating, not your 18yo comparitive.

Originally posted by Innominate__1
Again... Wow... I like feats, don't get me wrong, but clearly goenitz seems powerful as well,(is maybe why he's a dam BOSS in the game) and yes, it's a shame he wasn't explored further, he is still CLEARLY powerful... Reminds me of oro(from sf you may have heard of him 😄) no said feats to speak of, (besides beating ryu) not much is known about him(though somehow he uses TK) but somehow fought akuma to a draw.. Hm.. And it was Canon-wise too was it not? If not he is stated as equal in power with akuma 🙂 (but how he has NO FEATS!?!?) how's THAT for a snide remark? 😛 (did it cause you kept accusing me of it)

"Clearly"? Wut? Hows about no? Hows about just because someone is a boss, doesn't mean he can beat someone? Hows about the fact that Akuma was a HIDDEN boss in his 2 first games, and his more powerful incarnations have been hidden bosses in almost every SF game since? Hows about, you actually PROVE something?

Probably because Oro canonically did so. There's a difference bitween confirmed fact and the suppositions your using. Goenitz did gouge out Rugal's eye, he activated Leona's blood riot, he did defeat Kyo 1on1, and then got roflstomped dead.... And none of this proves he can fly or generate hurricane/cyclone/typhoon level storms, nor does it come anywhere close to proving Goenitz can stand against Akuma. Oro can, because he did.... canonically. And because he did it within story, he requires no feats.

Hows about that?

Ok so... Where are we now? im gonna try and reply quickly so i might miss some stuff for now.. According to ALL that's been said here, so far, of akuma it's a wonder how any SF character can stand up to him? Somehow it's possible though and somehow a guy with NO feats was able to fight him to a draw, my reason for using him as an example was simply to illustrate the point that feats (although nice and all) are not what define a character's power(though it helps) the story does, so like i keep saying in the story Goenitz is the strongest of the ''orochi clan'' he's been defeated only once (not fought to a draw, not inconclusive fights) by two or maybe 3 of the most powerful characters in the kof universe... His dam winning streak alone is fact enough for me to say he has what it takes to hold his own against akuma (though you will argue this with the characters not being on par with akuma anyway), his abilities also further my decision in why i think he's capable, and his only appearance only furthers my claim in why he's able to take on and possibly beat akuma... All you guys go on is small obscure and contraversial feats and nothing else, still the story overrides the feats because of someone like oro, so using logic and context and clues from the story to gauge how powerful goenitz is, who took 2 people (and possibly the best if not among the fighters from said story) at least to bring him down... What in the world else do you want me to prove? Can he split an island? Maybe not... Can he survive in the bottom of an ocean? Maybe not... But so what? It's not an arm-wrestling match.. He's got other abilities that don't rely on strength, just more on power, it's why he fights the way he does, this isn't ''my personal opinion'' (that's all in the game and story) moreso than it is yours, who just keep on mentioning these 3 points of ''concrete evidence'' to back up a fight, if akuma was so durable and all that, he wouldn't lose or have a draw on his record but mysteriously he does... You again will ask ''what feats? Where does it show this?'' and it doesn't show anything like what your asking about in game, but judging by the story (which is what backs up any character's power feats or no feats aside), his abilities, his winning streak record (and not pushover characters: rugal, maki, kyo), his demonstration of power (it could be a feat but he only uses this power when he arrives) where he blows everyone in the stadium away and crumbles it down, as well as continues to keep this large area in continuous gust of wind (hurricane winds is where i get the hurricane thing) 🙂 ...Well it's why i keep on debating this with you, and more is yet to come... 🙂

Originally posted by Innominate__1
Ok so... Where are we now? im gonna try and reply quickly so i might miss some stuff for now..

Right....

Originally posted by Innominate__1
According to ALL that's been said here, so far, of akuma it's a wonder how any SF character can stand up to him? Somehow it's possible though and somehow a guy with NO feats was able to fight him to a draw, my reason for using him as an example was simply to illustrate the point that feats (although nice and all) are not what define a character's power(though it helps) the story does, so like i keep saying in the story Goenitz is the strongest of the ''orochi clan'' he's been defeated only once (not fought to a draw, not inconclusive fights) by two or maybe 3 of the most powerful characters in the kof universe...

There is a massive dufference bitween using a character from in-universe having no feats being capable of going toe to toe with Akuma, and a character from a completely different universe being featless and doing the same. Why? Because the comparative is there in story. The character can be said to be powerful based on in-universe cpmparatives due to his win/loss record like this. What you are trying to do is draw the same comparative using a character from a different game, and it does not work like that because the character your rooting for has not faced anyone comparative to your opponent in-universe.

Originally posted by Innominate__1
His dam winning streak alone is fact enough for me to say he has what it takes to hold his own against akuma (though you will argue this with the characters not being on par with akuma anyway), his abilities also further my decision in why i think he's capable, and his only appearance only furthers my claim in why he's able to take on and possibly beat akuma...

His winning streak? I beleive I addressed this before... His winning streak consists of Beating a younger Rugal, beating Kyo, and Maki... Thats it. Afterwhich he got stomped into the ground. And yes, I will argue that. How the hell do you come to the conclusion that Goenitz defeats Akuma.... by saying he defeats people not in Akuma's league? His abilities are surpassed by Akuma's, and how does goenitz's one apperance supercede Akuma's many many apperances, nevermind that the one thing he did is as an ant is to a giant? His feat, while impressive, is but a miniscule fraction of the power Akuma displayed in base form...

Originally posted by Innominate__1
All you guys go on is small obscure and contraversial feats and nothing else, still the story overrides the feats because of someone like oro, so using logic and context and clues from the story to gauge how powerful goenitz is, who took 2 people (and possibly the best if not among the fighters from said story) at least to bring him down...

Really? No, what we did was demonstrate that Goenitz's biggest showing was easily overshadowed by Akuma's multiple and far more impressive showings. Really, you have no case to make such a grandiose claim without a single modicum of proof. Your relying on completely vage extrapolation that is subjective to interpretation which means one thing, your basing this on your oppinion alone. And in debates Evidence>>>>>>Oppinion. Why? because evidence is irrefutable.

Originally posted by Innominate__1
What in the world else do you want me to prove? Can he split an island? Maybe not... Can he survive in the bottom of an ocean? Maybe not... But so what? It's not an arm-wrestling match.. He's got other abilities that don't rely on strength, just more on power, it's why he fights the way he does, this isn't ''my personal opinion'' (that's all in the game and story) moreso than it is yours, who just keep on mentioning these 3 points of ''concrete evidence'' to back up a fight, if akuma was so durable and all that, he wouldn't lose or have a draw on his record but mysteriously he does...

I want you to prove that Goenitz actually can defeat Akuma, with evidence and not oppinion, and do it without relying on PIS or Plot Device. Do that, and I'll eat my humble pie.

Originally posted by Innominate__1
You again will ask ''what feats? Where does it show this?'' and it doesn't show anything like what your asking about in game, but judging by the story (which is what backs up any character's power feats or no feats aside), his abilities, his winning streak record (and not pushover characters: rugal, maki, kyo), his demonstration of power (it could be a feat but he only uses this power when he arrives) where he blows everyone in the stadium away and crumbles it down, as well as continues to keep this large area in continuous gust of wind (hurricane winds is where i get the hurricane thing) 🙂 ...Well it's why i keep on debating this with you, and more is yet to come... 🙂

So... Your saying you would rather take YOUR interpretation of the story over hard evidence to the contrary? I'm sorry Innom, but all that does is prove that you are in denial.

A younger Rugal at the time of his defeat to Goenitz and was essentially featless himself. Kyo, who as I said is far less skilled than Akuma is, especially at 95/96, and Maki who is even more of an unknown... Now your chaining to characters wh, at that point in time, had done nothing to substantiate themselves either. Can any of these people defeat Akuma 1on1? No... Not even close.

IM FINALLY BACK.... Sorry for the delay, so let me start of with the very last post... which is by DSZ... and it goes like this..

so what i was trying to do was...? well Nope.. what i am doing is using an example of how even in a story that has a character pretty much portrayed as unbeatable (as is the general norm for akuma), is still able to be fought to a draw by a character without ANY feats... so whether his feats are (akuma's in this case), be it, "better" or "more powerful" or whatever, it still doesn't mean the opposing character MUST have even stronger feats to win, or at least stalemate.. is more of what im doing 🙂

He actually beat rugal (who was much older) when he (goenitz) was at the age of 18, i brought up this point to put in perspective what he was a capable of doing at such a young age... i won't argue he can fight better since then (he was good enough to fight kyo and iori though but he was probably just using his powers more than his martial prowess), and probably not since for some reason he became a priest? but as far as his powers go.. well i'm inclined to say that he did increased those nicely, seeing that even in his "one appearance" he delivered a vast amount of damage and dispatched the current champion effortlessly... as for akuma, what power in base form has akuma displayed here? in his endings i'd say that's a speculation (him being in his base form for the duration of the feats) at best.. in the island sinking punch his eyes were glowing as he struck the ground... his eyes generally aren't glowing all the time in his base form are they? and in the submarine feat, he's glowing again... does he always have that reddish aura in his base form? and the other one where he shoots at the moon... again he's glowing and his aura is gushing out of him... it looks alot to me like he powers up or whatever but hey maybe that is his base form.. 🙂

what evidence? the feats again? they are impressive sure but it does not look at all like they are the authority in power settings... more of demonstrations of power.. if they were then akuma'd already be declared the strongest character in SF, is he? nope... other people can go toe to toe with him.. as already stated.. WITHOUT THE USE OF FEATS!! 🙂

evidence? prove it to you? haha... this is in a realm of speculation and possibility so there's no way to "prove" who the winner is... but as far as deducing goenitz's abilities, victories, and who it took to beat him... (kyo, iori, probably chizuru), and his "one" glimpse of power... i still argue that goenitz wins... but you won't accept that cause you'll say these are all PIS or Plot Device... idk how they are but sure... how bout we not use nonsensical obscure feats either? 🙂

My interpretation? when does it become "my interpretation" of the story?? what things am i interpreting wrong here according to you DSZ!?!? 😠 haha... jk 😛 but really wth am i stating that is my own "opinion or interpretation"? everything i've said is what i've seen in the story... and denial? haha!! yeah ok, im in denial...

If rugal were younger and "feat-less" as you so call it... why was his defeat (in a single blow, mind you) a big deal? and how is that not a feat? the context of the story for 95/96 pretty much hints that this stranger is a very powerful adversary... and Maki's powers are unknown sure.. but she was actually keeping the orochi seal intact with said powers, once goenitz killed her the orochi was freed, we can't dismiss she's weak just because she's unknown, as capcom clearly illustrates 🙂 then there's kyo, (the current champion) got dispatched in pretty much a single move... also goenitz was never beaten in a 1on1, plus you got that command of wind, and stadium destroying demonstration and his fall which i believe, came because of the combined efforts of iori,kyo, and chizuru, but that's for later.. so like i said with all of those abilities, demonstrations of power, victories, and even the way he got taken out.. says to me he'd AT LEAST give akuma a very good fight if not win... All you'll aways try to point to is that goenitz's feats don't match akuma's... da da da... but i've already pointed out how feats aren't necessarily the deciding factor, nor make you more powerful, in this discussion... i've used other means to come to my conclusion that is just a matter of my opinion, same as your methodology of "feats or GTFO", brings you yours.. 🙂

No offence intended, but that's another post of yours that adds nothing to a thread that should have gone down the bottom line for good.

No one's going to agree with your preference driven opinion with all the evidence at hand pointing against it.

As for your argument about characters with no feats doing well against Akuma; the fact Oro and Gouken were able to stand their ground or even surviving to a freak like him is already a feat of their own, and that's of course assuming Akuma wasn't holding back, as he usually does.

And just to put end to your senseless assumption that Akuma is unable to use his mountain spliting punches in battle I'd suggest you to skip to @0.25 in the video bellow to see what happens when he misses a punch and hits the ground.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZ6SfLNvldw

Goenitz never met anyone as strong or even close to Akuma's level in battle plus he lost to people far less impressive. Kyo, Iori and Chizuru with all of their feats combined still not holding a candle to someone that can sink landmasses with a punch, Akuma could simply one-shot them all at once in case he feels like doing so.

Which character can kill or at least knock out the other, that's all what the versus threads are about. And no matter how much we go through it, the evidence we have at hand to work with just says Goenitz will get blitzed and punched in the head or nuked out of his a** by a forest razing blast.

If you @Innominate__1 wants to believe the character you're defending here could or would win this particular match, despite all the hard evidence going against your opinion, then just be happy thinking like that, but quit trying to make people buy into your sort of logic (obviously preference driven I shall point out) because no one will, at least no one with some knowledge on both characters.

And if you don't like the sort of treatment Goenitz is receiving here and think it's unfair maybe because he hasn't got the chance to showcase the full extent of his abilities in his one appearance you should just request a moderator to lock this thread, because no one here is going to assume a level of power for him so much beyond what he's demonstrated so far, which doesn't even come close to what is required to overcome the opponent he's been pitted against here.

what is up? haha...cool another post, ok well here goes @SG...

Which post the one before this one? and why is not good according to you? adds nothing...? idk what u mean... 😎

and as for no one agreeing with me... do you think it matters? this is a VS forum so of course everyone's gonna disagree on some topics at some point... and you keep saying this is my "preference driven opinion"... where do you get that from? i keep stating points (character info and story context) from the game as well as from the story, all of which i make sure are valid (canon and logical) before posting... unlike other people (you know they are) who just insist on the feats being all that matters.. disregarding abilities, story context, and over-all evaluation of characters,negating the need come up with better arguments for said characters...

and you didn't get it.. the point i was making was not about the characters doing well against akuma... the point i was making is that feats are NOT the authority in a fight, as you seem to think so (like saying just because you're strong means you'll win for sure)... i lean more for story context... like in the SF storyline where oro with 0 feats stalemated with akuma... how does that work there? Obviously, the guys over at capcom said "screw it, we'll make him powerful without showing it"... thus implying that no matter how powerful or great or numerous the feats are it doesn't gurantee a victory... and in the story, if any character is made to be equal to another, then no amount of feats will say otherwise...

my senseless assumption? haha.. funny guy, that vid was pretty cool.. and since the storyline for SF IV takes place before 3 right? (who the hell knows, but that's what i've read thus far) 😛 we can speculate it's canon huh? well also from what i've read... when akuma challenged gouken it was at his dojo.. is the dojo there? then how do we know for sure this ending's canon and not just a glamorized intro? Don't get me wrong it's cool and all but it doesn't make sense.. we can speculate they fought all the way up an active volcano (in fact it's the only thing we can speculate since if you were able to somehow make a hole in the earth you wouldn't instantly fall into lava... or magma or whatever that liquid is, that's a little far fetched... almost senseless if you think about it, but the punch is strong... 🙂 btw the fact that gouken blocked one of his punches shows that not ALL of his punches are mountain splitting... and even at that, what makes you think goenitz would fight him this way? i think it'd be more of a projectile or range battle there cause as i've stated before in martial prowess i'd say akuma's superior, but why would this fight be one about hitting each other? either one at one point might think "hey i can just send you away... with wind.... or energy blasts" 😛

wow... to quote you "Akuma could simply one-shot them all at once in case he feels like doing so." are you even listening to yourself here? i seriously doubt they'd fall in line at the sight of the mighty akuma and wait for him to "one-shoot them all at once" please... plus being impressive is usually always an opinion, does it matter if these characters are impressive to you? nah... cause their abilities speak for themselves, the fact that one of chizuru's (super move/power move/desperation move.. whichever) abilities is to temporarily "seal" you're energy or ability to use your special moves.. but in the energy dept. it affects you if you use ki (ryo's or terry's case) or element based (kyo's, iori's,) or psychic (athena, kensou) energy... so what is akuma immune to this? it's more than likely how they defeated goenitz... not to mention orochi...

KO'd even if he were to reach him goenitz is not totally defenseless, he's got that one eye-gouging move 😛 and nuked out oh is a**... haha!! that's a way of putting it 🙂 and you know what? no doubt he might... if we go by your logic of him standing there not defending himself and letting the blast hit him... it doesn't matter who you put next to this blast... im pretty sure ANY character will take cover or block... or what's even smarter yet? counter akuma's a** before he shoots the dam thing... because in the video of his ending this attack has a low execution... there's rumbling (i counted about 4 seconds) THEN the blast... so... before this power-explosive-shock-wave-blast is even formed.. you got that small window of opportunity, but it's enough to smack this fool in the face 😛

i've said in this very tread that the reason i believe goenitz can take on akuma and AT LEAST give him a good fight is what i've stated before but again here goes the list... 1. his demonstration of power- (yes the stadium thing) it is small in comparison to a few of akuma's but this feat was intended to be a minuscule one anyway, as it was just a glimpse of his power, and he doesn't have to physically touch it to demolish it.. he does it upon arrival.. 2. his source of power - doesn't really come from within, it's more supernatural in nature (demon orochi) and the fact that he can endow it to anyone and sustain it, seeing as he did it for rugal which made rugal that much stronger, as well, so he doesn't have to train or anything like that, he's just naturally (or supernaturally) powerful.. 3. victories- goenitz easily defeated rugal when geonitz was 18 in one hit... what other fighter can boast this? not even kyo or even akuma can say they've done something like this at 18... so by this circumstance we can deduct that he's now stronger.. not a better fighter but... if you're that young and already powerful it's only logical that you'll be at least a bit more when you're older (every other character gets stronger with age, if not mostly)... then proceeded to kill maki (chizuru's twin and guardian of the seal, which seals orochi) has pretty much the same powers as chizuru and whatever abilities having the yata mirror brings... and destroy the seal... he might not of won but the other 2 weren't there to help her were they? then kyo who's the kof champ. and has never known defeat... was beat effortlessly.. and kyo isn't weak since he's never lost is basically like a prodigy of his clan and is very powerful and a skilled fighter.. i'll stop here but there's more 4. abilities- can trans-locate via wind, create any wind-related projectile: cyclones, tornadoes, hurricanes, blades of air.. so yeah for those reasons and more is what i use as "my" logic... and i have knowledge of both characters as well... akuma's got the upper hand in a physical confrontation, but i don't see this getting physical... and though these characters may not be "impressive" to you, it doesn't mean they're weak..

ok ok... what? how who's treating goenitz?? DUDE, WHY ARE YOU GUYS ALL HATING?!?!? 😠 hahahaha!! oh man.. you've terribly misjudged me.. 😄 i don't care how you "treat" goenitz... that's the problem... conversely, you guys, get so offended when anyone depicts akuma as weak.. i don't think akuma's weak.. i do agree he is strong.. and i've even said in this very post that IMO akuma's is probably superior to goenitz in a "physical fight" seeing as these characters have more than just physical means we have to use more data to compare them... so i don't dismiss your feat comparisons... but why stop there? let's use abilities, fight records, powers, sources of powers, what vulnerabilities each have... that's what i'm doing mostly not just stating my opinion and calling yours stupid... if anything you(and others) are more guilty of that... so please don't presume to tell me to "request a moderator to lock this thread" let them close the thread whenever they want... i don't play that way, and i'm doing my best to keep this civil, i stick to the point of the thread.. i could very easily turn this into "me vs you" but i don't need to resort to that.. when a certain someone (he knows who he is) started flaming (just once tough) i didn't even bother to report it... it doesn't bother me at all, i've got more but i'm going back to the point... so yeah the way we gauge "power levels" differ, your way is to see feats and nothing else, i use everything else then feats... because if this were an actual fight, having a stronger impact punch won't mean much if you can't impact with it... and keep said character who's trying to impact with it away, it also helps having some weird supernatural powers and a very strong power level from an early age... js 😮‍💨

When I said your last post don't add anything to the thread it's because you kept repeating those very same arguments since you brought this old thread back to life.

In essence, feats aren't what makes a character powerful... but they are the EVIDENCE we can look at to deduce how powerful a certain character is. In these forums where fictional characters are compared to each other we work with the evidence we have at hand to determine, or at least ASSUME, who's the more likely to win. This system (which you referred to as ''feats or GTFO''😉 works fine doing many fictions a lot of justice preventing that things get out of control with fanboysm and wank.

Oro and Gouken going toe to toe with Akuma is a way Capcom found to show how powerful they are... without depicting them sinking an island or razing a forest.

Characters on the levels of Akuma and Gouken don't have their whole fights against each other restricted to small enclosures like a dojo even though the battle may have started there. Also for reference that same video you can see as well in the opening sequence of vanilla Street Fighter IV.

And what the fact that Gouken was able to block a punch from Akuma proves actually is that his strenght is on the same level or at least comparable to Akuma's, and that his body is durable enough to withstand mountain-spliting force, given the fact Akuma wasn't holding back.

Nice, you don't see it getting physical. Again, the argument ''I don't see'' doesn't carry much weight in versus threads unless you can back it up with evidence. The opponent Goenitz's been pitted against here is the same man that leaped from the bottom of the ocean to the surface in a time frame of about ten seconds wrecking a ship in the process. Mere wind gusts won't stop that sort of momentum plus Akuma has a move that gives him momentary intangibility making it even easier for an approach. More than likely he'd be able of connecting his punch here in case he goes for it.

Yes, in a close combat Goenitz is just as defenseless as a sheep in front of a wolf, and that eye-ripping move wouldn't work on someone evidenced as having island level durability.

Now as for Kyo, Iori and Chizuru. I never meant to say they would stay there waiting for Akuma to kills them, it's more like they can't avoid him since he is a good deal faster than any of them. Also their bodies aren't durable enough for them to survive Akuma's onslaught. Chizuru's ability of sealing away other's powers may work on Akuma actually, tough his sheer amount of power which far surpasses the likes of Ryo and Terry as well as Goenitz and Orochi may prove too much for her. No that she'd have the chance to pull that off before getting stomped dead in the ground along with her allies, which aren't much of a factor either.

So you're sure any character including Goenitz can block the forest buster, not relevant if you can't provide durability feats as evidence for that claim. The 4 seconds charging time isn't a problem either, there's nothing Goenitz could do to throw him out of it, he'd be unable to faze Akuma. He wasn't even fazed by the recoil of his blast which completely wiped out everything in a radius of at least 150 meters and he was in the mid of all this devastation, his body being the focal point of it. And I'm not implying Goenitz will stay there waiting the attack hit him, he wouldn't even know what's Akuma going to pull off to beggin with. And said blast travels at hypersonic speeds, somewhere in the double digit figure at minimun seeing how it reached space in less than 5 seconds. That's way too fast for Goenitz to dodge if it's fired in his direction, and even if he manages to avoid a direct hit via aim-dodging, still he'd be taken down by the shockwaves. Either way he can't escape.

The glimpse argument is flawed, you can't really quantify how much more destructive Goenitz could be in relation to his stadium wrecking feat. That's the same case for Akuma, his best feat was accomplished in his base form (Shin is characterized with a purple gi, and Oni is a complete monster, so yea that was his base form) and it was back in Alpha which takes place at least 10 years before the latest installment in the series which is Street Fighter III: 3rd Strike (yes 3 takes place after 4). With that said it's probable Akuma has gotten even stronger since then, but still we cannot quantify by how much until or unless he does something greater. In versus forums we have to limit Akuma to island destroying level, as for Goenitz his best feat would be his limit in this case, that's the general assumption in vs. forums.

Beating up a younger version of Rugal doesn't tell us anything really. It was Goenitz if I recall correctly that gave him a fraction of Orochi's power which obviously grew within him over the years until the guy appears as a boss in 94, and even later in 95 in his most powerful incarnation called Omega he still hasn't displayed any feats that would make him a viable standard for comparision with Akuma.

About the Goenitz powers being more ''supernatural'', well it means nothing, really. It's not quantifiable and it doesn't give him any extra ability outside his showings.

And story doesn't override the feats, context of story can only help if there are feats at some point backing it up as precedent. If the thread were Akuma vs. Oro or Gouken we would know they could cause problems to him by the simple fact they DID it in canon.

Akuma and Goenitz will never face each other in a canon battle since they aren't part of the same story. And since Goenitz lacks the direct quantifiable feats to say he can stand to Akuma and give him a good fight the only way to even argue he could do that would be addressing to a sample where Goenitz dealt with someone on those levels, which he didn't. Goenitz simply lacks such precedent going for him, which leads to a direct comparision of feats as the only way to compare him to Akuma in a versus thread. Featwise Akuma beats him in every conceivable way and not only in the strenght department.

back again... ok then... @SG

Repeating which arguments? You mean the abilities he posses that for some reason you believe can't hurt akuma.. because akuma's "destroyed and island" thus, a punch from another character who is clearly strong won't hurt him? that's what your "logic" seems to point out to bring you to your opinion... and i only did 1 post.. you didn't have to reply to give this thread life again did you? but since you did, i'll respect your reply with one of my own 🙂

hehe... i like how you put that the system i identified as "feats or GTFO", seems to work fine with doing justice and "preventing fanboyism and wank"... 😄 it doesn't seem to in this case does it? and i somewhat agree with feats being a good demonstration, and give a good idea of what a character can do (if said character, focused or charged up, or whatever).. but you also have to look at the circumstances these feats are in, which ALOT of you ignore... not to mention all other details concerning character abilities and info.. is mostly my problem with that... so you go by feats, put the character on some high pedestal, and dismiss anything else that is presented as evidence, the only thing you'll accept as "evidence" is a stronger feat.. honestly?

haha... "a way capcom found.."?? for oro (gouken at least was a master) i'd call it a plot hole, but that's just me... and again, my argument is not that they need feats, my argument is that, if this can happen for capcom characters? why exclude all the other ones? or at least all the other ones that are also suppose to powerful? and yes powerful enough to take on akuma...

you're right in the sense that they wouldn't have to be restricted to the dojo, but in the vid you see a splash behind akuma after he does the SGS, i can only assume that's gouken, seeing as he was ko'd by the SGS... but according to the story(i've read for gouken) ken and ryu found him and put his body in the graveyard.. so which is it i wonder? is this vid canon?

so akuma wasn't holding back this time? how do you know when he is or when he isn't? the only clue i got was from his glowing eyes at the end of the vid... anyway, as stated before... the way goenitz fights is to keep his opponents away with projectiles and speed... he wouldn't fight like gouken.. mostly because he won't need to.. 😛

the reason i said "i don't see it.." is because if you had knowledge of how goenitz fights, you'd see that he keeps his opponents away.. (as stated before) why would akuma be different? given his(goenitz) projectiles and abilities and power set, he should do a decent job of it.. or maybe it is because akuma jumped from the bottom of the ocean in a 10-sec. time frame that somehow makes him invulnerable to attacks? also goenitz has a move of intangibility (better i'd say) because he actually disappears almost entirely and reappears elsewhere withing a second... and does this move alot more frequently than akuma does his SGS... he even does it right before preforming a supermove... making it even less predictable to guess where he'll be... you can see akuma when he preforms the SGS.. even in the vid... gouken just probably didn't have a move where he can trans-locate away.. or was too close to akuma..

OK so why in close combat would he be so defenseless? and why wouldn't the eye-gouging thing work? you're saying because of "island level durability"? astounding 😄 even at that, goenitz has other moves, i admit not as "strong" but not ineffective he could use the tokobuse (icy arm) makes blades of air? cuts away at enemies and some of his desperation moves, some don't even deplete his power bar... meaning he can use them whenever he'd like should anyone get too close..

haha... the whole kyo, iori, chizuru thing you put was funny... then you go on to say that akuma's "sheer amount of power far surpasses" goenitz and orochi.. what was that you said earlier "fanboyism and wank"? yeah there seems to be a crap-ton of it in your previous post... 🙂 anyway, since you're putting akuma on terms of speed we've never actually seen (invisible to the naked eye), what makes you think these three can't see him coming? please, even if he attacked one the other two could shoot a projectile or attack him or blitz him from different directions... i've never seen akuma fight more than 1 opponent at once, have you? so how can you make such an assumption? and if chizuru were to seal away his powers (meaning his ki) he'd be reverted back to a level where even ryu could take him (seeing as when he was holding back he wasn't shin and from the looks of it, in order to be shin he has to use his ki)... so kyo and iori taking him at THAT level sounds very sound.. he'd be a strong and pretty fast guy but not out of range of any other strong and pretty fast fighter... much less 2... haha... very funny though... 😄

so if akuma did this blast it'd be all over huh? you implying he'd be successful in executing the blast is almost as well as me saying goenitz can block this blast with one hand... because seeing as if this were a an actual fight 4 seconds is more than enough time to do any move you want on someone charging up.. and so you keep saying that because akuma survived his own blast it would take an even stronger blast or a move stronger than that to faze him? haha... that's just pretty far-fetched man, since we don't see him preforming this attack how can we assume that he isn't focusing (though it seems evidently clear that he is) to be able to preform it anyway? if you were to break him out of his concentration how would he be able to continue doing it? it'd be a counter if anything.. if he were chargin up, all goenitz would have to do is strike him with a projectile or a desperation move (super move)... he's got plenty of grabs and other attacks.. i mean seriously? do you honestly believe he becomes an immovable/invulnerable object as he charges? where the hell did you get that? haha... don't make me laugh...

the glimpse argument is flawed? just because you can quantify...? i don't know... but if this feat was a glimpse of his power, and he preformed it through sheer will (did not have to charge, did not have to strike anything) he commanded the wind to demolish this stadium and to blow everyone away, why is it flawed? maybe you're right, i can't exaggerate and say he can blow away the whole ocean if he wanted to (i doubt that) but for this small feat of his it was pretty destructive and then proceeded to fight the 2 strongest fighters in the game and a 3rd who's got abilities to seal away you're power... has this ever happened for anyone else except orochi? i don't dismiss the feats but seeing as what goenitz abilities are.. well, as i keep saying, he'd take this... he wouldn't need to stand still for akuma to hit him and the fact that he trans-locates more quickly and frequently, and faster (at least in game), has faster projectiles, and what looks like an unlimited power-bar for certain moves.. it's why i don't just look at destructive power to come to some conclusions... it's good to use, sure, but there's more to both these fighters than just that...

i guess i typed too many characters.... anyway continued @SG

if it were a normal goenitz at the age we last saw him, then yeah it shouldn't be a HUGE feat, but it is a big deal when you're that young and an unknown, we don't know much of rugal before the kof series but we can deduce that he was a strong fighter, collecting other very strong fighters for some time (tapped into the orochi power somehow, is why goenitz appeared before him)... and then defeated him in one strike.. and if we were to suppose that the orochi power grew within rugal what do you think it did for goenitz? like i said... story context, and as for omega.. given his abilities, he is a force to be reckoned with but as far as "feats" i can't think of any as of now... doesn't mean there's none though... but still being able to do that at such a young age is a "feat" no other fighter can boast... comparing to who he did it to..

supernatural may not mean anything like you said... but the word itself is carries a powerful connotation... since all of akuma's power sources are natural... (ki, meditation)... and goenitz power source is from a demon, in which the story context tells us, that is vastly powerful... (meaning he doesn't have to meditate nor sacrifice his humanity or whatever other means to become stronger/powerful) well it puts things in another perspective...

story doesn't override feats? then why do we worry about things being canon and non-canon, and reference everything from story or in game? if you said "so and so, has done all these things" and then it turned out that it was just a non-canon event that happened for some reason.. then the feats wouldn't matter.. so i think you got it switched, and again the fact that gouken and oro can take on akuma in canon is another example of feats being elements that back up the story, not the other way around... thus, if we put that much importance into the story then why not story context?? it doesn't make sense... i know these stories are different and you will argue that you're character is stronger and use feats... but you'll use ONLY feats, where as i, will use abilities, story context, analyze characters and story, not just feats... because in a fight it's not necessarily about who is stronger by default in accordance to feats, at least not all of the time

i agree they will never face each other in an actual battle and if they did, the "feats" you've showed me aren't 100% effective, if this were a fight where both characters were really trying, though it'd be a good fight goenitz has ways of countering the "feats" and seeing as the abilities used are effective (as far as game mechanics go) why will you still focus on a few scenes and panels? most of which are glamorized and are obscure at best? then why would you just assume these powerful attacks are full proof and work against any other opposing attack? the way you keep describing akuma is that he's just too fast, too strong, and powerful... when clearly even in his own story he isn't... he's up there... but isn't the strongest.. i'll agree that akuma's a better fighter, and stronger (physically) but more powerful? nah.. he has to strike at things to destroy them, he does that well, but even gouken never trans-located out of his reach... neither did gill... nor anyone else he's fought.. so given that goenitz has the abilities to counter if not evade and power to match... is what backs up my opinion... and I've used examples from the story and in game... not glamorized intro's and obscure endings and/or feats... so yeah...
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