Originally posted by KutuluThe problem with Synapse attacks on Hulk is that his body is as invulnerable on the inside as it is on the outside, to top off with massive regeneration factor. He can regrow a brain stem in moments and survive Storm's full blast lightning which would fry most people's nerves cells but didn't even slow WWH down one bit. The most a synapse attack would do is momentarily stun him - at best. [/B]
Who said anything about frying his synapses? The Hulk has both subconcious and conscious reflexes. Invulnerability won't protect him from an orgasm attack. It's a different type of telepathy. You're not attacking his conscious thoughts you're going after his passive(secondary) biological reflexes which he has no control over.
It's similar to why Sue never made Hulks retina invisible in their encounter which wouldn't have stopped him but it would have been a hinderance. Or why Kitty never submerged Hulk into the ground which would have killed him. WWH would have been over.
lol,
the phasing achieved nothing, not even temporary injury. and you think submerging his whole body would have killed him?
most likely it would be impossible to do, his body would move/rend whatever matter it was 'phasing' into, but even if it could be done, he gains extra-dimensional matter, what's to say that he wouldn't just regenerate all the tissue he needs? Maestro's comeback from atoms (or thereabouts) so ...
anyway, MM's got nothing with which to damage/injure The Hulk. phasing is useless as an ends in and of itself, the moment MM rematerialises, he's going to be stuck in The Hulk and will die.
if he tries TP attacks, he may have a limited degree of success but it will likely be at a heavy cost as Hulk will grow stronger and more impervious to such attacks, leading MM to overexertion.
Originally posted by janus77
[B]lol,
the phasing achieved nothing, not even temporary injury. and you think submerging his whole body would have killed him?most likely it would be impossible to do, his body would move/rend whatever matter it was 'phasing' into, but even if it could be done, he gains extra-dimensional matter, what's to say that he wouldn't just regenerate all the tissue he needs? Maestro's comeback from atoms (or thereabouts) so ...
It only achieved nothing because she only phased part of his hands and feet into the ground due to her not wanting to kill him. Being submerged in his entirety would have killed him.
Kitty's phasing is different from Visions. She doesn't alter the density of the objects she's phasing through. She spins the atoms of the thing she's phasing through a medium.
She managed to phase his hands and feet into the ground so that last bit about tearing the medium he's being phased into is moot and speculation. She's phased Thors body waist down into the ground and he had to unfuse himself from it using Mjolnir.
His entire body, organs, blood, his entire nervous system etc would be splinched underground on a atomic level.
To regenerate he'd need a cell intact. If he's being splinched on an atomic level...there isn't any functional cell to allow his healing factor to work.
Originally posted by janus77
regarding the regeneration thing, Maestro did it iirc.as for the phasing, his hands and feet were clearly unaffected, no 'intermingling' between his atoms and those of the material (the ground) he was supposed to have been phased into... more like quick dry cement hardening around his limbs.
Did what exactly regenerated from a single atom?(Issue number?) If that was the case then any time Hulk lost a hair or a toenail or a drop of Blood a new Hulk should be created and as far as I know niether he nor Wolverine are capable of that. The brain is vital for the healing factor to work. If there's no brain there's no healing factor.
He had bits of ground sticking out of the his hands and legs and he was bleeding when he ripped them out. Pray tell how is he going to free himself from being completely submerged and fused into the ground? His brain, nervous system, circulatory system, optic nerves all fused into the ground?
He'd literally be stuck underground.
Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Who said anything about frying his synapses? The Hulk has both subconcious and conscious reflexes. Invulnerability won't protect him from an orgasm attack. It's a different type of telepathy. You're not attacking his conscious thoughts you're going after his passive(secondary) biological reflexes which he has no control over.
The point though is that Hulk's mind works even on an involuntary level to compensate for injury / conditions present. For example he grew the organs necessary to breathe underwater instead of drowning, where he never had those organs before. He also adapted to surviving in outer space. A shrunken character got inside his body before, thinking his organs inside would be soft like a normal human's, but instead they were as impenetrable as his outside was.
In other words when he gains mass and / or density, he does so at the molecular level, it's why he was able to trap a phased Vision inside of his body. Attacks such as attacking synapses and such don't work against the Hulk like they would against a normal mutant, since everything from his molecules, to his nerve tissue, to his endocrine system are all different than that of a regular human's and capable of regrowth from even total collapse. For example he was able to heal his brain stem having been severed, something which even other regenerators would have a hard time doing.
He regenerated his eyes in mere seconds, and regenerated his entire midsection including his spine being blown out, in just a few seconds during his fight with Zom / Strange. A regular mutant might have a hard shell but otherwise have normal organs, it's not so with the Hulk - he's dense both inside and outside his body. Even if Xavier were to literally destroy his entire mass of nervous tissue he could literally regrow it within seconds.
Originally posted by KentoIt might momentarily distract him, but that hero, Trauma, in the Initiative tried assaulting WWH with haunting images and nightmares and WWH basically saw through everything and punked him too. I imagine the same would happen here. WWH would probably get hella angry if J'onn did that.
So what's to stop Martian Manhunter from reading his mind, finding out about his dead wife, phasing under the ground, coming up behind him silently as his wife and calming Hulk down that way? Quick question though..What happened to Betty? And what would happen if J'onn turned into her?
Originally posted by ExodusCloakOrgasm attack? Err... moving along... I don't quite see how a synapse attack would very much differ from a telepathic mind assault or how willpower does not prove to counter it. Care to explain a lil more?
Who said anything about frying his synapses? The Hulk has both subconcious and conscious reflexes. Invulnerability won't protect him from an orgasm attack. It's a different type of telepathy. You're not attacking his conscious thoughts you're going after his passive(secondary) biological reflexes which he has no control over.It's similar to why Sue never made Hulks retina invisible in their encounter which wouldn't have stopped him but it would have been a hinderance. Or why Kitty never submerged Hulk into the ground which would have killed him. WWH would have been over.
Originally posted by ExodusCloakUmm, I think it's reasonable to state that healing factor can work without the brain. Superscience be damned, but people have regenerated without brains and retained their memories. And your difficulty believing that such regeneration could take place when your logic states that multiple bodies should then emerge can be explained by the soul. It's the soul that matters. A person's essence/spirit and that is singular. All the metaphysical mumbo-jumbo going on in Wolverine nowadays is evidence that the soul is important to healing factor.
Did what exactly regenerated from a single atom?(Issue number?) If that was the case then any time Hulk lost a hair or a toenail or a drop of Blood a new Hulk should be created and as far as I know niether he nor Wolverine are capable of that. The brain is vital for the healing factor to work. If there's no brain there's no healing factor.He had bits of ground sticking out of the his hands and legs and he was bleeding when he ripped them out. Pray tell how is he going to free himself from being completely submerged and fused into the ground? His brain, nervous system, circulatory system, optic nerves all fused into the ground?
He'd literally be stuck underground.
And being completely submerged and fused into the ground would suck. Although I think the sheer moment it happens, the pain would affect a torrent of rage and Hulk's gamma energy output would essentially expel and obliterate the intruding mass in an explosion and he'd regenerate thereafter. But this hypothetical is pretty meaningless since J'onn can't do what Kitty can do. This isn't Kitty vs. WWH.
Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Did what exactly regenerated from a single atom?(Issue number?) If that was the case then any time Hulk lost a hair or a toenail or a drop of Blood a new Hulk should be created and as far as I know niether he nor Wolverine are capable of that. The brain is vital for the healing factor to work. If there's no brain there's no healing factor.He had bits of ground sticking out of the his hands and legs and he was bleeding when he ripped them out. Pray tell how is he going to free himself from being completely submerged and fused into the ground? His brain, nervous system, circulatory system, optic nerves all fused into the ground?
He'd literally be stuck underground.
It was Meastro, a future version of the Hulk, that was literally disintigrated and had his atoms dispersed, only to regenerate from it fully. Hulk isn't a mutant, he has been described as a force of nature and seems to have abilities beyond just the physical.
If he was phased into the ground, you would have seen something similar to the end of WWH # 5, except a lot sooner, his gamma radiation would become so powerful from the intense pain throughout his entire body that the ground around him would shatter, and in the process probably kill anybody nearby from having the ground explode. People have tried transmutation attacks before on the Hulk and failed - for example turned to glass, shrunken down, etc. - in each case he was able to undo the transmutation and in the process usually get even more mad.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0Yes but J'onn would be shapeshifting into Ciera or however her name is spelled and it wouldn't be an image and with J'onn's ability to turn intangible he could probably think it is her ghost telling him to calm down and everything. It may work.
It might momentarily distract him, but that hero, Trauma, in the Initiative tried assaulting WWH with haunting images and nightmares and WWH basically saw through everything and punked him too. I imagine the same would happen here. WWH would probably get hella angry if J'onn did that.
Originally posted by Kento
Yes but J'onn would be shapeshifting into Ciera or however her name is spelled and it wouldn't be an image and with J'onn's ability to turn intangible he could probably think it is her ghost telling him to calm down and everything. It may work.
It didn't work when Reed tried to duplicate Sentry's energy, and it certainly didn't work when they tried to make Juggernaut look like Hulk's dad either. The only thing that would do is fool Hulk for a moment, and when he realizes the illusion it would make his anger level go from high to insane, boosting up his strength, durability and regeneration even higher.
Duplicating Sentries energy was dumb on Reed's part just because there may be more to Sentry calming Hulk besides his energy. Also doesn't Banner not like his father along with Juggernaut can't become intangible so Hulk couldn't or at least shouldn't be able to hit J'onn anyway no matter what course J'onn takes to fight him.
[QUOTE=9956382]Originally posted by Kutulu
It was Meastro, a future version of the Hulk, that was literally disintigrated and had his atoms dispersed, only to regenerate from it fully. Hulk isn't a mutant, he has been described as a force of nature and seems to have abilities beyond just the physical.
If he was phased into the ground, you would have seen something similar to the end of WWH # 5, except a lot sooner, his gamma radiation would become so powerful from the intense pain throughout his entire body that the ground around him would shatter, and in the process probably kill anybody nearby from having the ground explode. People have tried transmutation attacks before on the Hulk and failed - for example turned to glass, shrunken down, etc. - in each case he was able to undo the transmutation and in the process usually get even more mad. [/Q]no matter how he was described, we still go by his powers.
First of all, I don't remember anything on panel stating that Maestro had been broken down into his component atoms.
Second, that was the Maestro. Regardless of what the WWH fanboys say, Maestro is the most powerful incarnation of all, due to him being a far-future version of the Hulk, having waded through a radiation drenched world for hundreds of years, and the fact that he is the maddest of all Hulks. he is totally "Mad".
WWh ain't him.
Originally posted by Horrificus
Regardless of what the WWH fanboys say, Maestro is the most powerful incarnation of all, due to him being a far-future version of the Hulk, having waded through a radiation drenched world for hundreds of years, and the fact that he is the maddest of all Hulks. he is totally "Mad".WWh ain't him.
Originally posted by Kento
Duplicating Sentries energy was dumb on Reed's part just because there may be more to Sentry calming Hulk besides his energy. Also doesn't Banner not like his father along with Juggernaut can't become intangible so Hulk couldn't or at least shouldn't be able to hit J'onn anyway no matter what course J'onn takes to fight him.
In regards to Reed duplicating Sentrys energy, yeah it was stupid but it was worth a shot, there was no way for him to predict how Hulk would respond.
In regards to the intangibility thing, Hulk has affected intangible objects multiple times throughout his past, such as grabbing energy fields, grabbing electricity, grabbing Sentrys energy during their fight, and trapping a phased Vision within his body. That means that even intangible, MM could be affected once Hulk got angry enough, which would certainly happen if he tried something like what you mention. Like I said, it's been tried before, and Hulk has found a way to pierce whatever illusion or mind control affects his mind, not just once, but many many times throughout his career.
When you have that long of a history of defeating methods such as what you name, it is considered part of their powerset.
Originally posted by KK the Great
Can we just end the thread knowing that it will continue to follow this singular line of debate?Someone: "[insert absolutely anything here]"
Kutulu: "Wouldn't work because Hulk is great and he has gamma radiation. He's not just physical. He has a counter for everything."
🙄
Originally posted by KentoI agree that there is more to his Hulk calming powers then Reed was able to understand on a scientific level. And if J'onn spent his time intangible it would be a non-fight. The only thing he could do would be to use his Martian Vision and his telepathy. And if he exhausts himself doing the former or gets caught in a psychic backlash in the latter, then he'd become tangible again and become vulnerable.
Duplicating Sentries energy was dumb on Reed's part just because there may be more to Sentry calming Hulk besides his energy. Also doesn't Banner not like his father along with Juggernaut can't become intangible so Hulk couldn't or at least shouldn't be able to hit J'onn anyway no matter what course J'onn takes to fight him.
But I give you credit for trying to think of scenarios where he could win. There's always a way. I think he'd have to be very subtle in his telepathy to affect a win and not try to just mindblast him into submission. Subtlety is the key and why I would even give J'onn 2/10 wins in the first place. I'm trying to think up a scenario, but based on the utter curbstomping WWH laid on Marvel Earth, I'm having trouble thinking of one...
Maybe using his powers, he could tap into the minds of Earth's population, have them each play out the role of Hulk in 'Planet Hulk' in their own minds. Thereby, each person's own unique personality would play out the events differently and this would create a multitude of what-if scenarios. Stands to reason that if a different person were in Hulk's shoes, they might have prevented the tragedies in 'Planet Hulk' by acting differently. Then J'onn could redirect these scenarios at WWH, forcing him to confront the possibility that it was his own fault and the guilt would paralyze him and nullify his rage.
But that'd take a tremendous amount of effort... one J'onn might not be up to the task of accomplishing. I'm still thinking WWH 8/10.
Originally posted by KK the GreatIf you concede that you were wrong about MMH having a chance, sure let's end it. And since WWH did pretty much counter everything thrown at him, I guess you agree with us then.
Can we just end the thread knowing that it will continue to follow this singular line of debate?Someone: "[insert absolutely anything here]"
Kutulu: "Wouldn't work because Hulk is great and he has gamma radiation. He's not just physical. He has a counter for everything."
Originally posted by KutuluGrabbing energy doesn't mean he'd hit something like Kitty or Martian Manhunter while they are phased though. Has he ever hit anybody that was intangible? Energy while may not be able to have people grab them they were physical enough to hurt him while MM and Kitty go through stuff. And J'onn wouldn't be doing an illusion or mind control. J'onn would be his wife and nothing Hulk could do would see through it because J'onn shapeshifts not makes illusions. I don't think J'onn has the speed or strength to beat Hulk but he has plenty of other ways to fight.
In regards to Reed duplicating Sentrys energy, yeah it was stupid but it was worth a shot, there was no way for him to predict how Hulk would respond.In regards to the intangibility thing, Hulk has affected intangible objects multiple times throughout his past, such as grabbing energy fields, grabbing electricity, grabbing Sentrys energy during their fight, and trapping a phased Vision within his body. That means that even intangible, MM could be affected once Hulk got angry enough, which would certainly happen if he tried something like what you mention. Like I said, it's been tried before, and Hulk has found a way to pierce whatever illusion or mind control affects his mind, not just once, but many many times throughout his career.
When you have that long of a history of defeating methods such as what you name, it is considered part of their powerset.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0Sure J'onn staying intangible would be a non-fight but can J'onn turn parts of him tangible to hit Hulk with at different angles just trying to wear him down though J'onn may wear down first I guess. And can he use his MV when intangible? I think more of J'onn playing on Hulk's psych than actually confronting him though and J'onn shapeshifting would probably work better than tech or illusions also. Has Hulk ever fought a shapeshifter that turned into the people that actually think of as friends or have loved?
I agree that there is more to his Hulk calming powers then Reed was able to understand on a scientific level. And if J'onn spent his time intangible it would be a non-fight. The only thing he could do would be to use his Martian Vision and his telepathy. And if he exhausts himself doing the former or gets caught in a psychic backlash in the latter, then he'd become tangible again and become vulnerable.But I give you credit for trying to think of scenarios where he could win. There's always a way. I think he'd have to be very subtle in his telepathy to affect a win and not try to just mindblast him into submission. Subtlety is the key and why I would even give J'onn 2/10 wins in the first place. I'm trying to think up a scenario, but based on the utter curbstomping WWH laid on Marvel Earth, I'm having trouble thinking of one...
Maybe using his powers, he could tap into the minds of Earth's population, have them each play out the role of Hulk in 'Planet Hulk' in their own minds. Thereby, each person's own unique personality would play out the events differently and this would create a multitude of what-if scenarios. Stands to reason that if a different person were in Hulk's shoes, they might have prevented the tragedies in 'Planet Hulk' by acting differently. Then J'onn could redirect these scenarios at WWH, forcing him to confront the possibility that it was his own fault and the guilt would paralyze him and nullify his rage.
But that'd take a tremendous amount of effort... one J'onn might not be up to the task of accomplishing. I'm still thinking WWH 8/10.
If you concede that you were wrong about MMH having a chance, sure let's end it. And since WWH did pretty much counter everything thrown at him, I guess you agree with us then.