Superman vs. Wonder Woman

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
I must also say; I'm made to wonder how you can argue Superman has such great resistance to kryptonite on the one hand, and then argue that Superman [b]near the sun should be so affected by the tiny amount of kryptonite in Batman's ring that it would cancel out all sun-proximity benefit.

Is that what you call "consistency"?[/B]

Nope, that's not consistency. It's also not what I argued. I don't recall my exact wording, but I basically said even under optimal conditions(for the ring) that Kryptonite would have minimal effect. It's other people who argued it would cancel out the Sun. I pointed-out they weren't as close to the Sun as you wish.

But, let me guess, you mixing me up with others is irrelevant?

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Far simpler and more rational to argue, as you are at last beginning to, that different authors have different takes on things, and the composite picture is rarely unified and consistent, so it's exceedingly rare that even a sound argument can be based off these disparate stories.

But the case of Kara's strength 2004 to 2008 is amazing in this regard.
It'd be nice sometime if you actually examined it.

So, basically, it'd be nice if instead of you backing your argument with scans, or even citing feats and showings with issue references, I just read through it all? Considering all the things you've got wrong that I've shown(the Ultraman Kara faced, how much Kryptonite and other stuff Superman endured compared to Supergirl/Dark Kara, their comparative performances), and will continue to show(off the top of my head, your argument for Wonder Woman compared to Superman against Supergirl/Dark Kara), I have a feeling I will come to a far different conclusion than you reading it all.

So, basically, you say it'd be nice if I did your work for you. You know what would be nice? If Bill Gates gave me his fortune. But why should he? Also, why should I do your work for you?

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Your honesty, at least on this particular point, is appreciated.

Will you be honest about all the things I've corrected you on? Or will you find them irrelevant since they don't help you? Oh, and since I didn't get around to this--

Pretty sure I answered this before.
Nearly EVERYONE in the "Power" series arc you're describing (Superman/Batman #19 + Supergirl Volume 5 #1-5) drew blood from Kara after Supergirl #3 began.
But none of those punches discouraged her, did they?
You see exactly ONE on-panel punch from Wonder Woman compared to the multitude of attacks Superman uses, though.
Whose Kara do we directly see challenging after that? (Answer: NOT Wonder Woman's Kara ...)

--it's time to reply. You argue that Wonder Woman is the only one who discourages either Kara, yet you argue she got Supergirl, not Dark Kara. The one who, is, ya know, trying to stop Dark Kara. Hell, when Dark Kara was "freed" her attitude towards Luthor definitely showed she's the more stubborn and defiant one, so that alone makes your argument questionable. But then you say it only took her one punch compared to the "multitude of attacks Superman uses?" Did you even see the fight? Supergirl(since that's who you argue Wonder Woman took) endured even MORE attacks than Dark Kara.

Superman attacked them both. Hit Kara after the switch, got hit by a heat vision beam(as well as Dark Kara) then Superman punched them both. And there's little time between when Supergirl was last punched by Superman before Wonder Woman hits her. But a fair amount of time between when Superman last hit Dark Kara and his final attack. And Superman didn't wind into his attack the same way Wonder Woman did.

http://s1199.photobucket.com/user/Delta1938/library/Superman%20VS--/Heroes/Supergirl/SG-DK

And before that? Well when it comes to hits that seemed to do damage, Supergirl took one more hit in her fight with Dark Kara than the other way around, and Dark Kara's first 3 attacks were definitely more powerful(elbow to the back of the head, head slammed into a wall, knee strike from the clinch). Before that? Supergirl took more damage from Luthor than Dark Kara, but had time to rest and recover and Dark Kara took some damage from her fight with the JLA, so I think that about evens out.

Basically, when it comes down to it, if anything, Wonder Woman was handed a much more worn down Kara than the much more defiant Kara Superman put down. But all of this is irrelevant since it doesn't fit your view of the ladies being >Superman, right?

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
No.

I'm not.

Note that, although WE can tell who's who (by looking at the hair length) the heroes don't have that resource.

In point of fact, Superman attacked [b]both Karas, angering the "Good" one as well as "Dark" Kara. They weren't really sure what either would do.
"Good" Kara would probably not attack Batman deliberately of course, but she physically expressed her anger against Wonder Woman (mistake) and the situation was still tense enough that she was unpredictable as ally or accidental foe.

If you think Batman thought Supergirl would stand back, then you're kinda arguing Dark Kara>Superman/Wonder Woman.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
No.

Assuming you're referring now to Amazo in Justice League of America, Volume 2 #24, you TOOK it that way, and Salsa was honest enough to admit he had actually seen comics where the writer DID offer a phenomenon of that sort, where Hero X defeats Villain A despite Villain A having some or even all of Hero X's strength (Hulk), but that was never my point.

Review that thread and read carefully what I wrote, not what you THOUGHT I wrote, and see for yourself.

You argued it as evidence that Wonder Woman is stronger than Superman, but she never moved Amazo when he resisted. The comic blatantly states that she catches him off-guard, and we see her "tackle" him, not grab him by the throat like Superman did Wonder Woman(since you claimed what Diana with Amazo was similar to what Superman did to Wonder Woman, but it's not). The only time it actually WAS similar to what Superman did was when Amazo had her helpless by the throat.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
That was only one of [b]several theories that Batman had about Kara, though. Refer to Superman/Batman #19 a.k.a. Supergirl #0.

And you were already honest enough to admit you have no explanation for why Batman pulled out the kryptonite ring after that scene.

To me, that's easy to understand.

Note how perfectly this meshes if Kara actually WAS stronger than Superman, and Batman knew testing that out would likely lead to a VERY dangerous and unpredictable situation.

Even if Batman thinks she's stronger, it doesn't mean she is or the writer does. Refer to the scans of their comparative performances against Luthor, under the same writer.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Supergirl was exposed to Black Kryptonite as well as Green.
Superman only had the one type to contend with.

Has Superman had a situation where he too was exposed to both kinds of radiation? If not, the cases aren't comparable.

Already covered. Superman was exposed to far more, had fought a lot more as the radiation grew stronger, had energy drained, and was blasted by Captain Atom channeling his energy through the Kryptonite ring, right after Superman had momentarily weakened from everything beforehand. Supergirl on the other hand took much less and you would have to prove that the black Kryptonite had any negative effect. Which, considering Dark Kara's performance against Luthor compared to her performance against Supergirl, doesn't seem to be the case, unless Supergirl suddenly became a better fighter after being hit by black Kryptonite. But this is all irrelevant, right?

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
On the other hand, even pretending they are, ignores that, while one half of Kara went down, the other half Kara, "Dark" Kara got up and beat the crap out of Luthor, going so far as to throw him from ... what? Low Earth Orbit? All the way to the Moon. And beat a hasty retreat after that, by the way.
(Supergirl #4, Volume 5.)

You are right that they're not comparable, but not in the way you think. But even if we pretend Superman wasn't far more effected, he faced Luthor protected by a force field and slugged it out, overcoming the field and breaking the armor. Dark Kara on the other hand fought smarter against a Luthor NOT protected by the force field, so even if we pretend they were about equally weakened(instead of Superman being much more effected), Superman still comes-out looking superior. But that's irrelevant too, right?

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
I covered this point just a few paragraphs above.

And yes, in general, I DO believe actions speak louder than words.

Which is part of why I don't believe Superman's Supergirl #5 speech.
Especially not given everything else that happens in, around, and after that particular comic, both in that fictional world and without.

What actions? The fights with Luthor where Superman comes-out looking physically superior to Supergirl or Dark Kara? Supergirl beating down an Ultraman whose only feats are two losses to Supergirl? Ya know, under Loeb, Superman also looked better than Darkseid, and yes without hauling Darkseid into space, although it's less definitive than the Luthor fights.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Might be a good idea to post one of Loeb's interviews here.
They are, unfortunately, very hard to find now.
I'll likely post the text after this message.

For now, though, here's a link to one of the more famous ones I remember:

http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&old=1&id=4651

That interview only says that she might be. Since, ya know it's about a year before SUPERGIRL#5, why would him saying she might be mean a damn thing if his goal is just to make it look like she is? Loeb had many things contradicting your belief before and after SUPERGIRL #5 and outside lip service, the examples are pretty weak.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Again, Supergirl was exposed to TWO kinds of Kryptonite, not one, both Black and Green.

Again, prove the black Kryptonite had any weakening effect. The skill gap between Supergirl and Dark Kara should be borderline Karate Kid level considering their comparative performances against Luthor if Dark Kara really was weakened to the degree you're arguing, and their fight sure as heck did not show that much a gap.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Interestingly, as an aside, when Superman was split into two parts (Red and Blue) few if any suggested that either of the Supermen was the equal in strength of what Superman himself was before the split. With Kara, people automatically assume either half had the strength of the whole.

Why? Don't know.

Interesting to observe, however ...

I'm going to guess this is just ranting in general, but I might as well chime in.

Considering Superman in those days was an energy being, and split via comic science methods, where Dark Kara was separated by a strange form of Kryptonite that only seemed to do that, it seems more likely that splitting an energy being in half would be more likely to weaken one that having your "dark side" unleashed via vague methods.

But I don't really think either case they were weakened. In fact, it's ironic you brought that comparison up, since Cyborg-Superman owned Superman Blue(like Luthor did Supergirl), tried to kill them with I think it was Toyman's machine(similar to Luthor apparently trying to kill a defeated Supergirl with black Kryptonite that he got from Darkseid), then we get Superman Red, the more aggressive personality of the two energy Supermans defeated Cyborg-Superman pretty easily by fighting smarter(like Dark Kara, the more aggressive personality, fighting smarter against Luthor).

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
I was a Supergirl fan, not a Superman fan.
I got that Superman issue (Volume 2 #223) because Supergirl was in it.
So, no, except for what you show me, I've had no exposure to, or true reason to expose myself to, the rest of that arc.

It never occurred to you that citing something from a storyline you only read ONE issue from was a bad idea as there could be context or something that came back to bite you in the ass? You didn't even add a disclaimer that you only read one issue. Being a Supergirl fan and not a Superman fan is not an excuse, it's just a reason for me to shake my head at you. I mean, you didn't even think of, "Just a note, I only read one issue of this." Aren't you a college professor?

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Thank you for admitting that.

See above.

And will you admit to the numerous things you were wrong about? Just a few off the top of my head, you citing Supergirl beating the wrong Ultraman than you compared to Superman, you arguing the cold and heat exposure in the fight with Genocide was some great improvement considering what happened Pre-2003, or your comparing Wonder Woman tanking a nuke as some big improvement over almost being killed by an Imperiex Probe in OWAW. At least, I'm assuming that's what you meant, since you asked along the lines of, "Could OWAW Wonder Woman survive the nuke?"

And there's numerous others. Or are these all these now irrelevant?

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
You don't know this. In point of fact, when Blackrock first tries that draining assault on Superman, it is invisible, with no physical manifestation.
No ray of black, no sparkly lights, nothing.
In fact the only attack we see at first is Superman's heat vision, attacking Blackrock. Consistent with her absorbing and/or turning that very energy against Superman. Examine my scan at the end of this post.

No, it wasn't invisible. It was just really small, I figure between it just starting and the distance the view is from Superman. I enlarged, cropped and highlighted the panel the best I could to show. I assume Photobucket puts a cap on resolution size because I enlarged it to UltraHD resolution, but it's much bigger in MS Paint than on Photobucket. Should still be big enough to see.

I figure though that you'll start writing up a drawn out, long-winded wall of text to make excuses about the art to say this isn't what I'm saying it is. Or maybe even that it's irrelevant, since it doesn't support your argument.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
It makes perfect sense to suggest she DID try the assault against Supergirl, and found that she could not, that Supergirl's energy or strength was too great for Blackrock to reverse or do that to. Note that such would perfectly explain WHY Blackrock would make the statement that Supergirl is stronger than Superman, when Kara had not really gotten physical with Blackrock before that point.

Or, maybe, ya know, Lucia didn't even TRY with Supergirl. All that happened is Supergirl blasted her with heat vision, punched her a few times and grabbed her. The Blackrock is very sensitive to emotional state of the host, and Lucia seemed scared.

On the "You're stronger," ya ever think it was just a did a more powerful blast of heat vision and Lucia lost confidence? Blackrock hosts have varied in power and Superman knows this, and is far more cautious than Kara. What if Superman just did a relatively weak bast to gauge Lucia? Of course Kara wouldn't have the same restraint as him even if she hadn't beaten him.

So, unless you have anything solid, you're simply making an assumption that falls into circular reasoning. "Supergirl is more powerful than Superman because Lucia couldn't drain her." "Why couldn't Lucia drain her?" "Because she's more powerful than Superman!!"

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Don't know what you think I'll be doing with them, but I thank you for giving the scans of these Blackrock fight.

Oh, I dunno, maybe it's because you have a history of at best being incorrect but push things due to your feminist views and hatred of Superman, to maybe even blatantly lie? I mean you really got that leg press video wrong, or one. Arguing Supergirl beat Ultraman who wasn't the Ultraman you compared to Superman. And that's even worse considering that you argued against Superman one-shotting Bizarro because he looked different. It's entirely possible that Ultraman could decide to wear a different costume, but it was completely different than the costume of the Ultraman you compared to Superman, so that should've set-off a red flag(but it's not the different costumes I'm arguing makes him different). Or, other stuff.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
I was actually thinking when I saw this that this is reminiscent of Spider-Man fighting the Lizard atop a train back in the 60s.
It was the issue right before he battled The Shocker for the first time.
He was limited to one arm, the other in a sling, because he had sprained it from Lizard knocking him off a building back in New York.
He managed to anger and trick Lizard into following him into a REFRIGERATOR CAR, and then kept Lizard angry and off balance enough for the cold to do its work on Lizard's unique, semi-cold-blooded physiology.
Liz became so weak that he collapsed on his own, IIRC.

Brilliant strategy and resourceful use of environment to advantage. Typical of Spider-Man, who consistently fought more powerful people than himself.

Not something I really expect from Superman.

Nice to see he's capable of that kind of action in extreme emergencies, too.

Superman is very resourceful. He normally doesn't need to be though. Would be nice if you'd actually read him. And yes, this is mocking you for basically saying I should do your work for you.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Your knowledge likely does not include the contents of Superman/Batman Annual #5, then. Dark Supergirl and Richard Grayson-Batman versus Doomsday and Cyborg. If I have some extra time, I'll post the relevant scene/explanation for you.

Hold-up. That example is from 2011. You're always arguing until 2008 for Kara, instead of going off actual canon. It's clear to me that you're only making these arguments of timelines for Supergirl and Wonder Woman because you're doing whatever you can to make-up for your lack of evidence. But this? Maybe you've got other examples, but you specifically bring-up an example from 3 years after the timeline you argue. So, it's looking like not only do you make-up all these rules to compensate for your lack of evidence, but you don't appear to even follow your own rules when they don't work for you. So, I guess you see it all as arbitrary. I'm only playing by your rules to beat you at your own game, because you're wrong even under your own argument, but you damn better follow your own rules if you're going to keep arguing your unsubstantiated BS.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Not particularly.

Anything I know of such an encounter would have come from you and Salsa.

I don't own that book myself.

You tried to argue against it as an example of Superman's superiority over Supergirl.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Possibly. Supergirl was split into 2 halves for series other than Loeb's "Power" arc, oddly enough. One half was in the future, the other remained in the past (or present, depending on how you look at it).

See above. Half of Kara was in the future, half was in the past, all throughout her Legion adventures. Whatever split her THAT time, which was separate from the Black Kryptonite splitting episode of Supergirl #4, seems to have been traumatic enough to cause her amnesia and think she was dreaming for a good portion of her stay. She didn't even know how she GOT to the future.

I've got to review and see how she ever discovered the answer, assuming she ever did, for I really don't recollect how that was resolved right now, only that "I'm dreaming you up!" was a big motif of that series lending just the right touch of suspense to an otherwise sunny arc. There was always the possibility that Kara might actually hurt someone, though innocently, thinking that none of what she was seeing was real or of consequence ...

This was from an issue of ACTION COMICS, far as I can tell under a different writer. You have a tendency to argue examples only under the same writer, until it suits you. Will you change that here?

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Hope you enjoyed it.

The enchiladas were tasty. I'm making tacos today. I love Mexican food.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Interestingly, Sacrifice demonstrates that, even in a murderous rage, Wonder Woman CAN take Superman's heat vision, and apparently does so at more than one point. Indeed if that advert someone alluded to before, of Rucka having in mind the view that Superman's heat vision lessons in intensity after high level usage is true, it makes perfect sense that during the middle stages of an average fight, Diana can even "tank" heat vision, as she apparently does here.

Let's take a look-see. Here, the white Martian Tronix one-shot Wonder Woman with Martian Vision.

Although Diana didn't get here, Superman stated to J'onn that he could've killed her when Malefic(who nobody was aware of at the time) had blasted at her when he was framing J'onn.

Also, she pretty much had warning there. So it's not some reflex feat to dodge it. Now Blue, I know what you're going to argue. That this was before 2003 where Wonder Woman allegedly got a power-up. But, between your lack of any examples that she had one(meaning a plot that proves she was upgraded in power) and your faulty arguments of taking Genocide into space and the reentry(you unaware she's taken this cold and heat before and been fine) and the faulty comparison of the nuke tanking to almost dying from Entropy energy in the Imperiex Probe blast, I don't think you actually have anything to prove these examples are irrelevant.

But you know what? JLA #111 is from 2004, definitely in the time frame you argue Wonder Woman allegedly had a power-up. Ultraman one-shot her with his heat vision. And it's not like she wasn't aware of Ultraman, even if not as prepared as she could've been.

And, as I showed before, post-SACRIFICE that Superman one-shot as a SIDE EFFECT of his heat vision. And the examples I showed before, like him cutting Shaggy Man's body which tanked Orion's Astro-Force blasts(I doubt you'd argue Wonder Woman could tank the Astro-Force, unless Orion was REALLY holding back), or one-shotting an Above Top-Tier like Despero. So, either Rucka has a low opinion of Superman's heat vision, or Superman wasn't really trying very hard. Ether way, the heat vision Diana endured was weak sauce. There's no getting around it.

But ya know what? If you go by that interview of Superman's heat vision lessening over time, then that means you have to concede that Superman wasn't amped by extra solar energy like you argue. If Rucka thinks Superman's heat vision lessens with use, and had intended for Superman to be near the Sun giving him an amp, then the lessening with use wouldn't matter as he'd have been replenished there if not have more being close to the Sun, if he really were like you keep arguing.

But, she didn't tank anything. She dodged it, clearly because Superman was aiming at the much larger Doomsday. It's clearly above her shoulder and just to the right of her hair(unless you think she'd be hurt by her hair singed) But YOU came to believe she tanked it, so this doesn't matter in regards to you trying to spin and counter my point about Rucka having heat vision lessen meaning there was no amp.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Likewise noteworthy, assuming either point blank dodging OR "tanking" of Superman's heat vision, is that Diana is able to effectively counterattack during or immediately after that assault in Sacrifice, even though by this point she is injured and fighting the pain of a broken wrist:

Yes, because Superman was fighting like an idiot and thought he was facing Doomsday. She dodged the heat vision when he was aiming at a bigger target who doesn't always dodge attacks(note I said "doesn't always"😉. If Superman were aware of who he were actually fighting, he could've reacted and countered before being kicked. It's not like we haven't seen him embarrass her in regards to speed in a fight before.

And REALLY? Are you too making a big deal about her fighting with a broken wrist? I'm not saying it'll HELP Wonder Woman, but a broken wrist is really pretty weak argument if you think it'll significantly hinder her. If you're just bringing it up because you think it'll cause an effect even if minor, you should specify. Superman's fought through far worse than a broken wrist.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
The general matchup suggested in this thread isn't dependent solely on Sacrifice.

Rucka's story suggests Wonder Woman can survive the most murderous physical force Superman can randomly land on an opponent, including a 180 haymaker and heat vision to the face near the sun, but this also has to be factored against the likelihood of Superman successfully zapping her in the first place.

No, it does not. You like to dismiss the AOS example of Superman stating he wanted to make Doomsday suffer. Well, you didn't bring-up the "faulty memory" argument until well after the evidence had been presented to you. Your weak attempt at a counter was it wasn't in the primary SACRIFICE storyline, and it wasn't cited by Rucka in the interview(perhaps it wasn't important or he didn't want to reveal it?). If you had brought-up the "faulty memory" argument immediately, that WOULD have been a valid argument. But you did not. So this is you coming-up with an excuse to dismiss something you already decided you weren't going to accept. Thus, Superman wanted Doomsday to suffer before dying.

(CONTINUED)

And no, they weren't near the Sun. I already pointed-out one more example that if you accept the lessening heat vision, that means Rucka did not have them near the Sun. And really, your only counter argument has been Wonder Woman's statement that he's going to take her to the Sun. That's all you really have, as they're too big compared to the Sun to be as close as you're arguing. There's no statements by Diana or Maxwell of increased power, or confirmation they were near the Sun. The metal box didn't melt, but that's not really a big thing, just one little detail amongst others.

Basically, your argument is based on Wonder Woman stating Superman's intent before she used eye gouging and a knee to the groin to stop him. If you think that intent is proof, then you'll want my autograph, because tomorrow I intend to be the first to be a champion in both the UFC and GLORY(the biggest kickboxing promotion today). And because I said that's what I'm going to do, that's all the proof needed, right? Or.....is this irrelevant?

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
I can be convinced the fight could progress to a grappling match and Superman successfully vision her once they lock arms. Much harder to convince me he could score without her being immobile. As suggested earlier, Wonder Woman has good reflexes and, in her common, worn-nearly-all-the-time gear, bracers , which can easily deflect and/or redirect any laser/concentrated light assaults.

Or, he could just beat her unconscious with relative ease. It's not like Superman hasn't one-shot opponents on-par or superior to her with his punches. It doesn't mean he'll always one-shot her, but there's more than enough to prove he definitely can, and can beat her rather easily with a relatively low number of blows if he's serious. And that's not counting SuperBats or that chick cursed by Zeus, both of which have one-shot her with Superman's power.

The thing is, Wonder Woman's either faced him when he wasn't serious, or circumstances mentally handicap him so he doesn't perform to the best of his abilities despite being angry. Superman has feats and showings Wonder Woman just can't compete with.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Note that she demonstrates the ability to deflect such shots even when caught by surprise:

And she's been hit even when she wasn't caught by surprise. Her being capable of dodging or blocking it doesn't mean she'll do it every time.

And, since we're here, I thought I'd show another comparative example for Superman/Supergirl under Loeb.

Abhi had already posted what I had in mind, so I'll just quote him since you have him on Ignore.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Yeah, look how strong Supergirl looks compared to Superman here, just after her "fight" with Superman.

Superman pulls Darkseid out of the source wall.

It needed Supergirl, Power Girl, Cir-El and pre crisis Supergirl to pull out Superman out of the source wall.

http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/16076089/Superman_Batman_25-01.JPG.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/16076090/Superman_Batman_25-0203.JPG.html

And Bizarro directly said she wasn't strong enough to do it on her own.

So I call BS on Supergirl even being as strong as Superman, let alone stronger. As for Wonder Woman, she said directly that Superman was the strongest player they had in Action Comics 818.

She said the same thing in AOS 642 and she directly said she was as strong as power girl who we all know is weaker than Superman in 2008. Heck, Gail Simone who was the primary writer of Wonder Woman said that she was weaker than Superman.

😬

I know Blue you tried to counter this arguing Suprgirl did it by herself, and how many panels it took Superman to do it. But if Kara did it by herself, why did she ask if the other Supergirls were ready? They were clearly working together. Due to the amount of help, your argument of Kara doing it in "one panel" is really pretty dumb.

And Blue, what evidence do you have to think that Supergirl or Wonder Woman, in the eras you claim they're superior to Superman, could take on an Above Top-Tier like Despero or Darkseid and go toe-to-toe with them? Superman's done it, more than once. Anything along the lines of "If Superman did it they can too" is unacceptable as it's a circular argument.

I want examples, I don't want you to dodge me on this. If you don't have scans available, give the issue references and what happened and I'll post the scans. I know there's a lot to reply to here, but I don't want half-assed responding to just part of my posts. I'm not going to give you the excuse of saying "Oh I missed it." Take your time. Go ahead and tell me if you're going to take your time to reply. Use a word processor to save like I did(I did individual pages to make sure each post was within the posting limits). I'm sure I miss things you'd like me to reply to, but I do make an effort to reply to everything you write. You on the other hand have a history of ignoring things repeatedly brought to you.

Originally posted by Rao Kal El
There, there big bad RAO will talk about this with letters that unlike YOU he has the balls to do a bz.

Is it Quanny has less balls than Letters, or isn't as dumb?

Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe
Yes, it was legal and quan even admitted defeat, back then he had more honor then now and didn't pretend it wasn't a loss. He took it like a man.

So Quanny had a pair at one point?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I think you have a mental disability which makes you incapable of saying "Superman Wins"

That would be a specific disability on top of his general disability.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
You're referring to A League of One, a story written in the year 2000.

Even ignoring the fact that the League members die if Diana beats Superman at that point in the script, Wonder Woman saying that 5 years before Sacrifice means nothing to me.

League of One Wonder Woman would be unable to beat her 2005 self, her Sacrifice self, and likely her 2003 incarnation, let alone the powerful hero we see by the year 2008.

http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/JLA:_A_League_of_One

Actually, Diana saying anything like that would mean little to me even now.
She has a habit of saying things that turn out not to be true, even in regards to her own power, which she doesn't seem to understand much better than the average person.

That's been true from 1994 all the way to and through 2010, incidentally, with Diana not understanding how strong OR how physically tough she is in either era, really:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=13989127
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=13986236

Considering Diana had no problem KOing the other JLA members, it's quite clear to me she made that plan due to an inability to defeat Superman. Not because if she did, the rest of the JLA would die. Her plan came BECAUSE of an inability to beat Superman.

Your arguments of the timeline really fall short. You keep saying Wonder Woman's been upgraded since, but your arguments have so far been based on faulty information. You had previously argued she was more durable because she survived molten metal compared to the future ROCK OF AGES example of her dying from fire taken from the Firepits Of Apokolips. That fire is a lot more potent. You cited taking Genocide into the upper atmosphere and reentry heat, yet she has examples of taking both(or comparable, even worse examples) before 2000, making this argument irrelevant. You appeared to compare her taking a nuke to almost dying from that Imperiex Probe, yet the energy from the Imperiex Probe is far, far more powerful. So, if that's what you had in mind, this argument is also irrelevant. You really need more than assumptions. You haven't even provided anything of a storyline where Wonder Woman was powered-up.

The rest doesn't really matter, as the statement was made after her performance. It simply reinforces the fact that Superman casually handled her in A LEAGUE OF ONE. If the statement was by itself you'd have a point. But it was not. And it's not the only example, including after, that proves Superman's superiority over Wonder Woman, including the timeline you claim, but haven't provided any hard evidence, that Wonder Woman is stronger than Superman.

Originally posted by Delta1938
Is it Quanny has less balls than Letters, or isn't as dumb?

So Quanny had a pair at one point?

That would be a specific disability on top of his general disability.

Originally posted by Delta1938

Go ahead and tell me if you're going to take your time to reply.

You gave a LOT to reply to.
We'll see. But you in turn need to defend some things.

For starters:

Originally posted by Delta1938

... you have a history of at best being incorrect but push things due to your feminist views and hatred of Superman, to maybe even blatantly lie? I mean you really got that leg press video wrong, or one.

1. What exactly do you think I got wrong about that video?
2. Where have I "blatantly lied" about anything?
3. Where have I ever said I hated Superman?
4. What in the world makes you think I'm a feminist?

I want you to take on #3 head on. No hedging.

This is what you wrote:

Originally posted by Delta1938

Lack of evidence, stated preference for female characters, showing to back that preference, stated hatred for Superman ... I highly doubt it ...

Show me where I've ever on this forum stated hatred for Superman.

Else man up and admit you're making up my ever having said that.

Originally posted by Delta1938

I'm sure I miss things you'd like me to reply to, but I do make an effort to reply to everything you write.

Indeed. Don't miss #3 above.
I want to see my so-called "stated hatred" for Superman. Quote me.

Originally posted by Delta1938

... I do make an effort to reply to everything you write.

Or at least most things. THAT I will give you credit for.

I will go even further and say that MOST of the time, because you have proven willing to post scans that undermine or contradict your arguments, you've shown greater integrity than 7 out of 10 of most of my opponents on KMC.

It's very easy to advantage of the reality that other people have fewer resources to bring their argument to the table than you do.

I respect the fact that don't normally allow yourself to hide behind that fact, will supply the other side of things when requested.

No matter how heated our discussion or discussions may or may not get from this point on, I want you to know I genuinely appreciate that particular trait of yours.

And I always have.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
You gave a LOT to reply to.

There was quite a bit for me to reply to, too.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
We'll see. But you in turn need to defend some things.

For starters:

1. What exactly do you think I got wrong about that video?

I had a feeling you posted it without knowing what was going on. The range of motion. Did you notice how her legs barely go down? You can do a lot more weight only partially doing the exercise. Still impressive for a girl barely in her teens, but you incorrectly presented it. Likely from not understanding it.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
2. Where have I "blatantly lied" about anything?

You misunderstood me, but I probably could've presented it better. I can't know for sure if you're lying about things as opposed to simply believing something that's incorrect. But there's always the possibility, especially based on things you've done before that aren't very honest.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
3. Where have I ever said I hated Superman?

Maybe I'm misremembering your exact wording, but when your bias against Superman was shining through and you accused the fans. In my book, people are either using "the fans" as an excuse to bash or lowball a character but it's really the character they hate, not the fans. Or they're just really weak minded people. I've never let hate of fanboys and fangirls make me hate a character. I'd have to find the thread it was in. I believe you were replying to me.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
4. What in the world makes you think I'm a feminist?

A combination of things. Your preference for female characters, your constant arguing of Supergirl and Wonder Woman>Superman despite lack of evidence. The way you make these rules to support your belief despite you generally failing to provide evidence and you not even following your own rules to support them. The double standards you used to demean Superboy Prime. I've come to believe your constant attacking of Superman isn't just the character, but a problem with male characters.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
I want you to take on #3 head on. No hedging.

I don't know what you would say is "hedging," or at least what you would now due to my response, but I gave you an honest answer.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
This is what you wrote:

Show me where I've ever on this forum stated hatred for Superman.

Else man up and admit you're making up my ever having said that.

Indeed. Don't miss #3 above.
I want to see my so-called "[b]stated hatred" for Superman. Quote me. [/B]

Found it.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
The bulk of what you're calling my "hate" is not for the fictional character but the way supposed "fans" of Superman conduct themselves on this board and in other places.

I honestly don't buy the "it's the fans, not the character" BS people use as an excuse. Accept this answer or don't.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Or at least most things. THAT I will give you credit for.

I will go even further and say that MOST of the time, because you have proven willing to post scans that undermine or contradict your arguments, you've shown greater integrity than 7 out of 10 of most of my opponents on KMC.

It's very easy to advantage of the reality that other people have fewer resources to bring their argument to the table than you do.

I respect the fact that don't normally allow yourself to hide behind that fact, will supply the other side of things when requested.

No matter how heated our discussion or discussions may or may not get from this point on, I want you to know I genuinely appreciate that particular trait of yours.

And I always have.

Thanks, I guess.

What's up Delta? How's everything?

Originally posted by carver9
What's up Delta? How's everything?

😒 OFF TOPIC!!! 😠 😛 PM me.

I'm not buying the "it's the fans not the character" statement either, Delta. I mean... consider Thanos. The Thanos fanboys are notoriously the worst and most rude of all fanboys but that doesn't make me like Thanos ANY less. He's still one of my favorite villains regardless of how his fanboys/fangirls behave.

Originally posted by Star428
I'm not buying the "it's the fans not the character" statement either, Delta. I mean... consider Thanos. The Thanos fanboys are notoriously the worst and most rude of all fanboys but that doesn't make me like Thanos ANY less. He's still one of my favorite villains regardless of how his fanboys/fangirls behave.

Superman's fanboys are far worse. The only thing that rivals it, is the Superman haters.

Originally posted by SquallX
Superman's fanboys are far worse. The only thing that rivals it, is the Superman haters.

🙄

Originally posted by SquallX
Superman's fanboys are far worse.

LOL. You must be living in an alternate reality (like "Wonderland" from the Alice movie) from mine.

Originally posted by Delta1938

The range of motion. Did you notice how her legs barely go down? You can do a lot more weight only partially doing the exercise. Still impressive for a girl barely in her teens, but you incorrectly presented it. Likely from not understanding it.

I find it ... interesting ... that this comment of yours did not come in the week where you first watched and acknowledged this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=apzAUaeLQF8

It comes after many days and the following posting, part of the only exchange made in over 30 days from what I can tell:

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Reply

CMSTech
4 days ago

Its not even half a rep
Reply

View all 3 replies

bain racing
4 days ago

Stick to [Information Technology (IT)] champ, you clearly no nothing about the Biomechanics of the body, but I'm giggling much like you probably do when you see half the Idiots trying to make their way around a problem on a computer, and I'm sure your smart enough in your industry to see that most of what people do when it comes to PC's is wrong, just because the masses do something a certain way doesn't make it right! Right?

I know my IT guy laughs at me all the time! but at no point would I think I was an expert capable of giving advice just because I use a computer everyday??? Or does it? I have Australian lifting records and the Studies in biomechanics and personal training and have had the pleasure to work with some legends over the years, so please don't comment on something you no nothing about, as nearly all Olympic teams around the world have been using P/ROM and TUT for well over ten years.
It really shows your arrogance, so please stop being a sheep and educate yourself in this area if you want to have an option and not just come off like a keyboard warrior.
Reply
·
CMSTech
4 days ago

How stereotypical of you to classify me with geeks, making a joke about how you are giggling like i would over idiots making their way around a problem on a computer. I did not read the description on the video and now realise that you are unable to do a full rep for your own safety, thats an honest mistake and i apologise. However, this does not give you the right to judge and say that i know nothing over this topic and to 'stick to IT'. I go to the gym very regularly and come from a family of bodybuilders and i have managed to leg press 520lbs for 4 sets of 12 continuously and considering i am only 15 this isn't so bad. Although i am not a genius on this subject, i feel as if i know a decent amount about muscle training and fitness. I understand how you are frustrated but i think that you should know a little but about me before you call me names such as a keyboard warrior, when i am far from it and do know what i am talking about.
Reply

CMSTech
4 days ago

And i happen to know A LOT about science and the muscles in the human body so you were wrong there as well.
Reply
·
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😬

Got to say, Delta, I really, REALLY hope that "boy" is not you, posting as if you were some 15 year old. Then again, I'm not sure it would be much better if you were merely being convinced to "fight" by some 15 year old commenting on a girl who presses more than him.

Originally posted by Star428
LOL. You must be living in an alternate reality (like "Wonderland" from the Alice movie) from mine.

Actually am not.

On this site Superman's fanboys are one of the worse, and you're one of them.

There's barely a few Superman fans here that's not bias.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
I find it ... interesting ... that this comment of yours did not come in the week where you first watched and acknowledged this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=apzAUaeLQF8

It comes after many days and the following posting, part of the only exchange made in over 30 days from what I can tell:

No, I guess I wasn't blunt enough when I first brought up the context.

Originally posted by Delta1938
Of course there's exceptions, but you're not really aware of context for her and others.

I guess you didn't catch it? Should I just tell you from the start instead of trying to get you to ask?

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Reply

CMSTech
4 days ago

Its not even half a rep
Reply

View all 3 replies

bain racing
4 days ago

Stick to [Information Technology (IT)] champ, you clearly no nothing about the Biomechanics of the body, but I'm giggling much like you probably do when you see half the Idiots trying to make their way around a problem on a computer, and I'm sure your smart enough in your industry to see that most of what people do when it comes to PC's is wrong, just because the masses do something a certain way doesn't make it right! Right?

I know my IT guy laughs at me all the time! but at no point would I think I was an expert capable of giving advice just because I use a computer everyday??? Or does it? [b]I have Australian lifting records and the Studies in biomechanics and personal training and have had the pleasure to work with some legends over the years, so please don't comment on something you no nothing about, as nearly all Olympic teams around the world have been using P/ROM and TUT for well over ten years.
It really shows your arrogance, so please stop being a sheep and educate yourself in this area if you want to have an option and not just come off like a keyboard warrior.
Reply
·
CMSTech
4 days ago

How stereotypical of you to classify me with geeks, making a joke about how you are giggling like i would over idiots making their way around a problem on a computer. I did not read the description on the video and now realise that you are unable to do a full rep for your own safety, thats an honest mistake and i apologise. However, this does not give you the right to judge and say that i know nothing over this topic and to 'stick to IT'. I go to the gym very regularly and come from a family of bodybuilders and i have managed to leg press 520lbs for 4 sets of 12 continuously and considering i am only 15 this isn't so bad. Although i am not a genius on this subject, i feel as if i know a decent amount about muscle training and fitness. I understand how you are frustrated but i think that you should know a little but about me before you call me names such as a keyboard warrior, when i am far from it and do know what i am talking about.
Reply

CMSTech
4 days ago

And i happen to know A LOT about science and the muscles in the human body so you were wrong there as well.
Reply
·
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😬

Got to say, Delta, I really, REALLY hope that "boy" is not you, posting as if you were some 15 year old. Then again, I'm not sure it would be much better if you were merely being convinced to "fight" by some 15 year old commenting on a girl who presses more than him. [/B]

.....are you accusing me of being a 15 year old pretending to be formally educated in biomechanics and saying I'm 15 which would make that education claim questionable?

WW still barely wins.

Originally posted by quanchi112
WW still barely wins.

When pigs fly.