Originally posted by Ultra OmegaNo, its you are unable to comprehend what i just typed, i said the so called "immortality" he has only takes place on dark side empowered worlds as he himself stated, something which you fail to acknowledge
Your exact words were 'keep on fighting.' It's not my fault you're not able to properly convey your thoughts into words.
[QUOTE=9850740]Originally posted by Ultra Omega
[B]
Well clearly you're grammer, your bias, your down playment of canon says other wise, no 2 person in the universe is alike
Originally posted by Gideon
Palpatine was also, by the way, able to consume life on a planetary level, that he did it over the course of years to prolong his lifespan demonstrates a much more profound control over it than Nihilus.
Nihilus wanted to feed on the massive amount of energies that he would get by draining all the Force sensitives in that world. His terrible hunger was the driving force behind this, so he drained an entire planet quickly.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenDLegend, nihilus doesn't "drain" the lives of others like sidious or malak does, it is completely different.
The "motives" of Nihilus were actually different from that of Sidious when he decided to drain an entire planet.Nihilus wanted to feed on the massive amount of energies that he would get by draining all the Force sensitives in that world. His terrible hunger was the driving force behind this, so he drained an entire planet quickly.
What he does is he breaks the bond between his victims and the force which kills them instantly, then he feeds upon the death it causes.
The exile too feeds on the death she caused according to the jedi masters
Oh and nihilus didnt drain the planet itself but what was on the planet.
Originally posted by GahLakTus✅
Legend, nihilus doesn't "drain" the lives of others like sidious or malak does, it is completely different.What he does is he breaks the bond between his victims and the force which kills them instantly, then he feeds upon the death it causes.
The exile too feeds on the death she caused according to the jedi masters
Oh and nihilus didnt drain the planet itself but what was on the planet.
Originally posted by Gideon
Straight from Dictionary.com:...They're pretty much the same thing. Dictionary.com lists them as synonyms. So, essentially, what I said was redundant but not nonsensical.
It was nonsensical in the sense that the "and" indicates a difference in meaning, when there is none there between the two synonyms. Not that it matters, honest mistake.
Kind've like your statement: "Wow, that's not only nonsensical, but it doesn't even make sense!"
LOL...
Gideon, I was quite clearly joking when I said that, in mock response to what you had just said. Seriously, thought that was obvious. It's why I stated "In all seriousness" directly afterwards.
Pitiful reasoning. Sion's claims are just that -- claims -- and you expecting me to adhere to them based on the conclusion that "he's not in a position to lie!" (which is hilarious, since Sion is a Sith Lord and is thus deceitful by nature) and that he "knows such things!" without supporting it is ridiculous. Suffice it to say that things aren't fact because you state them, Nebaris, and if you want me to take your reasoning seriously, you'll do me the favor of proving it to be so.
Firstly, I'll take note that you ignored all of this:
Sion possessed wounds that should essentially be killing him, yet he lives,
but this is the game's way of setting up how great a threat Sion was to further add to the drama and hopelessness of the story.
Try to get to it, if you can.
Secondly, your assertion that Sion is deceitful by nature simply because he is a Sith is what you'd call a False Association Fallacy. You can't just attribute him characteristics that simply belong to a collective group that Sion belongs to. As for whether or not he'd lie in such a position, there would only be one reason to lie in such a position in that respect, and that would be to demoralise The Exile (I mean, you're not gonna argue that he'd be trying to impress her are you?). Given that the claim follows Sion rising up each time after being struck down by the Exile, and that the claim wasn't really adding on any extra information that would demoralise The Exile, there would be no such value for the claim, if it were to be a lie.
Thirdly, how exactly would Sion not be in a position to know? You honestly don't think he would have tested the ability one time, before making such claims?
But again, arguing over Sion's credibility itself is silly, given that what he claims is the Game's way of giving us, the players, information about the storyline. What you need to understand, with literature, is that when there is no plausible method of conveying pure thought or fact through words, fallible third party claims, as long as there is no reason to suggest that they're inaccurate, are pretty much as good as words coming from the Omniscient Narrator.
This is irrelevant. Dictionary.com defines immortality as "endless life" and invincible as "incapable of being conquered, defeated, or subdued". In this case, Sion was neither, so in truth, he was neither immortal or invincible.
Naturally, he was neither, that is correct, but the ability itself granted him invincibility. The fact that he could "turn it off" so to speak doesn't detract from the ability itself, it simply means he has control over it.
He was manipulated into such an action by the Exile. Based on all canon evidence, it is highly reasonable to assume that Palpatine could do the same. You disagreeing is astonishing.
That makes his mental state fallible, not the ability itself, which is what I was getting at. You can't label the ability itself fallible by using evidence of what happens to Sion when he stops using it, is my point.
And no, that's not highly reasonable, as already explained. Palpatine's manipulative ability isn't infallible, and manipulations by their very nature generally only work at their best if you manipulate a subject over a long period of time.
That's right. You're basing this off of the unsupported assumption that Sion had to be "uber" with the Force to become psuedo-immortal/invincible. However, Sion hasn't demonstrated anything approaching the Emperor's level of Force mastery, so for all we know, his psuedo-immortality/invincibility was achieved through an application of willpower, rage, and Force power. Kind've like how Palpatine's Force Storm (which dwarfs anything destructive on Sion's part) was an application of knowledge, willpower, and Force power.
To argue exactly what proportion of hate, willpower, and force ability that Sion possessed that granted him the ability to develop such an ability is purely speculation, true, so we might as well not, though given that force ability is what actually enables force users to manipulate the energy around them (whereas hate, and willpower, and other such abilities play more heavily on the mental demands behind the execution of the force), it can be logically assumed that force ability plays the most important part. No matter what way you look at it, cheating death with the force is clearly requiring some great strength with the force, and heavy mastery.
Also, the fundamental point that you're missing is that his ability speaks heavily for attributes that can be channelled into other abilities. Willpower? Already been elaborated on. Hate and anger? Numerous sources make them out as being heavy attributes when it comes to truly mastering the darkside. The Darkside Compendium for one, where Darth Sidious labels it as one of the primary attributes that enable him to summon force Storms. Force ability? no explanation required.
Sadly, it would. Willpower =/= massive Force power in all areas. Leia Organa Solo was able to resist the Empire's interrogation techniques and those of Darth Vader himself. Where is her upper tier demonstration of Force power, then? She doesn't have any. Her connection to the Force is mighty, but it doesn't do her any good. She's still not an upper tier Force user or combatant, despite having a connection to the Force that outstrips... what... 99% of the SW mythos? Your assertion that willpower = talent in all areas of the Force is ridiculous.
You're referring to Leia when she was mostly untrained. Of course willpower wouldn't factor in on force ability if you don't really know how to use it. Just like how it wouldn't apply if you have no connection to the force. It simply factors in on force ability. Leia virtually had none. Virtually nothing to factor in on. What she's doing, is not actually a force ability, but simply using her mind to resist mental applications of the force.
As I've already said, pure force ability would always be the primary attribute when using the force, but willpower, according to several sources, plays a heavy part to. Willpower, when it comes to force use, is essentially how well you can mentally handle usages of the force. This would be a factor in all force abilities. Why not for Sion? Unlike Leia, he's actually been trained with the force, and has a way in which he can apply his willpower in the certain ways you have mentioned.
Absence of proof is not proof of absence? H'okay.
Do you deny this? If Sion has no need for displaying great ability with the force, then there's no way you can consider a lack of such displays as evidence of Sidious' superiority. None.
Lmao. You're fellating him because he cut off a Sith historian's hand and was the head of a bunch of weak-ass Sith assassins? So far, he's not stacking up against Darth Maul -- let alone Palpatine.
What does the fact that Kreia is a Sith Historian have to do with anything? Her displays with the force are phenomenal, and as such it can be logically concluded that her general force ability is exceptional. Which would include pre-cog, reflexes, and speed. All of which were -for Kreia- not able to stop Sion from slicing off her hand in one move. If you're making a point of her logically not excelling in pure combat technique, well, irrelevant. She got taken out in one move. It's not like they crossed blades; technique doesn't factor in on what happened, only speed and reactions.
Weak-ass Sith assassins? Lol, can I say unsupported? There's nothing to indicate that they were weak. They were Masters of numerous styles of combat, including unarmed, so being the head of them speaks well for Sion's pure martial prowess. Not to mention (though a tad not to the point) they were Masters at cloaking themselves with the force, and well practised in Nihilus' severing ability, the greatest Sith teaching there was according to Kreia. Nothing indicates that as a collective group, they were weak.
BTW, you bring up Darth Maul. The same Darth Maul that was nearly able to take out Darth sidious in combat, hmm?
An enormous advantage? Hahaha. He got back up and... left. Like a b1tch who had just been whipped by a newspaper. What advantage? What was he going to do, exactly?
The advantage of not dying. The scene fully cements just how resistant to damage Sion really is.
Prove it. Palpatine was also, by the way, able to consume life on a planetary level, that he did it over the course of years to prolong his lifespan demonstrates a much more profound control over it than Nihilus.
Indicates more control? How? Nihilus simply had no need to prolong the inhabitant's destruction. He's shown in three different situations, however, to possess the control with the technique to use it on a single being (Sion, the Exile, Kreia). So, as far as control is concerned, Nihilus has demonstrated far more of it that Palpatine. Time itself is no indication of control. In fact, all that shows is that Sidious has never displayed the ability to take such a great amount of life in quick succession, or instantly. In other words, Nihilus has displayed both more power, and more control with his planetary scale powers. Sidious < Nihilus.
Prove what, btw? That Nihilus is a cosmic being? His planetary scale awareness, planetary scale destructive power, and the fact that his mere presence kills makes him a cosmic being. Being overpowered by a cosmic being doesn't make you weak. The rest? All stated in the game.
Sadly, the analogy isn't. You've only proven that Sion is adept in only one "major" technique, his psuedo-immortality/invincibility.
No, it really is. Sion, as a force user, draws power from a single source, which can be applied through a number of uses. Force users can use the force offensively, defensively, hide themselves with it, control others with it, heal others with it, and do a number of other things. Their force ability (as in the strength of their relationship with the force, and their mastery of it) factors in on all abilities. Thus, if a force User excels with one ability, it speaks for their overall ability, as well as how effectively they can use their other ability.
Claire Bennet, as a "Hero," has access to one ability, which can't be applied in any way except regrowing her cells at an enhanced rate. Her being subdued by Sylar, is simply because her one ability is useless at doing anything other than healing her.
The analogy was as false as they come.
You're right. Your stance is "unproven, as it stands".
I'm always right.
Facts are statements of truth. Your assumptions don't qualify.
They weren't assumptions. Sidious wouldn't have to rely on cloning technology if he could truly cheat physical death. And nothing indicates that Sidious can neutralise such an ability as Sion's.
Sorry, but no. Palpatine has demonstrated speed, strength, experience, and knowledge on numerous occasions that vastly outstrip Sion's own. His power? Would we really need to go into detail? Likewise, I can always use the quotes from canon sources. Like it or not, Nebaris, this route has been closed off for you.
First, please don't call me Nebaris (this goes for anybody else too). Wild and constant accusations that happen to not be true are a little annoying, to say the least.
What canon quotes? Provide them or don't bring them up.
As for demonstrations, I can only repeat what I've been saying. Absence of proof is not proof of absence. Provide proof of necessity, or drop the point.
It applies. Psuedo-immortality.
Invincibility, Gideon. Again, immortality indicates that you're not only invincible but don't age either. For instance, in Heroes which you appear to be a fan of, it's common knowledge that Claire and Kensei's ability means that they can virtually not die (it would appear removal of the head does the trick), but it's only labelled immortality (in the way that something new was being revealed) once it's revealed that he doesn't age either.
"Absence of proof is not proof of absence. Provide proof of necessity, or drop the point. As long as Sidious hasn't needed to display such, the fact that he doesn't relates in no way to his ability to do so."
Nor is it proof of the affirmative. Nothing indicates that Sidious has that kind of power over Sion, ergo it's the logical stance to take. You can't default on the whole absence of proof thing when the burden of proof is on you. That would be what you'd call the burden of proof fallacy.
If you think the same applies for when I stated such, the difference is that both times, the burden of proof hasn't been on me, but you.
Sorry, but no. Palpatine's the unquestioned manipulator of the SW mythos. Manipulating your sworn enemy for years while sitting in the very same room as you? Manipulating a galactic-spanning institution into giving you supreme power? Turning the being destined to destroy you into your ***** for twenty years? Tempting his son to join the dark side? Manipulating the Bothan Spynet? I could go on and on and on and on. Sad fact of the matter that Palpatine is more than capable of manipulating Sion into giving up his psuedo-immortality/invincibility after he gets tired of kicking the shit out of him all over the environment.
Not questioning Sidious' position there, but what you need to realise is that all the successful manipulations that you listed, were manipulations that he did over a long period of time. Manipulations, by their very nature, only work at their best when the manipulator plays things out nice and slowly. Incidentally, the one manipulation attempt that you listed that wasn't played out nice and slow (attempting to turn Luke to the darkside), was the one that failed. He also received two advantages there that he wouldn't have with Sion if he were to attempt to manipulate him. 1. He had Luke go up against someone immensely more powerful and skilled than he was. 2. He had someone else fight Luke, and was able to spend a small amount of time manipulating Luke, which he wouldn't have gained if he were to have been in combat as well.
I doubt he'd even be able to find the energy to say more than a few words in a fast paced one-on-one battle with Sion, let alone use his manipulative abilities to their fullest. Really, there's nothing to suggest that he'd be able to break Sion's will.
Fact: He wouldn't be able to gain an advantage over Sion's greatest mental weakness.
Fact: Manipulations work at their best with the luxury of time, and at their worst in fast paced battle scenarios.
Fact: Sidious has only ever been shown to successfully manipulate someone by working at it over a long period of time.
Fact: Every time he's shown to attempt to instantly manipulate someone, he's failed. Both times, against Luke.
Fact: All the evidence points to Sion's will being far greater than Luke's, and in a battle with Sion, Sidious wouldn't possess specific advantages that he actually did possess against luke, where he failed anyway.
So, to recap, your argument that Sidious would be able to break Sion's will has no real backing
Sion ftw!
Assuming you're not banned, Nebaris, I'll talk to you later.
I can assure you that I won't be banned, given that none of my actions have warranted it. And again, quit the name calling.
Originally posted by GahLakTus
No, its you are unable to comprehend what i just typed, i said the so called "immortality" he has only takes place on dark side empowered worlds as he himself stated, something which you fail to acknowledge 😂
Which you stated after my reply. I can assure you, the misunderstanding is on your part, not mine. And again, I call bullshit. His "immortality" ties into his ability to keep his body together, which remains active when not on darkside immersed worlds, such as on the Ebon Hawk.
Well clearly you're grammer, your bias, your down playment of canon says other wise, no 2 person in the universe is alike
😂 😂
I think the word you're looking for there, little man, is "unique." Either way, it's not like I'd take your accusations seriously anyway. You hardly appear to be Mr Perceptive.
Originally posted by Ultra OmegaAlong with the fact that on dark side worlds, he is much harder to beat, elsewhere, sidious would annihilate him
Which you stated after my reply. I can assure you, the misunderstanding is on your part, not mine. And again, I call bullshit. His "immortality" ties into his ability to keep his body together, which remains active when not on darkside immersed worlds, such as on the Ebon Hawk.
Originally posted by Ultra OmegaDenials a b!tch
I think the word you're looking for there, little man, is "unique." Either way, it's not like I'd take your accusations seriously anyway. You hardly appear to be Mr Perceptive.
Oh btw
Page 109 from the Dark Empire sourcebook:
"Palpatine has risen from the dead. The most powerful Sith Lord who ever lived had returned."
Empire's End, one of the Sith spirits: "He gave up everything to the Dark Side long ago. He has become the greatest who ever lived. He is the strongest who ever lived....I say we give what he wishes."
Star Wars Insider, Kevin J. Anderson, upon asked if he ever intended his Sith to be stronger than the OT sith: "No. Exar Kun, Naga Sadow and the others are on a firmly lower tier than Emperor Palpatine."
On TFN.net, official response to the strongest Sith: "Palpatine at his peak."
Essential Chronology: "the most powerful Sith who had ever lived, Emperor Palpatine had returned from the grave."
Originally posted by Ultra OmegaGoing by what you said , I guess bastila is a force god because of her battle meditation, something which windu has never shown to use yet despite bastila having this BM, she has been shown to be merely an average force user seeing that malak easily tooled her after she sacrifised herself to save revan
Wow, so you're gonna argue that someone who wasn't extremely powerful with the force can achieve something so phenomenal with it that no one else was able to?
Originally posted by Ultra OmegaI guess the fact that sidious had the entire jedi archives, holocrons and all the knowledge to himself pretty much indicates he has far greater knowledge of the force than sion does and added with the fact that sion has never shown anything remarkable with the force other than his will power keeping him alive.
Fact is, Sion was able to achieve what no one else has been able to, and his ability makes him near unstoppable in a battle scenario.
Right achieving something your opponent has yet to does not necessarily mean your more powerful, lets take out the new essential guide to characters , it stated on exar kuns page that exar kuns achievement as draining the massassi and being able to survive 4000 years as a spirit topped out what sidious did as coming back from death more than once but does that mean he is more powerful than sidious? Despite the fact various sources stated sidious superiority to both kun and sion?
Originally posted by Ultra OmegaI guess he is more powerful than nihilus and luke because "they have never demonstrated this ability". All it would take is sidious to destroy sions force bond killing him instantly as nihilus easily did to countless people.
To achieve remarkable feats that no on else has been able to with the force would suggest to anyone who actually possesses a brain that his ability to wield the force is obviously quite adept.
Originally posted by Ultra OmegaYour the one that needs to prove up nebby, what has sion demonstrated with the force? That indicates he is an extremely powerful force user with the capabilities to even fight toe to toe against somebody superior to him in every aspect of the force?
Absence of proof is not proof of absence. Provide proof of necessity, or drop the point. As long as Sion hasn't needed to display such, the fact that he doesn't relates in no way to his ability to do so. Sion appears in a few scenes within a Video Game FFS!
Right from the feats sidious accomplished with the force its safe to say he beats sion comfortably.
Originally posted by Ultra OmegaWow because he sliced of kreias hand when she isn't in a fighting stance it means he has demonstrated incredible combat prowess, who -oope - friggin do then i guess anakin as of ROTS is a saber god because he sliced off windu's arm in one strike while vader is another god superior to sidious seeing he killed and diced up sia lan wezz's hand before her dead body hit the floor.
Prowess? Not only was he championed as the head of a sect of Sith Assassins, but he displays a phenomenal level of dexterity when slicing off Kreia's hand in one move. If tha's not prowess, I don't know what is.
Fantastic logic neb
Originally posted by Ultra OmegaAnd what happens when sidious using the fallanasi technique? Nihilus wouldn't be able to sense his force bond thus not being able to do anything to it.
2. Nihilus is a [b]cosmic being. Being overpowered by him doesn't not make you a powerhouse. His mere presence tangibly effects those around him, he was able to consume the life on an entire planet, and his awareness is on a planetary level. Sidious wouldn't do any better, he'd do worse actually, and die.[/B]
I guess going by your logic, sidious is superior to NJO luke because he reconnected his force connection by himself after he got blinded to the force by leia and luke, something which sion has never demonstrated the capabilities to do so. Oh right by the time of dark empire, its safe to assume sidious could just cut his connection off and then proceed to wtf pwn him seeing that weaker jedi like vrook could do this technique
Originally posted by Ultra OmegaWhat other abilities? Hmmm
That analogy is completely off. Sion, like all force users, is able to manipulate a power source for a number of different uses. His ability to cheat death, and all his other abilities, draw power from the same source. Claire has access to one ability...
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Nebaris, not to be contrary, but it seems whenever we reach a consensus you go right back to this a short time later...
Precisely. I've got no problem with Nebaris, but I do wonder why he's so desperate to get back here. I remember him telling people off for having "no lives". Going back and forth over the same issue isn't worth it.
@ Ultra Omega
Darth Sion is good. He cheated death, which is very impressive and this is what makes him a dangerous foe.
Even than, Darth Sidious is considerably more powerful and experienced than Darth Sion.
I know that the only way to defeat Darth Sion is by eroding his will. But to do that, Darth Sidious will have to use the art of Dun Moch.
Dun Moch is actually a perfect art to use in single combat situations to confuse or demoralize or even motivate enemies. Darth Vader was adept in the art of Dun Moch and he was actually the apprentice of Darth Sidious, so we can logically deduce that Darth Sidious would also be good at using Dun Moch.
Hence it is not impossible for Darth Sidious to erode the will of Darth Sion by using the combination of Dun Moch along with over-powering him through the Force.
And during the duel, Darth Sion will eventually understand that he can't defeat Darth Sidious. So he eventually might give up.
After-all the case of his duel against Jedi Exile was also similar.
By the time he faced Jedi Exile for the second time, he realized that Jedi Exile had become tough and experienced and hence it was getting difficult for him to sub-due her in combat and Jedi Exile actually used Dun Moch on him to convince him to give up.
So what do you say?