Originally posted by S_W_LeGenDOr he could spam Force Lightning until Sion walks away crying.
@ [B]Ultra OmegaDarth Sion is good. He cheated death, which is very impressive and this is what makes him a dangerous foe.
Even than, Darth Sidious is considerably more powerful and experienced than Darth Sion.
I know that the only way to defeat Darth Sion is by eroding his will. But to do that, Darth Sidious will have to use the art of Dun Moch.
Dun Moch is actually a perfect art to use in single combat situations to confuse or demoralize or even motivate enemies. Darth Vader was adept in the art of Dun Moch and he was actually the apprentice of Darth Sidious, so we can logically deduce that Darth Sidious would also be good at using Dun Moch.
Hence it is not impossible for Darth Sidious to erode the will of Darth Sion by using the combination of Dun Moch along with over-powering him through the Force.
And during the duel, Darth Sion will eventually understand that he can't defeat Darth Sidious. So he eventually might give up.
After-all the case of his duel against Jedi Exile was also similar.
By the time he faced Jedi Exile for the second time, he realized that Jedi Exile had become tough and experienced and hence it was getting difficult for him to sub-due her in combat and Jedi Exile actually used Dun Moch on him to convince him to give up.
So what do you say? [/B]
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
@ [B]Ultra OmegaDarth Sion is good. He cheated death, which is very impressive and this is what makes him a dangerous foe.
Even than, Darth Sidious is considerably more powerful and experienced than Darth Sion.
I know that the only way to defeat Darth Sion is by eroding his will. But to do that, Darth Sidious will have to use the art of Dun Moch.
Dun Moch is actually a perfect art to use in single combat situations to confuse or demoralize or even motivate enemies. Darth Vader was adept in the art of Dun Moch and he was actually the apprentice of Darth Sidious, so we can logically deduce that Darth Sidious would also be good at using Dun Moch.
Hence it is not impossible for Darth Sidious to erode the will of Darth Sion by using the combination of Dun Moch along with over-powering him through the Force.
And during the duel, Darth Sion will eventually understand that he can't defeat Darth Sidious. So he eventually might give up.
After-all the case of his duel against Jedi Exile was also similar.
By the time he faced Jedi Exile for the second time, he realized that Jedi Exile had become tough and experienced and hence it was getting difficult for him to sub-due her in combat and Jedi Exile actually used Dun Moch on him to convince him to give up.
So what do you say? [/B]
Probably the most objective argument out of any Sidious supporter here, so good job!
But, there are two reason why I generally don't agree with your conclusion:
1. Nothing suggests that Sidious is actually more powerful than Sion in any sense.
2. Being a Master of Dun Moch is great and all, but Sion does not have an inherently weak will. He only lost the will to continue fighting because of Traya, and the fact that she cared more for her than she did for Sion. Sidious would not be able to exploit this advantage.
But, again, I can at least respect your argument; nicely done!
Originally posted by Ultra Omega
[B
1. Nothing suggests that Sidious is actually more powerful than Sion in any sense.
[/B]
wait, I'm not getting your argument at all, how does Sion's one ability (the nature of which is far from ordinary) translate into having power on par with the likes of Sidious.
I mean, Sion may have only died in his fight with the exile because he chose to, but that doesn't change the fact that the exile would have put him down a few times before that. Doesn't that seem to indicate that he lacked any sort of martial advantage over the exile (who isn't exactly a powerhouse) and instead was relying on his ability to revive himself? I'd imagine that if the exile can put him down a few times on her own, then I don't see it being more than an afterthought for someone like Sidious.
Also, what exactly would Sion do should Sidious separate a limb from his body and TK it away?
wait, I'm not getting your argument at all, how does Sion's one ability (the nature of which is far from ordinary) translate into having power on par with the likes of Sidious.
I would actually go a step further, and say that it translates into him being a good level above Sidious.
Fact: The ability makes him unstoppable in a battle scenario.
Fact: The ability is exclusive to Sion, which indicates an exceptional level of power.
Aside from the ability, he's displayed some exceptional speed in combat, and his battle prowess can be argued as greater than Sidious', given him being the deadliest out of a group of Sith Assassin, that were stated as being Masters of all sorts of combat techniques.
I mean, Sion may have only died in his fight with the exile because he chose to, but that doesn't change the fact that the exile would have put him down a few times before that. Doesn't that seem to indicate that he lacked any sort of martial advantage over the exile (who isn't exactly a powerhouse) and instead was relying on his ability to revive himself? I'd imagine that if the exile can put him down a few times on her own, then I don't see it being more than an afterthought for someone like Sidious.
Argument from personal incredulity, Logical Fallacy. You have no proof whatsoever in putting Sidious above The Exile. Not only is she made out to be an exceptional prodigy when mastering forms of combat exceptionally quickly, but her unique nature meant that she drew power from whoever she killed in battle, which was in the hundreds, indicating great power in the force.
Also, as you claim, the need to defend himself isn't really there, given that he could simply rely on his ability to protect him. Thus, constantly getting struck down doesn't make him an inherently weak duelist or anything, he just doesn't have the need that others would in defending himself.
Also, what exactly would Sion do should Sidious separate a limb from his body and TK it away?
Sion is resistant to such damage. His body remains perfectly together both after a full on Onslaught from Darth Nihilus (who is certainly more powerful than Darth Sidious) and during each cutscene that follows The Exile striking him with her lightsaber.
Also, again, nothing indicates that Sidious would be on a level above him in either battle prowess of force strength to achieve such a thing. I could just turn the question around, and it would have the same effect as your's; none. Supports your points and substantiate them, or don't bother replying.
Originally posted by Ultra OmegaEven tho Nihilus in cut content(which never happened only because they had a timeline to keep) easily pwned him with Force Lightning(Sidious' speciality) and had Sion walking away with sniffles about how his mommy(Traya) doesn't love him anymore and how Nihilus is a big bully? That's right.
Fact: The ability makes him unstoppable in a battle scenario.
Sidious was STATED to be THE most powerful Sith EVA!!!!
Even tho Nihilus in cut content(which never happened only because they had a timeline to keep) easily pwned him with a combination of Force Lightning(Sidious' speciality), telekinesis, and teh force killer
Fixed, and the fact that lightning is Sidious' speciality means nothing, given Nihilus is a good few leagues above him in force ability.
and had Sion walking away with sniffles about how his mommy(Traya) doesn't love him anymore
What are you talking about?
and how Nihilus is a big bully? That's right.
As has already been said, Nihilus is a cosmic being, and most (if not all) would get owned like Sion did. Difference is, they wouldn't get up with their body completely intact like Sion did.
Sidious was STATED to be THE most powerful Sith EVA!!!!
No he wasn't, not in the sense that you're indicating at least, and even if that were the case, Nihilus contradicts it. He has such a level of power that he perceives the universe differently than other beings. His mere presence kills and bends beings to his will. He was able to kill the life on an entire planet in what can be perceived as very quickly and with very little effort required given the action was described as "with a word." Nihilus>>> Darth Sidious.
Originally posted by Ultra Omega1. Okay, you are right, he used a combo of Force Lightning, Force Drain(both at the same time in fact), and then thru him while still doing both(which is really KEWL!). Even so, Sidious>Nihilus, fact.
Fixed, and the fact that lightning is Sidious' speciality means nothing, given Nihilus is a good few leagues above him in force ability.What are you talking about?
As has already been said, Nihilus is a cosmic being, and most (if not all) would get owned like Sion did. Difference is, they wouldn't get up with their body completely intact like Sion did.
No he wasn't, not in the sense that you're indicating at least, and even if that were the case, Nihilus contradicts it. He has such a level of power that he perceives the universe differently than other beings. His mere presence kills and bends beings to his will. He was able to kill the life on an entire planet in what can be perceived as very quickly and with very little effort required given the action was described as "with a word." Nihilus>>> Darth Sidious.
2. Sion is a big emo pussy.
3. Lol, Nihilus let him live, he could have easily ended his "immortality".
4. Yeah, he was canonically stated in several things to be>any Sith, and even GL himself said it I believe. I would love to agree with you on this, believe me, but logic and reason prevents me.
Originally posted by Ultra OmegaI would actually go a step further, and say that it translates into him being a good level above Sidious.
Fact: The ability makes him unstoppable in a battle scenario.
Fact: The ability is exclusive to Sion, which indicates an exceptional level of power.
How does the power make him unstoppable, you never provided any proof that he could function should he simply be decapitated, or that he can somehow use this power indefinitely. Also, the power by it's nature affects only Sion himself, therefor the amount of force engeries expended can't possibly compare to Sidious using the force at a planetary scale, as Gideion said Sion's ability speaks more for his will or control of the force rather than his raw power.
Originally posted by Ultra OmegaAside from the ability, he's displayed some exceptional speed in combat, and his battle prowess can be argued as greater than Sidious', given him being the deadliest out of a group of Sith Assassin, that were stated as being Masters of all sorts of combat techniques.
His only show of skill in combat that we see is when he hacks a hand off of Traya, who's never been shown to posses any kind of impressive ability in close quarters combat.
Originally posted by Ultra Omega
Argument from personal incredulity, Logical Fallacy. You have no proof whatsoever in putting Sidious above The Exile. Not only is she made out to be an exceptional prodigy when mastering forms of combat exceptionally quickly, but her unique nature meant that she drew power from whoever she killed in battle, which was in the hundreds, indicating great power in the force.
Nothing about the exile implies that she was any kind of powerhouse. At the very least she wouldn't have surpassed Yoda (stated to be the strongest jedi ever) who in turn was unable to overcome sidious.
Originally posted by Ultra Omega
Also, as you claim, the need to defend himself isn't really there, given that he could simply rely on his ability to protect him. Thus, constantly getting struck down doesn't make him an inherently weak duelist or anything, he just doesn't have the need that others would in defending himself.
What a load, you have no proof that he was holding back at all, in fact, considering his considerable blood lust and hate when Jedi are involved, it seems far fetched that he would hold back on anyone aside from Kreia herself.
Originally posted by Ultra Omega
Sion is resistant to such damage. His body remains perfectly together both after a full on Onslaught from Darth Nihilus (who is certainly more powerful than Darth Sidious) and during each cutscene that follows The Exile striking him with her lightsaber.
So, using your logic, anyone who walks out of a fight in KOTOR without looking different must posses Sion's ability, since no character's model changes after a fight. Any
Originally posted by Ultra Omega
Also, again, nothing indicates that Sidious would be on a level above him in either battle prowess of force strength to achieve such a thing. I could just turn the question around, and it would have the same effect as your's; none. Supports your points and substantiate them, or don't bother replying.
Force ability: Besides being stated to be the strongest (which for most people would be enough), he's also got huge displays of force power on a planetary level
Battle prowess: He faced a team of 4 Jedi masters, all of whom were hailed as being among the best the order had ever produced, and he killed all but 1 of them.
Originally posted by Ultra Omega
No he wasn't, not in the sense that you're indicating at least, and even if that were the case, Nihilus contradicts it. He has such a level of power that he perceives the universe differently than other beings. His mere presence kills and bends beings to his will. He was able to kill the life on an entire planet in what can be perceived as very quickly and with very little effort required given the action was described as "with a word." Nihilus>>> Darth Sidious.
Apparently, the New Essential Chronology, Ultimate Visual Guide, and the Dark Empire source book each have quotes indicating that Sidious is the strongest.
Originally posted by Ultra OmegaYes he was, Page 109 from the Dark Empire sourcebook:
No he wasn't, not in the sense that you're indicating at least, and even if that were the case, Nihilus contradicts it. He has such a level of power that he perceives the universe differently than other beings. His mere presence kills and bends beings to his will. He was able to kill the life on an entire planet in what can be perceived as very quickly and with very little effort required given the action was described as "with a word." Nihilus>>> Darth Sidious.
"Palpatine has risen from the dead. The most powerful Sith Lord who ever lived had returned."
Empire's End, one of the Sith spirits: "He gave up everything to the Dark Side long ago. He has become the greatest who ever lived. He is the strongest who ever lived....I say we give what he wishes."
Star Wars Insider, Kevin J. Anderson, upon asked if he ever intended his Sith to be stronger than the OT sith: "No. Exar Kun, Naga Sadow and the others are on a firmly lower tier than Emperor Palpatine."
On TFN.net, official response to the strongest Sith: "Palpatine at his peak."
Essential Chronology: "the most powerful Sith who had ever lived, Emperor Palpatine had returned from the grave."
Now you know comics so you'll be well versed in people calling narrative hyperbole. Take into note these feats along with those quotes:
Palpatine learned a Force Storm. It is is an attack that rips apart the fabric of existence and space-time. It can do everything from create a wormhole to move a person lightyears to ravage the surface of a planet to annihilate starfleets. Palpatine uses Force lightning with enough power to kill 100 augmented Strormtroopers effortlessly. Same lightning reduced 3 dark siders strong enough to resurrect Darth Maul to charred skeletons.
His force storm is far more powerful than nihilus bond breaking ability.
Oh and what happens when sidious uses the fallanasi technique? His bond gets hidden, nihilus cannot see/sense/touch/destroy it and then sidious can just proceed to kill him
@Pwned61
I think the exile is powerful as of kotor 2 but not exactly a powerhouse seeing she killed the 3 sith lords under circumstances
Originally posted by Violent2Dope
1. Okay, you are right, he used a combo of Force Lightning, Force Drain(both at the same time in fact), and then thru him while still doing both(which is really KEWL!). Even so, Sidious>Nihilus, fact.
No, it's not.
2. Sion is a big emo pussy.
Yes, and what exactly does Traya have to do with how Nihilus overpowered him?
3. Lol, Nihilus let him live, he could have easily ended his "immortality".
As unsupported as it gets. Nihilus wouldn't have been letting him live yet dish out the mega ownage that he had just dished out. He was clearly going for the kill.
4. Yeah, he was canonically stated in several things to be>any Sith, and even GL himself said it I believe. I would love to agree with you on this, believe me, but logic and reason prevents me.
No, what prevents you is popular consensus. As much is obvious. Anyway, didn't you ever stop and consider that Nihilus doesn't truly qualify as a Sith (none of the KotOR Sith Lords do)? Nowhere in canon is Revan's Order (which is essentially what the Sith Triumvirate was spawned from) shown to have been ordained by any previous Sith Lord, or shown to be anything more than simple pretenders. The fact that the "True Sith" were still around whilst the Sith Triumvirate were in power, yet had no proper alliance with them, would suggest that they were, at best, pseudo Sith. Now, prove that Nihilus qualifies as a True Sith Lord, and then supply all these canon quotes that supposedly prove that Sidious is the most powerful Sith Lord ever.
Originally posted by Violent2Dope
Well, she certainly killed Sion and Nihilus because of circumstances, but I don't think there were any when she killed Traya.
That would be correct. If anything, the Exile likely wouldn't have wanted to kill her former Mentor. Traya, however, quite clearly had no such problems, given that she wanted to know that the Exile was stronger than her so that she might have a chance against the True Sith.
Originally posted by Pwned61
How does the power make him unstoppable, you never provided any proof that he could function should he simply be decapitated, or that he can somehow use this power indefinitely.
Occam's Razor. Nihilus, he who has displayed the most destructive use of the force in the entire Mythos, unleashed a full on force onslaught onto Sion, and his entire body remained intact. The same goes with each cutscene that follows the Exile striking him down with her lightsaber.
Also, the power by it's nature affects only Sion himself, therefor the amount of force engeries expended can't possibly compare to Sidious using the force at a planetary scale,
LMAO. Ignore how concentrated the force would have to be on its target why don't you. By your logic, Dooku's lightning expends as much force energy as Palpatine's simply because the scale remains the same.
as Gideion said Sion's ability speaks more for his will or control of the force rather than his raw power.[quote]If that were the case, such can be channelld into other force abilities anyay, making Sion quite the threat, given he excels in those aras where noone else does.
[quote]His only show of skill in combat that we see is when he hacks a hand off of Traya, who's never been shown to posses any kind of impressive ability in close quarters combat.
Again, as said to Gideon, pure ability means jack. Sion possessed so much speed that he was able to slice off her hand in one move. The only factors, on her part, that would prevent such a thing would be speed and reaction time, both which draw from the force, which she has been shown to possess extraordinary ability with.
Nothing about the exile implies that she was any kind of powerhouse.
Did you not read my post? Her extreme learning rate and incredible force strength (augmented by every single person she ever killed) indicates as much. The fact that she was strong enough to defeat Traya after fighting through an entire Academy of darksiders and battle droids, as well as having to beat down Sion a few good times indicates as much.
At the very least she wouldn't have surpassed Yoda (stated to be the strongest jedi ever) who in turn was unable to overcome sidious.
Wrong. Firstly, that statement doesn't exist, and secondly, the Exile wasn't officially a Jedi at the time. The Order had disbanded, and she was somewhat of a grey Jedi.
What a load, you have no proof that he was holding back at all, in fact, considering his considerable blood lust and hate when Jedi are involved, it seems far fetched that he would hold back on anyone aside from Kreia herself.
Please try and read my arguments properly. I didn't say he would be holding back or anything, but that defending himself wouldn't exactly be his #1 priority.
So, using your logic, anyone who walks out of a fight in KOTOR without looking different must posses Sion's ability, since no character's model changes after a fight. Any
Anyone who was confirmed through dialogue to have been struck down with a lightsaber, yes. And that would be... oh, just Sion.
Force ability: Besides being stated to be the strongest (which for most people would be enough), he's also got huge displays of force power on a planetary level
Not only do those statements not actually exist, but absence of proof is not proof of absence. He may display more, however he's also been in far more sources. Displaying more itself doesn't mean that he's more powerful.
Battle prowess: He faced a team of 4 Jedi masters, all of whom were hailed as being among the best the order had ever produced, and he killed all but 1 of them.
Speaks nothing for his pure prowess. It was his speed that enabled him to do such a thing. Know what you're talking about.