Originally posted by Zeal Ex Nihilo
War is not murder.
Uh....actually, that is exactly what war is - "justified murder," to be exact.
Originally posted by Zeal Ex Nihilo
If you take verses out of context from the Bible without looking at the whole, then, yes, it would appear that war is against Christianity.
Uh....alright, how would you interpret the (IMHO) rather forthright teachings of the Christ?
BTW: Gah....I'm too tired to express my thoughts on the subject.
Originally posted by Melcórë
Uh....actually, that is exactly what war is - "justified murder," to be exact.
killing, yes, murder, no
"murder" is a legal term defined relative to the state which passes the law. "Justified murder" then becomes an oxymoron or moot, given that the justification for a murder is either irrelevant, or in the case of a murder in self defense, it changes the term. For instance, rarely will you hear it referred to as "murder in self defense".
This isn't a moral stand, this is a technical linguistic stand. It does no good to call war murder, since every other use of "murder" is incompatible with the nature of war. Much like how capital punishment is not technically murder.
Originally posted by inimalist
killing, yes, murder, no"murder" is a legal term defined relative to the state which passes the law. "Justified murder" then becomes an oxymoron or moot, given that the justification for a murder is either irrelevant, or in the case of a murder in self defense, it changes the term. For instance, rarely will you hear it referred to as "murder in self defense".
This isn't a moral stand, this is a technical linguistic stand. It does no good to call war murder, since every other use of "murder" is incompatible with the nature of war. Much like how capital punishment is not technically murder.
Is "murder" not qualified through "intent to kill"? That was where I was coming from....and by "justified murder," I then meant "intent to kill to protect one's nation, culture, etc."....although I s'pose it was a rather....foolish way to word things?
As I said....I don't feel like articulating my thoughts on the subject right now, and may thus appear incoherent or....well, not well-developed with regards my opinions.
Originally posted by Melcórë
Is "murder" not qualified through "intent to kill"? That was where I was coming from....and by "justified murder," I then meant "intent to kill to protect one's nation, culture, etc."....although I s'pose it was a rather....foolish way to word things?As I said....I don't feel like articulating my thoughts on the subject right now, and may thus appear incoherent or....well, not well-developed with regards my opinions.
LOL, no, murder is the unlawful act of killing (plus whatever legalese follows). When a state goes to war, the killing is no longer unlawful. There are many other considerations, but that is pretty much the big one.
I do understand the argument you are making, you are just using the wrong words. Its excusable because it is the same language that certain intellectuals use to talk down to the public and stifle proper debate, much like the "meat is murder" or "religion is child abuse" memes.
Originally posted by inimalist
LOL, no, murder is the unlawful act of killing (plus whatever legalese follows). When a state goes to war, the killing is no longer unlawful. There are many other considerations, but that is pretty much the big one.I do understand the argument you are making, you are just using the wrong words. Its excusable because it is the same language that certain intellectuals use to talk down to the public and stifle proper debate, much like the "meat is murder" or "religion is child abuse" memes.
So, in other words, I have a completely wrong take in what legally constitutes murder? LOL! 😂
*Goes out and buys a copy of the Criminal Code* 😛
BTW: "Excusable"?....Not at all....I was basing my opinion on (pretty much) my assumptions alone, which someone should never do.
BTW2: I certainly hope I don't argue in such a degrading and truly unintellectual manner....but it wouldn't surprise me, since (truth be told) I don't really care what people on the internet think of my opinions, and I'm thus likely to post biased/inarticulate/"wrong" statements....
Originally posted by Melcórë
So, in other words, I have a completely wrong take in what legally constitutes murder? LOL! 😂*Goes out and buys a copy of the Criminal Code* 😛
BTW: "Excusable"?....Not at all....I was basing my opinion on (pretty much) my assumptions alone, which someone should never do.
BTW2: I certainly hope I don't argue in such a degrading and truly unintellectual manner....but it wouldn't surprise me, since (truth be told) I don't really care what people on the internet think of my opinions, and I'm thus likely to post biased/inarticulate/"wrong" statements....
haha, don't get too worked up, the "excusable" remark was more of me trying to make a tongue in cheek jab against the leftist anti-war movement, which I am not saying you represent, just saying that I don't like their tactics.
You make a great point, and I don't think there are very many modern scholars who will speak of the glory of war and killing other humans. However, to say that it is "murder" just seems to oversimplify the situation.
Should every soldier be arrested and given 25 years per kill?
Originally posted by inimalistIn interest of this, the Hebrew language of the Bible does clearly distinguish between the two just as we do today. Different words for different intents.
LOL, no, murder is the unlawful act of killing (plus whatever legalese follows). When a state goes to war, the killing is no longer unlawful. There are many other considerations, but that is pretty much the big one.I do understand the argument you are making, you are just using the wrong words. Its excusable because it is the same language that certain intellectuals use to talk down to the public and stifle proper debate, much like the "meat is murder" or "religion is child abuse" memes.
Originally posted by Melcórë
Uh....actually, that is exactly what war is - "justified murder," to be exact.
Uh....alright, how would you interpret the (IMHO) rather forthright teachings of the Christ?BTW: Gah....I'm too tired to express my thoughts on the subject.
I'm taking into consideration the whole of the Bible; you are not. However, perhaps you'd like to clarify what exactly Jesus meant when he said:
"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to turn
'a man against his father,
a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law -
a man's enemies will be the members of his own household.'"
Originally posted by Nellinator
No, you just ignore the post because your assertions have no base in reality. Hence, you = fail.
tis easy for a person on the sidelines to say who might never have suffered the consequences of america's/israel's actions, not to mention, has a conveniently nice faith in the goodness of his relegion and the goodness of his country.
its nothing but a convenient lie so that you do not have to worry or feal guilty about the sorry state of affairs in the world outside your little utopian reality.
but words are cheap, that is sumthing i have learnt. people will use fallcious and lengthy debating tactics to go to any lengths to rationalise their close minded/wrong pooint of view. unless a person actually has any desire to be open minded/curiosity about truth outside dogma, then it is useless to talk. {jia being a testament, an lately, other beleivers/patriots i have met/talked with}.
Originally posted by Zeal Ex Nihilo
1. I don't care what the Pope did. I'm not Catholic. Also, "pronouncing a curse" on someone is a lot different than blowing oneself up on him.
Just as you fail for failing to see distinctions within the Islamic religion.
Originally posted by SpearofDestiny
Would you cure Cancer by causing more Cancer ?
You're the biggest retard on the forums.
And YES, (food for your barren mind), radiation therapy DOES induce the formation of secondary neoplasms, as do many chemotheraputic agents.
Originally posted by leonheartmmSo you have nothing. I expected as much. Your debating tactics involve only rhetoric. Therefore, they are not viable.
tis easy for a person on the sidelines to say who might never have suffered the consequences of america's/israel's actions, not to mention, has a conveniently nice faith in the goodness of his relegion and the goodness of his country.its nothing but a convenient lie so that you do not have to worry or feal guilty about the sorry state of affairs in the world outside your little utopian reality.
but words are cheap, that is sumthing i have learnt. people will use fallcious and lengthy debating tactics to go to any lengths to rationalise their close minded/wrong pooint of view. unless a person actually has any desire to be open minded/curiosity about truth outside dogma, then it is useless to talk. {jia being a testament, an lately, other beleivers/patriots i have met/talked with}.
Furthermore, you make more false claims and incorrect assumptions. I think my country is crap and going down the tube. Furthermore, I have invested interest in what goes on outside my own country, and my life is anything but an utopia, but thanks for playing.
Originally posted by Ushgarak
Just to clear this up- no there were not.
That is not what I had heard. However, I can't find anything on the web to substantiate my claim. Perhaps I should not have taken the Irishman's word for it.
Originally posted by Zeal Ex Nihilo
God has been fond of war in the past. I am doubtful that He has changed His views.Does that mean we're to glory in war? No, but to accuse Christians of "abandoning their principles" in fighting in war is erroneous.
Here's a fun fact: John describes Jesus as being the "Word" of God. Some theologians interpret this to mean that Jesus was the one communicating with man in the Old Testament. Therefore, Jesus was the one commanding the Israelites to slaughter and kill.
Oh, snap.
Okay. That's pretty weak. If you want to discuss god changing his mind, it can only be viable in regards to what he last said. I don't recall the verse where Jesus supported war...or murder. Your logic that god does/did change his mind doesn't speak very well to the claim that he is all-knowing and timeless. If god says one thing to one group of people, and means it at the time, and says another thing to another group of people, and means it at the time, then it's prefectly logical to assume that all religous disagreements are baseless. (Which they are) That would mean that god is to those people what they need him to be. And if God changes based on the needs of the people with which he's communicating, then god would be all things to all people. So, the concept of god is either flawed, or the fictional work of the people who worship him.
and let's get to the real subject of what I said: The number of christians in positions of power that abandon their religious "principles" when no one is looking or no one finds out about it. There is nothing erroneous about that.
Originally posted by Alliance
Just as you fail for failing to see distinctions within the Islamic religion.
You're the biggest retard on the forums.And YES, (food for your barren mind), radiation therapy DOES induce the formation of secondary neoplasms, as do many chemotheraputic agents.
Of course, to be fair to Urizen, he was asking if I would purposely induce cancer in healthy subjects in order to experiment on them so that I could cure cancer in other subjects.
Originally posted by Nellinator
So you have nothing. I expected as much. Your debating tactics involve only rhetoric. Therefore, they are not viable.Furthermore, you make more false claims and incorrect assumptions. I think my country is crap and going down the tube. Furthermore, I have invested interest in what goes on outside my own country, and my life is anything but an utopia, but thanks for playing.
no. i have a lot. but you will simply deny it based on that fact that these things do not happen in front of YOU, and based on the western medias{reguardless if its fox or bbc} version of the incidents which are taken as authentic. the things i have are hidden well on the international level, even if it is blatant truth at the national level.
right now, i am living in a country under martial law. where the right of gathering as well as all human rights are suspnded. where all of the opposition{thousands of people in high political posts} is in jails along with a few other family memebers. the courts have been dismissed as has the constitution. lawers are beaten up and jailed, human rights activists are beaten up and jailed{all by the police/rangers}.
telephones/cell phones/internet was completely cut for a day. ALL private news channels are unable to show. their owners/employees are threatened by kidnapping etc as well as laws which STOP them from reporting anyuthing detrimental to the government{among many MNAY other thigns}
all so that america's *****, musharraf can stay in power and slaughter thousands uponm thousands of his country men{men women and children} under the name of taking actions against TERRORISTS, in the war against terror. not to mention slaughter his army men too in the cross fire. remember the red mosque mister know it all, i live right infront of it. and if you had seen the things governments do to little children and teachers just to please america and kill "TERRORISTS" , youd loathe yourself for being an american{that i can ASSURE you}.
but ocourse, how can i make you beleive any of that, when the western media reports the number of deaths as between 108/180 when infact over 1800 children are OFFICIALLY confirmed dead here? as you can see, i shall have very little to offer you since you simply do not KNOW what the world is going through.
americas controls/manipulates half the world with corrupt politicians/puppet governments. {last time i checked, musharraf was given an over 4 billion dollar payoff in cash in his swiss bank acocunt. and that is just ONE which was found out among manty MANY other things. same with our other dear lady, benazir, 1.7 billions dollar payoff in her swiss bank account. ofcourse, the means of knowledge that you have will never state these facts}.
so keep living in your nice little world calling other people's claims false. your country is NOT going down anything yet, it is surviving pretty well economically on all the resources it drains from the rest of the world.{ofcourse, SOCIALLY its another thing}
{now be a nice american and call me a deluded conspiracy theorist who does not have the statistics/figures to back up his claims and go n have a nice self righteous nap}
Originally posted by Zeal Ex Nihilo
How do you know that you're not a victim of your country's own propaganda?
erm, MAYBE, because my country{as far as the government and state media goes} ADORES america. maybe because its openly letting america use it as a base to bomb the crap out of afghani civilians{actually been there and seen it} maybe because its rather happy calling all poor humans living in certain regions as terrorists, maybe because its media is very much pro america? maybe because my country's propaganda is PRO west. its only private news channels which report this stuff. fortunately i happen to be living in/going to a lot of the places where i can verify it first hand{or maybe because as luck wud have it, i happen to find myself in situations at the time when its actually HAPPENING, so no verification is required}
Originally posted by leonheartmmErmm, I find it hard to loathe myself for being an American.
no. i have a lot. but you will simply deny it based on that fact that these things do not happen in front of YOU, and based on the western medias{reguardless if its fox or bbc} version of the incidents which are taken as authentic. the things i have are hidden well on the international level, even if it is blatant truth at the national level.right now, i am living in a country under martial law. where the right of gathering as well as all human rights are suspnded. where all of the opposition{thousands of people in high political posts} is in jails along with a few other family memebers. the courts have been dismissed as has the constitution. lawers are beaten up and jailed, human rights activists are beaten up and jailed{all by the police/rangers}.
telephones/cell phones/internet was completely cut for a day. ALL private news channels are unable to show. their owners/employees are threatened by kidnapping etc as well as laws which STOP them from reporting anyuthing detrimental to the government{among many MNAY other thigns}
all so that america's *****, musharraf can stay in power and slaughter thousands uponm thousands of his country men{men women and children} under the name of taking actions against TERRORISTS, in the war against terror. not to mention slaughter his army men too in the cross fire. remember the red mosque mister know it all, i live right infront of it. and if you had seen the things governments do to little children and teachers just to please america and kill "TERRORISTS" , youd loathe yourself for being an american{that i can ASSURE you}.
but ocourse, how can i make you beleive any of that, when the western media reports the number of deaths as between 108/180 when infact over 1800 children are OFFICIALLY confirmed dead here? as you can see, i shall have very little to offer you since you simply do not KNOW what the world is going through.
americas controls/manipulates half the world with corrupt politicians/puppet governments. {last time i checked, musharraf was given an over 4 billion dollar payoff in cash in his swiss bank acocunt. and that is just ONE which was found out among manty MANY other things. same with our other dear lady, benazir, 1.7 billions dollar payoff in her swiss bank account. ofcourse, the means of knowledge that you have will never state these facts}.
so keep living in your nice little world calling other people's claims false. your country is NOT going down anything yet, it is surviving pretty well economically on all the resources it drains from the rest of the world.{ofcourse, SOCIALLY its another thing}
{now be a nice american and call me a deluded conspiracy theorist who does not have the statistics/figures to back up his claims and go n have a nice self righteous nap}