Originally posted by ExodusCloak
But at the end of the day he's still from an alternate timeline is he not?
it's just a way of overcoming the "Grandfather Paradox" that's all, so that Maestro could genuinely be a threat to Prof Hulk, or else Maestro would never have dared break his neck (ooh I love English grammar, that sentence makes more sense misread than it does read correctly!).
also Maestro was telling Hulk that they (both he and his younger self) are effectively immortal, since Maestro came back from total obliteration.
Hulk's just never been killed before, so he never knew if he could survive that kind of destruction.
Originally posted by janus77
not quite so cut and dried though, since the timeline split off at the point where Prof Hulk was chucked into the future.it's just a way of overcoming the "Grandfather Paradox" that's all, so that Maestro could genuinely be a threat to Prof Hulk, or else Maestro would never have dared break his neck (ooh I love English grammar, that sentence makes more sense misread than it does read correctly!).
also Maestro was telling Hulk that they (both he and his younger self) are effectively immortal, since Maestro came back from total obliteration.
Hulk's just never been killed before, so he never knew if he could survive that kind of destruction.
But AoA also split off from 616 when Xavier died. Would that make the AoA feats viable?
And there's a What if which is a mirror universe to 616 would that make Glads breaking adamantium viable?
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Yes, he is. But people transfer GL feats between characters . . .
From the debates I've seen there are a lot of people who take the GL's creativity and skill into account as well. 😬
Originally posted by ExodusCloak
But AoA also split off from 616 when Xavier died. Would that make the AoA feats viable?
And there's a What if which is a mirror universe to 616 would that make Glads breaking adamantium viable?
it's not as if Maestro received some new powers or an upgrade (if you're gonna mention the nukes, it might be worth pointing out that any and all Hulks can access an infinite amount of energy anyway... the nukes just made Maestro's base-level higher).
all that really is different between Maestro and regular Hulk is the interaction of circumstances, rather than some specific upgrade.
Originally posted by janus77
I can't speak to those instances, since I don't have the comics to refer to the context but with FI and Maestro there's no discernible difference in the abilities and powers of the Hulk and Maestro aside from Maestro's increased base-level strength.it's not as if Maestro received some new powers or an upgrade (if you're gonna mention the nukes, it might be worth pointing out that any and all Hulks can access an infinite amount of energy anyway... the nukes just made Maestro's base-level higher).
all that really is different between Maestro and regular Hulk is the interaction of circumstances, rather than some specific upgrade.
Regardless though it would still make mean Maestro is from an alternate timeline. The Glads from the What if would have the same powerset as the Glads from 616 due to it being a mirror universe of 616. If we're excepting that Maestros feats are viable WWH Hulk feats then Gladiator breaking adamantium should also be excepted. 😬
Heck the Glads feat should be more viable then the Maestro feat because there is no way to compare Maestro and WWH base levels.
there are ways of comparing base-levels of Maestro and WWH arc Hulk.
Prof. Hulk is established as a very weak version of Hulk, he needed time to really get into a battle with Maestro and was holding his own once he was angry enough - he got tricked by Maestro, which is why Maestro managed to break his neck.
WWH is the strongest that Hulk's ever been, that includes Prof. Hulk fighting Maestro since Prof. Hulk is from the regular 616 timeline (he was returned to it, along with Maestro, remember).
thus Prof. Hulk at a certain level of rage = Maestro <<<< WWH when he came to Earth, which is several orders of magnitude <<< WWH when Rick Jones is speared by Meik.
Originally posted by janus77
there are ways of comparing base-levels of Maestro and WWH arc Hulk.
Prof. Hulk is established as a very weak version of Hulk, he needed time to really get into a battle with Maestro and was holding his own once he was angry enough - he got tricked by Maestro, which is why Maestro managed to break his neck.WWH is the strongest that Hulk's ever been, that includes Prof. Hulk fighting Maestro since Prof. Hulk is from the regular 616 timeline (he was returned to it, along with Maestro, remember).
thus Prof. Hulk at a certain level of rage = Maestro <<<< WWH when he came to Earth, which is several orders of magnitude <<< WWH when Rick Jones is speared by Meik.
So would Prof. Hulk at a certain level of rage = Maestro in terms of healing factor and durability as well? And does that mean that Gladiator can break Wolverines adamantium now? And Magneto can rip Apocalypse in half?
Originally posted by ExodusCloak
So would Prof. Hulk at a certain level of rage = Maestro in terms of healing factor and durability as well? And does that mean that Gladiator can break Wolverines adamantium now? And Magneto can rip Apocalypse in half?
Originally posted by ExodusCloak
So would Prof. Hulk at a certain level of rage = Maestro in terms of healing factor and durability as well? And does that mean that Gladiator can break Wolverines adamantium now? And Magneto can rip Apocalypse in half?
Maestro was implemented into the 616 universe,he was the one who inhabited the Destroyer's body when Hulk fought it.
Originally posted by strengthkills
Maestro was implemented into the 616 universe,he was the one who inhabited the Destroyer's body when Hulk fought it.
We have AoA characters entering the 616 Universe as well. The point being Maestro is a Hulk who is from a different timeline other then 616. If you're using him as a separate character to the Hulk then it's understandable.
However if for some reason KMC has this loophole(Which never occured to me before) where Maestros feats are viable Hulk feats then I don't see the reason why Mirror Universe Gladiator breaking adamantium or AoA Magneto ripping Apocalypse in half shouldn't count as well. 😬
And then would that make HoM feats viable as well? And DoFP feats viable? And then the new timeline in the Messiah Complex viable? And then whatever stupid timeline Bishop is from viable?
we can go round and round in circles indefinitely because you are repeating yourself, looking for loopholes where there are none.
the point is 1) Maestro confirms that Hulk (616) has the same capabilities and same relation to 'death' as he does, IN the regular 616 timeline, thus taking care of the feat you so dearly desire to consign to the scrap heap and 2) Maestro's strength, though formidable, is inferior to WWH arc Hulk and 3) WWH arc Hulk and Maestro Hulk are the SAME character just in 2 different circumstances.
there's nothing added or changed in the being of Maestro (just a different set of circumstances) that a regular Hulk would not possess. if you want to make an argument that Maestro has demonstrated an ability that Hulk does not possess, provide some evidence first.
Originally posted by janus77
we can go round and round in circles indefinitely because you are repeating yourself, looking for loopholes where there are none.the point is 1) Maestro confirms that Hulk (616) has the same capabilities and same relation to 'death' as he does, IN the regular 616 timeline, thus taking care of the feat you so dearly desire to consign to the scrap heap and 2) Maestro's strength, though formidable, is inferior to WWH arc Hulk and 3) WWH arc Hulk and Maestro Hulk are the SAME character just in 2 different circumstances.
there's nothing added or changed in the being of Maestro (just a different set of circumstances) that a regular Hulk would not possess. if you want to make an argument that Maestro has demonstrated an ability that Hulk does not possess, provide some evidence first.
It's the breaching of debate rules to use feats of an alternate timeline/reality version of a character for a 616 Character.
Which is why Magneto ripping up Apocalypse in AoA is not viable on these boards and niether is Mirror Universe Gladiator breaking Wolverines Adamantium Claw. Both Mirror Universe Gladiator and AoA Magneto have the same powersets as their 616 counterparts. They have the same capabilities, the same powersets and they are also the same character under two different circumstances. Yet those feats are disallowed. The same would apply to Maestro. If that was the case the Storm fans would have a point with their Elemental being Storm.
Originally posted by ExodusCloak
It's the breaching of debate rules to use feats of an alternate timeline/reality version of a character for a 616 Character.
Which is why Magneto ripping up Apocalypse in AoA is not viable of these boards and niether is Mirror Universe Gladiator breaking Wolverines Adamantium Claw. Both Mirror Universe Gladiator and AoA Magneto have the same powersets as their 616 counterparts. They have the same capabilities, the same powersets and they are also the same character under two different circumstances. Yet those feats are disallowed. The same would apply to Maestro. If that was the case the Storm fans would have a point with their Elemental being Storm.
what you're deliberately confusing is that this "alternative time line" argument falls the second you accept that Maestro and Prof. Hulk returned to regular 616 time line and continued the narrative of Hulk's powers and capabilities there.
what Maestro survived was annihilation IN the 616 time line, what Maestro tells Hulk is that they have the SAME relation with death (ie, they're functionally immortal), that they "always return" no matter how they're killed.
you bring up storm, magneto etc... because you want the alternative time line disallowed, fine. get rid of it, but you're still left with on-panel proof that Maestro resurrected from atoms/nuclear obliteration, that Maestro tells Hulk that they both share the same ability, that Maestro's the reason why Hulk can always hone-in on the site of the initial Gamma explosion ...
what does that change?
in sum:
Maestro is Hulk 100 years into the future, an in-definite time as Prof. Hulk's time-period is not explicitly given.
WWH arc Hulk is set some time after Prof. Hulk, having splintered off the Maestro future as a result of his (WWH arc Hulk/Prof. Hulk's) trip to the future.
WWH arc Hulk is >>>> Maestro in every facet of The Hulk's powerset. Prof Hulk was = Maestro during battle and was > a Maestro animated Destroyer too, for good measure.
Originally posted by janus77
[B]in either of the examples you mention, do the characters reintegrate into regular 616 timeline and state that they are the same as their 616 counterparts?what you're deliberately confusing is that this "alternative time line" argument falls the second you accept that Maestro and Prof. Hulk returned to regular 616 time line and continued the narrative of Hulk's powers and capabilities there.
what Maestro survived was annihilation IN the 616 time line, what Maestro tells Hulk is that they have the SAME relation with death (ie, they're functionally immortal), that they "always return" no matter how they're killed.
you bring up storm, magneto etc... because you want the alternative time line disallowed, fine. get rid of it, but you're still left with on-panel proof that Maestro resurrected from atoms/nuclear obliteration, that Maestro tells Hulk that they both share the same ability, that Maestro's the reason why Hulk can always hone-in on the site of the initial Gamma explosion ...
what does that change?
in sum:
Maestro is Hulk 100 years into the future, an in-definite time as Prof. Hulk's time-period is not explicitly given.WWH arc Hulk is set some time after Prof. Hulk, having splintered off the Maestro future as a result of his (WWH arc Hulk/Prof. Hulk's) trip to the future.
WWH arc Hulk is >>>> Maestro in every facet of The Hulk's powerset. Prof Hulk was = Maestro during battle and was > a Maestro animated Destroyer too, for good measure.
I have the Watcher to do that for me in the Mirror Universe and the narrative and context of the AoA timeline to do that for me as well.
Dark Beast is 616 Beast when the 616 timeline diverged to AoA after Xavier deaths when Legion travelled back in time and killed him by mistake. Being a mirror universe to 616 that Gladiator automatically has the same powerset as 616 Gladiator. AoA Magneto is in the same predicament as Maestro Hulk.
Which is what you're still not getting. Maestro is an alternate future version of the Hulk. So was AoA Magneto to 616 Magneto when the timeline diverged during the Legion Quest.
In fact by your logic every single What If issue which involves a diverging point in the 616 timeline would be credible because the characters would be identical in powersets, just subject to different circumstances.
My point doesn't fall. Because while Professor Hulk and Maestro Hulk returned to the 616 Timeline it does not change the fact that Maestro Hulk came from a different timeline and is an alternate timeline version of the Hulk. AoA ended when Xavier was saved from legion by another unit of time travellers (Bishop? IRRC) restoring the 616 timeline afterwards Sugarman, Dark Beast etc... entered the 616 timeline and are still present. That still doesn't change the fact that they came from an alternate reality.
Originally posted by ExodusCloak
I have the Watcher to do that for me in the Mirror Universe and the narrative and context of the AoA timeline to do that for me as well.
Dark Beast is 616 Beast when the 616 timeline diverged to AoA after Xavier deaths when Legion travelled back in time and killed him by mistake. Being a mirror universe to 616 that Gladiator automatically has the same powerset as 616 Gladiator. AoA Magneto is in the same predicament as Maestro Hulk.Which is what you're still not getting. Maestro is an alternate future version of the Hulk. So was AoA Magneto to 616 Magneto when the timeline diverged during the Legion Quest.
In fact by your logic every single What If issue which involves a diverging point in the 616 timeline would be credible because the characters would be identical in powersets, just subject to different circumstances.My point doesn't fall. Because while Professor Hulk and Maestro Hulk returned to the 616 Timeline it does not change the fact that Maestro Hulk came from a different timeline. AoA ended when Xavier was saved from legion by another unit of time travellers.(Bishop? IRRC)
They have the same powers though,which is what it boils down to.
Originally posted by strengthkills
They have the same powers though,which is what it boils down to.
So does the Wolverine that killed the Hulk in the What if in a divergent timeline. And so does the Gladiator from the mirror universe. And so does the AoA Magneto that killed Apocalypse. And so does every What if character that caused a divergence in the 616 Universe.