Cant be bothered to reply to that post but i'll just post this.
Originally posted by Mr. Slippyfist
Also, I found something that perfectly describes Thor's history.
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/Thor_2001_035_32.jpg
*read it*Taken from here:
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/Thor_2001_035_31.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/Thor_2001_035_32.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/Thor_2001_035_33.jpgAnd before you get into that... Thor knows who Gladiator is. 🙂
Why would Thor hold back? Because he f*cking can.
You didnt read it. Lets hear what Thor said: "Gladiator I have considered thee a comrade in-arms! But as thou hast repeatedly endangered mortal lioves, taking these to the very brink of death--- I can do this no more."
He didnt hold back beacuse he can he held back because they were friends. Are Champion and Thor friend? Did Champion threaten to destroy the world? Yes, therefore Thor wasnt holding back.
Originally posted by Mr. Slippyfist
I never said Superman does.Yes I did. She had time to say a lot of words.
Plus, are you comparing Runner's speed to Champion's?
All she did was trip him. 😬
What so now im gonna have to explain the relevance of mantis tripping Runner....nah man im not gonna do that.
Look you got some valid points but this is just dragging on too much but to be quite frank I think you are just belittling feats. This is dragging on too much and i'll just leave it as this.
Originally posted by tkitna
Well, its hard to imagine a non-jobbing Champion as he's jobbed in just about every appearance. Truthfully, he should be able to beat Superman to death rather easily. He's a better fighter, never tires, cant die, and is durable as hell.He's an Elder of the Universe and should pummel the kryptonian in my opinion.
Originally posted by Ouallada
Well, on-panel feats always take precedence over information fed to us by the writers via handbooks etc.
Its got nothing to do with Handbooks. You know who tha Watchers are you know who Eternals are and you know what they are capable of. The Elders are like a race in themselves.
Originally posted by Ouallada
Runner is above herald level because of what we have seen of him, in addition to what we are told of him.
Yes but its not just him look at the other and look at what they can do with the skills they possess. The Champion being a wimp is like Uatu losing to weaker beings, thats PIS because you know as a race Watchers are more powerful.
Originally posted by Ouallada
His blitzing of Thanos with some gems and his complete destruction of the surfer adds to the info we are given.
The gems didnt make him faster
Originally posted by Ouallada
Thus, we can safely say that Mantis tripping Runner was a low-showing bordering on PIS.
I disagree obvoulsy Runner wasnt going at top speed, but niether do Superman when he speedblitzes.
Originally posted by Ouallada
For Champion, we are told that he is supposed to be this and that, but his on-panel feats are pretty much a wash. For everything that we can read as a good feat there is another that reads as a low feat. I agree that he should definitely beat She-Hulk. However, this victory is because of the information that I know of him via hyperbole of sorts, and not because of his average feat level.
Im not sure what you mean exactly by hyperbole.
Thor got disqualified because he used his hammer in a boxing match..Thats cheating....Did anyone else have a weapon?...Have you ever seen a boxing match with one boxer holding a weapon?...Champion would have killed thor without his hammer in a HAND TO HAND FIGHT...THOR ONLY WINS HIS FIGHTS WITH HIS HAMMER NOT HIS FISTS..Thats why hes been knocked out by superman,gladiator,wonderman and many more when they removed his hammer...HYPERION was going to kill thor when he lost his hammer...Did you see the look on thors face when hulk told thor to fight him without his hammer???... without his hammer he is dead meat to a lot of bricks...BRINGING A HAMMER TO A BOXING MATCH..LMAO!!!!!....COWARD!!!!!!..FIGHT LIKE THE OTHERS..LMAO!!!!
Originally posted by james2099
Thor got disqualified because he used his hammer in a boxing match..Thats cheating....Did anyone else have a weapon?...Have you ever seen a boxing match with one boxer holding a weapon?...Champion would have killed thor without his hammer in a HAND TO HAND FIGHT...THOR ONLY WINS HIS FIGHTS WITH HIS HAMMER NOT HIS FISTS..Thats why hes been knocked out by superman,gladiator,wonderman and many more when they removed his hammer...HYPERION was going to kill thor when he lost his hammer...Did you see the look on thors face when hulk told thor to fight him without his hammer???... without his hammer he is dead meat to a lot of bricks...BRINGING A HAMMER TO A BOXING MATCH..LMAO!!!!!....COWARD!!!!!!..FIGHT LIKE THE OTHERS..LMAO!!!!
To be fair Champion must have seen him with the hammer but didnt do anything until he got hit with it. I still think he would have lost the fight because even then the blow didnt hurt him that much and Thor had trouble hitting him.
Originally posted by AlfheimIts got nothing to do with Handbooks. You know who tha Watchers are you know who Eternals are and you know what they are capable of. The Elders are like a race in themselves.
It doesn't just refer to handbooks. Writers give us info through the omniscient narrator, handbooks, dialogue and so on. A lot of levels for obscure characters are established at least partially by these means. However, on-panel > fed information. That was what I was trying to say.
Originally posted by Alfheim
Yes but its not just him look at the other and look at what they can do with the skills they possess. The Champion being a wimp is like Uatu losing to weaker beings, thats PIS because you know as a race Watchers are more powerful.
Well, even within races and creature types there are obvious distinctions. Anyone who believes in the theory of evolution will attest to this. Not all the elders have the same levels of power, and their feats serve to establish what ambiguous information cannot. For example, you could say that Superman has a better resistance to magic than most other Kryptonians do. As an extension, he is invariably a Kryptonian himself, but that doesn't mean that an entity that beats Superman beats every other Kryptonian, and vice versa. We do not generalise across races in the real world, and we should not start here.
Originally posted by AlfheimThe gems didnt make him faster
I'm sure people would interpret this differently, but I generally agree with you. This shows exactly how capable the runner is, and shows that he is above surfer level, and closer to THanos. However, the runner's own levels should not be used as a proxy for Champion's own level, just like we do not use Elijah Wood as a proxy for the entire male population.
Originally posted by AlfheimI disagree obvoulsy Runner wasnt going at top speed, but niether do Superman when he speedblitzes.
Hence the low showing that borders on PIS. I tend to give this feat less weight when arguing for the runner though.
Originally posted by AlfheimIm not sure what you mean exactly by hyperbole.
Hyperbole may not have been the correct word. Think of it more as information that has been disseminated from the writers, but which has not been proven through feats of any sort. We know what Champion can do theoretically through the power primordial and his mastery of fighting arts, but have rarely seen most of his abilities shown to a large scale through feats (his best ones are with pg). His known feats aren't really anything to crow about, to be honest.
Oh, and don't worry about the aggression. I understand.
Originally posted by Ouallada
It doesn't just refer to handbooks. Writers give us info through the omniscient narrator, handbooks, dialogue and so on. A lot of levels for obscure characters are established at least partially by these means. However, on-panel > fed information. That was what I was trying to say.
Ok
Originally posted by Ouallada
Well, even within races and creature types there are obvious distinctions. Anyone who believes in the theory of evolution will attest to this. Not all the elders have the same levels of power, and their feats serve to establish what ambiguous information cannot. For example, you could say that Superman has a better resistance to magic than most other Kryptonians do. As an extension, he is invariably a Kryptonian himself, but that doesn't mean that an entity that beats Superman beats every other Kryptonian, and vice versa. We do not generalise across races in the real world, and we should not start here.
I see what your saying but let me elaborate. Not all Kryptonians are the same but you expect all kryptonians to have certain characteristics to a certain degree. The thing with the Elders is that they dont all have the same power levels but they are all good at what they do. For example The Collector could probably get beaten by Rick Jones but like his name say he has a massive collections of artifacts, aleins, tech etc, hes not rubbish at collecting. Having an Elder that has dedicated his life to MA being crap is like having a Watcher at herald level.
Originally posted by Ouallada
I'm sure people would interpret this differently, but I generally agree with you. This shows exactly how capable the runner is, and shows that he is above surfer level, and closer to THanos. However, the runner's own levels should not be used as a proxy for Champion's own level, just like we do not use Elijah Wood as a proxy for the entire male population.
Well to be fair im not using The Runner as a porxy for Champion im using all the Elders. We would not expect all Kryps to be as powerful as Superman but I think we would expect all Krptonians to have a certain level of power.
Furthermore I think Jim Starlin basically ruined The Elders not just Champion. When you think about it its a whole load of PIS becaue obvoulsy the writer wanted to find a way for the Surfer to beat more powerful characters.
1. I dont think its PIS for Mantis to trip up Runner, but he could have got back on his feet and kicked her ass.
2. Why didnt Grandmaster do anything? Hes probably even more powerful than Runner and is arguably skyfather level.
3. Why didnt Contemplator do anything hell Contemplator is also arguably skyfather.
4. Jim Starlin obvoulsy read Champions first appearnce were he pawned the heroes and somehow enabled SS to beat Champion with no explanation. Also in the Thanos Quest he made Champion forget that he could teleport objects and perhaps from that means save himself from being stranded.
5. Why is the Gardener a character who has constantly been shown as good guy suddenly turned to evil with no explantion?
The further you analyse it not just with Champion but the whole thing was just crap writing.
Originally posted by Ouallada
Hence the low showing that borders on PIS. I tend to give this feat less weight when arguing for the runner though.
Well I think its a low showing not PIS. Bare in mind Mantis has breifly outrun a bullet after it has been fired and KOed an enraged Quicksilver, now I know that these feats are below tripping the Runner but it shows she can be pretty fast. Also bare in mind she is a cosmic level MA. Top tier MAs like Cap and Wolverine have used their skills to counter speedsters its logical that an MA with more skill could trip and even faster speedster. Runner obvoulsy underestrimated her as well, but he should have just got to his feet and kicked her ass.
Originally posted by Ouallada
Hyperbole may not have been the correct word. Think of it more as information that has been disseminated from the writers, but which has not been proven through feats of any sort. We know what Champion can do theoretically through the power primordial and his mastery of fighting arts, but have rarely seen most of his abilities shown to a large scale through feats (his best ones are with pg). His known feats aren't really anything to crow about, to be honest.Oh, and don't worry about the aggression. I understand.
Ok.
Theres this as well.
http://img165.imageshack.us/my.php?image=silversurfer198700520sm9.jpg
But despite this SS beat Champion terrible just terrible....
Originally posted by AlfheimI see what your saying but let me elaborate. Not all Kryptonians are the same but you expect all kryptonians to have certain characteristics to a certain degree. The thing with the Elders is that they dont all have the same power levels but they are all good at what they do. For example The Collector could probably get beaten by Rick Jones but like his name say he has a massive collections of artifacts, aleins, tech etc, hes not rubbish at collecting. Having an Elder that has dedicated his life to MA being crap is like having a Watcher at herald level.
Agreed about the level of general ability. That is what I was talking about, with Champion getting many wins accorded on this forums precisely because of what we associate with his race, in addition to fed information. However, if feats override preconceptions of Champion's level, then we cannot ignore them and need to factor them in. I would sooner argue that Champion's level is an outlier compared to the rest of his race than to ignore his inconsistent feats.
Originally posted by Alfheim
Well to be fair im not using The Runner as a porxy for Champion im using all the Elders. We would not expect all Kryps to be as powerful as Superman but I think we would expect all Krptonians to have a certain level of power.Furthermore I think Jim Starlin basically ruined The Elders not just Champion. When you think about it its a whole load of PIS becaue obvoulsy the writer wanted to find a way for the Surfer to beat more powerful characters.
1. I dont think its PIS for Mantis to trip up Runner, but he could have got back on his feet and kicked her ass.
2. Why didnt Grandmaster do anything? Hes probably even more powerful than Runner and is arguably skyfather level.
3. Why didnt Contemplator do anything hell Contemplator is also arguably skyfather.
4. Jim Starlin obvoulsy read Champions first appearnce were he pawned the heroes and somehow enabled SS to beat Champion with no explanation. Also in the Thanos Quest he made Champion forget that he could teleport objects and perhaps from that means save himself from being stranded.
5. Why is the Gardener a character who has constantly been shown as good guy suddenly turned to evil with no explantion?The further you analyse it not just with Champion but the whole thing was just crap writing.
I think a lot of it, once again, is because of the abovementioned fed information, which means that we subconsciously emphasise feats that are in accordance with said preconceptions and attribute the rest to PIS and crappy writing. There obviously was some poor writing, but to be honest surfer has beaten a lot of powerful characters. It just swings both ways, I guess. As for Grandmaster and Contemplator, it could be because their specialised abilities are more of a tactical nature than a proactive, battle-oriented nature?
Originally posted by Alfheim
Well I think its a low showing not PIS. Bare in mind Mantis has breifly outrun a bullet after it has been fired and KOed an enraged Quicksilver, now I know that these feats are below tripping the Runner but it shows she can be pretty fast. Also bare in mind she is a cosmic level MA. Top tier MAs like Cap and Wolverine have used their skills to counter speedsters its logical that an MA with more skill could trip and even faster speedster. Runner obvoulsy underestrimated her as well, but he should have just got to his feet and kicked her ass.
It definitely is a low showing. I guess it could be PIS at a stretch if someone were to argue that way, but I generally subscribe to the view of it being a low showing too.
Originally posted by Yowsa
Superman. If Thing can break his ribs then Supes can break his face.
Thats PIS because he took a a blow from Thors hammer and was fine the next panel.
Originally posted by Galan007
Nah...😖hifty:
Well its non-jobbing so really it relates to his first appearance and his fight with SS.
