Darth Bane vs. AOTC Obi-Wan and Anakin

Originally posted by Ultra Omega
You refuse to argue it, because you can't. As always, you'll enter a thread, post an opinion, and leave. Now go home, and take your broken fingers with you.

Urgghh....It was people like this ^^^ that made me leave these forums like 6 months ago and not come back for a while. I'm seriously considering it again. I'll be honest, I got tired of justifying myself over and over to random noobs who refuse to even listen to anything anyways, its just wasted effort. Facts and reason have little influence on the likes of people like this. I applaud people like Gideon who somehow have the strength and motivation to say the same crap over and over to fact-less opinionated noobs who don't even listen to what you say...I dunno how you do it man.

Originally posted by kamhal
bla bla bla and he's clearly beyond Sidious.

"The Sith finally emerged from a thousand years of watching and waiting, their numbered in the accordance with the tradition set by Darth Bane, only two. The most powerful of these sith was Darth Sidious..."- The Darkside Sourcebook

'When the Sith finally emerged from a thousand years of watching and waiting, they numbered in accordance with the tradition set down by Darth Bane, only two. The most powerful of these was Darth Sidious, an ice-cold, diabolically calculating genius equipped with the strengths of the dark side of the Force, as well as an enormous wealth of Sith artifacts, equipment, and knowledge. Perhaps the best weapon in his arsenal was his keen understanding of galactic politics, and his seemingly unlimited ability to engineer situations that ultimately served to further empower the sith'

^That's the proper quote, and it proves nothing that weakens my case. When it's stated that "The most powerful of these sith was Darth Sidious," there is no indication given that it's referring to the entire Ro2 Order rather than the two current members, meaning, at best, it proves that Sidious is more powerful than Darth Maul... 😂

In fact, it doesn't even prove that, because in this context, "power" is quite clearly not personal combat power, given his manipulation skills and political knowledge are considered as some of his greatest weapons, not exactly anything to do with combat.

True, the quote is ambiguous, because "these" can either be talking about all bane's order or simply sidious and maul. None the less, this is only one of the quotes that proves Sidious as the strongest sith ever. Besides, did you notice that this was the only quote which you tried to properly answer? 😆

Incorrect, Omega (and continuing to subscribe to such logic further proves, as each day passes, that you are Nebaris. You quoted him verbatim).

Courtesy of Publius:

"The most powerful of these" refers to the Sith Lords of the Sith Order, descending from Darth Bane. To suggest that it refers only to Darth Sidious and Darth Maul requires a certain level of willful ignorance of the English language. If Sidious and Maul are the only Sith Lords being described, then they would have also spent the previous thousand years watching and waiting. This is a highly dubious contention.

The Dark Side Sourcebook does not attribute the ability to conjure Force storms to the Imperial Sith. The ability "Summon Storms" refers strictly to meteorological phenomena, and is attributed to generic dark side witches and to the Nightsisters Gethzerion and Tamith Kai. Vague citations such as "the sourcebooks" are hardly fit for serious discourse. If no specific citation is offered in support of a claim, that claim does not merit consideration.

Although Imperial Sith are noted for their longevity, their parochialism makes them significantly less impressive. A Jen'ari of the Sith Empire may well have ruled for hundreds of years on end, but he ruled only a few hundred primitive worlds in the galactic periphery, far from any potential rivals (The Dark Side Sourcebook even points out that Marka Ragnos "believed the Sith were not yet ready to enter into a protracted war with the forces of the Republic"; The Fall of the Sith Empire shows clearly that these 'enormously powerful' Sith Lords were defeated by the Republic). In contrast, Darth Sidious seized control of the vast majority of the galaxy, and built up an extraordinarily powerful galactic superpower that ruled billions of worlds (The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, Second Edition - Revised and Expanded). He orchestrated the complete destruction of the Jedi Order, which out-numbered his Sith Order by a factor of roughly 5,000 to 1. Judging by political standards, Palpatine was vastly more powerful than any of his potential rivals.

In terms of preternatural abilities, the only way to compare them is to judge them by their deeds. Simus was able to survive as a disembodied head for 100 years (The Golden Age of the Sith); Palpatine was able to survive complete corporeal destruction and travel thousands of light years from Endor to Kaal (Return of the Jedi, "The Emperor's Pawns," Dark Empire Sourcebook). The ancient Sith Lords developed a means of allowing their ghosts to possess the bodies of the living via having their hosts lay in custom-made sarcophagi ("The Sith Compendium"😉; Palpatine possessed the body of Jeng Droga completely unaided ("The Kaal Connection," "The Emperor's Pawns"😉, repeatedly reincarnated in the bodies of clones, also unaided (Dark Empire, Dark Empire II), and was very likely able to possess the body of Anakin Solo unaided (Empire's End).

As noted earlier, Palpatine was struck squarely on the head by a ton of machinery, and shrugged it off (Dark Empire, Star Wars Handbook Vol. 3: Dark Empire). He was capable of moving so quickly that the eye could not track him (Episode I Journal: Darth Maul). He created a hyperspace wormhole and projected a Force storm from Byss to Coruscant, and displayed sufficient fine control to physically translate Skywalker from the planet's surface to the hold of a Lictor dungeon ship (Dark Empire). In a matter of seconds he summoned a Force storm and destroyed at least five capital ships, and accidentally destroyed two Star Destroyers and a Super Star Destroyer when he lost his concentration (Dark Empire). He was able to feel immediate danger to Darth Vader on Mustafar in the Outer Rim while still on Coruscant (Revenge of the Sith), and could communicate telepathically over vast interstellar distances ("Sleight of Hand: The Tale of Mara Jade"😉.

There is a distinct difference between the Sith Lords of the Sith Empire (e.g., Marka Ragnos, Naga Sadow, and Ludo Kressh) and the Sith Lords of the Sith Order (e.g., Darth Sidious, Darth Maul, and Darth Tyranus)."Taken by Force" (Star Wars Galaxy Magazine #8 specifically notes the following:

[QUOTE]Get one thing straight: The dark side of the Force and Sith magic are not interchangeable, and the comics have made a firm distinction between the two. "The Sith and their abilities were hinted at in Tales of the Jedi and Kevin J. Anderson's Jedi Academy trilogy," Cooper says. "There was a connection with Exar Kun, who was Force-adept and had a strong will to seek out Sith knowledge. Kun added his knowledge of Sith magic to his arsenal of weapons."

The most impressive feats of the Imperial Sith -- such as Naga Sadow's cruiser causing major stellar catastrophes -- were wholly dependent on the use of artifacts and talismans (hence the ease with which Exar Kun was able to master Sithian magic, to say nothing of completely unskilled practitioners like Satal Keto, Aleema, and the Krath). They were invariably seen wearing such magical accouterments. Any given display of preternatural abilities is tainted by the fact that the Sith Lords were actively using Sithian magic, which required no effort at all to use (The Freedon Nadd Uprising).

It is worth pointing out that although Sidious is not known to have used any such arcana when performing his own feats of Force mastery, he was exceptionally well-versed on dark side lore and was a known master of Sith magic (the Dark Empire Sourcebook notes that he had long ago mastered the knowledge of the Krath, who were strictly Sith magicians). He was an accomplished alchemist and is known to have been in possession of a number of ancient Sithian artifacts, as well as having traveled to several of the 'holy sites' of the Imperial Sith (Drommund Kaas, Vorzyd V, Yavin IV, Ziost, and Korriban). He was familiar with their methods -- and generally did not use them.

It is not enough to merely assert superiority and then expect to be disproven. One has an obligation to provide evidence to support one's claims. There is no reason to believe that an of the Imperial Sith were more powerful than Darth Sidious. If one is to claim otherwise, one is of course required to provide clear evidence. If specifically comparing physical abilities, then one must be able to cite discrete incidents.[/QUOTE]

In fact, it doesn't even prove that, because in this context, "power" is quite clearly not personal combat power, given his manipulation skills and political knowledge are considered as some of his greatest weapons, not exactly anything to do with combat.

Prove it. His ability to manipulate others and his understanding of galactic politics is listed as "perhaps" his greatest weapon, and does not exclude his combat skills.

Publius?

Originally posted by Darth Hord
Publius?

Yessir. No one I have encountered can compete with that man.

Originally posted by Gideon
Yessir. No one I have encountered can compete with that man.

I have to ready it a few times to fully understand him. Is this the article that you mentioned a while back that would destroy any pro-ancient sith arguement?

Originally posted by Darth Hord
I have to ready it a few times to fully understand him. Is this the article that you mentioned a while back that would destroy any pro-ancient sith arguement?

Yessir.

Incorrect, Omega (and continuing to subscribe to such logic further proves, as each day passes, that you are Nebaris. You quoted him verbatim).

Not incorrect, no, and I thought you'd drop this whole trying to prove that I'm Nebaris mission you guys are on? Please don't go back on your word.

"The most powerful of these" refers to the Sith Lords of the Sith Order, descending from Darth Bane. To suggest that it refers only to Darth Sidious and Darth Maul requires a certain level of willful ignorance of the English language. If Sidious and Maul are the only Sith Lords being described, then they would have also spent the previous thousand years watching and waiting. This is a highly dubious contention.

Who are you quoting from? Whoever it is, s/he is wrong, and is the one being willfully ignorant of the English Language.

When the Sith finally emerged from a thousand years of watching and waiting, they numbered in accordance with the tradition set down by Darth Bane, only two.

There are two interpretations of what the "these" refers to.

1. This is essentially your approach, where you treat the "Sith" as the entire millennium old Order as what the "these" refers to, with the text that appears afterwards as simply describing into detail the current Sith, though not placing the focus onto them.

This is certainly a valid interpretation behind it, but not the only one.

2. This is essentially mine, where I'd conclude that the "these" refers to the then current two Sith Lords.

a) "When the Sith finally emerged" - quite clearly referring to Sidious and his apprentice, Maul.

b) "from a thousand years of watching and waiting" - not necessarily meaning that the emerged Sith themselves had been watching and waiting for thousands of years, but that they finally revealed themselves after such an amount of hiding and waiting had taken place, in this case clearly on part of the Ro2 Sith as a whole.

c) "they numbered in accordance with the tradition set down by Darth Bane, only two." - again, going back to describe the then current two Sith, rather than the entire Order as a whole.

Essentially, to interpret that the "these" might refer to the current two Sith is a valid approach, as long as the burden of proof isn't on me, which it isn't.

As for the rest, that's another topic in itself which I have no interest with arguing right now.

Prove it. His ability to manipulate others and his understanding of galactic politics is listed as "perhaps" his greatest weapon, and does not exclude his combat skills.

I probably should have elaborated more, but when I said that power, in this case, wasn't personal combat power, I meant that it wasn't solely personal combat prowess. I wasn't, and wouldn't deny that it was inclusive, on some level, of such power, given the quote makes a direct reference to his power in the darkside. But, it makes a bigger reference to his intellectual qualities, which would indicate that power, in this case, would include the non martial aspects as well.

To further add to the argument for Sidious is this from the star wars databank on Yoda .

Inside the spacious interior of the Galactic Senate chambers, Yoda challenged the Emperor. The two entered into a spectacular duel -- a contest between the most powerful practitioners of the Force's light and dark sides. The Emperor proved too powerful to defeat

And this is by ROTS not DE.

You've only demonstrated that as considerable as your grammar and English prowess is, you don't compare to Publius. He's right. The "after a thousand years of waiting" clearly refers to the Order as a whole.

Yes, but what Publius is saying is that the entire focus of the first sentence being on the then current Sith Master and Apprentice would be incorrect, because then we'd also have to assume that they had been watching and waiting for a thousand years, when that's simply not the case. The "from a thousand years of watching and waiting" doesn't necessarily mean that the watching and waiting was done on the part of the specific Sith in question, just that the two Sith emerged after a thousand of years of watching and waiting had taken place (in this case on the part of the Ro2 Sith Order as a whole).

Although the modern era of the Sith is attributed to Darth Bane, and the Dark Jedi that preceded him, - the Sith (e.u). section on the star wars databank.

He is the most powerful practitioner of the Sith ways in modern times-from the Palpatine (e.u.) section of the star wars databank.

Sidious IS >Bane

The modern era of Sith =/= modern times. That's the fundamental point that disproves your argument, and the fundamental point that you're missing, though I will say those were some nice observations.

Given that Bane's passing essentially marked the point in time where the Republic and Galaxy no longer believed themselves threatened by the Sith (in the TPM novelisation, Mace Windu mentions that since the fall of Bane, the Sith had been extinct, meaning the Jedi must have come into contact with him), and it marked an era of peace from the darkside, Bane can be considered not a part of the modern times that the Movies explored.

Originally posted by Ultra Omega
The modern era of Sith =/= modern times. That's the fundamental point that disproves your argument, and the fundamental point that you're missing, though I will say those were some nice observations.

Glad you like the observations
From dictionary.com

era --period of time marked by distinctive character, events, etc.:

time--a period in the history of the world, or contemporary with the life or activities of a notable person: the period or era now or previously present. furthermore a synonym for era is time(s).

Never heard of prehistoric times or prehistoric era, time of the dinsoaurs-era of the dinosaurs. Same meaning

They have the same meaning here. Seeing as how one could be switched for the other. The notable person or distinct character here is Bane and the period is the time (or era) of the sith

Given that Bane's passing essentially marked the point in time where the Republic and Galaxy no longer believed themselves threatened by the Sith (in the TPM novelisation, Mace Windu mentions that since the fall of Bane, the Sith had been extinct, meaning the Jedi must have come into contact with him), and it marked an era of peace from the darkside, Bane can be considered not a part of the modern times that the Movies explored.

And to support that times and era can be used for the exact same thing and be interchangeable based on the grammar and the structure of the sentence and I will do it with your statement.

It marked an era of peace from the darkside

I wasn't claiming that there would be a difference in the meanings of 'times' and 'era,' I'm saying that the Sith's modern era isn't the same period as what would be considered modern times. As you yourself point out, the meaning of "modern" generally differs with how much time has passed, and given that the Sith had only been around for several millenia, whereas time itself was millions of years old, the meaning of "modern" for the two periods would differ.

As for claiming that what I said was just an opinion, sure it was, but a valid one, and what I'm essentially saying is that you can't prove that Bane would belong to what is referred to as the modern times. As long as the burden of proof isn't on me, valid opinion is fine on my part. I'm essentially pointing out the holes in your argument.

Point is, you can't prove that Bane belongs to the modern times that are mentioned, meaning those quotes prove nothing.

Edit - Also, even if none of that were true, a word like "modern" is very ambiguous in meaning, given the number of interpretations of what is modern, and how you would judge it. For instance, one might consider science the factor that separates what is modern or not, whereas others might consider the factor to be art. A word like "modern" isn't always necessarily going to be used in the same way.

You are right the word "modern" is ambiguous and the sith era and time of the galaxy is vastly different. And we could go for along "time" or for an "era" 😛

But I been wondering for a while now why you have this belief that sidious is not the most powerful when there are many canon quotes(I personally have about 12 quotes to support it) that support the consensus, while you may argue what the meaning is there quotes are still canon while every other sith lord has no canon quotes that say they are the most powerful sith lord ever? Wouldn't seem based on the quotes in sidious's favor and there 0 zero quotes for any other sith lord that the writer's (who's work have lucas's seal of approval) have the same thing in mind. I mean you can try to interpret them anyway you like but the main points of the quotes still have wors like Sidious,most powerful,sith,ever in the same sentence me anything to you.Like it seems with some quotes you try to get the technical terms and read deep inside them for what would seem to be a loophole. I'm not trying to be disrespectful but rather than I am trying to a getter a better perspective on where you are coming from.

A precise observation that has me flummoxed as well. It's not that I disapprove or despise that you disagree with the canon-approved consensus that Darth Sidious is the most powerful Sith Lord ever (God made the "enlightened decision" to grant us all the ability to speak our opinions), rather than the logic behind it. You've yet to provide a single shred of proof that any Sith Lord is above Sidious -- especially when any one of us can use the "absence of proof" clause to sweep that aside -- and rather prefer to try to attack the canon-approved quotes with the ambiguity card or use double standards. I don't play like that.

Originally posted by Darth Hord
You are right the word "modern" is ambiguous and the sith era and time of the galaxy is vastly different. And we could go for along "time" or for an "era" 😛

But I been wondering for a while now why you have this belief that sidious is not the most powerful when there are many canon quotes(I personally have about 12 quotes to support it) that support the consensus, while you may argue what the meaning is there quotes are still canon while every other sith lord has no canon quotes that say they are the most powerful sith lord ever? Wouldn't seem based on the quotes in sidious's favor and there 0 zero quotes for any other sith lord that the writer's (who's work have lucas's seal of approval) have the same thing in mind. I mean you can try to interpret them anyway you like but the main points of the quotes still have wors like Sidious,most powerful,sith,ever in the same sentence me anything to you.Like it seems with some quotes you try to get the technical terms and read deep inside them for what would seem to be a loophole. I'm not trying to be disrespectful but rather than I am trying to a getter a better perspective on where you are coming from.

To be honest, I just don't like Sidious... like one bit, otherwise I probably wouldn't look for ways to disprove these quotes, but the fact of the matter is, that these quotes aren't conclusive, not one of them, and imho, you have other Sith who display greater power, being the more powerful Ancients, Nadd, Exar, Nihilus, Sion, and Bane, and of course Darth Caedus. Don't get me wrong, Sidious is extremely powerful, and the next most powerful Sith after those that I mentioned, imo, but those Sith, as well as some Jedi (well two actually: Luke Skywalker and Kyp Durron) as well as some beings that belong to neither group (UnuThul, Lomi Plo, Sekot, and Lord Nyax) are clearly more powerful based on evidence on hand.

Personally, I think Sidious' ability to cloud the force on a scale where all Jedi had difficulty seeing through it speaks volumes. As does his lightning attack that wiped out hundreds of Stormtroopers. His knowledge of the force is certainly immense, as well, as was his power given it had reached a stage where it had become too much for his body to contain properly. He's very powerful, and also near definitely the greatest Sith to ever exist. But he's not the most powerful Sith to ever exist, given the evidence we have, and I think it's silly that the entire forum pretty much views it as an undeniable fact.

Originally posted by Ultra Omega
To be honest, I just don't like Sidious... like one bit, otherwise I probably wouldn't look for ways to disprove these quotes, but the fact of the matter is, that these quotes aren't conclusive, not one of them, and imho, you have other Sith who display greater power, being the more powerful Ancients, Nadd, Exar, Nihilus, Sion, and Bane, and of course Darth Caedus. Don't get me wrong, Sidious is extremely powerful, and the next most powerful Sith after those that I mentioned, imo, but those Sith, as well as some Jedi (well two actually: Luke Skywalker and Kyp Durron) as well as some beings that belong to neither group (UnuThul, Lomi Plo, Sekot, and Lord Nyax) are clearly more powerful based on evidence on hand.

Personally, I think Sidious' ability to cloud the force on a scale where all Jedi had difficulty seeing through it speaks volumes. As does his lightning attack that wiped out hundreds of Stormtroopers. His knowledge of the force is certainly immense, as well, as was his power given it had reached a stage where it had become too much for his body to contain properly. He's very powerful, and also near definitely the greatest Sith to ever exist. But he's not the most powerful Sith to ever exist, given the evidence we have, and I think it's silly that the entire forum pretty much views it as an undeniable fact.

I wouldn't say that aren't conclusive such as these ones.

Essential Chronology: "the most powerful Sith who had ever lived, Emperor Palpatine had returned from the grave."
Page 109 from the Dark Empire sourcebook:-"Palpatine has risen from the dead. The most powerful Sith Lord who ever lived had returned."
"...Yoda could not defeat the most powerful Sith Lord in history."

They are all from canon sources(NeC,DSB,star wars databank,DES etc.) and if they were not intended to mean what they would have been been deemed noncannon further it makes sense that all of these quote exist for him and state such while they are nonexistent for any other sith. It seems if Lucas did not agree with the statement he would have not let them be published or he would have stated that they are not canon. But since he did not it is only logical to assume that they are in fact canon and conclusive > Besides wouldn't make sense that the main antagonist from the movie is more powerful than eu characters that are from other authors. No matter how much you dislike Sidious you can't deny that Sidious has the quotes that back to back him up while no other sith have anything similar stated about them. Believe I am not Sidious's biggest fan nor will I ever will be but I do not deny that there are canon quotes that say he is the "most powerful sith lord in history" No loopholes were even suggested by the authors when they were made like you saying "oh that is just political power" because where some of them are mentioned there is no reference to politics near them. And if you do keep this up then there will a few of who will be their argue.