I'm an athiest, but i hope that i'm wrong

Originally posted by BackFire
That's the whole point of religious beliefs, though -- comfort and peace of mind, it's pleasing to think that when you die there is more, that you will meet all of your lost loved ones after you die, that there is a God who will make everything make sense after you die and who loves you and all that, so people believe in it.

No I cant prove for 100 percent that there is an afterlife, but that statement is downright insulting. It could well be argued that the whole point of religon is to believe that there is more tp physical reality and it doesnt neccesarily have to with making yourself happy.

Religons may believe in heaven but they also believe in hell as well.

Originally posted by Bardock42
🤨

That makes no sense whatsoever. Humans are defined by their conscioussness as well as a few other traits, those weren't existant before you were born (well, some time during the pregnancy of your mother), so "you" were indeed nothing. That the atoms that would create you one day existed already is of no matter. As that is not the point.

So....HA. 😐

So what IS the point?

Originally posted by The big EH
i'm a hardcore athiest and i, i'm terrified of the thought of dying and there being nothing that i cant function, thas why i hope there is something else, i hope that god exists so much, but every inch of me sees no logical way how that is possible, i cant believe in him, i sorta wish i could but its just a gut feeling i cant deny, its eaing me alive. i wanna know, how do you believe in god and heaven and hell, and how athiests cope with the thought of death. death is just something i've never been able to cope with i cried like a baby when my mom explained the concept cause i started thinking about the blackness, nobody i've ever talked to has ever understood this, the way i think about death scares the absolute shit out of me

Man searches for a logical universe that makes sense, but the truth is that the universe is always one step ahead logic

Dude, if you're "scared" then convert. ermmsrug

Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
So what IS the point?

Originally posted by Boris
That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard.

So you're only good and do no wrong because you think you'll be punished in an afterlife? Is that the only reason you don't go around killing people?

What about instead of doing good and being good to get rewards, you do it just to be... erm.. nice?

Originally posted by chillmeistergen
A great example of the selfish side of religion, so many people are only inspired to be 'good' due to he reward of an after life and lots of fluffy clouds.

Originally posted by The big EH
i'm a hardcore athiest and i, i'm terrified of the thought of dying and there being nothing that i cant function, thas why i hope there is something else, i hope that god exists so much, but every inch of me sees no logical way how that is possible, i cant believe in him, i sorta wish i could but its just a gut feeling i cant deny, its eaing me alive. i wanna know, how do you believe in god and heaven and hell, and how athiests cope with the thought of death. death is just something i've never been able to cope with i cried like a baby when my mom explained the concept cause i started thinking about the blackness, nobody i've ever talked to has ever understood this, the way i think about death scares the absolute shit out of me

Man searches for a logical universe that makes sense, but the truth is that the universe is always one step ahead logic

There is a place for everyone 🙂

Originally posted by leonheartmm
no1 is born with any knowledge of a creator. this can be easily proven by studying people born in enviornments not concerned with theism and just how much {completely}, your nurture determines what beleif you adhere to. selfishness and pride have NOTHING to do with it, if anything it take courage and humbleness to not consider yourself special, containing a soul, having a higher purpose, having an immortal soul, being CHOSEN on the right path as opposed to other people, having a spiritual protector and promise of ultimate justice.

What I meant by humbling oneself delt with commitment to God--in effect to have a relationship with God--instead of living as one wishes without consequence; this has nothing to do with feeling special--to highten ones persona. Such notions are self-imposed, and are often (more times than not) triggered by selfishness and/or pride. I think you are oversimplifying my statements; affirming a transcendent creator and belief in life after death--being a soulish creature--are knowledge that man is inherently born with. Environments and cultural upbringing do not teach such terms; I remember as a child pondering these things, but no one taught me this. It just came naturally, and I think all mankind experiences this mechanism; to what degree depends on the persons evironment and cutural upbringing. The thought of a transcendent creator and life after death--being a soulish creature--was present at birth. How can you deny this?

Originally posted by leonheartmm
as for those who blame god and not the envionment, its simple. as long as their loved one was not taken away by their OWN actions, than hte CREATOR of the world around them{god} is responsible for it. it makes perfect sense.

Exactly, but this directly (or indirectly) affirms knowledge in a transcendent creator! People don't get frustrated and/or angry with Santa Claus or the Flying Sphagetti Monster; because mankind, inherently, has no connection to them. They are false.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
atheists do not use TOOLS to validate their philosophy, it is infact THEISTS which have to use tools to validate their illogical beleifs. their is nothing illogical about atheism as there is nothing illogical about people who do not beleive in the invisible purple unicorn.

When people assume belief in a transcendent creator, they are assuming belief in something that surpasses life in the physical realm. Purple unicorns are comprised of testable "physical" attributes. Having belief in purple unicorns--in light of scientific and historical evidence--would be most absurd. Do you see the difference?

Originally posted by leonheartmm
it is indeed lack of evidence and presence of evidence AGAINST the relegion that leads people away from it. and please tha last part is a disproven assumption, no1 is DENYING god. if that were true, then why are you so sure that its YOUR god that is the one true god? makes no sense.

I respectfully disagree; all man is inherently conscience of a transcendent creator; if someone wishes to be intellectually lazy and ignore what they know naturally--that there is indeed something transcendent of life itself--than that is their choice; but despite what people of this caliber profess, they all know that a transcendent creator exists. That is precisely what I believe there is no such thing as an atheist--just people having a hard time managing the truth. When push comes to shove--namely death--the atheist will face the music. This has happened time and time again. My grandfather professed to be an atheist all his life; but on this death bed, he expressed faith. He was in denial his entire life, but not in this last days.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
but maybe you shud also try to be open minded about the possibility of atheists being partially or compleely right in their stance. science and theology CAN be very complex but even the simpler ones end up generally denying christianity/judaism/hinduism/islam etc. that is enough.

I became a Christian about 5 years ago. God Himself, science, and history lead me into faith. With all in mind, as I studied, it became apparent, that all atheists ever provided were philospohical arguments, and that lacked persuasive power in the long run. To me, the arguments were fueled by emotion, not evidence.

Aside from this, just to make a general statement about theology: having God incarnate in the flesh to give a living account, then to sacrifice Himself (as to ensure eternal life) was beautiful to me; on a deep level--on that I cannot put my finger on--it filled the void. A void that no on taught me to feel and/or experience. I was born with it, and I think that all man--to whatever degree--is born with these very feelings and experiences that I speak of.

That is the human condition, and it is not taught and governed by the environment. Where does that come from? And why is it present? All humans need are food, shelter, and the ability to procreate, right? For so many in the world, these things provide material to survive in life, having nothing to do with "living" life--to feel alive! Are you and I to assume, that we humans--despite our human condition--yearn for nothing?! I find that hard to swallow, and so do atheists.

Check out this thread--a little Q & A--that I opened that questions how humans experience life.

www.killermovies.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-467745-naturalism-v-theism.html

The above link to a thread is needlessly dualistic ushome, and attempts to cater to your viewpoint in the way you phrase the questions and choices.

Anyway, I'm shocked Pascal's Wager hasn't been mentioned in this thread yet, given the subject, but I also realize that the wager's premise is rather juvenile when analyzed and generally only appeals to those who already believe in some eternal torment and think everyone else should too.

Also, to whomever is advocating simply deciding to believe, I'd challenge you to arbitrarily start believing in Santa Clause again. You might say you believe, you might go through the motions of beliefs (cookies and a letter, perhaps) but my guess is that you couldn't literally convince yourself to believe in him. For the majority of atheists, or even agnostics with a particular religion's deity, it's the same thing.

And to suggest that there isn't proof for either side doesn't justify belief, because if it did it would justify any belief at all, including Santa Clause or even more preposterous ideas. Claiming lack of proof might be objectively true, since all reality is a subjective experience, but it denies that we can know certain things based on logic and reasoning. The earth revolves around the sun, for example...objectively impossible to prove, but reasonable to accept as fact based on all known evidence and observations. The same is true of theism/atheism...no known claim of theists is backed by observed or observable evidence. If they're right, it's pure dumb luck, not anything having to to with the validity of their belief systems. Like Bardock said, it's hardly the coin flip scenario that the "no proof" argument seems to endorse.

....

Also, there's no ingrained sense of a creator hardwired into humans. It's culturally inherited, either from parents or the world around us. To suggest otherwise is nothing but fanciful speculation with no logical foundation.

Originally posted by DigiMark007

Also, to whomever is advocating simply deciding to believe, I'd challenge you to arbitrarily start believing in Santa Clause again. You might say you believe, you might go through the motions of beliefs (cookies and a letter, perhaps) but my guess is that you couldn't literally convince yourself to believe in him.

For the majority of atheists, or even agnostics with a particular religion's deity, it's the same thing.

That really depends on what you believe some people believe that all possibilities exist within reality. They may not be able to prove that Santa Claus exists but they do believe he exists. eg parallel universes, astral plane

Originally posted by DigiMark007

And to suggest that there isn't proof for either side doesn't justify belief, because if it did it would justify any belief at all, including Santa Clause or even more preposterous ideas. Claiming lack of proof might be objectively true, since all reality is a subjective experience, but it denies that we can know certain things based on logic and reasoning. The earth revolves around the sun, for example...objectively impossible to prove, but reasonable to accept as fact based on all known evidence and observations. The same is true of theism/atheism...no known claim of theists is backed by observed or observable evidence. If they're right, it's pure dumb luck, not anything having to to with the validity of their belief systems. Like Bardock said, it's hardly the coin flip scenario that the "no proof" argument seems to endorse.

Think I would agree with that.

Originally posted by DigiMark007

Also, there's no ingrained sense of a creator hardwired into humans. It's culturally inherited, either from parents or the world around us. To suggest otherwise is nothing but fanciful speculation with no logical foundation.

Well it could be argued that there is no ingrained sense of atheism either.

How will people define reality when we can download our brains into computers? It seems to me that the more advanced we get the more difficult it will be to define reality.

I dont belive in Creatonism but it seems to me in the future it wont matter wether you can scientifically prove that the earth is more than 6000 years old when a persons reality will be able to be changed so easily.

Originally posted by The big EH
i'm a hardcore athiest and i, i'm terrified of the thought of dying and there being nothing that i cant function, thas why i hope there is something else, i hope that god exists so much, but every inch of me sees no logical way how that is possible, i cant believe in him, i sorta wish i could but its just a gut feeling i cant deny, its eaing me alive. i wanna know, how do you believe in god and heaven and hell, and how athiests cope with the thought of death. death is just something i've never been able to cope with i cried like a baby when my mom explained the concept cause i started thinking about the blackness, nobody i've ever talked to has ever understood this, the way i think about death scares the absolute shit out of me

Man searches for a logical universe that makes sense, but the truth is that the universe is always one step ahead logic

Originally posted by DigiMark007
The above link to a thread is needlessly dualistic ushome, and attempts to cater to your viewpoint in the way you phrase the questions and choices.

Anyway, I'm shocked Pascal's Wager hasn't been mentioned in this thread yet, given the subject, but I also realize that the wager's premise is rather juvenile when analyzed and generally only appeals to those who already believe in some eternal torment and think everyone else should too.

Also, to whomever is advocating simply deciding to believe, I'd challenge you to arbitrarily start believing in Santa Clause again. You might say you believe, you might go through the motions of beliefs (cookies and a letter, perhaps) but my guess is that you couldn't literally convince yourself to believe in him. For the majority of atheists, or even agnostics with a particular religion's deity, it's the same thing.

And to suggest that there isn't proof for either side doesn't justify belief, because if it did it would justify any belief at all, including Santa Clause or even more preposterous ideas. Claiming lack of proof might be objectively true, since all reality is a subjective experience, but it denies that we can know certain things based on logic and reasoning. The earth revolves around the sun, for example...objectively impossible to prove, but reasonable to accept as fact based on all known evidence and observations. The same is true of theism/atheism...no known claim of theists is backed by observed or observable evidence. If they're right, it's pure dumb luck, not anything having to to with the validity of their belief systems. Like Bardock said, it's hardly the coin flip scenario that the "no proof" argument seems to endorse.

You'd rather have people live in fear and depression that believe in religion? That's insane.

If believing in Santa Claus or Cuthulu or Aketesh The Nine Headed Snake God of the Seas is comforting to you then that's what you should believe in, evidence be damned. It's unhealthy on many levels to avoid it.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
Also, there's no ingrained sense of a creator hardwired into humans. It's culturally inherited, either from parents or the world around us. To suggest otherwise is nothing but fanciful speculation with no logical foundation.

And that isn't? 😛

Originally posted by Alfheim

Well it could be argued that there is no ingrained sense of atheism either.

Agree...

commitment to God

Originally posted by Bardock42
No he doesn't.

It's not like it is a 50-50 thing. Atheism is so way more likely that once you understood that, you will never be able to just switch on believing in God.

So, to answer your "why", Backfire, at least for me it is hard or almost impossible as I arrive at my conclusions through logically thinking about a topic, since...that just doesn't work with theism, I can't suddenly start believing that, cause even if I'd pretend to, my trust in science and logic would still tell me it isn't true, so it wouldn't be beliefing at all, but faking.

Kinda like what Christians do every day anyways.

Has nothing to do with "understanding" anything. It's just something you believe. You say "understand" as if there is something legit and substantial to back it up, though you've presented nothing of the sort.

And why is it not possible that you can't arrive to a theistic conclusion through logical thinking? It's completely doable, and again, it's based purely on your subjective perspective, someoneisn't illogical for coming to the conclusion that they feel there is a God. Poor logic can be used to come to either conclusion, and good logic can be used to come to either conclusion.

I understand that if you deeply believe in something, it isn't going to be easy to change that belief, I presented my point improperly in my first post by suggesting such. However, if your beliefs are causing you such discomfort, as they are with the OP, then changing the beliefs so that you can be happy may be something worth considering, or trying, at least.

Originally posted by Alfheim
No I cant prove for 100 percent that there is an afterlife, but that statement is downright insulting. It could well be argued that the whole point of religon is to believe that there is more tp physical reality and it doesnt neccesarily have to with making yourself happy.

Religons may believe in heaven but they also believe in hell as well.

I don't know why you'd be insulted by that, you shouldn't be. Yes, religions believe there is more to physical reality, and why do they believe that? Because it brings them comfort and satisfaction, thinking that goodness awaits them after death. Like I said, I sincerely believe that everyone believes in whatever makes them happy and satisfied and bring them comfort.

Yes, they believe in Hell, but EVERYONE also believes that they aren't going to hell. No one who believes in Hell thinks that that's going to be their destination, it's just a way for them to justify their belief, and punish others who don't believe in what they do, which again, probably brings them happiness and satisfaction, which is admittedly sad and pathetic on their part.

Originally posted by Alfheim
That really depends on what you believe some people believe that all possibilities exist within reality. They may not be able to prove that Santa Claus exists but they do believe he exists. eg parallel universes, astral plane

Um, ok. But I'm not talking about them. I mentioned the majority of atheists/agnostic, not the minority of New Age thinkers who might belive such things.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Well it could be argued that there is no ingrained sense of atheism either.

...which I never argued for either. In bringing down one position, it doesn't mean I'm automatically assuming the opposite. That would make me an ID apologist or something.

31

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
You'd rather have people live in fear and depression that believe in religion? That's insane.

If believing in Santa Claus or Cuthulu or Aketesh The Nine Headed Snake God of the Seas is comforting to you then that's what you should believe in, evidence be damned. It's unhealthy on many levels to avoid it.

I'm completely at a loss as to how you twisted my message to make it seem like I'm advocating fear and depression.

Your assumption seems to be that not believing in a deity is inherently depressing, or that there's more to fear. Personally, I'd fear more from an omnipotent creator who sets arbitrary and vague guidelines for his people to follow and threatens them with eternal damnation for not following them. Quite an ornery small-minded God, if you ask me.

If you can't logically get yourself to believe in something, how comforting would it be to do it anyway? If my well-being depended on me believing in Santa, I might try but I would still fail, and even if I succeeded I'd be believing a lie. The truth is its own end in many situations, and usually isn't a negative thing (especially in the case of religion).

I understand that if you deeply believe in something, it isn't going to be easy to change that belief, I presented my point improperly in my first post by suggesting such. However, if your beliefs are causing you such discomfort, as they are with the OP, then changing the beliefs so that you can be happy may be something worth considering, or trying, at least.

*puts headphones on*

I want to be a cowboy, and you can be my cowgirl

Ya know, Ted gets sooooooo dirty. 😖hifty:

Originally posted by DigiMark007
I'm completely at a loss as to how you twisted my message to make it seem like I'm advocating fear and depression.

nvm

Originally posted by DigiMark007
Your assumption seems to be that not believing in a deity is inherently depressing, or that there's more to fear. Personally, I'd fear more from an omnipotent creator who sets arbitrary and vague guidelines for his people to follow and threatens them with eternal damnation for not following them. Quite an ornery small-minded God, if you ask me.

Why would you believe in a god like that? People have been creating personal philosophy forever (hence my example of the nonexistent Aketesh the Nine Headed Snake God). Established religion is simply one manifestation of comforting philosophy and it does not, as people seem to assume, involve living in fear.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
If you can't logically get yourself to believe in something, how comforting would it be to do it anyway? If my well-being depended on me believing in Santa, I might try but I would still fail, and even if I succeeded I'd be believing a lie. The truth is its own end in many situations, and usually isn't a negative thing (especially in the case of religion).

Aren't we talking about the OP? He's afraid of death because he doesn't believe in an afterlife.

He doesn't have to believe in a god but it would almost certainly be good for him to believe in an afterlife of some sort.

Originally posted by Deju-vu
Ushomefree, why would god need a commitment?

This thread has certainly received a lot of posts. I addressed statements that leonheartmm presented, and I was waiting for a response; but all the posts on this thread have congested the topic. Its hard to keep up with, as you all know as well. In any case, Deju-vu, in terms of Christian theology, God does not require commitment. The post that you quoted me from delt with humbling oneself to God--to be committed and to live to for God, as opposed to living for oneself. In all fairness, perhaps you misunderstood my post? The quote that you posted--in conjunction with your question--is out of context. Again, God does not require commitment. Commitment, amongst other things, are by products of faith in God; the believer will make efforts to live a life pleasing to God. Biblical Christians--not that you think differently--make such sacrifices out of love, not fear. If Christians do, they have completely underminded the works of Jesus the Christ.

Originally posted by maham
Being a believer in Islam,I can say that I do not fear death as much as u cuz I like many other believers of other religions I believe in an afterlife.

THis life simply can't be it.This world is a cruel and there are many ppl who get away with the bad things they do in this life and the injustice they do to others and most of the times,they get away with it.Does that mean those ppl who died bcuz of injustice will never get justice?Will their culprits never be punished?Ofcourse not.N the One who'll punish them is God.

Also,if u don't believe in an afterlife,then ther remains no reason y any1 shud do good n why any1 should refrain from wrongdoing at all.I stop myself from many bad things cuz I know they'll be harmful for me in the Hereafter n do many good things cuz I know I'll be rewarded,if not in this world then the next 1.

That's not the only logical way to prove God's existence.The existence of God is the most logical thing there is.For everything,there has to be a creator n for this universe,which has the most complex things,from microscopic organisms to the gigantic heavenly bodies floating around in space.U can't just say that everything came into being on it's own.u simply can't deny His existence cuz u can't see Him.

All I can say to you is😖top fearing death bud.If u've remained good in ur life,u shouldn't have anything to fear.This life is precious n it is given only once,but that also doesn't mean that u should do something ur creator does not want u to do.

you are the biggest idiot i have EVER met. you believe that because some people are wicked they will get punished? your ideals are laughable. this is the REAL world. not the bible, not the quran, not the torah. there is no rhyme or reason to why things happen. they just do. and there's no devine justice or being waiting at the end. we do what we do, we are what we are.

btw I CAN deny his presence because i cant see him, because guess what? thats what LOGICAL people do. i cant see it, smell it, touch it, detect it, or find any proof he/it existed? what does that mean children? IT ISNT THERE.

why we should do good or bad? because of A: your morals B😛unishment by your peers or C: a reward for good deeds. if you need a god to do whats "right" then you sir are an empty being.