Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Meh, during the original Secret Wars Charles says that even passively Galactus has incredibly formidable mental defenses... which makes sense... being Galactus and all.
Right so this indicates that Big G must have put down his defnses because if he hadnt Xavier would have struggled.
http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t173/EndlessMike9/Hulk/hulkmentalresistanceproof.jpg
Anyway this scan states that Hulk resisted Xaviers TP.
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Looked like mind reading in the original page, but meh apparently looking at all the sad feelings was Charlie's attack.
I tell you what do you actually have the scans of him doing it?
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Martian Manhunter is a stronger telepath than Xavier anyway, and has about a dozen more Superman-esque abilities.
Some of his feats look like PIS. He seems to have some really powerful feats and then has problems with much lesser characters.........theres something wrong there.
Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Except all the Professor was shown to do in the previous issue was probe the Hulk and find out why he's here then get psychic feedback from the emotions of the Hulk. 😬
Scans?
Originally posted by janus77
Phasing is never going to work on The Hulk, he'll just increase in density and trap MM inside him, causing MM to die.he's trapped Vision before, he's also overcome - quite effortlessly - being phased into the ground whilst battling a plethora of X-fodder, including the mental attacks of Xavier.
TP attacks will similarly fail to get anywhere with him, his mind has proved to be more than resilient enough to shake off Xavier and others too (forgot who, but there was more than one attack upon him, during the exchange with the X-men).
all MM has is speed, flight and some defensive flexibility. they won't ever result in a win against The Hulk, but they're enough - perhaps - to stalemate for a duration (eventually MM will tire whereas Hulk never will - due to his ever increasing anti-fatigue HF).
How does increasing his muscle density prevent phasing from MM? You do realize that MM has no density whatsoever when he's phasing and as a result would be unaffected by any change in density on Hulk's part. That's why its called true phasing and not merely vibration of molecules.
He can phase through all manner of obects with varying degrees of density, Hulk increasing his muscle density won't do shit to Jonn, as he's physically intangible. That vision bs is just PIS. When you're intangible you're intangible, no physical pressure can change that. There's nothing in Hulk's physiology that will prevent MM's phasing. No elecctromagnetic aura, no force field, no nothing.
As far as TP goes, Hulk has no true TP resistance. He's mind is an open book, the only bs we ever get is that of telepaths trying to control Hulk and then being repulsed by his awesome rage.
Why shouldn't Jonn be able to tap into Bruce Banners psyche and calm the Hulk? Or just unleash a telepathic attack that'll have Hulk reeling or even passing out?
Hulk has no telepathic abilities, or specific telepathic defenses, it always boils down to his rage or his mind was too strong to control etc etc No mention of actually having actual telepathic defenses just a mind that seems too foreign for some of the telepaths that have faced him.
Jonn has looked into minds far more awesome and frightening than Hulk's, there no evidence that Hulk merely shrugs of Jonn telepathy. That's a ridiculous idea. Jonn's TP will affect Hulk in one way or another.
Originally posted by Alfheim
Scans?
The Cuckoos did not engage the Hulk, but under Emma's orders they continued blocking Xavier from using his powers for the remainder of the mini so he couldn't have possibly tried to mind control the Hulk after Issue #1.
Emma was in Diamond Form and loses her telepathy in that form and when she did use her telepathy in her human form she wasn't depicted as trying to use it on the Hulk. She acted as a mindlink for the X-Men.
She could have been refering to Xaviers little probe in issue #1 but apart from that instance no one else attempted to enter the Hulks mind in that mini. And if we do take it as mind control then that's only one type of telepathic attack. Everyone and their granny resists mind control.
Originally posted by ExodusCloak
The Cuckoos did not engage the Hulk, but under Emma's orders they continued blocking Xavier from using his powers for the remainder of the mini so he couldn't have possibly tried to mind control the Hulk after Issue #1.
Emma was in Diamond Form and loses her telepathy in that form and when she did use her telepathy in her human form she wasn't depicted as trying to use it on the Hulk. She acted as a mindlink for the X-Men.She could have been refering to Xaviers little probe in issue #1 but apart from that instance no one else attempted to enter the Hulks mind in that mini. And if we do take it as mind control then that's only one type of telepathic attack. Everyone and their granny resists mind control.
Its not a mental mind probe. He was attempting to mentally subdue him the thoughts were a sideaffect of him trying to control him.
Lets go through it:
1. "I know you're the strongest one physically but my strength lies in another area" ie "You might think you're a badass with your superstrength but my mental powers will **** you up"
2. "The Hulks mind has always been unique...diifficult to control" Does this not imply hes trying to control it and not simply mind probe?
3. "The rage like an elemntal force. I cant overcome it. And the feedback is envelopiong everyone" This implies that the feedback he is getting is not his intention.
Therefore Xaviers wasnt trying to mind probe that was an accident he was trying to subdue. Also the next issue states that what he was trying to do.
Furthermore Emma stated in black and white that she tried to control the Hulk so it must have been off panel.
Originally posted by ExodusCloakThey never actually blocked Xavier. Emma threatened that they would try to block his power if he interfered. But Xavier acquiesces and permits the X-Men to fight it their way and went on to attend to the wounded.
The Cuckoos did not engage the Hulk, but under Emma's orders they continued blocking Xavier from using his powers for the remainder of the mini so he couldn't have possibly tried to mind control the Hulk after Issue #1.
Originally posted by xmarksthespotThere are three reasons that support that Xavier was attempting to subdue/attack WWH mentally: 1) WWH was screaming in rage when Xavier used his powers; 2) Xavier was posturing, "My power lies in a different area..." which is more indicative of attacking rather then simply mind reading; and 3) Alfheim's scan of the prologue to WWH: X-Men #2 states Xavier attacked him mentally. Whatever you may think, the Hulk's mind and rage was simply too much for his telepathy to handle.
Xavier never attacked him during WWH afai can think. And Emma took diamond form rendering her telepathically powerless. The Stepford Cuckoos didn't enter the fray. So which multiple telepaths attacked him in WWH X-Men. 🤨And for some reason "stronger than ever" Xavier was effortlessly blocked by Emma.
Emma's feat of blocking Xavier's power needs to put into context. She didn't turn off his power. More likely, she prevented Xavier from controlling the X-Men and forcing them to give up. This blocking of mental powers does not necessarily mean that her powers are superior, she simply got the initiative in to protect the X-Men. This is exactly what happens in the ongoing 'Messiah Complex' storyline where she preemptively protects a squad from Sinister's telepathy. In that same battle, she is distracted, loses the initiative and Sinister prevents her from interfering again. I imagine the same would have happened in this situation. Had Xavier, from the start, decided to control Emma and the X-Men, he could have. But as most people have noted, he lost his will to fight and was willing to surrender. Emma simply got the initiative.
Originally posted by xmarksthespotI think it's important to note that the way Galactus countered Xavier in that encounter was by throwing all the negative emotions back at Xavier. So technically, negative emotions of a sufficient magnitude can overwhelm Xavier, be it the negative emotions of several billion Skrulls or Hulk's pure rage. Again, just a thought to allay the fears of PIS.
So apparently Xavier sucks now and "sad feelings" will do him in, just like "sad feelings" can apparently breach emotionless Emma's diamond form telepathic immunity. Huzzah! Never mind pushing the thoughts of a planet into Galactus, if Big G had been in a funk from being dumped or something then Xavier would have just keeled over.
Originally posted by AllanklesHulk has resisted that very attack and for you to argue PIS when it happened is an opinion but doesn't change the feat. Either way, in order for J'onn's intangibility to hurt the Hulk, he has to will his density back to original form. Presumably, this is how he would stick his arm into Hulk's skull and destroy it. But doing so would have dire consequences. J'onn's arm would most likely merge with Hulk's body. And we've already seen Hulk heal in moments from having his body merged. And furthermore, Hulk has healed from brain damage as well.
He can phase through all manner of obects with varying degrees of density, Hulk increasing his muscle density won't do shit to Jonn, as he's physically intangible. That vision bs is just PIS. When you're intangible you're intangible, no physical pressure can change that. There's nothing in Hulk's physiology that will prevent MM's phasing. No elecctromagnetic aura, no force field, no nothing.As far as TP goes, Hulk has no true TP resistance.
Jonn has looked into minds far more awesome and frightening than Hulk's, there no evidence that Hulk merely shrugs of Jonn telepathy. That's a ridiculous idea. Jonn's TP will affect Hulk in one way or another.
And your characterization that Hulk has no telepathy resistance is incorrect. Please visit the Hulk respect thread and scroll down to his Willpower section and look at the scans which consistently show that his elemental rage allows him to resist mental attacks from beings like; the Stranger, the Shaper of Worlds(a Cube being), Glorian, Loki, Nightmare, Onslaught etc. Those are only his more impressive ones. But if you take a look at the lesser feats, you'll see a constant theme that mental attacks are ineffectual against the Hulk and often times they backfire.
And again, we're dealing with amped, World War Hulk. Nearly all of the above feats that I've spoken of, were Hulk in his pre-World War Hulk days. Since this thread is J'onn against WWH, you need to admit that his healing factor is increased, his elemental rage is increased, his strength and durability is increased. So please put the above feats into perspective.
WWH 8/10
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
They never actually blocked Xavier. Emma threatened that they would try to block his power if he interfered. But Xavier acquiesces and permits the X-Men to fight it their way and went on to attend to the wounded.
There are three reasons that support that Xavier was attempting to subdue/attack WWH mentally: 1) WWH was screaming in rage when Xavier used his powers; 2) Xavier was posturing, "My power lies in a different area..." which is more indicative of attacking rather then simply mind reading; and 3) Alfheim's scan of the prologue to WWH: X-Men #2 states Xavier attacked him mentally. Whatever you may think, the Hulk's mind and rage was simply too much for his telepathy to handle.Emma's feat of blocking Xavier's power needs to put into context. She didn't turn off his power. More likely, she prevented Xavier from controlling the X-Men and forcing them to give up. This blocking of mental powers does not necessarily mean that her powers are superior, she simply got the initiative in to protect the X-Men. This is exactly what happens in the ongoing 'Messiah Complex' storyline where she preemptively protects a squad from Sinister's telepathy. In that same battle, she is distracted, loses the initiative and Sinister prevents her from interfering again. I imagine the same would have happened in this situation. Had Xavier, from the start, decided to control Emma and the X-Men, he could have. But as most people have noted, he lost his will to fight and was willing to surrender. Emma simply got the initiative.
I think it's important to note that the way Galactus countered Xavier in that encounter was by throwing all the negative emotions back at Xavier. So technically, negative emotions of a sufficient magnitude can overwhelm Xavier, be it the negative emotions of several billion Skrulls or Hulk's pure rage. Again, just a thought to allay the fears of PIS.
Hulk has resisted that very attack and for you to argue PIS when it happened is an opinion but doesn't change the feat. Either way, in order for J'onn's intangibility to hurt the Hulk, he has to will his density back to original form. Presumably, this is how he would stick his arm into Hulk's skull and destroy it. But doing so would have dire consequences. J'onn's arm would most likely merge with Hulk's body. And we've already seen Hulk heal in moments from having his body merged. And furthermore, Hulk has healed from brain damage as well.And your characterization that Hulk has no telepathy resistance is incorrect. Please visit the Hulk respect thread and scroll down to his Willpower section and look at the scans which consistently show that his elemental rage allows him to resist mental attacks from beings like; the Stranger, the Shaper of Worlds(a Cube being), Glorian, Loki, Nightmare, Onslaught etc. Those are only his more impressive ones. But if you take a look at the lesser feats, you'll see a constant theme that mental attacks are ineffectual against the Hulk and often times they backfire.
And again, we're dealing with amped, World War Hulk. Nearly all of the above feats that I've spoken of, were Hulk in his pre-World War Hulk days. Since this thread is J'onn against WWH, you need to admit that his healing factor is increased, his elemental rage is increased, his strength and durability is increased. So please put the above feats into perspective.
WWH 8/10
Smacked it. 👆 Isnt Stranger a powerful TP as well?
Originally posted by AlfheimThe Stranger is a cosmic entity and his telepathy has never really been measured. But he indeed has vast unmeasured telepathic powers. His feats and his involvement in the 'Infinity Gauntlet' put him up there in the cosmic hierarchy. Living Tribunal has commented that the Stranger has an unrevealed purpose in the cosmic hierarchy. And although I find it hard to swallow that he was destined to be the 4th face of the LT, I still easily put him above the Elders of the Universe. How far past that, is speculation.
Smacked it. 👆 Isnt Stranger a powerful TP as well?
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
They never actually blocked Xavier. Emma threatened that they would try to block his power if he interfered. But Xavier acquiesces and permits the X-Men to fight it their way and went on to attend to the wounded.
There are three reasons that support that Xavier was attempting to subdue/attack WWH mentally: 1) WWH was screaming in rage when Xavier used his powers; 2) Xavier was posturing, "My power lies in a different area..." which is more indicative of attacking rather then simply mind reading; and 3) Alfheim's scan of the prologue to WWH: X-Men #2 states Xavier attacked him mentally. Whatever you may think, the Hulk's mind and rage was simply too much for his telepathy to handle.Emma's feat of blocking Xavier's power needs to put into context. She didn't turn off his power. More likely, she prevented Xavier from controlling the X-Men and forcing them to give up. This blocking of mental powers does not necessarily mean that her powers are superior, she simply got the initiative in to protect the X-Men. This is exactly what happens in the ongoing 'Messiah Complex' storyline where she preemptively protects a squad from Sinister's telepathy. In that same battle, she is distracted, loses the initiative and Sinister prevents her from interfering again. I imagine the same would have happened in this situation. Had Xavier, from the start, decided to control Emma and the X-Men, he could have. But as most people have noted, he lost his will to fight and was willing to surrender. Emma simply got the initiative.
I think it's important to note that the way Galactus countered Xavier in that encounter was by throwing all the negative emotions back at Xavier. So technically, negative emotions of a sufficient magnitude can overwhelm Xavier, be it the negative emotions of several billion Skrulls or Hulk's pure rage. Again, just a thought to allay the fears of PIS.
Hulk has resisted that very attack and for you to argue PIS when it happened is an opinion but doesn't change the feat. Either way, in order for J'onn's intangibility to hurt the Hulk, he has to will his density back to original form. Presumably, this is how he would stick his arm into Hulk's skull and destroy it. But doing so would have dire consequences. J'onn's arm would most likely merge with Hulk's body. And we've already seen Hulk heal in moments from having his body merged. And furthermore, Hulk has healed from brain damage as well.And your characterization that Hulk has no telepathy resistance is incorrect. Please visit the Hulk respect thread and scroll down to his Willpower section and look at the scans which consistently show that his elemental rage allows him to resist mental attacks from beings like; the Stranger, the Shaper of Worlds(a Cube being), Glorian, Loki, Nightmare, Onslaught etc. Those are only his more impressive ones. But if you take a look at the lesser feats, you'll see a constant theme that mental attacks are ineffectual against the Hulk and often times they backfire.
And again, we're dealing with amped, World War Hulk. Nearly all of the above feats that I've spoken of, were Hulk in his pre-World War Hulk days. Since this thread is J'onn against WWH, you need to admit that his healing factor is increased, his elemental rage is increased, his strength and durability is increased. So please put the above feats into perspective.
WWH 8/10
^^ QFT, excellent post.
Originally posted by Alfheim
Its not a mental mind probe. He was attempting to mentally subdue him the thoughts were a sideaffect of him trying to control him.Lets go through it:
1. "I know you're the strongest one physically but my strength lies in another area" ie "You might think you're a badass with your superstrength but my mental powers will **** you up"
2. "The Hulks mind has always been unique...diifficult to control" Does this not imply hes trying to control it and not simply mind probe?
3. "The rage like an elemntal force. I cant overcome it. And the feedback is envelopiong everyone" This implies that the feedback he is getting is not his intention.
Therefore Xaviers wasnt trying to mind probe that was an accident he was trying to subdue. Also the next issue states that what he was trying to do.
Furthermore Emma stated in black and white that she tried to control the Hulk so it must have been off panel.
Looking at it again. I agree with the first part.
But I already covered that point by stating that everyone and their grandmother resists mind control. The fact that Xavier resorted to mind control instead of a synapse attack would be CIS on his part. Mind control resistance isn't going to save the Hulk from a telepath using their powers to it's fullest. He's resistant to mind control not immune to telepathy.
She stated it, yet it doesn't make any sense since she was in Diamond Form throughout her entire encounter with the Hulk. Any off panel scenes were she was brawling with the Hulk would have her in her Diamond Form. Once Madrox freed her from the ground she changed to Human Form and we were shown every scene up to the panel where she tells Syrin that. So unless she can use her powers in Diamond Form now...it really doesn't make any sense.
But that really doesn't matter because Mind Control practically always fails 9 times out of 10. eg Storm, Wolverine etc...Telepaths are more then that. And MM is certainly more then that.
So X would be right in saying that there weren't multiple telepathic attacks on the Hulk which is what I think the initial point was. The Cuckoos did not get involved. Even if we give the Emma one, we only get two attempts of mind control.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
They never actually blocked Xavier. Emma threatened that they would try to block his power if he interfered. But Xavier acquiesces and permits the X-Men to fight it their way and went on to attend to the wounded.
The point still stands that Xavier never tried telepathically attacking the Hulk after that pathetic attempt of mind control in issue #1.
There are three reasons that support that Xavier was attempting to subdue/attack WWH mentally: 1) WWH was screaming in rage when Xavier used his powers; 2) Xavier was posturing, "My power lies in a different area..." which is more indicative of attacking rather then simply mind reading; and 3) Alfheim's scan of the prologue to WWH: X-Men #2 states Xavier attacked him mentally. Whatever you may think, the Hulk's mind and rage was simply too much for his telepathy to handle.
To mind control yes. To give him an orgasm attack I'd beg to differ.
Emma's feat of blocking Xavier's power needs to put into context. She didn't turn off his power. More likely, she prevented Xavier from controlling the X-Men and forcing them to give up. This blocking of mental powers does not necessarily mean that her powers are superior, she simply got the initiative in to protect the X-Men. This is exactly what happens in the ongoing 'Messiah Complex' storyline where she preemptively protects a squad from Sinister's telepathy. In that same battle, she is distracted, loses the initiative and Sinister prevents her from interfering again. I imagine the same would have happened in this situation. Had Xavier, from the start, decided to control Emma and the X-Men, he could have. But as most people have noted, he lost his will to fight and was willing to surrender. Emma simply got the initiative.
I'd agree that, that feat can be interpreted two ways. Xavier stating "stop blocking my powers Emma" could be seen as either her blocking his powers or her shielding the X-Men from his mental attack.
But in the Messiah Complex it wasn't just Sinister. It was also Exodus(Carey confirmed it) and Lady Mastermind. And she would have had to have blocked Sinisters powers. Why you ask...well if it was just his telepathy then Sinister would have TK'd Angels ass a long time ago rather waiting for Emma to be cut off first. On top of that this occured from halfway around the world which makes the ordeal even more impressive.
Hulks resistant to mind control not immune to telepathy.
Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Looking at it again. I agree with the first part.But I already covered that point by stating that everyone and their grandmother resists mind control. The fact that Xavier resorted to mind control instead of a synapse attack would be CIS on his part. Mind control resistance isn't going to save the Hulk from a telepath using their powers to it's fullest. He's resistant to mind control not immune to telepathy.
The problem with Synapse attacks on Hulk is that his body is as invulnerable on the inside as it is on the outside, to top off with massive regeneration factor. He can regrow a brain stem in moments and survive Storm's full blast lightning which would fry most people's nerves cells but didn't even slow WWH down one bit. The most a synapse attack would do is momentarily stun him - at best.
WWH takes this 7/10. wwh is a massively amped version of the original savage hulk. HE is supposedly the most powerful version of the hulk meaning increased durability speed strength etc. HE is even stronger than onslaught fighting hulk who did something that almost 40 other heroes including THOR could not do and that is break full power onslaughts armour IMO one of if not the most powerful metals in the MU.
The savage hulk has resisted being controld by the stranger making MMs
tp a cakewalk. The vision did try to phase through hulk and nearly died after the attempt. MMs martian vision is certainly not strong enough to bother wwh. MM can only maintain supes level power for a short time so trieng to speedblitz wwh and other types of superman type powers wont be effective as he wont be able to maintain them long enough to do substantial damage to wwh who is extremely durable plus an ultra fast HF. A good way for MM to fight would be to turn invisible and wait for wwh to get bored and leave. Even with that hulk in the past has shown extrasensory perception and would probably still be able to sense him. Though mm is more versatile wwh
has counters to almost all of his powers
