Originally posted by ExodusCloak
BTW That "Mind blast" was sketchy look at the page before and see the Hulks words here:
"I never know if those things are real or if I just think they're real."
He's referring to it being a purely psychic phenomenon.
Hulk hardly seems to have dodged that anyway. Leader was completely disoriented as well as shooting blind.
resist.
v.tr.
1. To strive to fend off or offset the actions, effects, or force of.
2. To remain firm against the actions, effects, or force of; withstand: a bacterium that resisted the antibiotic.
3. To keep from giving in to or enjoying.
I think it's safe (obvious) to say that Hulk resists psi-blasts pretty damned easily. WWH moreso.
pretty petty pedantry going on.
Hulk resists psi-blasts easily. it's on-panel and incontrovertible.
resistance implies overcoming the effects of something. such as resisting the charms of a femme fetale or resisting temptation (it must be tempting for it to be resistance rather than immunity).
quite shoddy trying to wangle out of that basic fact 😐.
Definitions 2 and 3 I have no problems with - but I don't see how withstanding the Leader's dodgeable mindblasts is any reflection on how MM's telepathy would behave. See definition 1, "to offset the action/force of."
Kutulu's interpretation in so far as I understand it: Hulk somehow filtered/impeded/prevented the bulk of a high level psiblast, such that it became a low level psiblast that affected the Hulk much less than what would have occurred due to an unimpeded/unfiltered/unprevented high level psiblast.
My interpretation: The psiblast in question was simply at the level depicted. There was no impedance or filtering or prevention process occurring of the psiblast. There is no unsubstantiated psychic dam. It was simply at a level insufficient to subdue the Hulk or impair his actions significantly.
Originally posted by janus77It's fine to quote denotation, but without context it's meaningless.
[b]resist.
v.tr.
1. To strive to fend off or offset the actions, effects, or force of.
2. To remain firm against the actions, effects, or force of; withstand: a bacterium that resisted the antibiotic.
3. To keep from giving in to or enjoying.I think it's safe (obvious) to say that Hulk resists psi-blasts pretty damned easily. WWH moreso. [/B]
Under all those definitions, that feat would be useless, because Martian Manhunter is leagues beyond anything the Leader can hope to accomplish telepathically.
However, what was implied, was that psiblasts simply have no effect on the Hulk, because it's mental energy, and the Hulk is nearly immune to telepathy, ergo he must be nearly immune to psiblasts. Which is why that particular scan was used, as it would be meaningless under any other possible definition or implication.
Hulk "resisted" a punch from Spider-Man, therefore Hulk will "resist" a punch from Superman just as easily?
Needless to say, what was implied, was completely and utterly wrong. X and EC have already stated reasoning, and if anyone still can't grasp this, they need to reread the last page or so.
what was implied, as far as I'm aware, was that Hulk has demonstrated a high level of resistance to the effects of a variety of psi/mental attacks, from a range of powerful individuals. I think that is beyond dispute, all else being the usual conjecture; including the conjecture that a) MM is "leagues beyond x" in terms of psi-blast powers and that thus b) MM would clearly beat/KO Hulk with such an attack.
we don't know the comparative abilities or at least, proof has not been offered to back up a) and, more pertinently b) Hulk's powers all escalate exponentially based upon his anger/stress levels and so it cannot blindly be asserted that a more powerful attack would have any significant effect.
turning to your example of Hulk "resiting" punches, the first thing that needs to be said is that what K- was demonstrating was Hulk's resistance to a range of mental/psi attacks, from a variety of powerful foes to address the idea that somehow psi attacks are a particular weakness in the armour of Hulk. so a better analogy would be Hulk has tagged various flying superheroes with projectiles, so Hulk could tag flying superhero x. it's not about orders of power, as far as I can see, but types of powers.
anyway, what are we saying here, that MM would win with psi-blasts/attacks? if his first one fails to KO the Hulk, the rest will only meet with greater, exponentially increasing resistance.
Originally posted by janus77
.so a better analogy would be Hulk has tagged various flying superheroes with projectiles, so Hulk could tag flying superhero x. it's not about orders of power, as far as I can see, but types of powers.
anyway, what are we saying here, that MM would win with psi-blasts/attacks? if his first one fails to KO the Hulk, the rest will only meet with greater, exponentially increasing resistance.
The issue is orders of power, simply because it is fact that Hulk is not immune to telepathic attacks. He may have shown resistance (not immunity) to the attacks of less powerful telepaths but he hasn't faced a telepath of the magnitude of Manhunter.
Manhunter has entered the minds of far more awesome and terriyfing minds than Hulk, where's the confidence that Hulk merely shrugs off Manhunters attack with raw emotion alone? Manhunter's power is a big consideration here.
Originally posted by janus77And yet "K" quite a few times reiterated that psi-blasts were only mental power attacking the nerves, and thusly were not the same as mind reading, etc. So thusly it's entirely physical in every way it affects Hulk, and his other resistances don't apply. This also means my analogy was completely valid... unless you can find scans of Hulk being "immune" to telekinesis? TK is much closer to a psi-blast than mind reading is. They're both more analogous to a punch than to Hulk's ability to catch someone. And the idea was to point out the idiocy in resisting something so physical, just as one might "resist" a punch.
what was implied, as far as I'm aware, was that Hulk has demonstrated a high level of resistance to the effects of a variety of psi/mental attacks, from a range of powerful individuals. I think that is beyond dispute, all else being the usual conjecture; including the conjecture that a) MM is "leagues beyond x" in terms of psi-blast powers and that thus b) MM would clearly beat/KO Hulk with such an attack.we don't know the comparative abilities or at least, proof has not been offered to back up a) and, more pertinently b) Hulk's powers all escalate exponentially based upon his anger/stress levels and so it cannot blindly be asserted that a more powerful attack would have any significant effect.
turning to your example of Hulk "resiting" punches, the first thing that needs to be said is that what K- was demonstrating was Hulk's resistance to a range of mental/psi attacks, from a variety of powerful foes to address the idea that somehow psi attacks are a particular weakness in the armour of Hulk. so a better analogy would be Hulk has tagged various flying superheroes with projectiles, so Hulk could tag flying superhero x. it's not about orders of power, as far as I can see, but types of powers.
anyway, what are we saying here, that MM would win with psi-blasts/attacks? if his first one fails to KO the Hulk, the rest will only meet with greater, exponentially increasing resistance.
As for a) and b)...
a) was never challenged, afaik.
b) was never claimed by anyone. All that was said was that it would affect Hulk and throw him off as J'onn hits him with Martian Vision, actual telepathy, super strong punches, damages his inner organs, evades all his blows... etc. It all adds up. And, based on J'onn's far superior speed, it would all add up rather quickly.
Originally posted by AllanklesHulk is not immune to telepathic attacks but he is just about as resistant as you can get without being immune. Hulk has resisted telepathy from beings past J'onn and easily rivalling J'onn. The cosmic being, Stranger for example and most recently in WWH, Professor X. For you to think that J'onn is superior to those two shows laughable knowledge of Hulk's feats. Nobody has shown that J'onn could bring more unmitigated telepathic power to bear that a Professor X, post-M'Kraan upgrade.
The issue is orders of power, simply because it is fact that Hulk is not immune to telepathic attacks. He may have shown resistance (not immunity) to the attacks of less powerful telepaths but he hasn't faced a telepath of the magnitude of Manhunter.Manhunter has entered the minds of far more awesome and terriyfing minds than Hulk, where's the confidence that Hulk merely shrugs off Manhunters attack with raw emotion alone? Manhunter's power is a big consideration here.
Professor X has entered the mind of Dark Phoenix and Galactus and he was caught in a psychic feedback. The same would very likely happen to MMH, especially so, since he's gone all gooey when trying to stop Black Adam. And please don't act like J'onn is in a class by himself. J'onn couldn't defeat Despero with Aquaman's help. J'onn couldn't undo nor even detect Maxwell Lord's telepathic manipulations. His greatest feats are almost near on par with Professor X's greatest feats and his average feats are usually far below Professor X's average feats.
Originally posted by StylishSmurphHulk beats the crap out of telekinesis easier then he does telepathy. Sue's forcefields are some of the strongest telekinetic shields there are and he punched through them in 3 hits. And where does J'onn use telekinesis anyway? And you act like J'onn could use every single one of his powers in tandem in a blitz that would destroy the Hulk. Utterly laughable.
And yet "K" quite a few times reiterated that psi-blasts were only mental power attacking the nerves, and thusly were not the same as mind reading, etc. So thusly it's entirely physical in every way it affects Hulk, and his other resistances don't apply. This also means my analogy was completely valid... unless you can find scans of Hulk being "immune" to telekinesis? TK is much closer to a psi-blast than mind reading is. They're both more analogous to a punch than to Hulk's ability to catch someone. And the idea was to point out the idiocy in resisting something so physical, just as one might "resist" a punch.As for a) and b)...
a) was never challenged, afaik.
b) was never claimed by anyone. All that was said was that it would affect Hulk and throw him off as J'onn hits him with Martian Vision, actual telepathy, super strong punches, damages his inner organs, evades all his blows... etc. It all adds up. And, based on J'onn's far superior speed, it would all add up rather quickly.
Show me anywhere, where J'onn uses at least two of his powers at the same time with his super speed. If you can't, then continue living in your fantasy world. Superman had to be taught by Mongul to do that. After recognizing your botched assumptions, please note that the only times he's been seriously hurt are when his healing factor's shut off or his power is overloaded. Everything else has been tried and failed. When are you going to realize that MMH does not have the ability or power to do either? Whereas, J'onn has had his mind overwhelmed and has been beaten physically?
WWH 8/10.
Well,we know Jonn can travel at superspeed while using telepathy...
http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u131/jason-todd/Jimscomic157.jpg
We know he is capable of a super-strength speedblitz...
http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u131/jason-todd/Jimscomic167.jpg
http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u131/jason-todd/Jimscomic168.jpg
http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u131/jason-todd/Jimscomic169.jpg
He also takes apart these robots at super-speed..
http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u131/jason-todd/Jimscomic183.jpg
http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u131/jason-todd/Jimscomic184.jpg
http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u131/jason-todd/Jimscomic185.jpg
So he actually can and does speedblitz..
Also,If i recall,the person who came closest to stopping Hulk was Dr Strange with brute strength,no?well then..
http://img207.imageshack.us/my.php?image=japan59bu1ok.jpg
Should be no problem,and if need be jonn can just scoop Hulk up and toss him for an easy win.
Also,lets not forget Jonn's invisibiliy,,a state where hhe can still attack physically,and with MV(Which weaken Hulk)
http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u131/jason-todd/Jimscomic118.jpg
http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u131/jason-todd/Jimscomic119.jpg
(thyats some MV for you).
http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u131/jason-todd/Jimscomic201.jpg
(There he throws a punch while invisible)
Basically,saying Jonn can't put Hulk down is....just,wrong.
The people that came closest to stopping WWH were the New X-Men when Elixir overloaded his healing factor, the Gamma Corps using a poison to reduce his power levels, and Sentry overloading him with his power. And J'onn isn't doing any of that.
So not only do you not have any scans of J'onn using more than two of his powers while using superspeed, you don't even have a scan of J'onn using more than one power at the same time he is using superspeed. Thanks for demonstrating that even you, probably one of the most avid fans of Martian Manhunter cannot support what MMH fanboys have been trying to tout all along. The absence speaks volumes and should give good pause to anybody who thinks J'onn could combine his powers all in one blinding blitzing assault.
Invisibility, yay. Unless Martian Manhunter punches harder then Sentry and Zom Strange, J'onn would do nothing but anger WWH. And before I address your point that he could use his Martian vision while invisible, I'd like to see a scan of that. And since when does Martian vision have the magical ability of automatically weakening World War Hulk? Either way, if you think his Martian vision is leagues above what was thrown at him in the 'World War Hulk' storyline, then that's your cup o tea laced with delusional fantasies. Just wrong.
At least you're stepping away from the telepathy route. Shows some sense. I don't think you're a fanboy, but I think you fail to see what was necessary to put WWH down, whereas J'onn has been beaten down through telepathic strain and physical power.
WWH 8/10.
Originally posted by *T*MMH would not break Terrax's axe with his hands. MMH would not stalemate Photon. MMH would not beat the Collective. MMH would not overload Absorbing Man. MMH would not take the punishment that Sentry was soaking up against WWH.
MM >>> Sentry.
For pure power and durability, Sentry >>> MMH.
EDIT: Although in a 1v1 fight, I think MMH would take advantage of Sentry's agoraphobia and schizophrenia... but off topic.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0That wasn't the point of mentioning telekinesis at all.
Hulk beats the crap out of telekinesis easier then he does telepathy. Sue's forcefields are some of the strongest telekinetic shields there are and he punched through them in 3 hits. And where does J'onn use telekinesis anyway? And you act like J'onn could use every single one of his powers in tandem in a blitz that would destroy the Hulk. Utterly laughable.Show me anywhere, where J'onn uses at least two of his powers at the same time with his super speed. If you can't, then continue living in your fantasy world. Superman had to be taught by Mongul to do that. After recognizing your botched assumptions, please note that the only times he's been seriously hurt are when his healing factor's shut off or his power is overloaded. Everything else has been tried and failed. When are you going to realize that MMH does not have the ability or power to do either? Whereas, J'onn has had his mind overwhelmed and has been beaten physically?
WWH 8/10.
Go back.
Read my post.
Do your very, very best to formulate an argument that actually addresses what I brought up.
And no, I don't act like J'onn could do everything at once. I believe I said that he could alternate quickly... which he has done in the past. Except with things like strength, speed, telepathy, shifting, phasing, etc. When he's used at least two at once, sometimes more in quick succession, which is what would be happening here. Hell, J'onn's matched physically people above WWH while having a separate TP battle with someone else.. this isn't going to be a problem.
Everything else has been tried, and failed? MMH style phasing, martian vision, psi blasts and shrinking in his brain then growing out of it has been tried? And everything else that was tried was tried within seconds of the previous damage?
My mistake.
Originally posted by Martian_mind
Well,we know Jonn can travel at superspeed while using telepathy...http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u131/jason-todd/Jimscomic157.jpg
We know he is capable of a super-strength speedblitz...
http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u131/jason-todd/Jimscomic167.jpg
http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u131/jason-todd/Jimscomic168.jpg
http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u131/jason-todd/Jimscomic169.jpgHe also takes apart these robots at super-speed..
http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u131/jason-todd/Jimscomic183.jpg
http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u131/jason-todd/Jimscomic184.jpg
http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u131/jason-todd/Jimscomic185.jpgSo he actually can and does speedblitz..
Also,If i recall,the person who came closest to stopping Hulk was Dr Strange with brute strength,no?well then..
http://img207.imageshack.us/my.php?image=japan59bu1ok.jpg
Should be no problem,and if need be jonn can just scoop Hulk up and toss him for an easy win.
Also,lets not forget Jonn's invisibiliy,,a state where hhe can still attack physically,and with MV(Which weaken Hulk)
http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u131/jason-todd/Jimscomic118.jpg
http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u131/jason-todd/Jimscomic119.jpg
(thyats some MV for you).http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u131/jason-todd/Jimscomic201.jpg
(There he throws a punch while invisible)Basically,saying Jonn can't put Hulk down is....just,wrong.
say because a few of those don't say he's using super speed (only showing it beyound all dought) does that mean he doesn't use super speed or isn't using it in that panel or does that only work for the hulk.
just to put my point into perspective MM does have a chance against WWH and may even have a majorty but he isn't 10/10 on hulk that only shows a discusting love for dc characters and either ignorance or hate for marvel characters. Oh and the phasing thing I wanted to address earlyer on and that would be that doomsday/brainac countered his phasing if he goes into another dimention that wouldn't make any sence.
Originally posted by StylishSmurph
That wasn't the point of mentioning telekinesis at all.Go back.
Read my post.
Do your very, very best to formulate an argument that actually addresses what I brought up.And no, I don't act like J'onn could do everything at once. I believe I said that he could alternate quickly... which he has done in the past. Except with things like strength, speed, telepathy, shifting, phasing, etc. When he's used at least two at once, sometimes more in quick succession, which is what would be happening here. Hell, J'onn's matched physically people above WWH while having a separate TP battle with someone else.. this isn't going to be a problem.
Everything else has been tried, and failed? MMH style phasing, martian vision, psi blasts and shrinking in his brain then growing out of it has been tried? And everything else that was tried was tried within seconds of the previous damage?
Jonn matching someone above WWH physically? Ridiculous. Even if jonns phasing is different from visons, it still yields the same results which hulk has resisted.
My mistake.
Originally posted by StylishSmurph
That wasn't the point of mentioning telekinesis at all.Go back.
Read my post.
Do your very, very best to formulate an argument that actually addresses what I brought up.And no, I don't act like J'onn could do everything at once. I believe I said that he could alternate quickly... which he has done in the past. Except with things like strength, speed, telepathy, shifting, phasing, etc. When he's used at least two at once, sometimes more in quick succession, which is what would be happening here. Hell, J'onn's matched physically people above WWH while having a separate TP battle with someone else.. this isn't going to be a problem.
Everything else has been tried, and failed? MMH style phasing, martian vision, psi blasts and shrinking in his brain then growing out of it has been tried? And everything else that was tried was tried within seconds of the previous damage?
My mistake.
😂
Originally posted by StylishSmurph
That wasn't the point of mentioning telekinesis at all.Go back.
Read my post.
Do your very, very best to formulate an argument that actually addresses what I brought up.And no, I don't act like J'onn could do everything at once. I believe I said that he could alternate quickly... which he has done in the past. Except with things like strength, speed, telepathy, shifting, phasing, etc. When he's used at least two at once, sometimes more in quick succession, which is what would be happening here. Hell, J'onn's matched physically people above WWH while having a separate TP battle with someone else.. this isn't going to be a problem.
Everything else has been tried, and failed? MMH style phasing, martian vision, psi blasts and shrinking in his brain then growing out of it has been tried? And everything else that was tried was tried within seconds of the previous damage?
My mistake.
um who has MM went against who is phsically above WWH and didnot get totally owned. Hum Doomsday (who is very debatable wither or not his is above WWH) oh wait he got owned every time he went up against any doomsday. Or how about despero (who physcally hasn't done anything to be above WWH) oh wait didn't despero not only over power J'ohn but dug his fingers into his head.
oh yeah I do understand why you brought up TK it was to despell the HULK can grab and break TP energy and your right.
