Classic MM vs. CURRENT LT

So since TOAA was never mentioned he didn't exist?

So tell me, who retconned MM and beyonder into their current stations?

ermm

Should we even get into the fact that a retcon means that they were in continuity ALWAYS the power level they currently are?

Meaning that classic MM and Classic Beyonder technically don't exist?

So who wins between LT and nothing? LT because he can destroy the nothing by creating somethin in its place.

Originally posted by Creshosk
So since TOAA was never mentioned he didn't exist?

The point is not whether or not TOAA existed, the point is what the writers wanted to convey as to how powerful CB and CMM were at that time.
If we want to go and assume that TOAA existed then I see where we run into problems with LT. If TOAA existed then how could Beyonder be above LT as LT is empowered by TOAA and TOAA is supposed to be exactly that, THE ONE ABOVE ALL.

Originally posted by Creshosk
So tell me, who retconned MM and beyonder into their current stations?

ermm

Should we even get into the fact that a retcon means that they were in continuity ALWAYS the power level they currently are?

The writers retconned them. I don't see why you need to make this point. Different writers have different viewpoints and ideas about what characters can and can not do, much liked the varied viewpoints in these forums.

Originally posted by Creshosk
Meaning that classic MM and Classic Beyonder technically don't exist?

So who wins between LT and nothing? LT because he can destroy the nothing by creating somethin in its place.

Classic MM and Classic Beyonder do exist, they exist in the comics that they were created in. Currently they exist differently than when they started, hence people differentiating between Classic and Current versions of both characters. It is same thing with the several versions of any character like Superman.

If you don't think that CB or CMM are as strong as others fine, that is your opinion and I have no problem with that. However, don't start saying that they don't exist when they do in comics that were some of the best-selling comics in their day.

Originally posted by Cubicks
The point is not whether or not TOAA existed, the point is what the writers wanted to convey as to how powerful CB and CMM were at that time.
If we want to go and assume that TOAA existed then I see where we run into problems with LT. If TOAA existed then how could Beyonder be above LT as LT is empowered by TOAA and TOAA is supposed to be exactly that, THE ONE ABOVE ALL.

Originally posted by Cubicks
The writers retconned them. I don't see why you need to make this point. Different writers have different viewpoints and ideas about what characters can and can not do, much liked the varied viewpoints in these forums.

Obviously when the writers choose to... but storywise what made them not as powerful if they still exist? And Storywise when did TOAA come into existence?

Originally posted by Cubicks
Classic MM and Classic Beyonder do exist, they exist in the comics that they were created in. Currently they exist differently than when they started, hence people differentiating between Classic and Current versions of both characters. It is same thing with the several versions of any character like Superman.

Originally posted by Cubicks
If you don't think that CB or CMM are as strong as others fine, that is your opinion and I have no problem with that. However, don't start saying that they don't exist when they do in comics that were some of the best-selling comics in their day.

Originally posted by Creshosk
At the time it would have been "Because TOAA chose to have it that way obviously" now its "Beyonder and Molecule man have always existed at the present levels. The comics depicting otherwise are not in continuity and there fore shouldn't count.".

So When did TOAA come into existence? [/rhetorical question]

Obviously when the writers choose to... but storywise what made them not as powerful if they still exist? And Storywise when did TOAA come into existence?

So Storywise where did they go?

They don't exist. That's the nature of the retcon. Storywise, those comics never happened. Storywise they never existed.

I actually understand your points, but i have no problem with refering to characters that have been retconned as long as it is in the opening post, obviously i dont make threads like that,but i dont wish they were not made

Retconned or not LT wins

Originally posted by Creshosk
At the time it would have been "Because TOAA chose to have it that way obviously" now its "Beyonder and Molecule man have always existed at the present levels. The comics depicting otherwise are not in continuity and there fore shouldn't count.".

So When did TOAA come into existence? [/rhetorical question]

Obviously when the writers choose to... but storywise what made them not as powerful if they still exist? And Storywise when did TOAA come into existence?

So Storywise where did they go?

They don't exist. That's the nature of the retcon. Storywise, those comics never happened. Storywise they never existed.

Simply put, they were what the writers wanted them to be in that series and I will leave that at that.

You and I are not in a comic book storyline having this argument, I know you know where we are so I won't patronize you with being a smartass or asking rhetorical questions. Do they exist now as they did then? No. Whether or not they exist NOW in comic continuity is really not the issue, they existed because we have the comics to show for it and at that time and place they were depicted as Number 1 and Number 2 in the Marvel Universe.

This thread isn't MM versus CURRENT LT, it is CLASSIC MM versus CURRENT LT, much like there are other threads like Pre-Crisis Superman versus whoever and Superman versus whoever. They mean the same Superman at two different power levels.

Originally posted by Cubicks
Simply put, they were what the writers wanted them to be in that series and I will leave that at that.

You and I are not in a comic book storyline having this argument, I know you know where we are so I won't patronize you with being a smartass or asking rhetorical questions. Do they exist now as they did then? No. Whether or not they exist NOW in comic continuity is really not the issue, they existed because we have the comics to show for it and at that time and place they were depicted as Number 1 and Number 2 in the Marvel Universe.

This thread isn't MM versus CURRENT LT, it is CLASSIC MM versus CURRENT LT, much like there are other threads like Pre-Crisis Superman versus whoever and Superman versus whoever. They mean the same Superman at two different power levels.

You also must realize that since there are two versions of the retconned characters, that would mean that thier relative positions only count to the LT as depicted in the Retconned stories and NOT the LT that has always been 2nd only to God. You can't use the LT that exist outside of the story as a measuring stick of Classic MM or beyonder's power.

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
You also must realize that since there are two versions of the retconned characters, that would mean that thier relative positions only count to the LT as depicted in the Retconned stories and NOT the LT that has always been 2nd only to God. You can't use the LT that exist outside of the story as a measuring stick of Classic MM or beyonder's power.

I don't use LT as the measuring stick. I go by what the intent was of the writers at the time.
I think that your thread raises an important question about comparing any retcon character to any non-retcon character.

Originally posted by Creshosk
So since TOAA was never mentioned he didn't exist?

The thing is that PR MM was more powerful than the LT who has never been retconned. But because MM was retconned, the LT's only superior is TOAA because the retcon makes it as if the events never occurred. Had the retcon never happened to Classic Beyonder and Classic Molecule Man, the bio for the LT would not be the same. However, when a thread states the pre-retcon before the name, we go by the pre-retcon character.

Classic MM wins in a curbstomp.

Originally posted by Air Legend
Never said that. I just pointed out your fallacies. If you want to include TOAA in this thread, to make your ridiculous 2=2 argument valid, PR Beyonder would have to be TOAA. If you don't believe that, then Classic MM would be third to TOAA, not second, and LT would be fourth and so on. Thus, 2=2 would not apply.

The thing is that PR MM was more powerful than the LT who has never been retconned. But because MM was retconned, the LT's only superior is TOAA because the retcon makes it as if the events never occurred. Had the retcon never happened to Classic Beyonder and Classic Molecule Man, the bio for the LT would not be the same. However, when a thread states the pre-retcon before the name, we go by the pre-retcon character.

Classic MM wins in a curbstomp.

Your logic is as faulty as this post.

Let me enlighten you. The beyonder wasn't the one above all becuz he wasn't the creator of the marvel multiverse. sure he was more powerful than they were, but he wasn't god. He wasn't omnicient like the one above all is either. He wasn't in control. He was a creation of the one above all like everyone else. Given his power by the one above all.

Now YOu can't compare the LT to the classic molecule man with out realizing that becuz the story was retconned, that means it's a totally seperate story from any other stories dealing with the LT. SO you in fact have Two lt's. One that was in the retconned story, and the current LT. Based upon feats and displays of power, The current LT bitches classic molecule man. Current LT has held megaverses in his hand and shaped them to his will. The best the molecule man did on panel was fix some dmg here and there around the multiverse. and face a depowered beyonder.

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
Your logic is as faulty as this post.

Let me enlighten you. The beyonder wasn't the one above all becuz he wasn't the creator of the marvel multiverse. sure he was more powerful than they were, but he wasn't god. He wasn't omnicient like the one above all is either. He wasn't in control. He was a creation of the one above all like everyone else. Given his power by the one above all.

Now YOu can't compare the LT to the classic molecule man with out realizing that becuz the story was retconned, that means it's a totally seperate story from any other stories dealing with the LT. SO you in fact have Two lt's. One that was in the retconned story, and the current LT. Based upon feats and displays of power, The current LT bitches classic molecule man. Current LT has held megaverses in his hand and shaped them to his will. The best the molecule man did on panel was fix some dmg here and there around the multiverse. and face a depowered beyonder.

And I recommend reading Secret Wars II, issue #9 in this case, so you can get your facts straight.

Originally posted by Air Legend
This fails. When we prove that Classic MM is greater than LT, you say the LT has been retconned. When we prove the LT has never been retconned, you scream that the LT is greater. When everyone says Classic MM wins in another thread, you make this same damn thread: WHo wins teH curreNt Lt or claSic MM? dur

And I recommend reading Secret Wars II, issue #9 in this case, so you can get your facts straight.

I"m sure by now you are feeling rather upset becuz you aren't proving anything. The proof is on my side. Since there was a retconning of not just the characters, but the events as a dream, that would mean that the LT depicted in the Dream, is NOT the same LT you try and use as a measuring stick of power to amp the pre retconned characters. The only things the characters have to stand on is thier feats. Not thier positions. Since They only have positions relative to the characters with in the dream sequence. Not anyone OUTSIDE of the dream sequence. You lose.

Originally posted by Creshosk
So Storywise where did they go?

They don't exist. That's the nature of the retcon.
Storywise, those comics never happened.
Storywise they never existed.

I have to disagree here a bit Cresh, (atleast concerning Beyonder & MM - SS I-II)
the entire Secret Wars I & II saga tie-ins and all, is canon.
Everything Beyonder and MM did, was canon.

Now certain specifics were re-told:

Like Beyonder did beat up the Celestails,
but now in the retcon, the Celestials allowed him to win to ease his transition into awareness,
see ... its the same depiction on panel, but with a spin.

Another spin is,
Beyonder at the end of the saga created/became a Universe that was like an ocean,
in comparison with the Infinite Multiverse which was a drop of water.
That was spun into a Universe, but weaker than Eternity.

There's literally maybe 2 or 3 more occurances and/or statements
that were truly retconned,
everything else is official.

Also,
alot of characters came from the SS series and are still active today,
like,
Titania
Volcana
Spiderwoman
Spidey's Black suit/Venom/Carnage

to name a few.

As for the battle:

LT is second to the Toaa/god,
but just like Toaa/god allowed,

Reed to devise a machine that managed to used the LT's powers against the LT,
Rune defy the LT's ruling over the IG (it was impossible for Warlock)
Protege copy the LT's power,
Scathan becoming an equal to the LT,
Thanos to gain enough power to actually absorb the LT,

just like that,

Toaa/god (Jim Shooter & Al Milgrom at the time)
allowed Beyonder & MM to be more powerful than the LT. 🙂

So now and forever ------ Classic Beyonder & MM > LT

Originally posted by Mr Master
As for the battle:

LT is second to the Toaa/god,
but just like Toaa/god allowed,

Reed to devise a machine that managed to used the LT's powers against the LT,
Rune defy the LT's ruling over the IG (it was impossible for Warlock)
Protege copy the LT's power,
Scathan becoming an equal to the LT,
Thanos to gain enough power to actually absorb the LT,

just like that,

Toaa/god (Jim Shooter & Al Milgrom at the time)
allowed Beyonder & MM to be more powerful than the LT. 🙂

So now and forever ------ Classic Beyonder & MM > LT

UM, Master, How can now and forever they be beyond the LT when HE wasn't in that story? That LT only had rule over a multiverse. The LT I know has held two megaverses with in his hand. Megaverses that would have to be part of what once was the beyonder if you go by the pre ret story. No way to wiggle out of that.

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
UM, Master, How can now and forever they be beyond the LT when HE wasn't in that story?
That LT only had rule over a multiverse.
The LT I know has held two megaverses with in his hand. Megaverses that would have to be part of what once was the beyonder if you go by the pre ret story. No way to wiggle out of that.

The LT had rule over all of Marvel then, as now,
but again, even the LT that has rule over the Omniverse Now,
got Reed putting a bfr on em,
got Protege copying his power,
got Scathan being presented as his equal or dare I say greater?
got Thanos gaining the power to erase him, and re-create him,
got LT bowing down to the final evolution of Mankind.

What are your excuses,
for all of these occurances depicted on panel and confirmed in bios?

I think Kubik said it best:

"Scale is an illusion"

Originally posted by Mr Master
The LT had rule over all of Marvel then, as now,
but again, even the LT that has rule over the Omniverse Now,
got Reed putting a bfr on em,
got Protege copying his power,
got Scathan being presented as his equal or dare I say greater?
got Thanos gaining the power to erase him, and re-create him,
got LT bowing down to the final evolution of Mankind.

What are your excuses,
for all of these occurances depicted on panel and confirmed in bios?

I think Kubik said it best:

"Scale is an illusion"

That would mean that Mxy who destroyed everything is at least equal to the classic beyonder then, since scale is nothing but an illusion. As for all of those showings, that means lil when comparing The LT of the omniverse, to the one of the multiverse. ANd if scale is an illusion, then the beyonder isn't all that hot shit since scale means nothing, and you so like to tout how his universe was so many times bigger than marvel. Scale is only an illusion when it suits your purposes.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Like Beyonder did beat up the Celestails,
but now in the retcon, the Celestials allowed him to win to ease his transition into awareness,
see ... its the same depiction on panel, but with a spin.

Revealing the puppetmaster destroys the illusion of there being an independant puppet.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Also,
alot of characters came from the SS series and are still active today,
like,
Titania
Volcana
Spiderwoman
Spidey's Black suit/Venom/Carnage

to name a few.

LT was retconned when it was revealled that he was second only to TOAA. A retcon doesn't always have to be like some major announcment. It doesn't have to be anything big or fancy.

When new information is revealed that adds onto or replaces the previous information, that previous perception based on the previous information has to change.

IF like the case above you LT is revealed to have let MM do what he did. it means that MM was never actually greater that LT. Sort of like an april fools joke revealed to say "I tricked you" LT was always greater than MM in continuity.

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
That would mean that Mxy who destroyed everything is at least equal to the classic beyonder then, since scale is nothing but an illusion. As for all of those showings, that means lil when comparing The LT of the omniverse, to the one of the multiverse. ANd if scale is an illusion, then the beyonder isn't all that hot shit since scale means nothing, and you so like to tout how his universe was so many times bigger than marvel. Scale is only an illusion when it suits your purposes. [/B]

Jeesh Nvr, you're insane dogs.

Originally posted by Creshosk
LT was always greater than MM in continuity.

I agree, but not between 84' & 90'

Originally posted by Creshosk
and the one where he beat them up without them allowing him to ceased to exist when it was revealed that they allowed him to. IT made it so the version that beat them up without them allowing to like he never existed.

Revealing the puppetmaster destroys the illusion of there being an independant puppet.

I didn't say those other things didn't exist. just the "pre-retcon" didn't exist. As that's the nature of the retcon. in continuity, they were always at the station they are now.

LT was retconned when it was revealled that he was second only to TOAA. A retcon doesn't always have to be like some major announcment. It doesn't have to be anything big or fancy.

When new information is revealed that adds onto or replaces the previous information, that previous perception based on the previous information has to change.

IF like the case above you LT is revealed to have let MM do what he did. it means that MM was never actually greater that LT. Sort of like an april fools joke revealed to say "I tricked you" LT was always greater than MM in continuity.

This is just terrible logic. If the writers state and show MM being greater than the LT, then MM is greater than the LT.