Darth Bane vs. AOTC Obi-Wan and Anakin

Essential Chronology: "the most powerful Sith who had ever lived, Emperor Palpatine had returned from the grave."
Page 109 from the Dark Empire sourcebook:-"Palpatine has risen from the dead. The most powerful Sith Lord who ever lived had returned."

Neither of those quotes exist -- I actually have both sources on my PC in PDF format and I just used the search function, and neither quote exist in the mentioned sources.

If Galactus is the one who originally claimed that these statements were made, well, he strikes me as the type to lie on this forum, and this would seem especially likely given how similar the two quotes are. I mean seriously, they're both essentially the same claims; the only difference being the two clauses are at the opposite pats of the sentence, and the wording is slightly different. It's a blatant lie.

"...Yoda could not defeat the most powerful Sith Lord in history."

NEC is in-universe, and thus subject to being inaccurate. The statement isn't coming from an Omniscient Narrator, but is basically an opinion from a Historian within the SW universe. Not canon, just an in-universe opinion.

As for most of the quotes in general, I'm not actually arguing the canonicity of them (exception being the NEC), but the meaning in the quotes, not to mention that GL claims not to even read most of the EU, so he'd hardly be looking out for random quotes and declare them non-canon. It's not exactly uncommon for EU to differ with GL's vision - the Sith themselves heavily contradict GL's vision of Darth Bane being the original Sith.

As for Sidious being a key character in the main SW story, that really doesn't mean anything. I'm sure some might like to consider him the most powerful Sith ever, based on that alone, including writers and GL himself, but based on Canon evidence, a case can't really be absolutely argued.

Also, for the record, this quote makes a direct reference to Papatine's political knowledge, intellect, and manipulation ability, and even labels the qualities as his weapons:

'When the Sith finally emerged from a thousand years of watching and waiting, they numbered in accordance with the tradition set down by Darth Bane, only two. The most powerful of these was Darth Sidious, an ice-cold, diabolically calculating genius equipped with the strengths of the dark side of the Force, as well as an enormous wealth of Sith artifacts, equipment, and knowledge. Perhaps the best weapon in his arsenal was his keen understanding of galactic politics, and his seemingly unlimited ability to engineer situations that ultimately served to further empower the sith.'

BTW, out of curiosity, let's say we ignore these quotes and such, and base everything on showings; would you still consider him the most powerful Sith Lord in history? Of course, taking into account that the Force Storm can't be applied in a one-on-one scenario, can be used by Freedon Nadd and the Ancient Sith, and doesn't speak for a being's power in the force.

It's clearly the message LFL wants to send. The fact that he's succeeded where every single other Sith failed seems to make it pretty evident that the dark side was with him in ways it wasn't with others.

That would make for an interesting argument, but you really just can't discount the many statements that attribute what Sidious was able to achieve, in part, to the merits of Bane's Rule of Two. Sidious was able to learn from a millennium's worth of Sith teachings and their wisdom, and act off of that as best as he could. Sith like Bane never had such an advantage, and Sith like Nihilus had no such goal in the first place.

Originally posted by Ultra Omega
That would make for an interesting argument, but you really just can't discount the many statements that attribute what Sidious was able to achieve, in part, to the merits of Bane's Rule of Two. Sidious was able to learn from a millennium's worth of Sith teachings and their wisdom, and act off of that as best as he could. Sith like Bane never had such an advantage, and Sith like Nihilus had no such goal in the first place.

For the last time Noobaris, every one of your arguments have been defeated. Sidious IS the most powerful sith lord ever with MORE than enough canon sources to name him as such, along with the ancient sith who did the same thing. Now if you want to verbally fellate Bane like you always do, and attribute Sidious' success to the rule of two (which played a smalled part but the real impact had to do with Sidious' personality and power), then I'm going to go one step further and attribute the rule of two to Revan. Without him, Bane wouldn't have figured out shit, so if Bane gets credit, then Revan gets more credit.

Originally posted by Ultra Omega
That would make for an interesting argument, but you really just can't discount the many statements that attribute what Sidious was able to achieve, in part, to the merits of Bane's Rule of Two. Sidious was able to learn from a millennium's worth of Sith teachings and their wisdom, and act off of that as best as he could. Sith like Bane never had such an advantage, and Sith like Nihilus had no such goal in the first place.

An interesting argument? Not really. A fundamental theme to Star Wars is the subject of destiny: Sidious succeeded because he was better than those who came before him. Several sources indicate that he was a true nexus of dark side energy, so that's one "advantage". The second advantage is that he was cleverer and more calculating than any of them as well. Trying to credit Bane for Sidious's victory is useless. If so, we'd have to credit Einstein's teachers and inspirations for his advancements in physics. Ultimately, the feats were due to the individual's merit, not the will of the ones they might have learned from. Bane was also a recepticle of dark side knowledge and he couldn't get the job done. Neither could Revan or Ragnos. And as for Nihilus, you'd be amazed at how similar Palpatine truly is to Nihilus.

Originally posted by Gideon
An interesting argument? Not really.

To each his own.

A fundamental theme to Star Wars is the subject of destiny:

LMAO, if you truly want to bring destiny into this, then you have no argument, given that Bane is quite clearly the Sith's very own Chosen One, the Sith'ari, and as far as the darkside was concerned, he's fully credited with achieving what Palpatine essentially triggered.

Either way, you've in no way substantiated how Palpatine achieving, what he essentially does through intellect, means that the dark side was with him like no other Sith before him. Try doing that.

Sidious succeeded because he was better than those who came before him.

Your opinion, which is completely lacking in logic.

Several sources indicate that he was a true nexus of dark side energy, so that's one "advantage".

If you're referring to the "event horizon...darkness beyond darkness...black hole of the force" quote, than that's no different than Revan's "Heart of the Force" quote. Both, are quite clearly metaphors. You wouldn't claim that Revan was a nexus of force energy, so don't do the same with Sidious.

The second advantage is that he was cleverer and more calculating than any of them as well.

Cleverer, I disagree. Bane's learning rate is displayed as being phenomenal, for instance mastering force lightning in less than an hour, and his destruction of the BoD certainly rivals Sidious' destruction of the Jedi order, the main difference being Bane was able to do it in less than a year rather than having to spend decades like Sidious. Add in his implementation of the Ro2, and I'd say bane's the smartest being explored in SW canon.

Trying to credit Bane for Sidious's victory is useless. If so, we'd have to credit Einstein's teachers and inspirations for his advancements in physics.

As usual, you're missing my point. I said that Sidious' accomplishments were in part due to Bane's Ro2. I didn't say that Bane gets all the credit, no, that's what you're trying to do with Sidious.

Just like with your example; Einstein in no way receives all of the credit, but to deny that he played a part in the advancements today would be ludicrous.

Ultimately, the feats were due to the individual's merit, not the will of the ones they might have learned from.

However, you can't deny that Sidious was in a better position to achieve such things than others before him.

Bane was also a recepticle of dark side knowledge and he couldn't get the job done.

LMAO. Bane received a little knowledge from Revan, Nadd and the limited information within the Korriban Academy's archives. This compares to Sidious' millennium's worth of gathered knowledge and wisdom.. how?

Neither could Revan

Who cares about fecking Revan?

or Ragnos.

The Ancient Sith actually didn't know the location of the Republic: a huge obstacle that Sidious didn't share.

And as for Nihilus, you'd be amazed at how similar Palpatine truly is to Nihilus.

...I'm sure I would. 😕

Now, back to my point, my reason for bringing him up is because Nihilus cared for one thing, and one thing only: his hunger. Absolutely destroying the Jedi wasn't a goal of his, it just happened to tie in with his actual goal, which was sustaining his hunger by feeding off of large amounts of force energy.

Originally posted by Ultra Omega
To each his own.

LMAO, if you truly want to bring destiny into this, then you have no argument, given that Bane is quite clearly the Sith's very own Chosen One, the Sith'ari, and as far as the darkside was concerned, he's fully credited with achieving what Palpatine essentially triggered.

Either way, you've in no way substantiated how Palpatine achieving, what he essentially does through intellect, means that the dark side was with him like no other Sith before him. Try doing that.

Your opinion, which is completely lacking in logic.

Cleverer, I disagree. Bane's learning rate is displayed as being phenomenal, for instance mastering force lightning in less than an hour, and his destruction of the BoD certainly rivals Sidious' destruction of the Jedi order, the main difference being Bane was able to do it in less than a year rather than having to spend decades like Sidious. Add in his implementation of the Ro2, and I'd say bane's the smartest being explored in SW canon.

As usual, you're missing my point. I said that Sidious' accomplishments were in part due to Bane's Ro2. I didn't say that Bane gets all the credit, no, that's what you're trying to do with Sidious.

However, you can't deny that Sidious was in a better position to achieve such things than others before him.

The Ancient Sith actually didn't know the location of the Republic: a huge obstacle that Sidious didn't share.

Quit butting in on debates that do not concern you. If you wish to have a conversation with me, reply to my post in this thread.

As your superior in every way, shape, and form, I have every reason to butt in and embarass you further, in hopes that you cease posting.

This entire diatribe you posted is the epitome of bullshit, Nebaris. You defy the standards I set before you on a daily basis. As if the constant deception about your identity isn't pathetic enough, you resort to using the equally horrific double standard as your primary line of defense? Bullshit. I don't debate like that and I won't debate with someone who does. It's asinine, it's immature, and it's a betrayal of what intellect you claim to have. Lightsnake, Darth Sexy, and everyone else who has ever read your arguments reiterate to me how absolutely retarded you are and how frustrated they are that I actually take the time to argue the cases with you. I'm beginning to see what they see.

Originally posted by Ultra Omega
LMAO, if you truly want to bring destiny into this, then you have no argument, given that Bane is quite clearly the Sith's very own Chosen One, the Sith'ari,

Bullshit #1:

a.) You've made the claim that Darth Bane is "the Sith's Chosen One!!1!" and you've yet to prove it at all. Hell, all you've managed to do is place him as a mere contender. You haven't provided sources, statements, or events that name him as such, and yet you have the audacity to say that he's "quite clearly" the Sith'ari and that we should universally accept it? Not likely to happen soon.

b.) Tell me, exactly, what being the "Sith's Chosen One!!1!" means, anyways. You've mentioned that he'd be "perfect". Clearly it's a hyperbole since he died without 1.) destroying the Jedi. 2.) destroying the Republic. 3.) died at all.

and as far as the darkside was concerned, he's fully credited with achieving what Palpatine essentially triggered.

Tall claim. Prove it, since he clearly didn't achieve half of what the Emperor has done.

Either way, you've in no way substantiated how Palpatine achieving, what he essentially does through intellect, means that the dark side was with him like no other Sith before him. Try doing that.

I could probably drown you in the canon-approved, pro-Palpatine quotes and statements. The one from the Dark Side Sourcebook works nicely as does this:

"The Sith have waited a millennium for the birth of one who is powerful enough to return them from hiding. Darth Sidious is that one -- the Sith's revenge on the Jedi order for having nearly eradicated the practitioners of the dark side of the Force."
-- Complete Visual Dictionary, page 194.

Notice how Darth Bane isn't so much as a footnote.

Your opinion, which is completely lacking in logic.

If by "lacking in logic" you really mean "canonically supported in a manner far beyond that of my own", yes, I'd agree.

If you're referring to the "event horizon...darkness beyond darkness...black hole of the force" quote, than that's no different than Revan's "Heart of the Force" quote. Both, are quite clearly metaphors. You wouldn't claim that Revan was a nexus of force energy, so don't do the same with Sidious.

Except, as the omniscient narrator states, Palpatine is being viewed through "the eyes of the dark side itself".

The eyes of the dark side > a blind, bitter woman.

Cleverer, I disagree. Bane's learning rate is displayed as being phenomenal, for instance mastering force lightning in less than an hour, and his destruction of the BoD certainly rivals Sidious' destruction of the Jedi order, the main difference being Bane was able to do it in less than a year rather than having to spend decades like Sidious. Add in his implementation of the Ro2, and I'd say bane's the smartest being explored in SW canon.

a.) Sadly, Palpatine accomplished three things: 1.) the destruction of the Republic. 2.) the collapse of the Jedi order. 3.) the establishment of the most powerful military regime in history with himself at its head. Bane's? Ah, yes. He wiped out a couple hundred cowardly Sith Lords and... spent the rest of his life in hiding? Yes, I can see how he compares.

b.) The main difference is that Sidious actually succeeded in something much more impressive.

c.) Ah, yes. The vaunted Rule of Two clearly makes up for any disparity in accomplishments on Bane's part. Shitty logic, Nebaris. It's no wonder people lose patience with you.

As usual, you're missing my point. I said that Sidious' accomplishments were in part due to Bane's Ro2. I didn't say that Bane gets all the credit, no, that's what you're trying to do with Sidious.

As usual, you're not making a point. Sidious gets all the credit because he did all of the work. Hell, Maul, Vader, and Dooku came closer to galactic conquest than Bane.

Just like with your example; Einstein in no way receives all of the credit, but to deny that he played a part in the advancements today would be ludicrous.

He played the greatest part, which is why he's Einstein and a household name for genius.

However, you can't deny that Sidious was in a better position to achieve such things than others before him.

He was in a better position because he was smarter. When you prove that Bane set it up where Palpatine was born emperor of the galaxy or a senator on Naboo or a chancellor of the Republic, we'll talk. 😉

LMAO. Bane received a little knowledge from Revan, Nadd and the limited information within the Korriban Academy's archives. This compares to Sidious' millennium's worth of gathered knowledge and wisdom.. how?

Received a "little knowledge" from Revan and Nadd? Rofl. This suits my argument even better because now you admit that Sidious > Bane in knowledge.

Who cares about fecking Revan?

Well, let's see. If we use your logic, Revan created the Rule of Two. Hell, it wasn't even an original concept. Revan came up with the idea, Bane scribbled it down on a holocron and quoted it verbatim. Great Sith indeed.

^ This is why you need to abandon such shitty logic.

The Ancient Sith actually didn't know the location of the Republic: a huge obstacle that Sidious didn't share.

Marka Ragnos knew all about the Republic, see the Essential Guide to the Force. This is a Sith Lord who is also fellated for his cunning and intellect, and even he knew -- with their own damn empire -- that they couldn't take on the Republic. Sidious's predicament? He was literally all by his fvcking self in a time when Jedi were dominant. He worked himself up into a position on his own merit and conquered the whole damn thing on his own plans and "brilliant manipulation". So, we know Ragnos (an intelligent and powerful Sith Lord) and his army couldn't get it done, as neither did Revan (an intelligent and powerful Sith Lord) -- who also had an army. Yet Sidious did.

...I'm sure I would. 😕

Now, back to my point, my reason for bringing him up is because Nihilus cared for one thing, and one thing only: his hunger. Absolutely destroying the Jedi wasn't a goal of his, it just happened to tie in with his actual goal, which was sustaining his hunger by feeding off of large amounts of force energy.

Have you read DE, DESB, or the DSSB? Palpatine's ultimate plans? Guess not. You're mocking out of ignorance and it is most unbecoming.

Raise your game or get the hell out of the court, Nebaris. This some of the slimiest reasoning I've ever encountered and I expected better.

You expected better? Please. Every argument from Noobaris is a carbon copy from the previous one.

Originally posted by Ultra Omega
[b]Essential Chronology: "the most powerful Sith who had ever lived, Emperor Palpatine had returned from the grave."
Page 109 from the Dark Empire sourcebook:-"Palpatine has risen from the dead. The most powerful Sith Lord who ever lived had returned."

Neither of those quotes exist -- I actually have both sources on my PC in PDF format and I just used the search function, and neither quote exist in the mentioned sources.

If Galactus is the one who originally claimed that these statements were made, well, he strikes me as the type to lie on this forum, and this would seem especially likely given how similar the two quotes are. I mean seriously, they're both essentially the same claims; the only difference being the two clauses are at the opposite pats of the sentence, and the wording is slightly different. It's a blatant lie.

[/B]

Hell ask lightsnake for a scan or if you claim im lieing.

Originally posted by Gideon
This entire diatribe you posted is the epitome of bullshit, Nebaris.

No, the epitome of bullshit, would be you pretending to have, and end up doing, essentially, what you were describing as a Two Wrongs Make One Right fallacy, in our last debate to attempt to hide the fact that you couldn't counter my arguments, nor present your own valid ones. There was a reason why I stopped replying to you in that debate, and it's because your replies were starting to gt so low as to be on Galactus' level. Try to keep them higher this time.

You defy the standards I set before you on a daily basis.

What standards exactly? Not understanding how the burden of proof works? Not understanding the concept of ambiguity? Two things, you, apparently, have no idea about.

Now Gideon, one of the reasons I respect you more than most on here is for your honesty, so please, be honest. The real reason for your evident anger here is because in the matter of days I've pretty much debunked what is according to you two year's worth of Pro Sidious arguments.

Be honest, and I'll continue respecting you.

As if the constant deception about your identity isn't pathetic enough,

Again, you've become a broken record. Now you said you'd stop bringing this up, so stop bringing this up. Going back on your word is what's pathetic here.

you resort to using the equally horrific double standard as your primary line of defense? Bullshit. I don't debate like that and I won't debate with someone who does. It's asinine, it's immature, and it's a betrayal of what intellect you claim to have. Lightsnake, Darth Sexy, and everyone else who has ever read your arguments reiterate to me how absolutely retarded you are and how frustrated they are that I actually take the time to argue the cases with you. I'm beginning to see what they see.

No, you're beginning to understand that your one and only defence is to pretend, like people such as Darth Sexy, that my arguments are shit and not worth your time. Now please Gideon, honesty is key.

Bullshit #1:

a.) You've made the claim that Darth Bane is "the Sith's Chosen One!!1!" and you've yet to prove it at all. Hell, all you've managed to do is place him as a mere contender. You haven't provided sources, statements, or events that name him as such, and yet you have the audacity to say that he's "quite clearly" the Sith'ari and that we should universally accept it? Not likely to happen soon.

Apparently someone needs to familiarise themselves with Occam's Razor.

The Sith Chosen One aka The Sith'ari was stated to lead the Sith (which Bane essentially did with his knowledge of ritual Lore from Lehon, where he would literally order Kaan around and manipulated the hell out of him, went behind everyone's backs and would assign orders to the Sith Military), destroy them (which Bane essentially did with providing Kaan with knowledge of the thought bomb and manipulating him into using it), and make them stronger (which Bane essentially did with his Ro2).

Bane is the only one shown to apply on all counts.

Descriptions of the Sith'ari include "perfect power," "perfect being," (which, given Darth "with power far greater than that of the entire BoD" Bane's power, would further support him being the Sith'ari) and someone who would break away from what he knew and build things according to his design (which is what he did with the Ro2).

There's also the fact that PoD is all but screaming at you that he is in fact the Sith'ari. It's one of the major themes in the book, and Kopecz already thought that Bane might be that person after just having met him. The Darth Bane series of books are quite clearly telling the story of the Sith'ari, and it's obvious that that person would be Bane.

Bane is the only Sith shown to even come close to being a candidate, and descriptions of his power make him best suited to the "perfect power" type of comments. To assume that he is the Sith'ari is to assume the obvious. To assume that he wasn't is to assume that some completely obscure Sith was able to achieve it all, and also have power on the same level.

In extreme cases like this, in debate, Occam's Razor would dictate that Bane was actually the Sith'ari.

b.) Tell me, exactly, what being the "Sith's Chosen One!!1!" means, anyways. You've mentioned that he'd be "perfect". Clearly it's a hyperbole since he died without 1.) destroying the Jedi. 2.) destroying the Republic. 3.) died at all.

Gideon, this is one of the many reasons why you've been unable to continue the majority of our arguments, and it's because you constantly fail to see the point that's being argued.

You were claiming that Sidious essentially was born with a special destiny, yet as far as destiny was concerned, Bane was credited in a prophecy to achieve what Palpatine essentially triggered the event of.

Palpatine wasn't chosen to do anything, unlike Bane, he was simply the man for the job at the perfect opportunity. He was the trigger; nothing more, nothing less.

Tall claim. Prove it, since he clearly didn't achieve half of what the Emperor has done.

Apparently you didn't quite understand what I was saying, otherwise you wouldn't have asked me to prove it, given it's directly stated in canon.

Bane, being the Sith'ari, was prophesied at doing what Palpatine triggered into happening. As far as destinies go, Bane's was the one that was considered special, as as far as prophesies went, Bane was the one credited with what Palpatine "achieved."

I could probably drown you in the canon-approved, pro-Palpatine quotes and statements. The one from the Dark Side Sourcebook works nicely as does this:

"The Sith have waited a millennium for the birth of one who is powerful enough to return them from hiding. Darth Sidious is that one -- the Sith's revenge on the Jedi order for having nearly eradicated the practitioners of the dark side of the Force."
-- Complete Visual Dictionary, page 194.

Notice how Darth Bane isn't so much as a footnote.

Relying on these quotes, and turning this debate into arguing whether Sidious was the most intelligent, or greatest, quite clearly underlies the fact that you know that Sidious is severely lacking in showings of power, and you have no case whatsoever in arguing his personal level of power.

Now, I really though you'd learnt from your mistakes, but apparently not. You really need to realise, Gideon, that there's not one quote that you can provide that I can't prove worthless, and every time it happens, I'm sure more people will slowly be seeing the errors in their irrational belief of Sidious being the #1 Sith McDaddy.

"Powerful enough to return them from hiding"

Now, Gideon, please tell me, what was the power in which Sidious wielded that returned the Sith from hiding? I'll answer for you, it was his manipulative ability, essentially the power of his brain. Now if power, in this sense, were to be referring to personal combat power, than Sidious would have had to have used his personal power to return the Sith from hiding, rather than his brain, given the context, which clearly doesn't make sense.

If by "lacking in logic" you really mean "canonically supported in a manner far beyond that of my own", yes, I'd agree.

No, I mean "lacking in logic in the sense that you can't differentiate between someone receiving all of the credit for a particular accomplishment, and part of the credit."

Except, as the omniscient narrator states, Palpatine is being viewed through "the eyes of the dark side itself".

The eyes of the dark side > a blind, bitter woman.

LMAO, self ownage is a wonderful look for you.

Yes, Kreia is blind... meaning she would always look through the eyes of the force. That's essentially what Kreia did, she viewed her regular vision as a distraction when she had had it.

And no, that doesn't change the fact that the quote is a metaphor. Palpatine was clearly a very evil person, even for Sith standards, and the "darkness beyond darkness" makes it clear that in the context of the quote, it's his evil nature, and the darkness within Sidious that is being spoken of.

a.) Sadly, Palpatine accomplished three things: 1.) the destruction of the Republic. 2.) the collapse of the Jedi order. 3.) the establishment of the most powerful military regime in history with himself at its head.

Yes, and it took him decades to do so. Patience was a virtue that Bane possessed, but he didn't need it in his case.

Bane's? Ah, yes. He wiped out a couple hundred cowardly Sith Lords

The number is irrelevant. He displays the same kind of intelligence with his manipulations, where he's able to orchestrate Kaan into destroying the entire BoD.

and... spent the rest of his life in hiding? Yes, I can see how he compares.

1. As usual, you're wrong. Mace Windu, in the TPM novelisation, speaks of the Sith being extinct ever since Darth Bane had passed, meaning he would have come into contact with the Jedi.

2. He set up an organisation of Sith that would remain in hiding, an organisation that used that time of hiding to gather Sith knowledge and Sith philosophies for a thousand years to ensure that they would eventually be able to wipe out the Jedi, at their most complacent moment. Bane fully understood the significance behind waiting until the Jedi finally believed the Sith had been gone for good, and then striking at them.

b.) The main difference is that Sidious actually succeeded in something much more impressive.

Substantiate the intelligence required to do what Sidious did.

You're ignoring two key details:

1. Sidious had a millennium's worth of gathered knowledge and wisdom of the Sith.

2. It took him decades to do what he did.

Bane, with little help, had a goal, set out to do it, and it took him less than a year, and he did it perfectly.

c.) Ah, yes. The vaunted Rule of Two clearly makes up for any disparity in accomplishments on Bane's part.

Accomplishments alone are not indicative of intelligence. Accomplishments, and the circumstances around them are, which is something you don't appear to get.

I'll also take note that you ignored Bane's vast learning rate, which is clearly indicative of phenomenal intelligence.

Shitty logic, Nebaris. It's no wonder people lose patience with you.

"People" like to pretend. Sexy, for instance, who you bring up, claims to find me boring, and not worth his time, yet he can't keep himself from trying to have conversations with me. He would appear obsessed in fact.

As usual, you're not making a point. Sidious gets all the credit because he did all of the work.

Well there lies the flaw in your point. Sidious didn't do all of the work. He had help, in the form of a millennium's worth of accumulated wisdom and knowledge. He also required others to fulfill certain parts of his task. He didn't do all of the work, and he doesn't deserve all of the credit. You arguing that cements this weird obsession you've appeared to have with an old man.

Hell, Maul, Vader, and Dooku came closer to galactic conquest than Bane.

Galactic conquest wasn't Bane's immediate goal, meaning this comparison is silly, and Vader and Dooku simply followed their Masters instructions. Maul did... what, btw?

He played the greatest part, which is why he's Einstein and a household name for genius.

LMAO. You do realise that, in your comparison, Einstein's role was parallel to Bane's, right?

Bane, is credited with what Palps achieves in darkside prophecy, and Palpatine simply acted off of knowledge and wisdom that was gathered through Bane's actions.

He was in a better position because he was smarter. When you prove that Bane set it up where Palpatine was born emperor of the galaxy or a senator on Naboo or a chancellor of the Republic, we'll talk. 😉

Truly hilarious, but no, you can't even substantiate how smart Sidious was, and the fact remains that Sidious had help from all of the knowledge and wisdom that Bane's Order gathered over the millennium that they were active for.

Received a "little knowledge" from Revan and Nadd? Rofl. This suits my argument even better because now you admit that Sidious > Bane in knowledge.

No, as usual, you're missing the connection. I'm speaking more for Sith teachings as in Sith Philosophies and their wisdom. Bane was able to learn from two holocrons' worth of wisdom and philosophy, whereas Sidious was the product of a thousand years of gathered knowledge and philosophy.

Well, let's see. If we use your logic, Revan created the Rule of Two. Hell, it wasn't even an original concept. Revan came up with the idea, Bane scribbled it down on a holocron and quoted it verbatim. Great Sith indeed.

^ This is why you need to abandon such shitty logic.

Firstly, that wasn't your point. You were, for some reason, bringing Revan into the topic, in a very irrelevant manner, to compare his accomplishments with Sidious. Own up to the irrelevant misdirection and we're super.

Secondly, as you do, you're parroting the beliefs of others without thinking for yourself.

Revan's role in the Ro2 was far more limited than people would make out. All that Revan provided Bane with the knowledge of, was that the darkside was strongest when concentrated in small numbers rather than large, and having more than one apprentice was self defeating because it would present them the opportunity to unite against the Master, meaning that it wasn't always ensured that the strongest would survive.

However, there's far more to the Ro2 than just that.

Bane alone understood the significance behind gathering s much knowledge as the Sith could before striking back at the Jedi.

Bane alone understood the significance behind waiting until the Jedi truly believed that the Sith were extinct before striking back at them.

Bane alone knew to wipe out the BoD, and then implement the Ro2.

Bane alone was credited in prophecy in achieving what Revan in part inspired him to do, and what Palpatine triggered.

^This is why you need to abandon your attempts of defeating my points. It's not something that will ever happen

Marka Ragnos knew all about the Republic, see the Essential Guide to the Force. This is a Sith Lord who is also fellated for his cunning and intellect, and even he knew -- with their own damn empire -- that they couldn't take on the Republic. Sidious's predicament? He was literally all by his fvcking self in a time when Jedi were dominant. He worked himself up into a position on his own merit and conquered the whole damn thing on his own plans and "brilliant manipulation". So, we know Ragnos (an intelligent and powerful Sith Lord) and his army couldn't get it done, as neither did Revan (an intelligent and powerful Sith Lord) -- who also had an army. Yet Sidious did.

Apparently, you again, miss the key detail. Sure, Ragnos knew about the Republic, but he didn't have knowledge of how to locate it. Based on the stories he had heard of them, he wasn't sure that his Empire would be able to truly challenge them, and thought that it would be better to be safe then sorry, rather than go out search for the Republic.

Have you read DE, DESB, or the DSSB? Palpatine's ultimate plans? Guess not. You're mocking out of ignorance and it is most unbecoming.

Mocking out of ignorance? You're arguing from silence. I have read those sources, don't assume otherwise.

Palpatine's goals aren't in question here, but Nihilus'. Nihilus didn't care about destroying the Republic, or Jedi, so comparing him to Sidious in the sense that you're doing is beyond dumb.

Raise your game or get the hell out of the court, Nebaris. This some of the slimiest reasoning I've ever encountered and I expected better.

Quit the banter. You're not Advent, so don't try to be her you wanabee woman.

Good god noobaris, it's enough that you're a social outcast in the real world, but it's even worse that you're the laughing stock of every internet forum you frequent. Shut the hell up already, you've been pwned.

Again, you're not wanted in this thread. As I said, if you're that desperate to have a chat, go to this thread.

I'm glad you speak for everybody Noobaris, except for the fact that everybody has acknowledge that you have lost, you can't debate, and you're just taking up space. Give it up, you're an idiot. Try to concentrate on fixing that issue.

Actually Gideon, here's a thought: if you're that sure of Publius' ability to argue for Sidious, why not give him an invite to argue it out here? And I have no wish for our debates to start getting uncivil, so I'll apologize for any hostility on my part, but really, agreeing with people like Darth Sexy, who's clearly a Grade A moron, doesn't speak well for your character.

And Sexy: wow, I'm actually impressed. You were able to wait out a reply for a whole 12 minutes! What happened! Did you decide to sit down again?

If a Grade A moron can out debate you in his sleep as well as in any instance, then what does that make you? As the dumbest person on this forum, I suggest you quit embarassing yourself, as you are so fond of doing on a daily basis.

Originally posted by Ultra Omega
No, the epitome of bullshit, would be you pretending to have, and end up doing, essentially, what you were describing as a Two Wrongs Make One Right fallacy, in our last debate to attempt to hide the fact that you couldn't counter my arguments, nor present your own valid ones. There was a reason why I stopped replying to you in that debate, and it's because your replies were starting to gt so low as to be on Galactus' level. Try to keep them higher this time.

Your insults are recycled from previous arguments under your different accounts, Nebaris. Since you aren't award-winning in your wit or ability to flame, perhaps you should remove them from the equation and stick to the argument? The fact remains that you'll continue to tell me how I am doing things and I'll do the same; you tell me I'm wrong, I tell you you're wrong. You say you've proven your point, I'll say you haven't. It's a vicious cycle, and it's apparent that neither of us is about to change our ways. Yet, also, the fact remains that you clearly haven't -- by virtue of on-panel evidence and canon-approved statements -- proven anything. Why do you think you've had to resort to try to question the validity of the quotes at my disposal? And even then, you haven't managed to undermine them: as "my boyfriend" Publius puts it best, your actions have demonstrated "a willfull ignorance of the English language".

What standards exactly? Not understanding how the burden of proof works? Not understanding the concept of ambiguity? Two things, you, apparently, have no idea about.

You're proficient with three "forms of defense", Nebaris. 1.) the ambiguity card. 2.) dodging points and asserting opinions without the benefit of proof. 3.) the "absence of proof" clause. These things, at best (which is far from the level you've applied them) could only destabilize my arguments -- not prove your own. So even if you managed to prove me wrong, you haven't managed to prove yourself right. So far, you haven't managed to do either. Not because you're incompetent or stupid (though I would question your common sense and decency) but because you're arguing against canon.

Now Gideon, one of the reasons I respect you more than most on here is for your honesty, so please, be honest. The real reason for your evident anger here is because in the matter of days I've pretty much debunked what is according to you two year's worth of Pro Sidious arguments.

This would be an example of defense number two: asserting evidence without the benefit of support. You've yet to disprove anything. All you've done is repeatedly flash the ambiguity card and tried to wave the absence of proof clause like some unholy banner, expecting canon to bend to your will. It hasn't. All you're continuing to do is assert that you're right and I'm wrong. The difference being: you're all by yourself in that line of thought.

Be honest, and I'll continue respecting you.

I don't particularly desire your respect. You continue to demonstrate that you're not worth the time, effort, and patience I allotted you. I debate the issues; you use double standards. You attempt to use lies to cover up your identity. It's desperate and it's hypocritical. I tell you this and ask that you stop using such ridiculous tactics, and you resort to bashing.

Again, you've become a broken record. Now you said you'd stop bringing this up, so stop bringing this up. Going back on your word is what's pathetic here.

A broken record? As opposed to an individual who's came to these forums for over a year with a dozen or so accounts in an attempt to assert his non-canon and unsupported dreams? And then has the audacity to lie about it, while using carbon-copied statements and arguments verbatim and referencing users whom he -- if he were telling the truth -- never encountered? Perhaps I have truly underestimated your intelligence.

No, you're beginning to understand that your one and only defence is to pretend, like people such as Darth Sexy, that my arguments are shit and not worth your time. Now please Gideon, honesty is key.

A liar lecturing about honesty? The farce continues. I'll tell you what, Nebaris, how about you cease being a hypocrite before expecting me to follow your advice?

Apparently someone needs to familiarise themselves with Occam's Razor.

The Sith Chosen One aka The Sith'ari was stated to lead the Sith (which Bane essentially did with his knowledge of ritual Lore from Lehon, where he would literally order Kaan around and manipulated the hell out of him, went behind everyone's backs and would assign orders to the Sith Military), destroy them (which Bane essentially did with providing Kaan with knowledge of the thought bomb and manipulating him into using it), and make them stronger (which Bane essentially did with his Ro2).

Bane is the only one shown to apply on all counts.

Descriptions of the Sith'ari include "perfect power," "perfect being," (which, given Darth "with power far greater than that of the entire BoD" Bane's power, would further support him being the Sith'ari) and someone who would break away from what he knew and build things according to his design (which is what he did with the Ro2).

There's also the fact that PoD is all but screaming at you that he is in fact the Sith'ari. It's one of the major themes in the book, and Kopecz already thought that Bane might be that person after just having met him. The Darth Bane series of books are quite clearly telling the story of the Sith'ari, and it's obvious that that person would be Bane.

Bane is the only Sith shown to even come close to being a candidate, and descriptions of his power make him best suited to the "perfect power" type of comments. To assume that he is the Sith'ari is to assume the obvious. To assume that he wasn't is to assume that some completely obscure Sith was able to achieve it all, and also have power on the same level.

In extreme cases like this, in debate, Occam's Razor would dictate that Bane was actually the Sith'ari.

I'm afraid not. The statement regarding the Sith'ari being a "perfect being" "is clearly hyperbole", since Darth Bane failed to succeed and accomplish the goals of the Sith order. The fact that he failed to achieve any level of immortality or overcome death -- the fact that he nearly died at Githany's hands due to her deception -- debunks the notion that Bane is a "perfect" being. You trying to define perfect as being "an uber Sith" is ridiculous. No one in Star Wars is perfect or has demonstrated a divinity approaching it. Lastly, you've still yet to provide incontrovertible proof that Bane is the Sith'ari. You're merely speculating that he is. Speculation =/= fact.

Gideon, this is one of the many reasons why you've been unable to continue the majority of our arguments, and it's because you constantly fail to see the point that's being argued.

Continue the majority? What majority? Where have I been "unable to continue" our arguments? I'm sorry, weren't you the one who admitted that you stopped contributing to our other argument (and then proceeded to rattle off some "reason"😉? I'd ask you for proof, but I've been asking for proof from you about a lot of things and I've yet to be satisfied.

You were claiming that Sidious essentially was born with a special destiny, yet as far as destiny was concerned, Bane was credited in a prophecy to achieve what Palpatine essentially triggered the event of.

a.) You've yet to prove that Bane is the Sith'ari.

b.) You've yet to prove that the Sith'ari is credited with the goals Palpatine accomplished.

c.) Even if you did succeed in either a.) or b.), the fact that Sidious accomplished them and Bane did not means that he can't be credited for it. He's irrelevant to it.

Palpatine wasn't chosen to do anything, unlike Bane, he was simply the man for the job at the perfect opportunity. He was the trigger; nothing more, nothing less.

Prove it.

According to what is canon, Palpatine was destined to succeed. He accomplished the goals of the Sith order, ascended to galactic dominance, and destroyed both the Republic and the Jedi out of his own efforts -- not Bane's.